Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan - Will AS ever come to PHX from LAX?

It seems that AS skips around the LAX-PHX-PHX market by offering PRC/FLG-LAX.

Are their costs so high that they are unable to compete against WN and US on this route? Do the yields just make it absolutely impossible, or is it just plain market saturation?

It seems that AS skips around the LAX-PHX-PHX market by offering PRC/FLG-LAX.

Are their costs so high that they are unable to compete against WN and US on this route? Do the yields just make it absolutely impossible, or is it just plain market saturation?

I think its a combination of yields in the toilet and over-saturation with US, WN and even UAX at it...

Now I could see QX possibly adding service to AZA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix-Mesa_Gateway_Airport) @:-) granted G4 is making quite a presence there...

I highly doubt it will come. I don't think there is enough potential revenue - I'm seeing prices ranging from $70 (2 weeks out) to $155 (day of). I think there are other routes AS could deploy aircraft to that would be better serving customers and more profitable to AS.

I think its a combination of yields in the toilet and over-saturation with US, WN and even UAX at it...

Now I could see QX possibly adding service to AZA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix-Mesa_Gateway_Airport) @:-) granted G4 is making quite a presence there...

IMO QX's best chance for a Southwest hub is AZA:D
AZA/ABQ; AZA/MMH; AZA/OAK; AZA/PSP... I could go on and on!

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I think its a combination of yields in the toilet and over-saturation with US, WN and even UAX at it...

Now I could see QX possibly adding service to AZA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix-Mesa_Gateway_Airport) @:-) granted G4 is making quite a presence there...

IMO QX's best chance for a Southwest hub is AZA:D
AZA/ABQ; AZA/MMH; AZA/OAK; AZA/PSP... I could go on and on!

I know... But is it that much more convenient then PHX?

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I know... But is it that much more convenient then PHX?

It depends on where in the valley you are coming from or going to. Williams Gateway is located just far enough in the east valley to make it somewhat inconvenient for those living in the west valley, central Phoenix, Scottsdale and to some extent Tempe. Taxi fares to/from downtown Phoenix and the airport run around $20 plus tip. A taxi to/from AZA and downtown will easily set you back $40-$50 or more.

Also there is no mass transit to the airport at all. At least Sky Harbor has a convenient shuttle bus connection to the LRT and they have just begun the airport connector which will link the LRT station, all three terminals and the car rental facility using a "people-mover" system.

RASMguy posted a few months ago that QX was looking at AZA but has said nothing since. Looking and considering are very different. It would also be a challenge if it were just a few flights a day because you'd need a whole new staff at AZA while at PHX any QX flights would be handled by existing AS employees.

It would only make sense to connect with the bank of Mexico flights from LAX. And considering that US serves most of those same destinations nonstop from PHX, they probably figured it's not worth the hassle.

I recall flying AS LAX-PHX awhile back...was it the late 80s or early 90s? Sometime back then! They had a sandwich basket and sparkling wine in coach...nice flights.

We've looked and it just doesn't pen out. PRC and FLG were appealing since there isn't dozens of flights from Northern AZ to LAX/ONT/SNA/BUR/LGB. PHX is too contested and to some degree TUS is as well. AZA is one that still looks compelling, but no plans for anything in a long time.

We've looked and it just doesn't pen out. PRC and FLG were appealing since there isn't dozens of flights from Northern AZ to LAX/ONT/SNA/BUR/LGB. PHX is too contested and to some degree TUS is as well. AZA is one that still looks compelling, but no plans for anything in a long time.

Just happy to see that AS is continuing to consider this...

We've looked and it just doesn't pen out. PRC and FLG were appealing since there isn't dozens of flights from Northern AZ to LAX/ONT/SNA/BUR/LGB. PHX is too contested and to some degree TUS is as well. AZA is one that still looks compelling, but no plans for anything in a long time.

While you're talking about potential QX locations... what about YCD or YQQ to SEA? Or even expanding YYJ to PDX as well

We've looked and it just doesn't pen out. PRC and FLG were appealing since there isn't dozens of flights from Northern AZ to LAX/ONT/SNA/BUR/LGB. PHX is too contested and to some degree TUS is as well.

Are you saying that there's just too many carriers on that route, or that AS' costs make it unable to compete in the market?

Are you saying that there's just too many carriers on that route, or that AS' costs make it unable to compete in the market?

Too many carriers and too many flights. The yields are really low and we need to be able to extract a modest premium to be successful. Not very likely when US and WN have such a strong schedule dominance. We'd go in, at best, with only 4 flights a day. AA and DL have already proven this doesn't work.

While you're talking about potential QX locations... what about YCD or YQQ to SEA? Or even expanding YYJ to PDX as well

Too thin for the Q400...we'd choose either YCD or YQQ to serve thate region up there. We liked YQQ because it was further up the island and it's further away from YYJ (you don't want to divert too much traffic off a route that is working). PDX-YYJ would be a lot of connecting traffic which gets diverted from SEA, so if we did entertain PDX-YYJ, we'd have to use a current frequency as opposed to adding a new flight.

We've looked and it just doesn't pen out. PRC and FLG were appealing since there isn't dozens of flights from Northern AZ to LAX/ONT/SNA/BUR/LGB. PHX is too contested and to some degree TUS is as well. AZA is one that still looks compelling, but no plans for anything in a long time.

I really like the service into PRC from LAX. Connecting at LAX is much less of a hassle than flying into PHX and then dealing with freeway traffic on the way out of the Valley. Plus, the drive in from PRC to the town is worth the price of the ticket.

PHX is probably a long shot and the only way it could happen is DL doubles or triples their transpacific flights out of LAX, then QX and DL would probably work together to start up some feeder routes from PHX and other nearby cities.

I know QX works very hard to avoid overlapping any routes already served by their partners (especially AE out of LAX), but will they ever consider flying from LAX-SAN/MRY/FAT/SBA/SBP? AE already flies those routes, but I do not understand their fare structure on those routes. When trying to find a nonstop flight from LAX-MRY the fares are always in the $400+ range and sometimes fares are ludicrous. [sometimes you can find a flight for LAX-FAT connecting in SEA is cheaper than AE's]

QX is pretty much the dominant carrier along with UAX [in my opinion] for intra-California flights and is there any possibility of QX taking over or competing on some AE/UAX routes out of LAX?

I think QX can make the SBP route work as long as fares are reasonable unlike AA.

QX is pretty much the dominant carrier along with UAX [in my opinion] for intra-California flights

Um, there's this small airline called Southwest that might beg to differ about who dominates intra-CA routes (recall that AS used to fly mainline OAK-SNA and is killing off SFO-LAX- both of which are WN-competitive routes, and WN pretty much owns OAK and SJC now, along with being strong at BUR and ONT). If you mean RJ-level service intra-CA, then yes, QX is a very strong player, but WN doesn't fly out of STS or MMH. I see QX's CA strategy as mostly "be where WN isn't".

Um, there's this small airline called Southwest that might beg to differ about who dominates intra-CA routes (recall that AS used to fly mainline OAK-SNA and is killing off SFO-LAX- both of which are WN-competitive routes, and WN pretty much owns OAK and SJC now, along with being strong at BUR and ONT).

Umm, yeah I might have heard of this very very small airline called Southworst. Lol :D Sorry for not being clear in the first place, I meant the dominant carrier in # of cities served on the intra-California service.

Southwest is arguably the most dominant carrier on routes between the Bay Area/SMF-LA/SD region and that is about it. I am really looking more into the smaller regional type markets.

If you mean RJ-level service intra-CA, then yes, QX is a very strong player, but WN doesn't fly out of STS or MMH. I see QX's CA strategy as mostly "be where WN isn't".

I would take QX any day over Southwest if they served LAX/BUR-OAK/SFO/SJC on the Q400 at similar fares [$49 ow]. Maybe they can be more competitive with WN with the Q400, because the cost of operating a Dash vs. B737 is far more advantageous.

I asked this EXACT question to Mike McQueen at the MVPG lunch last month. His answer, "nope". AS is focused on more transcon routes in & out of SEATAC...

Elite Status Is Not A Matter of Life Or Death, it’s Much More Important Than That!

I asked this EXACT question to Mike McQueen at the MVPG lunch last month. His answer, "nope". AS is focused on more transcon routes in & out of SEATAC...

Elite Status Is Not A Matter of Life Or Death, it’s Much More Important Than That!

I'll give props to Mike, he is a straight shooter. I asked him about daytime ANC-PDX in the winter and he said pretty much dream on. :(

He did say that IAH may be getting another flight soon, though. ^

PHX is probably a long shot and the only way it could happen is DL doubles or triples their transpacific flights out of LAX

Forget DL! :td: You have four OW airlines with a better product flying from LAX to Asia/Australia with AA,CX,QF, and JL. Then you have LA flying to S America.

RASMGuy, was the codeshare possibilities factored into the equation?

Forget DL! :td: You have four OW airlines with a better product flying from LAX to Asia/Australia with AA,CX,QF, and JL. Then you have LA flying to S America.

RASMGuy, was the codeshare possibilities factored into the equation?

OW is probably better internationally, but they blow domestically with AA being the only option :td:

I really like OW airlines and their products, but what frustrates me the most is, that they are stingy when it comes to mileage accrual on partner carriers. You always have to buy [way] more expensive fares in order to earn 100% miles and full EQMs. SkyTeam/Star has some restrictions, but not as severe as OW's.

I would take QX any day over Southwest if they served LAX/BUR-OAK/SFO/SJC on the Q400 at similar fares [$49 ow]. Maybe they can be more competitive with WN with the Q400, because the cost of operating a Dash vs. B737 is far more advantageous.

I am not so sure of that. If it was so advantageous, I would think we'd see QX running SNA-OAK and more Bay Area-Greater LA in general, instead of AS coughing up the whole shebang altogether to WN. Note that QX does their SJC-SMF as a tag to SBA, for instance...

OW is probably better internationally, but they blow domestically with AA being the only option

Compared to SkyTease blowing with DL as the only domestic option?

You always have to buy [way] more expensive fares in order to earn 100% miles and full EQMs. SkyTeam/Star has some restrictions, but not as severe as OW's.

Thats true for partners, but as I'm with AA I always receive 100% EQM's for the vast majority of my travel. And I will take AAdvantage over anything DL has to offer in regards to FFP. If you want to talk about stingy go read the upgrades thread in the DL forum or about how freely the J awards flow on transpac flights. Then go read about how AA now allows upgrades on the cheapest transpac and transatlantic fares.

I am not so sure of that. If it was so advantageous, I would think we'd see QX running SNA-OAK and more Bay Area-Greater LA in general, instead of AS coughing up the whole shebang altogether to WN. Note that QX does their SJC-SMF as a tag to SBA, for instance...

If you're doing a lot of commuting back and forth from Socal-Bay Area, WN's schedule makes them extremely attractive. There's just something about knowing that I can walk up to the ticket counter, slam my credit card down and be on my way within an hour without paying through the nose. Try the same thing on UA, and you'll have a nasty surprise coming.

I remember a few years back I got the bright idea to try UA from BUR-SFO on some crazy cheap weekend fare. There was fog in SFO and we got slammed with an ever increasing flow time delay. At least 3-4 WN flights took off for OAK before we even pushed from the gate. Once on board I was shoehorned in the E- section where was kept captive until we finally arrived at SFO and waited an inordinately long time for our gate to become available.

Bottom line, commuters fly WN because it's extremely convenient.

Forget DL! :td: You have four OW airlines with a better product flying from LAX to Asia/Australia with AA,CX,QF, and JL. Then you have LA flying to S America.

RASMGuy, was the codeshare possibilities factored into the equation?

Yes, it was modeled in.

I am not so sure of that. If it was so advantageous, I would think we'd see QX running SNA-OAK and more Bay Area-Greater LA in general, instead of AS coughing up the whole shebang altogether to WN. Note that QX does their SJC-SMF as a tag to SBA, for instance...

Actually the SJC-SMF service is a byproduct of saving the BOI-SJC and BOI-SMF service. :D

Bottomline, QX looks at niche intra-California service that we can extract a modest premium from to be profitable. We can't afford to battle 9+ frequencies and $49 fares in the core Bay-So Cal corridor. We don't have the economics for it (Q400 or not). Over the next several years, hopefully you'll see more connect-the-dot type flying (and new cities) in markets that fit this strategy.

Actually the SJC-SMF service is a byproduct of saving the BOI-SJC and BOI-SMF service. :D

Bottomline, QX looks at niche intra-California service that we can extract a modest premium from to be profitable. We can't afford to battle 9+ frequencies and $49 fares in the core Bay-So Cal corridor. We don't have the economics for it (Q400 or not). Over the next several years, hopefully you'll see more connect-the-dot type flying (and new cities) in markets that fit this strategy.

:cool:

But you are making it hard to collect all of AS' & QX's routes :p

:cool:

But you are making it hard to collect all of AS' & QX's routes :p

Yeah, there's a huge piece missing on the OAK-SFO>>LAX for award connecting flights and if someone was inclined to fly AS/QX to Mexico, MMH, PRC/FLG. :(

Yeah, there's a huge piece missing on the OAK-SFO>>LAX for award connecting flights and if someone was inclined to fly AS/QX to Mexico, MMH, PRC/FLG. :(

All ironically holes in my flightmemory too :(

Yeah, there's a huge piece missing on the OAK-SFO>>LAX for award connecting flights and if someone was inclined to fly AS/QX to Mexico, MMH, PRC/FLG. :(

I think we'd like to even someday link up LAX to somewhere in the Bay as well. Then you'd have the 'hook-up'. ;)

As for MMH, you can fly non-stop from SJC to MMH starting 12/17.

I think we'd like to even someday link up LAX to somewhere in the Bay as well. Then you'd have the 'hook-up'. ;)

As for MMH, you can fly non-stop from SJC to MMH starting 12/17.

So someone needs to connect in MMH to get to LAX now from the Bay Area ;)

I think we'd like to even someday link up LAX to somewhere in the Bay as well. Then you'd have the 'hook-up'. ;)

As for MMH, you can fly non-stop from SJC to MMH starting 12/17.

Good to hear about a possible link from the Bay Area to LAX. As far as MMH, I may just have to do that. I don't see a ski trip to Whistler this year due to some sporting event being held up there. :rolleyes: Hotels are just too expensive and I'm sure you guys are making some money flying people up there.