Cathay Pacific Asia Miles - Question for CX Diamonds

Hi Everyone,

I have a question for CX Diamond and Diamond Plus members.

I am currently an ANA Diamond, and typically fly on paid business class fares to Asia 6 times per year. Sometimes, I do 7 or 8 return trips. I live in Canada. As an NH Diamond, I receive so many bonus points and miles, that I am able to easily upgrade to first most of the time. I have been very happy with their service.

The problem is that I live in Canada and ANA does not fly to Canada. Additionally, the YYZ-HKG-BKK CX routing is extremely convenient and shaves hours off my transit time. I have flown CX J and F, and I really like their F product.

If I were to switch to Cathay, with their system of mileage accumulation, I would have to fly 30+60+120= 210K miles, to hit Diamond initially (a lot). Is it worth it? Would I get frequent operational upgrades, or have enough miles and points to upgrade to F on the YYZ-HKG segment most of the time? I am trying to decide whether Cathay has a generous FF programme and whether they treat their diamonds really well, or not. ANA does, and so I am concerned that I would be making a mistake by switching. Are there other significant benefits to being a diamond member?

I have reviewed comparison charts on the Flyertalk site, but cannot find a clear answer to this question. As such, your input would be most appreciated.

Thanks,
FF

If I were to switch to Cathay, with their system of mileage accumulation, I would have to fly 30+60+120= 210K miles, to hit Diamond initially (a lot). Is it worth it?[/B]
IMHO, yes, I switched from UA to CX years ago and I am glad I did.

Would I get frequent operational upgrades, or have enough miles and points to upgrade to F on the YYZ-HKG segment most of the time? I am trying to decide whether Cathay has a generous FF programme and whether they treat their diamonds really well, or not. ANA does, and so I am concerned that I would be making a mistake by switching.[/B]
CX treats DM really well. I am not YYZ-based, but in general, don't count on operational upgrades. I doubt if there are too many DMs in YYZ though. CX does NOT have a generous mileage programme. There is no tier bonus, but there can be promotions from time-to-time. If getting upgrades is your main consideration, MPC may not be a good programme for you.

Are there other significant benefits to being a diamond member?
There is one main benefit, and that was the reason I switched from UA to CX - seat guarantee. I can book or change J/Y flights (booking classes JCYBHKMLV) on CX and Y (booking classes YBHKMLV) on KA on 24-hour notice. There are other benefits, but they are not too important to me.

Op-ups on CX for DM are relatively frequent. And yes, they do treat DMs a whole lot better, especially during cancellations/delays etc. and onboard.

Go with CX, you'll like it.^

of course, if your question is whether you'll still be getting confirmed upgrades to F all the time, it's probably a no. I looked at this ANA program a while ago too...

I think ANA gives Diamond a 125% mileage bonus, MPO gives Diamond 0%; for flights of the distance to US/Canada, ANA probably costs you ~45-50k miles to upgrade each flight to F? MPO/AM is 60k oneway, 105k roundtrip (a bit higher burning rate than ANA). so in a sense with ANA you're earning more than double the miles to burn, and burning it at a lower rate.

with ANA you also get 40+ upgrade points to use per year - you probably can get at least 2-3 roundtrips confirmed upgraded to F each year with these, in addition to the 125% (J) + 125% (Diamond) = 250% miles you get ?

also ANA Diamond has no mileage expiration; while MPO Diamond still has miles expires in 3 years.

but, of course, as others mentioned, as DM there's a good chance you can get upgraded to F, and use your miles to upgrade the other flights if you want to, so you might still be sitting always in F, BUT, then you'll probably be left with no miles for other awards. while for NH, I think you should still have a big pile of miles with no expiration after you easily upgrade all your flights to F with upgrade points or the 125% bonus miles. but of course people might value CX F vs. NH F differently. also if you're doing this comparison you should be prepared to be sitting in CX J from time to time, depends on how much you like the CX new J product (some people like it a lot, some people hate it).

YYZ-HKG on CX is one of the busiest/most full routes. Chances are, you will probably get frequent op-ups. Not guaranteed, but if it means shaving off a significant amount of time in transit, I say go for it. Personally J in CX is great for me, and 15 uninterrupted hrs of time to sleep/watch movies cannot be beat IMO. And yes, they treat diamonds very well (I'm not one but many of my friends are). But one thing they do not have is a very generous FF program for rewards. But for me the positives outweigh the negative...

You will not be able to upgrade yourself very frequently J-F with the miles you accumulate. In addition to op-ups only happening for true operational reasons...aka an overfull cabin...(which, as posters have rightly pointed out frequently happen on that route. Yet that's hardly a guarantee it will continue in the future, and it seems Y-J is far more frequent than J-F on that route given the high Y traffic), on a miles basis alone you've probably done the math it's not very good. There are also no SWUs and certs. CX does a good job of protecting the integrity of the premium cabins by basically making you have to pay for it to really be assured of it.

So I guess it depends how you define what is valuable to you as a DM. Even without the sure-thing of an upgrade, I think CX service has improved drastically over 2007 and they usually (not always...but usually) make your life quite comfortable and easy as a DM.

Another option would be to use AAdvantage as the FFP.

Another option would be to use AAdvantage as the FFP.

What for? CX DM has a much, much better chance of getting J -> F op-up using CX. With AA...not a high priority.

Hi Everyone,

I have a question for CX Diamond and Diamond Plus members.

Thanks,
FF

If your main concern is upgrades then CX is not for you as they are very frugal on upgrades, but to many here that is a good thing to protect the integrity of the premium classes. You will only get priority if they are overbooked, and if your company is already buying you J then the chance of you getting bump from J to F is very very slim.

Having said that, HKG-YYR-HKG is a very busy route, and my friend that only buys Y gets upgrade from time to time, but again, J - F is tough.

Thanks for the great info guys. Still more opinions and analysis on this issue would be appreciated as well.

I feel really unsure about this decision. To clarify a couple of points above, I do think that the ANA programme is very good. It is not as generous as it was a couple of years ago. For example, it is now 15 ugp to go J-F one way which means the 40 they give you for being a diamond, gives you only 1 return trip upgraded. However, you can get more ugp depending on how much you fly beyond the required 100K requalification amount. So if you fly a lot you could easily get 3 or even 4 one way upgrades.

ANA prices its first class at a higher price point than Cathay, but if you are a diamond member, there are many ways to get into the cabin with a business class fare: miles (plenty given as described above), ugp, or op-ups (very rare). I think the cabin integrity is still maintained though because it is really only the ANA diamonds and paid customers who have easy access to F. On the ORD-NRT route, the cabin is seldom full.

From my perspective, there are 2 big advantages to switching to CX: shorter flight and transit times (substantially) and not needing to clear US customs in both directions (just an extra unnecessary step for me). In terms of the product itself, I actually like them both when it comes to F, equally, for different reasons. The CX seat is nicer, but the catering and graciousness of the staff is higher on ANA. Cathay has great service too, but my preference is for ANA in this regard. And I really like the fact that I can almost always fly F while buying J, without having to hope for an op-up. On both airlines, I find the difference between J and F to be large.

On a recent CX flight (HKG-YYZ), there were only 2 of us in F, and the FA told me there were 6 free seats in J and about 8 free in economy. There were NO op-ups at all, even though having a 3rd passenger in F would not have been a problem to either of us, I'm sure. So I agree that op-ups are probably uncommon, as is often the case on Asian carriers.

With the AA programme, would I accumulate a massive amount of miles which could be used to redeem free F tickets on Cathay? How hard is this to do? If I were a Diamond Plus member, would the op-ups be almost automatic?

FF

With the AA programme, would I accumulate a massive amount of miles which could be used to redeem free F tickets on Cathay? How hard is this to do? If I were a Diamond Plus member, would the op-ups be almost automatic?
yes, with AA's program you can get a lot more miles, and yes, those can be redeemed for CX F. with AA you can get 100% elite bonus, and often awards with AA miles are "cheaper" than with CX miles - e.g. for HKG-YYZ in CX F, it would cost I think 220k CX miles (and that means 220k of flying, excluding any bonuses, credit card points, etc, for simplicity) vs. you can get the same for 135k AA miles (and that means <70k of flying since you get 100% bonus). so you could say it's like a 3x difference.

but (1) it's relatively easy to get J/F awards now, but if you think the economy will pick up again soon, then it's probably much harder getting CX J/F awards with AA miles vs. CX miles (esp being DM/DMP) (2) AA miles can't be used to upgrade CX flights.

even for DMP - I think they're upgraded only when the cabin they're booked in is full (but of course they get higher priority than normal DM).

in fact, another thought - if you're doing mostly YYZ-HKG-BKK v.v., have you thought about buying tickets ex-BKK instead of ex-YYZ ? would it be (quite a bit) cheaper ? maybe you can then just buy F tickets and not think about upgrading ?

Thanks for the great info guys. Still more opinions and analysis on this issue would be appreciated as well.

With the AA programme, would I accumulate a massive amount of miles which could be used to redeem free F tickets on Cathay? How hard is this to do? If I were a Diamond Plus member, would the op-ups be almost automatic?

FF

If upgrade is your thing then AA is the route to go. They give free miles like crazy and free upgrade coupons, etc. Also, AA miles can be redeemable to CX flights (did that for my dad once, J class) and pretty much AA is upgrade heaven compare to Asian airlines.

Hi guys,

With my ability to pick any flights I want now I can easily do 120K a year with CX. I wanted to ask, why CX DM? What makes CX DM unique that makes you say yes, over against other airlines (Asian and American?) Finally, I know this is posted to death but are the "undocumented" benefits real or just fantasy?

Thanks

Hi guys,

With my ability to pick any flights I want now I can easily do 120K a year with CX. I wanted to ask, why CX DM? What makes CX DM unique that makes you say yes, over against other airlines (Asian and American?) Finally, I know this is posted to death but are the "undocumented" benefits real or just fantasy?

Thanks

I arrange all my business meetings before booking my flights. I know I will get on my desired flights. I can make changes on my itinerary almost freely. Isn't that good enough?

I did not see upgrade availability on Asia Miles, but when I called MPC, I got four upgrades confirmed while I was on the phone, and I was only the sponsor, not even one of the passengers. Was that good enough?

If upgrade is your thing then AA is the route to go. They give free miles like crazy and free upgrade coupons, etc. Also, AA miles can be redeemable to CX flights (did that for my dad once, J class) and pretty much AA is upgrade heaven compare to Asian airlines.

Uhm, he flies YYZ - HKG, which AA doesn't fly. Even YYZ-NYC-HKG is impossible because AA flies to LGA from YYZ but JFK to HKG.

So upgrading on AA is useless. And if he enrolls in AA, he can get tons of miles but the benefit of being a CX member is gone. In the end I believe his choice is ANA or CX, not AA.


From my perspective, there are 2 big advantages to switching to CX: shorter flight and transit times (substantially) and not needing to clear US customs in both directions (just an extra unnecessary step for me).

To me, these are HUGE advantages. I really don't like going through the US - unnecessary hassle and going through visa waiver/rescan carry-ons/etc. 15 hours straight of sleep on flat-bed is way more preferable.

Plus, if you fly via ANA that means you have TWO transits - once in the US, then once in Japan. Why would you choose this over a direct flight??? I'd be perfectly happy in CX J (with at times upgrades to F) if it means saving myself all the hassle of *two* connections.

And why not Air Canada, since they are an ANA partner?

If upgrade is your thing then AA is the route to go. They give free miles like crazy and free upgrade coupons, etc. Also, AA miles can be redeemable to CX flights (did that for my dad once, J class) and pretty much AA is upgrade heaven compare to Asian airlines.

Careful! The conclusion here isn't correct. You cannot upgrade a paid J ticket on CX with AA miles I don't think. You are right you get a ton of free stuff, but assuming the OP wants to potentially FLY on CX and the option is to consider just USING AA's program, then this won't work. Because all those certs and miles can't be used for upgrades on CX metal. True, you can buy full F award tix for a much cheaper threshold....but not for upgrades.

+1 to QRC3288. You may use AA miles on CX metals if and only if they are AA code share flights.

+1 to QRC3288. You may use AA miles on CX metals if an only if they are AA code share flights.

I think AA miles can be redeemed on most CX/KA routes, regardless of whether codeshares exist.

I think AA miles can be redeemed on most CX/KA routes, regardless of whether codeshares exist.

...but not for upgrades, which is what Cathay Boyis talking about

...but not for upgrades, which is what Cathay Boyis talking about

Yes, but I was replying to Sam7 on whether redemption could only be on codeshare flights.

Well, I reply to QRC3288...My mistake that I didn't repeat what he said... I also meant upgrade redemption......

Well, I reply to QRC3288...My mistake that I didn't repeat what he say... I also meant upgrade redemption......

I thought AA miles can only be used to upgrade on AA marketed and operated flights only.

I thought AA miles can only be used to upgrade on AA marketed and operated flights only.
Guess I am wrong then ;)

Back to the topic: in my experiences, having DM status is great as I've just grabbed 3 upgrade awards, HKG-FRA return, for me and my parents in December which is a busy period and I guess not very easy to get without the status. Besides, MPC call centre DM dedicated line is also awesome. Last but not the least, guarantee seat is wonderful. In my opinion, it's all worth it...

Careful! The conclusion here isn't correct. You cannot upgrade a paid J ticket on CX with AA miles I don't think. You are right you get a ton of free stuff, but assuming the OP wants to potentially FLY on CX and the option is to consider just USING AA's program, then this won't work. Because all those certs and miles can't be used for upgrades on CX metal. True, you can buy full F award tix for a much cheaper threshold....but not for upgrades.

If you want to be picky then what you said isn't 100% correct either. If the OP buys CX flight under codeshare (thus CX metal but paying AA instead), then he can easily use AA miles for upgrade. So yes, you CAN upgrade a paid J ticket on CX with AA miles as long as you buy it under codeshare.

Most of my collegues are AA EXP, I know the AA program.

If the OP buys CX flight under codeshare (thus CX metal but paying AA instead), then he can easily use AA miles for upgrade. So yes, you CAN upgrade a paid J ticket on CX with AA miles as long as you buy it under codeshare.

I see. An AA agent told me differently, but that was years ago. Perhaps I misunderstood.

If you want to be picky then what you said isn't 100% correct either. If the OP buys CX flight under codeshare (thus CX metal but paying AA instead), then he can easily use AA miles for upgrade. So yes, you CAN upgrade a paid J ticket on CX with AA miles as long as you buy it under codeshare.

Most of my collegues are AA EXP, I know the AA program.

If I am not mistaken, the ability to use AA miles on for upgrades on CX-operated flights disappeared years ago. (Unless you can point me to the appropriate page on AA.com which says otherwise.)

What for? CX DM has a much, much better chance of getting J -> F op-up using CX. With AA...not a high priority.

As others have pointed out, you earn more miles with AA and for award tickets you spend fewer miles than you would with AsiaMiles. I will grant that op-up priority is not as high with AA elite status (though the OP should easily get EXP) as it would be for a CX elite DM or DM+, but it is not nil either.

If you want to be picky then what you said isn't 100% correct either. If the OP buys CX flight under codeshare (thus CX metal but paying AA instead), then he can easily use AA miles for upgrade. So yes, you CAN upgrade a paid J ticket on CX with AA miles as long as you buy it under codeshare.

Most of my collegues are AA EXP, I know the AA program.
maybe you should check with your AA EXP colleagues again to see if they have indeed done what you have described...I don't think AA miles can be used to upgrade CX-operated flights at all, no matter AA or CX code.

As others have pointed out, you earn more miles with AA and for award tickets you spend fewer miles than you would with AsiaMiles. I will grant that op-up priority is not as high with AA elite status (though the OP should easily get EXP) as it would be for a CX elite DM or DM+, but it is not nil either.

Yes, but OP isn't asking for award miles - he wants upgrades to F. And as said, you can't use AA miles to upgrade a CX flight. And his route, YYZ-HKG, is not a codeshare. So all the AA/CX codeshare stuff is irrelevant because it doesn't help his cause.

If you want to be picky then what you said isn't 100% correct either. If the OP buys CX flight under codeshare (thus CX metal but paying AA instead), then he can easily use AA miles for upgrade. So yes, you CAN upgrade a paid J ticket on CX with AA miles as long as you buy it under codeshare.

Most of my collegues are AA EXP, I know the AA program.

Get your facts straight. This is completely wrong. You cannot upgrade on CX using AA miles, period.

Get your facts straight. This is completely wrong. You cannot upgrade on CX using AA miles, period.

I did got it straight and it's been done. My colleague bought a AA codeshare Y ticket with Cathay, used miles to upgrade himself to J.

Sorry, but it's done.

I am glad that my thread has sparked a lively discussion and debate. Further contributions would be greatly appreciated as well.

Just to clarify a few things from the comments above:

1. Since I live in YOW, it is 2 transit points anyway: with CX it would be YOW-YYZ-HKG-BKK and with NH, it would be YOW-ORD-NRT-BKK. However, it is much faster and easier to go with CX since I avoid the American customs thing, as well as the unpredictable nature of short flight cancellations into and out of Chicago during bad weather.

2. I do not take AC because I had too many bad experiences with their service in J. I used to be a SuperElite and after feeling badly treated, I switched. I am much happier now.

3. I am primarily interestd in flying between Canada and Asia, on a carrier with top notch service (therefore preferably an Asian carrier), and if possible in F. Therefore, the AA programme would give me free CX flights, but I can't use any of their upgrade features.

4. From what you all describe, a central 'power' feature of being a diamond is that you get on flights whenever you want seats, even last minute. This is indeed an excellent feature suited to last minute business travellers, particuarly premium passengers who need to jet across for an important closing... I am not one of those customers. I do fly a lot (150-200K per year) but almost all of it is planned at least a month in advance, and often 2 months. I seldom change the date last minute and my local professional commitments do not permit too many changes. Therefore, this feature of the diamond membership is not useful to me.

So unless there are other features I don't know about (quite possible), the benefit of CX to me would be shorter transit times and avoidance of US customs, and the benefit of NH would be much more generous upgrades.

For me this is a really tough call. The transpac F experience on Asian carriers is really nice, even if you have done it many times before. However, as we all know, long flights with transits can be exhausting, no matter how you do it and so shorter times can make a big difference.

I still don't know...

FF

I did got it straight and it's been done. My colleague bought a AA codeshare Y ticket with Cathay, used miles to upgrade himself to J.

Sorry, but it's done.
and the miles here is indeed "AAdv miles" ? what kind of Y ticket - full fare or discount, which sub-class ? and when was this ?

if this were indeed true, it's definitely one of the biggest surprises none of us here knew about before...and would make me credit more of my future miles to AAdv instead of MPO/AM...

4. From what you all describe, a central 'power' feature of being a diamond is that you get on flights whenever you want seats, even last minute. This is indeed an excellent feature suited to last minute business travellers, particuarly premium passengers who need to jet across for an important closing... I am not one of those customers. I do fly a lot (150-200K per year) but almost all of it is planned at least a month in advance, and often 2 months. I seldom change the date last minute and my local professional commitments do not permit too many changes. Therefore, this feature of the diamond membership is not useful to me.

To be exact, there is no seat guarantee for F, and seat guarantee for J/Y requires 24 hours notice. In your case, if you need to do an upgrade on a CX flight, a DM status will be helpful as CX may release a redemption seat to you early on. However, the burn-earn ratio is so bad that you may get enough miles for an upgrade about once every five round trips on J.

I am glad that my thread has sparked a lively discussion and debate. Further contributions would be greatly appreciated as well.
For me this is a really tough call. The transpac F experience on Asian carriers is really nice, even if you have done it many times before. However, as we all know, long flights with transits can be exhausting, no matter how you do it and so shorter times can make a big difference.

I still don't know...

FF

Well, if your Cathay route is frequently overbooked then the chance of you getting upgraded is very high for DM, however, if you're already booking J then the chance of J to F is not that high, although it does happen if J is full as well so they need to push J to F to make room for Y to J.

@FlyingFish: I looked at the numbers. Assuming starting from zero status on AA, after four RTs YYZ-HKG-BKK on CX, you will get to AAdv EXP elite status and will have 135k AA miles, enough for one F award ticket, along with 20 domestic upgrade stickers, and 8 systemwide upgrades. Each additional RT as an EXP will get just under 40k miles. Yes, all those upgrades are only good on AA flights and your priority for op-ups on CX, even as a top-tier EXP, will be lower than if you were a DM, but they aren't zero either.

Definitely, shorter overall flight times and avoiding unnecessary border crossings is a good thing though!

I did got it straight and it's been done. My colleague bought a AA codeshare Y ticket with Cathay, used miles to upgrade himself to J.

Sorry, but it's done.So how do you explain:Upgrade awards are only valid on individual published-fare tickets on flights marketed and operated by American Airlines from this page on the AA site: http://www.aa.com/pubcontent/en_US/AAdvantage/partners/airlines/americanAirlines.jsp#travelawards

My suspicion is that your colleague used AsiaMiles, which can be used to upgrade AA flights booked in YBH.

I did got it straight and it's been done. My colleague bought a AA codeshare Y ticket with Cathay, used miles to upgrade himself to J.

Sorry, but it's done.

Ugh....this is like pounding on rocks. You have clearly confused AA miles and Asia Miles, and now we have lots of incorrect information on this site to boot. You just cannot upgrade with AA miles. Period. I am not basing this on reading FT - I'm basing it on a colleague who has a hoard of AA miles (quite fewer Asia Miles), boasted to our whole office how much better off he was with his AA miles when using upgrades, until he had to eat his own words HKG-LAX when he showed up at the airport assuming he could upgrade and was told to pay or fork over ASIA MILES. Not AA miles. With AA miles you can buy AWARD tix, and with AA codeshares you can buy a high-fare subclass and upgrade using ASIA MILES (NOT AA MILES!!!!), but what you insist is correct just plain isn't.

hmm I thought OP has specifically asked for DMs? From time to time I see faulty comments being made from FTers here some of the names seem to be on the list over and over again...