Have been poking around here and on the OW booking tool for a few weeks now, and here's what I have as a VERY prelim. itin. for Dec 2010 (based on Dec 09 and Jan 10), ex-JFK (intending to start and end in YYZ with a cheapo AA rtn to JFK):
*LAX could be eliminated; there was no good flights to NRT when I looked besides this routing; in exchange, I'd put in BUD or such in Europe to make up 16 segments.
** Q1. What's the trend with CX - will they eliminate all intra-Asia F flights?
*** Q2. In Dec 10 and Jan 11 (and when I actually book 11 months out), QF should have more A380 availability in A, I hope?
**** Q3. Quite like this combination of different carriers. If BA's new F is good, I'll want to keep this. If not, is it possible to change a booking like this to CX after the AONE4 ticket is issued?
***** Never been to the ME, and saw the debate between DXB or MCT on another thread, hence this routing ^
Q4. Am a BAEC member, and hope to maximise TPs and mileage gains from this itin. Don't really see myself flying with AA much, or CX for that matter. Should I reconsider and enrol in AAdvantage or AsiaMiles?
Q5. Taxes and surcharges 1: Is there any difference whether I book an AONE4 as a BAEC member, ex-JFK, paying in USD, using a Canadian credit card (Royal Bank of Canada BA Visa), or as an AAdv / CX AM member, ex-YYZ, paying in CAD?
Q6. Taxes and surcharges 2: I get a sense from other posts that CX and QF flights tend to incur higher taxes and surcharges. If I maximise BA codeshare flights, then I should be able to reduce those, and increase BAEC points earning, shouldn't I?
Any other expert tips and suggestions are much appreciated! Thanks very much in advance :)
PS: Have a few BA-specific questions, which I posted here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1009480-few-ba-specific-questions-tps-levels-flights-virgin-aone4-dec-2010-a.html
LH/LX
Oct 24, 09, 5:47 pm
A little advice: if BA and CX is serving the same route then always opt for CX. They have a better First class seat.
DownUnderFlyer
Oct 24, 09, 9:37 pm
Q1: I don't think CX will eliminate regional F altogether. But at the moment there is no guarantee that there will be F on your routes. They seem to turn F on and off with very short notice.
Q2: Maybe yes, maybe no. It might also be that the economy has picked up and that there will be no A availability all together. But many people had their A waitlists cleared in the past.
Q3: Yes, you can change carriers free of charge as long as the routing stays the same. Routing change costs $125 plus taxes etc.
Q4: No, stick to BA. You are aware that this itinerary is not maximizing mileage?
Q5: Your FFP membership will have nothing to do with the price. Normally, if you ticket a flight in one country but start from another, the higher of the two prices will be charged. However, for tickets sold in Canada the lower price will be charged. Canada is currently CAD 12,330 and US currently USD 11,250.
Q6: No, the taxes and surcharges depend more on the issuing carrier than on who operates the flight. So this is why ticketing through AA is much cheaper than ticketing through BA for example.
Capricorn70
Oct 25, 09, 7:07 am
Q4: No, stick to BA. You are aware that this itinerary is not maximizing mileage?
Thanks very much for the clarification.
How can I max the mileage? Is there something fundamental I'm not doing properly?
This dummy itin. will net me about 57000 miles and 1800 TPs (with various BAEC status factors on top of actual flown mileage) - any suggestion I can do better?
Thanks a heap!!^
christep
Oct 25, 09, 7:58 am
Clearly you could do a load better on miles.
1) Use all 16 segments (some error regarding Tokyo. CX only flies scheduled flights from NRT)
2) Fly to the opposite sides of the US - so do East Coast to Asia and from LHR to West Coast.
3) Don't use two segments to get SWP-Eur, use one (enter SWP from as far north in Asia as possible: HKG, or even NRT)
4) Try to avoid very short segments like LAX-SFO
To take part of it as an example:
SFO-NRT-HKG-SIN-SYD is 12461 flight miles
SFO-HKG-SIN-NRT-SYD is 16684.
Moomba
Oct 25, 09, 8:38 am
Here is some food for thought as I see it.
You could alter the tail end to go LHR-LAX-DFW-JFK.
Also note that you can finish in YYZ if you wish with the last sector (YYZ-JFK) being a surface sector.
(c) Travel may originate at any point for which fares are published and must terminate at the same point,
except that origin-destination surface segments are permitted as follows
(a) within the country of origin
(b) within the Middle East
(c) between the United States and Canada
(d) between HKG and China
(e) between Malaysia and SIN
(f) within Africa
(g) between Maldives & Sri Lanka/India
from rule sheet on oneworld.com (http://www.oneworld.com/content/library/oneworld_explorer_rule_sheet.pdf)
If you don't want to go to LAX why not a direct DFW-SFO sector instead. Or you could score a few more miles by going to NRT via ORD instead. DFW-SFO-ORD-NRT. Of course it all depends on how much time you want to spend flying for miles rather than getting from A to B.
CX in Asia is a real crap shoot at the moment and who knows what it will be like 12 months from now. F completely disappeared from HKG-SIN late last year but came back on a limited basis recently. Now it seems HKG-NRT is devoid of any flights with F. Perhaps if the global economy picks up things might change.
In Asia the big money spinner for TPs is NRT-SIN as it is over the magic 2000 miles marker. However it does not look like JL are flying F on that route at the moment. Still it is 120 TP for one sector rather than using 2 at 60 a piece in F.
skipaway
Oct 25, 09, 9:14 am
I'm confused, but hopeful. I saw a similar itinerary on the "longest 16 segment" thread (post # 24) in the sticky re useful links , and now this one. The one in the sticky actually had the MM "valid itin" message, and neither that trip, nor this one, has been contradicted so far. I thought you could only have a maximum of two stopovers in continent of origen, one leaving, one returning. Not so? If this works, sign me up!
Gardyloo
Oct 25, 09, 10:29 am
I'm confused, but hopeful. I saw a similar itinerary on the "longest 16 segment" thread (post # 24) in the sticky re useful links , and now this one. The one in the sticky actually had the MM "valid itin" message, and neither that trip, nor this one, has been contradicted so far. I thought you could only have a maximum of two stopovers in continent of origen, one leaving, one returning. Not so? If this works, sign me up!There seems to be some confusion over a relatively new line in the fare rules. You are allowed two stopovers (> 24h) in the continent of origin, always have been. For stopovers in the country of origin, there's now a maximum of one outgoing and one incoming. This would apply mainly in countries like the US or Oz where internal flights are often taken prior to leaving the country of origin for the first time, or where more than one internal flight might occur upon returning to that country at the end of the trip. But the rule regarding timing of the stopovers only applies to the country of origin, not the continent.
DownUnderFlyer
Oct 25, 09, 6:04 pm
Thanks very much for the clarification.
How can I max the mileage? Is there something fundamental I'm not doing properly?
This dummy itin. will net me about 57000 miles and 1800 TPs (with various BAEC status factors on top of actual flown mileage) - any suggestion I can do better?
Thanks a heap!!^
The itinerary currently is 47,000 BIS miles and would only get the 1800 TPs if you actually get A on each flight (which you won't as AA flight between Canada and the US have only J).
In terms of TP earning you can do much better by selecting flights which are over 2000 miles even so they are not F. Also, look for "freaky" single flight number flights ex LAX/SFO/SEA/PHX/LAS with more than 2000 miles. As an example I have included LAX-RDU which does exist at certain times.
would give you 55800 BIS seat miles and more than 2100 TPs. This is not totally optimized as it allows for CX JFK-YVR and QF A380 SIN-SYD. The big problem is that it is very uncertain which routes will have F at the end of next year.
[QUOTE=Gardyloo;12705810]There seems to be some confusion over a relatively new line in the fare rules. You are allowed two stopovers (> 24h) in the continent of origin, always have been. For stopovers in the country of origin, there's now a maximum of one outgoing and one incoming. This would apply mainly in countries like the US or Oz where internal flights are often taken prior to leaving the country of origin for the first time, or where more than one internal flight might occur upon returning to that country at the end of the trip. But the rule regarding timing of the stopovers only applies to the country of origin, not the continent.
Ok, but OP is planning 4 stopovers in NA prior to departing SFO. (>24h, I'm assuming, is "greater than 24 hours") I may still not be clear, but I'm thinking the YVR stopover would be OK, and any ONE of the outbound stops in the US could be a stopover?
So an itinerary like
JFK-YVR-DFW-NRT-CGK-NRT-SIN-SYD-MEL-LHR-MCT-LHR-LAX-RDU-LAX-DFW-JFK
would give you 55800 BIS seat miles and more than 2100 TPs. This is not totally optimized as it allows for CX JFK-YVR and QF A380 SIN-SYD. The big problem is that it is very uncertain which routes will have F at the end of next year.
Genius! Now, re stopovers in continent of origen, how many could OP do on the back end? Would s/he have to limit to <24 hours, or do only one stopover first part of trip, thus saving one >24 h from among LAX, RDU, DFW? Those last 5 segments would be pretty grueling without a break, although, I suppose, there's plenty of time for dinner and a night in a hotel after any or all of them.
Gardyloo
Oct 25, 09, 7:44 pm
Ah, OK - I think there's probably confusion on ">" vs. "<". Two stopovers 24+ hrs in the continent of origin, of which only 1 could be in the country of origin before an intercontinental flight, and of which only 1 could be in the country of origin upon re-entering the continent of origin at the end of the circle.
I don't think LAX-RDU-LAX is possible in a turnaround; indeed I don't see RDU-LAX in the AA timetable at all; perhaps DownUnderFlyer could mention the dates. These "direct" flights come and go and are typically asymmetrical (e.g. LAX-RDU, RDU-SEA.) When the OP goes to ticketing if they're not there in the time frame for the RTW they won't be allowed.
DownUnderFlyer
Oct 25, 09, 9:11 pm
Ah, OK - I think there's probably confusion on ">" vs. "<". Two stopovers 24+ hrs in the continent of origin, of which only 1 could be in the country of origin before an intercontinental flight, and of which only 1 could be in the country of origin upon re-entering the continent of origin at the end of the circle.
I don't think LAX-RDU-LAX is possible in a turnaround; indeed I don't see RDU-LAX in the AA timetable at all; perhaps DownUnderFlyer could mention the dates. These "direct" flights come and go and are typically asymmetrical (e.g. LAX-RDU, RDU-SEA.) When the OP goes to ticketing if they're not there in the time frame for the RTW they won't be allowed.
They were meant as a place holder and to explain the principal. The OP will need to puzzle the real flights together once ticketing time comes. And even then there is a chance that those flights won't be there when the OP actually flies so AA would need to accommodate him somehow.
AA timetable currently shows LAX-RDU-SAN as a possibility (also the flights don't come up in Sabre) but this is a moot points as they will be gone by the time the OP tickets the DONE4.
Capricorn70
Oct 26, 09, 5:38 am
Thanks everyone for your ideas!^ I've certainly learned a few things about including as many 2000+ segments (sector? I can never remember which is which) as I can, and am redesigning the itin.
would give you 55800 BIS seat miles and more than 2100 TPs. This is not totally optimized as it allows for CX JFK-YVR and QF A380 SIN-SYD. The big problem is that it is very uncertain which routes will have F at the end of next year.
I like the 2100 TPs and 55800 miles (could easily get an extra 30+% with status)
I do want to include at least a ride on the A380, and a proper LH F on CX metal. I don't have to do CX between JFK-YVR.
My modified routing, for research purposes, is as follows:
ORD - (MIA) - JFK (-24 hrs)[AA A, 757; 767]
JKF - HKG [CX F, 777]
HKG - KIX [CX F, 744]
KIX - BKK [JL D, 777]
BKK - NRT [JL D, 777]
NRT - SIN [JL D, 777]
SIN - SYD [QF A, 380]
SYD - (HKG) - LHR [QF A, 744; CX A, 744]
LHR - MCT [BA A, 777]
MCT - (LHR) - IST [BA A, 777; BA D, 320]
IST - (LHR) - SFO [BA D, 320; A, 744]
SFO - BOS [AA A, 757]
Not entirely happy with the intra-Asia segments, esp only on JL D class! I'd like to work in a proper JL F segment - ex-JFK or ORD? I hope more availability will come up.
Is this itin. better for maximising miles and TPs?
Thanks again!
DownUnderFlyer
Oct 26, 09, 6:23 am
A good indication is always to put your itinerary into Mileage Monkey. So what you now have is 53650 miles and 2060 TPs.
What do you mean by "hoping that more JL availability comes up"? You mean more F routes? Or more availability in F? And if the latter, how can you check, since Dec 2010 is too far away.
Moomba
Oct 26, 09, 6:32 am
JL seem reluctant to offer A availability until closer to the flight date. I gather they think they can sell high fares. You could take the risk of routing via ORD or JFK to NRT on AA and hope that JL opens up closer to your travel dates. You could change to the JL flights without any change fee being required (unless the ticketing agent charges their own).
You might also have some fun on the IST legs as I have noticed that BA don't always have D open on those sectors and you can't waitlist D with BA.
As you are planning this so far in advance there is a risk that anything could happen re routing and A availability on any carrier.
You might just have to get the best you can for now and take a hit on the 125 US change fee and alter your routing after you have begun the trip to get what you really want.
Sounds like a fun trip.
christep
Oct 26, 09, 6:44 am
Some observations:
SFO-BOS is crappy F. SFO to JFK is proper F, albeit for a few less miles.
SYD-HKG-LHR is using an extra segment just to get CX on HKG-LHR. To be honest I reckon if you can get a QF 380 on SYD-LHR then go with that an use the other segment somewhere else.
How about:
ORD - (MIA) - JFK (-24 hrs)[AA A, 757; 767]
JKF - HKG [CX F, 777]
HKG - KIX [CX F, 744]
KIX - BKK [JL D, 777]
BKK - NRT [JL D, 777]
NRT - SIN [JL D, 777]
SIN - NRT [JL]
NRT - SYD [JL]
SYD - LHR [QF A, 380]
LHR - MCT [BA A, 777]
MCT - (LHR) - IST [BA A, 777; BA D, 320]
IST - (LHR) - SFO [BA D, 320; A, 744]
SFO - JFK [AA A, 762]
Or substitute the SIN-NRT-SYD in J for a SIN-HKG-SYD in CX/QF A (depending on timing).
Capricorn70
Oct 26, 09, 5:34 pm
What do you mean by "hoping that more JL availability comes up"? You mean more F routes? Or more availability in F? And if the latter, how can you check, since Dec 2010 is too far away.
While I'm trying out dummy bookings on JL, everything is in D - transcon or intra-asia! I know for a fact JL has a new F product ex-JFK and SFO, but it doesn't show up for some reason (can't be full ALREADY - i've tried March 10, Jun 10, Sept 10).
As Moomba says, perhaps they're withholding seats until closer to the flights?
DownUnderFlyer
Oct 26, 09, 5:56 pm
While I'm trying out dummy bookings on JL, everything is in D - transcon or intra-asia! I know for a fact JL has a new F product ex-JFK and SFO, but it doesn't show up for some reason (can't be full ALREADY - i've tried March 10, Jun 10, Sept 10).
As Moomba says, perhaps they're withholding seats until closer to the flights?
Christep is giving some good advice in regards to the quality of the F product within the US. 767s are best on AA.
In regards to JL, this is what I see:
[KVS Availability Tool 5.1.2/Platinum - Sabre: Availability/GTC/US-CRPD1] (http://www.KVSTool.com/?R)
JFK New York John F Kennedy Int'l NY US [KJFK]
NRT Tokyo Narita JP [RJAA]
MON 14 Jun 2010
So it seems they are not making D or A available yet. But if you waitlist I guess it will come through so this is nothing you can do online.
DownUnderFlyer
Oct 26, 09, 5:58 pm
Or substitute the SIN-NRT-SYD in J for a SIN-HKG-SYD in CX/QF A (depending on timing).
The problem with this is that SIN-HKG in F is half the BAEC TP compared to SIN-NRT in J.
Capricorn70
Oct 26, 09, 7:40 pm
Thanks again for the info everyone!^
When it comes to codeshare flights, does it make a difference which carrier's flight no. I book on? Say JFK-HKG, on CX triple7 - *AA codeshare no. or CX's proper? Similarly, SIN-SYD, QF A380 (*BA vs QF)?
Also found a few more 2000+ miles sectors in Asia on CX: HKG-CGK; HKG-CTS. Although they're not really places I want to visit.
NRT - (SIN) - SYD is also a superior routing to NRT-SYD. Now it's a matter of finding out if JL has F on NRT-SIN (old-style?)
DownUnderFlyer
Oct 26, 09, 9:04 pm
Codeshares can matter a little bit. The main difference can be in terms of earning for your Frequent Flyer Program (so all of us QF members will always book AA codes over CX codes as we get bonus miles). The only other thing is that a codeshare might affect your chances of an op-up which is not really relevant for you.
Also be aware that CX regional can be quite bad, IMHO JL will be much better.
And I think there is no JL F to SIN currently.
Gardyloo
Oct 26, 09, 11:29 pm
Also be aware that CX regional can be quite bad, IMHO JL will be much better.
And I think there is no JL F to SIN currently.Last time I went NRT-SIN-NRT in J on JL it was an ancient 744 with fuzzy old seats and lousy IFE. JL has too many seating configurations to make planning far ahead very easy.
I know the OP wants to start/end in the US, but feel obliged to mention that there are places where the cost of an AONE4 will be quite a lot cheaper (e.g. AMM) than the US - with savings that might justify the access flights.
Again, the timing's pretty far out, but it might be worth it to consider going NA > SWP > Asia and have a chance of taking QF's A380 across the Pacific as well as an Asia > Europe segment. ...LAX-SYD...SIN-LHR... for example.
Capricorn70
Oct 31, 09, 10:49 am
A tweaked itin. now looks like this, and a few extra questions please:
Q1: [JFK- (HKG) - SYD: CX 777; QF 744]: This counts as 1 segment on the WO booking tool, but I will get credited for the TPs on BOTH legs separately, correct? (180+180=360)
Q2: [SYD - AKL: D on LA 340]: Is there no F on LA? Is D a good (hard and soft) product?
Q3a and b: [KIX - SIN: D on JL 777]: a) Does JL operate F on this route? b) If I could find a connection via HKG on CX in A on one of the legs, would this count as 2 segments or 1?
Q4: [LAX - MIA: F on AA 767]: Is F on the 767s better than the 757s?
Q5: The mileage quoted on MileageMonkey is actual miles flown? I'll have to factor in cabin bonus on BA for the grand total then?
Any further tips on maximising TPs and miles would be much appreciated too!
Thanks again!!
Gardyloo
Oct 31, 09, 11:10 am
A tweaked itin. now looks like this, and a few extra questions please:
Q1: [JFK- (HKG) - SYD: CX 777; QF 744]: This counts as 1 segment on the WO booking tool, but I will get credited for the TPs on BOTH legs separately, correct? (180+180=360)
Q2: [SYD - AKL: D on LA 340]: Is there no F on LA? Is D a good (hard and soft) product?
Q3a and b: [KIX - SIN: D on JL 777]: a) Does JL operate F n this route? b) If I could find a connection via HKG on CX in A on one of the legs, would this count as 2 segments or 1?
Q4: [LAX - MIA: F on AA 767]: Is F on the 767s better than the 757s?
Q5: The mileage quoted on MileageMonkey is actual miles flown? I'll have to factor in cabin bonus on BA for the grand total then?
Any further tips on maximising TPs and miles would be much appreciated too!
Thanks again!!1. JFK-HKG-SYD will be two segments, and probably won't be allowed as the current interpretation of the "second Asia entry" appears to be that it's only valid in conjunction with a SWP < > Europe itinerary, not N. America < > SWP. In order to have NA > SWP > Asia as your general itinerary, you'd have to go from a N. American gateway (JFK/LAX/SFO/HNL) directly to Oz/NZ and not via HKG.
2. Lan has discontinued first class. Their J product is very good, but IMO not necessarily that much better than QF's. QF has a lot more flights between AKL and Oz, so potentially more convenient.
3a. No FC on KIX-SIN or anywhere else from KIX that I can see on JL. For the time being it seems the only intra-Asia services to/from Japan that have F are HKG-KIX (CX) and NRT-HKG (both JL and CX.) But as noted it's a changing picture, and counting on intra-Asia F in the future looks pretty dicey.
3b. Every time a flight number changes, it's another segment.
4. Very much better. However LAX-MIA often operates with 777 equipment, so F gets Flagship Suites, some of the best FC chairs going.
5. Mileage Monkey is usually close, but not guaranteed. COS and elite bonuses depend on your FF plan.
Moomba
Oct 31, 09, 11:57 am
1. JFK-HKG-SYD will be two segments, and probably won't be allowed as the current interpretation of the "second Asia entry" appears to be that it's only valid in conjunction with a SWP < > Europe itinerary, not N. America < > SWP. In order to have NA > SWP > Asia as your general itinerary, you'd have to go from a N. American gateway (JFK/LAX/SFO/HNL) directly to Oz/NZ and not via HKG.
If our MLF re-ordered his Asia SWP so that the SE Asia flights were prior to Oz then he could fly direct SYD via SIN to LHR using the second Aisa entry rule.
Kiwi Flyer
Oct 31, 09, 4:24 pm
1. JFK-HKG-SYD will be two segments, and probably won't be allowed as the current interpretation of the "second Asia entry" appears to be that it's only valid in conjunction with a SWP < > Europe itinerary, not N. America < > SWP. In order to have NA > SWP > Asia as your general itinerary, you'd have to go from a N. American gateway (JFK/LAX/SFO/HNL) directly to Oz/NZ and not via HKG.
The RTW booking tool appears to accept it, passes the validation checks ... but I've never successfully ticketed with this kind of itinerary with a generic error message at the final payment step. It's taken me a while to work out what is going on but the common element is this kind of routing, when I removed it the ticketing went through fine.
Capricorn70
Oct 31, 09, 5:17 pm
Yep - I dummy booked it and it was validated on OW's tool as well as on Mileage Monkey.
Is 56110 miles about the best I can do? I think the intra-Asia segments are about as maximised as I can.
Is there a way to maximise intra-Europe? Shame I can't do both MCT and TLV ex-LHR.
DownUnderFlyer
Nov 1, 09, 3:34 am
Yep - I dummy booked it and it was validated on OW's tool as well as on Mileage Monkey.
Is 56110 miles about the best I can do? I think the intra-Asia segments are about as maximised as I can.
Is there a way to maximise intra-Europe? Shame I can't do both MCT and TLV ex-LHR.
I think you have maxed the European flights. There are much longer flights with in Asia but they don't have F.
Without any logical reason, I also see a risk that AKL-HKG might not have F anymore by the time you fly.
Gardyloo
Nov 1, 09, 9:00 am
Without any logical reason, I also see a risk that AKL-HKG might not have F anymore by the time you fly.It didn't last time I flew it - 3 class plane sold as 2 class. One or two (I presume CX Emeralds) sat up front in the big chairs, but nobody else. J was packed, as was Y.
Kiwi Flyer
Nov 1, 09, 11:33 am
I think you have maxed the European flights. There are much longer flights with in Asia but they don't have F.
Without any logical reason, I also see a risk that AKL-HKG might not have F anymore by the time you fly.
F on AKL-HKG is only sold for the peak southern summer season.