Japan - language problems make Japan tough

There seem to be slightly more Japanese trying to speak English these days, despite Pacific flotsam types hoping to find a job hawking their native language leaving the country in droves, tails between their legs, thanks to the tailspin of the oversaturated English language schools, but it still seems Japan is a tough place to get around easily, and every little thing is expensive and complicated. There aren't enough signs in English (that count) (and why should there be, I guess), and people run off if you start speaking to them and they don't understand. I also get the recurring impression Japanese would really rather not have to hassle with foreigners unless they absolutely have to. Foreigners are no longer the interesting oddities or potential contacts they once were 2 decades or so back, of course.

Do other readers here think Japan is a challenge to get around? - and I don't mean to the ultra touristy spots.

Korea by comparison seems a more welcoming yet equally exotic destination and the countryside is gorgeous from what I have seen. People care and offer help and support there still, like Japan did so many decades ago.

Generally Japan is easier to get around today than 20 years ago. More English terms are now use natively and more Japanese can speak fluent English.

I haven't been to Korea in many years so cannot comment.

I love Japan. I have no trouble getting around there. I find the people helpful and polite and welcoming.

I bought a kimono for my niece in a department store in a nontourist city. None of the clerks spoke English and they helped me find the right accessories, helped me try it on to see if it was the right size, explained the sizing. Laughed when I called my sister to wake her up to talk about the kimono. I've eaten in restaurants where no one spoke English and loved every minute of it. I've been to many places where I'm the only westerner and had a great time. Now, I didn't travel to Japan 20 years ago, so I can't compare, but it is my favorite country to visit. Yes, it's terribly expensive, but so is Europe.

My next trip I'm going to rent a car and see if I can find my way around the countryside without getting hopelessly lost and wrecking the car.

You won't find driving easy there at all if you are American or you drive in a country where they drive on the lefthand side of the road. Do be very, very careful, the signs are in Japanese!

Interetsing you like japan - you must come from a very cluttered country! :)

Nice to hear the department stpore people treated you well. Foriegners who have stayed in Japan often claim the Japanese are great when an exchange of money is involved or it's business; people claim that the man on the street is totally indifferent to foreigners now and would prefer they left.

Funny how impressions differ. Have you visited Korea?

Funny how impressions differ. Have you visited Korea?

Where they are openly hostile to foreigners, as opposed to just indifferent?

Foriegners who have stayed in Japan often claim the Japanese are great when an exchange of money is involved or it's business; people claim that the man on the street is totally indifferent to foreigners now and would prefer they left.

As I live in Japan, I don't really think Japanese are all that great (in terms of service) when it comes to shops. Sometimes they're good, but a lot of the time (this happens especially when you have some young person and their baito) I don't feel it's particularly good (part of this is cultural - like asking for substitutions or for a menu item to be changed a little).

If you don't speak Japanese, Japan can be a difficult place to get around. Most people would rather not deal with foreigners who don't speak Japanese (for obvious reasons). A lot of signs everywhere are in English and a fair number of restaurants have English menus, but most people aren't good at speaking it. There also are some cultural differences - I would never ask some random person on the street for directions - most people ask train station attendants, cops, or convenience store employees.

smells like Troll.

smells like Troll.
Agreed.

Perhaps the OP would like to open a thread in the UK forum and inform everyone based there how "they won't find it easy driving in mainland Europe at all as they drive in a country where they drive on the lefthand side of the road."

What an insightful thread. Thanks OP :td:

What an insightful thread. Thanks OP :td:

I think chamade is French for greenery.

smells like Troll.

To OP:

Just looking at a few of your past posts and they seemed to be insightful.

As for crowded and hard to drive on the left side and other thoughts:

1. I take a taxi so much in Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia that I sometimes get on the wrong side of taxi in my home town.
2. I joke with my Japanese friends that I have no problem driving in Japan since I have a Suburban. I will just drive down the middle of the road like a bus. But I never did rent a car there.
3. As for courtesy related to exchange of money thing; I feel it is real and historical, where the merchant class occupied a particular strata in society. And the way they behaved and made money is passed on.
4. Many places in the world are crowded, India, China etc. So living in an urban sprawl is the anomaly by the numbers. Just judge the frenzy last summer fuel prices caused. It was interesting to stand near the Caltrain ticket machine and see how suburbanites struggle with it as the train pulled into the station.

So likes and dislikes are purely personal and affected by our up bringing. If we view these behavior and conditions in their respective environments and histroical backdrop, they are pretty normal.

...Funny how impressions differ. Have you visited Korea?

If you are an expert on Korea, why haven't you post there at all?

Challenge to get around?
No, never really had any major problems getting around Japan, and that was even before I learned the language. Also considering virtually every train station sign is translated in Japanese and Romaji, with more signs also adding Chinese and Korean to it, no I don't consider it a challenge to get around much.

Try putting some foreign language signs on public transportation in some parts of the US and you get groups of people protesting why tax payer money is going towards such a thing, everyone should learn English blah blah...protests.

As for people running off, I can't speak for your situation, but I can tell you from numerous observations of obviously foreign people lost (and my own experiences) and asking a japanese person, the Japanese person would always stop, spend some time on the matter, even if they don't know where the place is at, study their phone, a map and attempt to communicate an answer. One time I got totally lost somewhere north of Ikebukuro in some neighborhood, at night, not many lights, I saw this kid walking with his bike and I asked where the station was, he said follow him and showed me right to the station (that would NEVER happen where I'm from). So no I've never had a problem.

I've never been to Korea, but I know a lot of Korean people here in Japan, and not many of them speak English, if the topic is strictly about language problems making it though to get around.

I agree with railroadtycoon.

On my trip in 2000, I went to Koyasan for the first time. As I was settling down in my assigned temple, one of the monks told me that there was another American guest, a young man who didn't speak Japanese. Would I mind having dinner with him instead of joining the rest of the guests, who would be hearing a lecture on Buddhism in Japanese?

I agreed to keep the young man company during the multi-course gourmet vegan dinner. It turns out that he had landed at NRT just three days before and had found his way to this rather remote part of Japan without knowing any Japanese.

On my various trips over the past thirty years, I have frequently run into people like that young man at Koyasan, someone who knows no Japanese and gets around just fine.

I, too, am amazed by the concessions that Japan makes to English-speaking visitors and even residents, especially compared to the way that many North Americans have conniption fits if they see or hear Spanish.

....As for people running off, I can't speak for your situation, but I can tell you from numerous observations of obviously foreign people lost (and my own experiences) and asking a japanese person, the Japanese person would always stop, spend some time on the matter, even if they don't know where the place is at, study their phone, a map and attempt to communicate an answer. One time I got totally lost somewhere north of Ikebukuro in some neighborhood, at night, not many lights, I saw this kid walking with his bike and I asked where the station was, he said follow him and showed me right to the station (that would NEVER happen where I'm from). So no I've never had a problem.
...

As I headed to Noto Hanto on the JR Thunderbird, I made a major mistake. I assume the Kagaya ryokan was at Kaga Onzen. Not finding what would be a big hotel at a small station, I turned to the station master. He didn't speak English and I don't have much Japanese. Mrs. SJUAMMF has a little more Japanese. Not only did he pointed out where we needed to go, rebooked us on the next train; he called the hotel and told them we will be late. The hotel then sent a van to fetched us and arranged a late dinner.

It is true that culturally well mannered Japanese don't look strangers in the eye. This is not equivalent to being cold at all. This is their cultural behavior.

Where they are openly hostile to foreigners, as opposed to just indifferent?

I would rather say Koreans and French share a similar attitude towards members of other nationalities. ;)

... As for people running off, I can't speak for your situation, but I can tell you from numerous observations of obviously foreign people lost (and my own experiences) and asking a japanese person, the Japanese person would always stop, spend some time on the matter, even if they don't know where the place is at, study their phone, a map and attempt to communicate an answer. ...
Not only do I agree with everything in your post, I have had the experience of people coming up to me when I am not in any way, shape or form lost and offer help. Perhaps I just naturally have a "lost" expression :p but this seems to happen a lot - almost to the point of occasionally being a nuisance. I think folks just see me as a "safe-looking" foreigner to approach and practice english on. Some of my best interactions with locals have started out this way.

I also seem to have lost, english-speaking foreigners hunt me down to ask directions, which is another thing entirely. More of that "safe" look, I guess.

Where they are openly hostile to foreigners, as opposed to just indifferent?

My biggest hurdle with Korea is the food - the local fare - just can't get into it - but the Koreans themselves? Hostile?? Did you go to Pyongyang?? I have never found Koreans hostile - ever - and I have lived in Korea in the past, too. Interesting how perceptions vary so widely. I've always thought Koreans were much more welcoming than the Japanese.

Interesting how perceptions vary so widely. I've always thought Koreans were much more welcoming than the Japanese.

Indeed. I also have spent a lot of time in Korea (and even more in Japan), and I find that Korean-style xenophobia is unique in its virulence.

Superficially, they can be quite open and friendly (and a lot of fun), but their national ideology is a combination of pride, self-reliance, and fighting spirit that is structurally not conducive to accepting foreign influence or advice.

Doing business in Korea is a spectacular PITA.

.......spectacular PITA. Oh yeah, and I would add more but this is a family station! There was that Judo tourney I worked that exploded that "Korean" myth forever.......:o

You won't find driving easy there at all if you are American or you drive in a country where they drive on the lefthand side of the road. Do be very, very careful, the signs are in Japanese!

Interetsing you like japan - you must come from a very cluttered country! :)

Nice to hear the department stpore people treated you well. Foriegners who have stayed in Japan often claim the Japanese are great when an exchange of money is involved or it's business; people claim that the man on the street is totally indifferent to foreigners now and would prefer they left.

Funny how impressions differ. Have you visited Korea?

I've driven in an number of places where they drive on the "wrong" side of the road. It takes care and paying attention.

Actually, on my first visit to Japan, people stopped me on the street to talk with me--mostly how much they loved America. People wanted to take my picture (a first--we got to swap picture taking sessions). I had no trouble with people wanting to help me find things.

I'm not sure about how cluttered my country is. Parts are highly populated; parts are not.

Yes, I've been to Korea. A very quick visit, though. Not too much of an impression.

There is an island I visit a lot and I'd just as soon all the foreign tourists stayed away. Particularly the Dutch who think that just because the island is part of the Netherlands they belong there. Oh, wait a minute. . . I am the foreigner there. Oh well.

Oh yeah, and I would add more but this is a family station! There was that Judo tourney I worked that exploded that "Korean" myth forever.......:o

Hmmm, yes and no. It is quite difficult to get "inside" a Korean business circle.

But once you do, also the battles against other Korean clans are fought together and you are considered a younger or older brother depending on age. Similar to the Japanese "kohai" and "sempai" but more strict due to the military experience all Korean males share.

Actually, having done some sort of military service beforehand is the best way to prepare for business in Korea, IMHO. Helps to understand the company structures and behaviour quite a lot.

Hmmm, yes and no. It is quite difficult to get "inside" a Korean business circle.

But once you do, also the battles against other Korean clans are fought together and you are considered a younger or older brother depending on age. Similar to the Japanese "kohai" and "sempai" but more strict due to the military experience all Korean males share.

Actually, having done some sort of military service beforehand is the best way to prepare for business in Korea, IMHO. Helps to understand the company structures and behaviour quite a lot.

Thanks for that , but I should have written "my" in the post above. Until that tournament work experience I my opinion was completely different. It was easy to see why the 2 groups don't see eye to eye!

smells like Troll.

Perhaps "akúshū" is the more appropriate term.

Actually, having done some sort of military service beforehand is the best way to prepare for business in Korea, IMHO. Helps to understand the company structures and behaviour quite a lot.

This is a very interesting observation, and sounds like good advice. On the other hand, it can't explain it all. Many other countries have compulsory military service and their corporate structure doesn't mirror the military. Israel comes to mind.

You won't find driving easy there at all if you are American or you drive in a country where they drive on the lefthand side of the road. Do be very, very careful, the signs are in Japanese!....


Contrary to what you say, my experience is that outside of cities virtually all roadsigns are in both Japanese and Western characters. Made navigation much easier than I expected.

I would rather say Koreans and French share a similar attitude towards members of other nationalities. ;)

Interesting observation. Your "wink" doesn't give me much clue about what aspect of French and Korean attitudes you feel are similar. I'm somewhat skeptical of the idea of a "national attitude", but I've observed that many of my French friends are convinced of the superiority of all things French and appear to be not particularly bothered whether outsiders perceive things in the same way. I think this is the attitude that some people refer to as "French arrogance" etc.

OTOH, some Koreans that I have met and done business with have said things within the first moments of our discussion to emphasize the superiority of Korea and Korean culture (in particular the superiority of Korea in relation to Japan). On more than one occasion this need to say that Korea is great has been quite odd in the context of the discussion we were having. On those occasions I got the feeling that the person I was speaking with was suffering from insecurity rather than having a superiority complex.

There is a depth to Korean culture that is not obvious at first sight and I think some of the superiority feeling comes out of that, not insecurity.

The insecurity surely also plays a role but I feel the core of Korean national ethos is in this all-encompassing philosophical and ethical structure of advice, rules and traditions.

China has an equal and longer tradition but maybe more elements and variety due to sheer physical size and different ethnic backgrounds.

This is not something based on academic observation. just a gut feeling that has developed during the years.

... I've observed that many of my French friends are convinced of the superiority of all things French and appear to be not particularly bothered whether outsiders perceive things in the same way.

Seems to me that you could replace French with about 100 or so other nationalities: Italians, Spanish, Chinese, British (good Lord, very definitely British), New Yorkian, Midwestern, Princetonian, ad infinitum/nauseum. (There are variations, of course. E.g., Russians are convinced of the superiority of all things Russian, but they are also convinced of the inferiority of all things Russian, which makes for an interesting contrast.)

I'm in Tokyo right now and although it is difficult not knowing Japanese, it's not a huge hurdle. I think if you have dietary restrictions it might be harder, but I've found just smiling and guessing at a menu has ended me up with some amazing meals!

Today I was in a noodle shop where I ordered through a vending machine and was delighted with what I ended up with. I saw that everyone else had a glass of water, but I didn't see where it had come from. I was looking around and started stressing out about how I was going to have to ask for it. Another customer must have noticed my distress and got up, got me a glass of water and came over and handed it to me and said "water" and bowed. It was incredibly nice.

The thing I love about Japan is that people are very genuine in their offers to help. In many countries you have to suspect peoples motives when they offer to bring you somewhere or help you find something. At the very least, many of them ask for money after they have helped you. Not so in Japan. Even though people here are often insecure about using what English they do know (I feel the same way about Japanese), their desire to help is very real.

Just wanted to echo giblet's comments. My wife was concerned about visiting Japan last years because of potential difficulty with language and communications. However, it was probably one of the best travel experiences we've had.

Part of it is tho is attitude. We learned a few key phrases and words (probably <50) before we left and that generally got us by "self serve". There's generally enough English signs IMO but our guidebook helped us along also. However, whenever we got stuck, we experienced very friendly help. Yes, people were insecure about their English but it was always enough to get the points across.

Haven't had a chance to travel to Korea yet. However, I've had the opportunity to host a few groups from Korea as part of my work. Everyone I met were generally friendly but a bit reserved. Can't really explain it but a bit hierarchical too. Tough to compare tho between vacationer setting vs business setting I suppose.

(There are variations, of course. E.g., Russians are convinced of the superiority of all things Russian, but they are also convinced of the inferiority of all things Russian, which makes for an interesting contrast.)
What variation?
You've described us Brits perfectly
(You've also described us Spaniards - it's just that we're also convinced of the superiority of our inferior things - chapuzas (http://www.andalunet.com/humor/ver.php?id=106) - too)

I know Britain well - and I think there's an obvious gap between any rhetoric that you might hear about the "great British" whatever and people's true belief in the greatness of whatever is being described. Fundamentally, British people are not convinced of the superiority of much in this country.

If British people in general were truly convinced of the superiority of all things British, most of us would drive British cars, eat at restaurants serving British food, drink traditional British ales, and go on holiday at British resorts - at least most the time.

So ... no ... it's not the same as the attitude that I perceive in some of my French friends. Not at all.

They are smart people nevertheless. Like building the A380, let alone Airbus itself, exporting Renault management to Japan, the province of Quebec keeping Canada at bay...