KLM Flying Dutchman - Whats it worh when the Mrs is Blue and AFKL really screw up

I'm on a two week tour around the US and rather than flying back to France for the weekend Mrs Fr flew over to join me in Washington. Pretty good deal at €392 return from Paris (better than miles plus €250) allowed Madame to extend her 100K for another 20 months.

Monday 19th on the way back EVERYTHING went wrong for her and 238 other pax. They took off on time (in fact 15 minutes early) Oil pressure problem on board two and a half hours into the flight one engine shut down and some electrics switched off. Turned around for Halifax but then re-diverted to Bangor for an emergency landing (due to better weather) after about 3 hours flight - crew on board good and re-assuring, however promised that the ground staff would take care of them (what ground staff in Bangor?), which as soon as she called me I knew it was going to be a disaster.

So the next 24 hours were a typical AFKL ground disaster nightmare that I've only ever read about on this forum with my wife (a lowly Blue card holder) and the other 238 pax being treated like low class sheep - the little information they were given was pure absolute provable LIES (such as no availability on flights out of BOS or NYC, plane being fixed, etc.)

Almost four hours to get checked in to the Holiday Bangor, abysmal dinner, told to wait in their rooms until midday(!) the next day for information (thou shalt not go out of the hotel). Then put on a bus at 1pm back to the airport for a departure to Amsterdam. However, on www.airliners.net, everybody knew that KLM was sending a new plane to Bangor to pick them up which had not even left Amsterdam before they were "repatriated" to the airport - what were they waiting for?

Back at Bangor airport they were told to go through security and 200 people were parked in a tiny room and offered dinner for about 100 pax (nothing left for my wife and friend) to wait they were not given any information other than that the plane was being fixed/another plane was on its way which would leave around 6pm. Thanks to Internet and Mobile phones I was able to keep them informed that this was complete rubbish and that at best the new plane would land at 6h30pm at best to leave again at 9pm.

In the end they took a cab to go and visit Bangor (well, it's better than an airport), didn't get dinner and took off well after 10 pm and ended up in Paris around 2pm today...

They were very very hungry, had spent a miserable time being treated like c**p an were tired. I'm just peeved - it's not as if Washington (or Bangor) is the most remote place on the earth, other solutions were available. KLM could also have sent a Customer Service agent to Bangor with the techniciens that I guess they sent from NYC.

I feel guilty, I tried my best with the Platinum reservations line who, of course, couldn't help.

Once in Amsterdam and then in Paris they have so far received absolutely no apologies or compensation either for the 27 hour delay or for the disgusting treatment they have received. A day and a half of work missed, an extra 27 hours parking, phone calls (they didn't even offer to re-imburse that), etc.

So what do you all think the best options are:

1) Send a letter via the online tool?
2) Write a letter and send to AFKL customer relations in Paris?
3) Legal?

Is there any way that I can use my Plat status (over 120 flights a year for the last 10 years to have her taken seriously)?

The only good thing is that, despite never having had such a serious delay in the past 10 years myself, at least I can start saying "darling, you see what I go through every week..." and try to get some sympathy :(

I had the same sort of experience in Montreal when our AF - LAX-LHR made an emergency landing there. Nobody there of AF - KLM (5 flights a day go from there to AMS and CDG) and I got myself and I friend out by calling AF - KLM direct. Even though it was a year a go perhaps people are still stuck there. I did not follow it up but it was an extremely bad experience.

To get back to the subject: I think you are blaming AFKL for a lot of stuff that is outside their control (e.g. the hotel situation in Bangor, the state of that airport, the quality of the hotel food, etc).

As you well know (or maybe not) everything goes to h*ll in a handbaskett pdq when diversions to remote airports occur. Be glad they chose safety over comfort.

As far as compensation is concerned: no chance unless out of sympathy. You are not entitled to anything.

No compensation for 27 hours late due to a technical problem with a plane? Definitely due something (not weather, not ATC, not Government restrictions - a KLM mechanical issue).

Now I agree and (in the warmth of Washington) knew it was going to be pretty disastrous, but they did Lie to her, they got all of their information from me which I had obtained via google, they made her go back to the airport 10 hours early which was patently incorrect. Above all they could have saved everybody time by booking them on alternate flights via BOS/NYC/IAD etc. - would also have saved themselves flying an empty plane across the atlantic.

If it had been me (Platinum) I am sure I would at least get 10k miles (I've had more for less) - surely at least an apology should have been offered...

According to another website they flew a technicien up from NY - why not a customer service agent?


P.S. I do agree that the comment from a previous poster was unnecessary - perhaps a Mod. can clean?

P.S. I do agree that the comment from a previous poster was unnecessary - perhaps a Mod. can clean?

Done. Thanks for the heads up.

First of all, I would be interested to know why henkybaby thinks that no compensation is due. I would have thought that this kind of situation comes under EU compensation rules... or am I wrong?

jsfr, sorry to hear about your wife's ordeal. For some reason KLM just don't seem to be very good at coping with unexpected situations. I have found this myself time and time again. I think - based both on my own observations, and on discussions with a friend who works for KLM - that this is because of corporate mentality and the way they train their staff. Staff are not trained to be flexible and to think for themselves and to take problem ownership - it's all procedures, procedures, procedures; the moment something happens that falls outside set procedures staff are completely lost.

I don't think that a plane going tech in the air falls under EU compensation but I am happily proved wrong!

I think that they wanted to keep the pax as closely together as possible to avoid further delays when pax do not turn up on time etc. Understandable at such an remote station. Unfortunately most people really can't handle the truth and need to be manipulated into certain behaviour. Fact of life I'm afraid.

I don't think that a plane going tech in the air falls under EU compensation but I am happily proved wrong!

I think that they wanted to keep the pax as closely together as possible to avoid further delays when pax do not turn up on time etc. Understandable at such an remote station. Unfortunately most people really can't handle the truth and need to be manipulated into certain behaviour. Fact of life I'm afraid.

Plane going tech certainly can constitue a reason for EU compensation. Several courts have rules on this in various EU states AFAIK.

Plane going tech certainly can constitue a reason for EU compensation. Several courts have rules on this in various EU states AFAIK.

The crucial part was "going tech in the air" since this does not lead to a cancelled flight.

The crucial part was "going tech in the air" since this does not lead to a cancelled flight.

But it does cause a delay.
The question is still being debated (in courts) at which point in time/delay a flight can be considered to be cancelled ?

But it does cause a delay.
The question is still being debated (in courts) at which point in time/delay a flight can be considered to be cancelled ?

My guess is that a court will consider an emergency landing to be good measure by the airline and will never rule in a way that would cause airlines to stretch their safety procedures.

My guess is that a court will consider an emergency landing to be good measure by the airline and will never rule in a way that would cause airlines to stretch their safety procedures.

Using this kind of logic at what point would a passenger cease to be entitled to compensation?

- aircraft makes an emergency landing at a different airport several hours into the flight

- aircraft develops problems an hour into the flight and returns to the departure airport

- aircraft develops problems immediately after take-off and returns to the departure airport

- aircraft aborts take-off

- aircraft gets as far as the holding point, pilot is not happy, aircraft returns to the stand

- aircraft engines are started, pilot is not happy, passengers are sent back to the building

I would have thought that if passengers are delayed because an aircraft has gone tech then it is irrelevant at what point the pilot makes his decision not to continue with the flight.

I would have thought that if passengers are delayed because an aircraft has gone tech then it is irrelevant at what point the pilot makes his decision not to continue with the flight.I'll second that.

If a flight is canceled, then the relevant rules and regulations apply, regardless of when the cancelation occurred. The only exeception is when a flight is canceled in such good time that pax can be notified so far in advance that compensation is reduced as per those same regulations.

Johan

Well, it was a guess. We will no doubt hear how it turns out...

The EU rules are vague and there has been limited case law. Airlines in general have been hiding behind 'exceptional circumstances' to escape the compensation.

The rule laid down by the European Court of Justice is that technical problems are not a valid reason to invoke in all cases. In this case, it might well be a while until the cause of the problem is known and then only will it be clear whether compensation may be due or not. KL will have to make a case that what happened was exceptional and not something that is due to for example poor maintenance, something which could easily be detected or avoided, old planes, etc.

Of course, that is the legal situation and if I ran KLM (and I don't, AF does!) I would have tried to handle the situation with better info - but I would have also kept all pax locally. I can understand why KL would try to get a plane to Bangor to pick up all pax and their bags.

I have fortunately never been stranded there (my only diversion was to BOS) but would you imagine a sleepy airport - that apart from some domestic shorthauls only gets international or widebody traffic in sporadic emergencies - being able to handle bags, ticketing etc. for 239 passengers all going in different directions through BOS or NYC?

It is also possible to understand that KL don't have a set of spare planes waiting for such emergencies and that it may take a few hours to see if one can be made available. These are pretty complex logistical operations after all. And - this is not an apology but an explanation perhaps - I have often known more about delays etc. than staff at the airlines in question, they sometimes don't communicate properly even within companies, so how about a desk person in BGR...

By the way, were pax recleared through US immigration at BGR? Homeland Security may have had something to do with it as well.

I am not saying KL handled it very well, but I can understand why a lot of what happened did happen. If anyone has better experiences in case of emergency diversions to remote locations, I'd be pleased to hear.

Reunited with Mrs Fr and seen the photos of the second days wait in Bangor airport - the food offered looked really bad and with Dinner there was a choice of Dr. Peppers, Lemonade or tap water - no mineral water and certainly no wine. No starters, main course of Mashed Potatoes, Beans and fried chicken meat-balls, no desert...

When they arrived in Bangor there were no immigration inspectors and no controls - just metal and hand baggage controls upon departure.

Reunited with Mrs Fr and seen the photos of the second days wait in Bangor airport - the food offered looked really bad and with Dinner there was a choice of Dr. Peppers, Lemonade or tap water - no mineral water and certainly no wine. No starters, main course of Mashed Potatoes, Beans and fried chicken meat-balls, no desert...

When they arrived in Bangor there were no immigration inspectors and no controls - just metal and hand baggage controls upon departure.

And this is the fault of KLM/AF since they need to make sure that all airports they could possibly be diverted to are full of 5 star hotels, 3 star restaurants and fully equiped to deal with a full widebody. Right on!

... the food offered looked really bad and with Dinner there was a choice of Dr. Peppers, Lemonade or tap water - no mineral water and certainly no wine. No starters, main course of Mashed Potatoes, Beans and fried chicken meat-balls, no desert...


Ah, to me this sounds like, what country was it, oh, I remember now, it sounds like she was in the USA.

I now understand that the food offered in Bangor, USA, might be different from what is on offer in Paris, France. I had never realized this before ;)

On the other hand, I passed through Strasbourg last week and the only 'food' available at this international airport after the security check is from a vending machine.:(

On a serious note: if there was no immigration (which makes sense as Bangor only has domestic flights) then I could speculate that KL may even have been required to keep everyone at the airport.

And this is the fault of KLM/AF since they need to make sure that all airports they could possibly be diverted to are full of 5 star hotels, 3 star restaurants and fully equiped to deal with a full widebody. Right on!

I couldn't agree more with you. Exactly what you would expect in a small airport not used to dealing 250 stranded passengers.

BUT, if I know it, and you know it and it seems bloudy obvious to everybody perhaps KLM could have figured it out as well...

Alternatives? Not have the passengers go back to the airport for no reason 9 hours before the anticipated departure and feed the passengers at one (or all) of the Hotels used to accomodate them!!!!!!

Ah, to me this sounds like, what country was it, oh, I remember now, it sounds like she was in the USA.

I now understand that the food offered in Bangor, USA, might be different from what is on offer in Paris, France. I had never realized this before ;)

On the other hand, I passed through Strasbourg last week and the only 'food' available at this international airport after the security check is from a vending machine.:(

On a serious note: if there was no immigration (which makes sense as Bangor only has domestic flights) then I could speculate that KL may even have been required to keep everyone at the airport.

True, but we are in the 21st century and layovers have been happening for the last 50 years - by definition these happen hen airlines are not expecting them and often in cities where the airline has no representation.

Surely serious airlines have contingency plans for these sorts of events whenever and wherever it happens- as you say, this is the USA and not Outer Mongolia...

Concerning immigration, you're right - that could really have been a lot worse than it was. I suspect that someone somewhere applied a little logic and empathy and that it wasn't the airline...

And this is the fault of KLM/AF since they need to make sure that all airports they could possibly be diverted to are full of 5 star hotels, 3 star restaurants and fully equiped to deal with a full widebody. Right on!

:D:D
I read there was no wine... that's a shocker and unforgiveable.

But seriously: safety before everything else, even if that means landing at a place not really equipped to deal with such numbers of (international) passengers.

I've never disputed that landing as soon as possible in the closest safest airport is a given and anything else would be worse than foolish.

However, surely they should have a plan for the several times a year when a plane lands in relatively small destination that is not serviced by KLM and that plan should revolve around minimising the inconveniance/discomfort to already inconveninced passengers rather than aggravating it!!!

Bangor is a small town, but not that small, it still has several hotels and regular Delta/Northwest service - had they tried they could have done better, significantly better...

Still no sign of any form of apology from KLM

I understand your frustration but I believe that a couple of people here have tried to explain that maybe (just maybe) there is not that much to blame AFKL for as you think there is.... They most certainly did not "really screw up".

The only remaining issue is that they 'manipulated' the truth (and we have only your version of the story to base that on) regarding the replacement ac arrival time. We have tried to explain there may be good reasons why they did that. You don't need to agree with them, but they might just be justified...

Pilots and air traffic controllers regularly get presented with simulated emergencies as part of their ongoing training.

"Your starboard engine has just failed"

"A 747 has just run off the end of your runway".

Perhaps airlines should introduce something similar for their staff on the ground. Not just give them a general idea of what they might want to do, but give them a situation and make them go through the motions of resolving it.

"You have 250 passengers stranded in Greenland. Get them home and make sure they're comfortable in the meantime"

If they do regular "practice runs" then hopefully they'll know what to do when it happens for real.