Midwest Airlines Midwest Miles - Is YX a virtual airline?

From BizTimes.com:

http://www.biztimes.com/blogs/milwaukee-biz-blog/2009/10/14/you-dont-have-a-hometown-airline-anymore

As Reichart mentioned in the article, Republic will take control of the YX code (release their RW code) and also take control of Midwest's 453 ticket stock. It would seem that Republic is becoming Midwest.

The whole thing is kinda tricky, Midwest's certificate is gone but their airline code, name and ticket stock remain but the flights are operated by Republic.

Even if it does become a "virtual" airline, is that necessarily a good or bad thing? I mean, does it really matter in the whole scheme of things, from the perspective of a traveler?

Even if it does become a "virtual" airline, is that necessarily a good or bad thing? I mean, does it really matter in the whole scheme of things, from the perspective of a traveler?

It may not matter to the uninformed traveler, however, it should matter to the business community and local politicians. DEN tied their proposed economic offer to an increase in jobs. DEN obviously sees through RJET's scheme of taking, but not necessarily delivering value back to the community. On the other hand, the MMAC blindly is still buying everything RJET is dishing out.

It may not matter to the uninformed traveler, however, it should matter to the business community and local politicians. DEN tied their proposed economic offer to an increase in jobs. DEN obviously sees through RJET's scheme of taking, but not necessarily delivering value back to the community. On the other hand, the MMAC blindly is still buying everything RJET is dishing out.

I can see your point on this. The MMAC does semm to be somewhat blindy following Republic, and does not appear to be as involved in AirTran or other carriers. People in Wisconsin are sometimes loyal to a fault when it comes to supporting local businesses.

On the other hand, you can't blame the MMAC for supporting a business that still employs a fair number of people. And a lot of the MMAC's members still rely on Midwest for business travel.

It should also be pointed out that, other than Milwaukee County's efforts to help Midwest avoid bankruptcy several years ago, no government handouts have been given to Republic in Milwaukee.

I can see your point on this. The MMAC does semm to be somewhat blindy following Republic, and does not appear to be as involved in AirTran or other carriers. People in Wisconsin are sometimes loyal to a fault when it comes to supporting local businesses.

On the other hand, you can't blame the MMAC for supporting a business that still employs a fair number of people. And a lot of the MMAC's members still rely on Midwest for business travel.

It should also be pointed out that, other than Milwaukee County's efforts to help Midwest avoid bankruptcy several years ago, no government handouts have been given to Republic in Milwaukee.

As noted by the Small Business Times in an interview with aviation consultant, Mr. Boyd - "Boyd said Milwaukee's chances of landing those jobs are slim because Republic is headquartered in Indianapolis and it has significantly scaled back its business operations in Milwaukee.

"If it's going to go anywhere it's going to go to Indianapolis," Boyd recently told the Indianapolis Star."

AirTran and soon Southwest will employee a fair number of Milwaukee area residents, possibly larger than the number RJET will employ here. Equal opportunity should be given to AirTran and Southwest. The MMAC should not be so influenced by one airline. Do the MMAC members fly other airlines as well? Didn't the MMAC and Milwaukee County try to solicit the other airlines to come to Milwaukee when they thought Midwest would go bankrupt? Midwest is no longer a hometown airline in any sense. It is a virtual airline. Now the MMAC is playing favorites.

As noted by the Small Business Times in an interview with aviation consultant, Mr. Boyd - "Boyd said Milwaukee's chances of landing those jobs are slim because Republic is headquartered in Indianapolis and it has significantly scaled back its business operations in Milwaukee.

"If it's going to go anywhere it's going to go to Indianapolis," Boyd recently told the Indianapolis Star."


Yes, Boyd did say that. But I think he may have forgotten that the YX hangar at MKE is in the running to see increased maintenance work, as it has been speculated that it is the frontrunner to handle F9 maintenance. Right now, it is my understanding that F9 leases space at DEN from CO. Republic might be moving that to Milwaukee, where it already owns a maintenance hangar.

AirTran and soon Southwest will employee a fair number of Milwaukee area residents, possibly larger than the number RJET will employ here. Equal opportunity should be given to AirTran and Southwest. The MMAC should not be so influenced by one airline. Do the MMAC members fly other airlines as well? Didn't the MMAC and Milwaukee County try to solicit the other airlines to come to Milwaukee when they thought Midwest would go bankrupt? Midwest is no longer a hometown airline in any sense. It is a virtual airline. Now the MMAC is playing favorites.


That's absurd. The MMAC is not playing favorites at all. They want jobs in Milwaukee. It's as simple as that.

Even if you combine the the number of employees that AirTran and Southwest have in MKE, it wouldn't come close to matching what Republic will be retaining in Milwaukee. Regardless, if AirTran and/or Southwest wanted to undertake a major expansion that would create hundreds of new jobs, the MMAC would definately be involved in putting together a set of incentives for either carrier.

Frankly, groups like the MMAC and Wisconsin in general have done a very poor job in retaining and/or recruiting companies to the state. It's about time that they step up to the plate and start competing with some of these other states.

Right now, it is my understanding that F9 leases space at DEN from CO. Republic might be moving that to Milwaukee, where it already owns a maintenance hangar.

Correct. Frontier had plans to build a new maintenance facility in COS, but those plans were scrapped during bankruptcy. Those jobs were moving from DEN regardless.

Republic now owns a state-of-the-art, barely used maintenance facility in MKE.

Does it make more sense financially/operationally to perform this type of work in MKE or IND (where Republic also has a maintenance base)?

Isn't there also a RJET maintenance facility in Columbus?

Yes we have a large MX facility in CMH. We also have them in every base and most hubs that we fly to. CMH, PIT and IND are our heavy MX cities

Boyd has shown himself to be a buffoon repeatedly over the years. He's far more concerned with getting snarky sound bites out to the media than concerning himself with facts. As such, he's got to have a strong and sexy opinion on everything when the phone rings, regardless of his background knowledge. His opinions are shoot first, don't even both with questions later.

This is a fine example.

Boyd dismisses out of hand the possibility that anything could come to MKE based on the simple statement that Midwest no longer exists - cased closed. He pretty much decided that Midwest was dead years ago, and that has pretty much colored his sound-bite-statements on every Midwest-related question since.

His mind is made up, but he doesn't care to consider factors like these:

--Republic now has major facilities in Milwaukee which are pretty much unused now that the 717's are departing.

--Sending jobs to Milwaukee could be a shot in the arm for the position of the Republic subsidiary Midwest in their main market. There's no such boost from moving the jobs to Indianapolis because there is no "Republic" brand in IND to receive that boost.

--Republic has shown something of a "cost above all else" focus, and although they have stated they're not trying to get into a bidding war, they are clearly looking to see what kind of deal DEN, MKE and IND will give them.


None of this is an assurance that the work will come to MKE. Of course not. But all three of those are clearly reasons that suggest MKE is not to be dmissed out of hand.

Isn't there also a RJET maintenance facility in Columbus?

As cwe84 mentioned, Republic does have a heavy maintenance facility in Columbus.

Besides the obvious financial impact, part of the decision surrounding where the Frontier jobs end-up may have to do with the ability to rotate aircraft in-and-out of the airport. Frontier has no service to either PIT or CMH. Midwest does, but neither route requires the frequency/capacity of an E190 or Airbus on a regular basis. Of course, both cities could be added from DEN but would hardly make sense if the only reason was to have aircraft serviced. Looking at it from this standpoint, MKE and IND make the most sense.

If you believe what has been reported in the media, Indiana has apparently but together a comprehensive package of economic incentives to lure all of those jobs to the state. Indiana has been very aggressive in encouraging businesses to either relocate or expand in the state and has had some pretty notable successes in recent years. Plus, they can afford to dish out money as Indiana is one of the few states currently operating in the black.

Milwaukee definately has a number of advantages to offer Republic, but I certainly wouldn't say they are the front-runner.

As cwe84 mentioned, Republic does have a heavy maintenance facility in Columbus.

Besides the obvious financial impact, part of the decision surrounding where the Frontier jobs end-up may have to do with the ability to rotate aircraft in-and-out of the airport. Frontier has no service to either PIT or CMH. Midwest does, but neither route requires the frequency/capacity of an E190 or Airbus on a regular basis. Of course, both cities could be added from DEN but would hardly make sense if the only reason was to have aircraft serviced. Looking at it from this standpoint, MKE and IND make the most sense.

If you believe what has been reported in the media, Indiana has apparently but together a comprehensive package of economic incentives to lure all of those jobs to the state. Indiana has been very aggressive in encouraging businesses to either relocate or expand in the state and has had some pretty notable successes in recent years. Plus, they can afford to dish out money as Indiana is one of the few states currently operating in the black.

Milwaukee definately has a number of advantages to offer Republic, but I certainly wouldn't say they are the front-runner.

Without getting too political here ever since former Wisconsin Governor Lee Dreyfus said the state should never have a surplus, that very statement has given all aspects of Wisconsin Government the license to keep spending and running a deficit. God rest Lee's soul, but he should have never said that. I think running a surplus would give us wiggle room in offering incentives to companies to locate here and probably would keep taxes from going up year after year. With that said, I agree Milwaukee and Wisconsin have a disadvantage when competing with a state like Indiana for jobs based on taxes and infrastructure alone. But if Republic brings jobs to Milwaukee it will boost the Midwest brand and foster more loyalty to fly Midwest. Just my two cents.

Boyd has shown himself to be a buffoon repeatedly over the years. He's far more concerned with getting snarky sound bites out to the media than concerning himself with facts. As such, he's got to have a strong and sexy opinion on everything when the phone rings, regardless of his background knowledge. His opinions are shoot first, don't even both with questions later.

Knope, your Midwest bias is showing. Nothing is important other than the bottom-line cost.

IMO it does not matter about the existing maintenance facility in MKE, community good-will does not matter, whichever city coughs up the most government subsidy money and incentives will get the jobs.

Knope, your Midwest bias is showing. Nothing is important other than the bottom-line cost.

IMO it does not matter about the existing maintenance facility in MKE, community good-will does not matter, whichever city coughs up the most government subsidy money and incentives will get the jobs.

That isn't necessarily true. If bottom-line cost was the only thing that mattered then no company would pay benefits. If it were so black and white people would get paid the absolute legal minimum. There are companies out there that go above and beyond because they understand that there is more to life than the bottom-line and goodwill and loyalty have value on something other than the balance sheets. Just look at the top rated companies to work for. They understand the value of what I am talking about.

IMO it does not matter about the existing maintenance facility in MKE, community good-will does not matter, whichever city coughs up the most government subsidy money and incentives will get the jobs.

I've spoken with someone internally at Frontier HQ who stated that part of rebuilding the Midwest brand in Milwaukee was improved community relations, and they are well aware of the damage the brand has withstood recently. Increasing Milwaukee employment is one of the items under consideration.

That's absolutely no assurance more jobs will come to Milwaukee. But to dismiss it as not being among the multiple factors in this decision is off the mark.

Is YX a virtual airline?
answer = Yes

And one that let thousands of their loyal employees go. The pilots and the flight attendants made Midwest the best care in the air. Now it's just a patchwork system of regional jets and frontier planes. :td:


The best care in the air is Virgin America

But Tim even if it is as you say it is still a good combination. Frontier jets are nice. Gotta love the IFE. Then you are talking about a growing fleet of EJets powered by Republic. Another good product. It is still a superior product over what many of the legacies offer domestically. I think when the dust settles the final product will look something like a blend of Frontier and Midwest. That is a product worth using.

But Tim even if it is as you say it is still a good combination. Frontier jets are nice. Gotta love the IFE. Then you are talking about a growing fleet of EJets powered by Republic. Another good product. It is still a superior product over what many of the legacies offer domestically. I think when the dust settles the final product will look something like a blend of Frontier and Midwest. That is a product worth using.
It may be worth something, but it is not that great. You want great service try Virgin. Wifi, mood lighting, amazing first class, TVs and power ports.

Also, it does not make up for what they did to their employees. I am not saying that other airlines do not have problems with their unions, but basically letting go all of your local FAs and pilots and then pretending to be the "hometown airline" is just two-faced.

I guess that the nice thing about living in Seattle is that I have so many choices when it comes to airlines. Virgin, Alaska, WN, Jetblue, Airtran just to name a few.

It may be worth something, but it is not that great. You want great service try Virgin. Wifi, mood lighting, amazing first class, TVs and power ports.

Also, it does not make up for what they did to their employees. I am not saying that other airlines do not have problems with their unions, but basically letting go all of your local FAs and pilots and then pretending to be the "hometown airline" is just two-faced.

I guess that the nice thing about living in Seattle is that I have so many choices when it comes to airlines. Virgin, Alaska, WN, Jetblue, Airtran just to name a few.

I would LOVE to try Virgin. I've seen pics and I'd pay a third more for their coach product. But unfortunately IND doesn't have their service and I doubt we will ever get it.

As for the Midwest employees.... it goes both ways. Lets not forget what the flight attendants were pulling after the 9/11 attacks. They were threatening to strike.

"The flight attendants are protesting to inform board members about their contract dispute with the airline management, and to show their willingness to strike if the contract negotiations are not settled."

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-85040676.html

A less than classy move given the horrible condition of the industry after the attacks. That is in my opinion what began the demise of Midwest as everyone knew and loved it. We can debate forever if that was the straw that broke the camels back or not but it certainly was a player.

So you could say both sides are even now.

It may be worth something, but it is not that great. You want great service try Virgin. Wifi, mood lighting, amazing first class, TVs and power ports.

Also, it does not make up for what they did to their employees. I am not saying that other airlines do not have problems with their unions, but basically letting go all of your local FAs and pilots and then pretending to be the "hometown airline" is just two-faced.

I guess that the nice thing about living in Seattle is that I have so many choices when it comes to airlines. Virgin, Alaska, WN, Jetblue, Airtran just to name a few.

Other than the mood lighting, you may see many of these options on future YX/F9 flights. The LIve TV is already on F9, Midwest is looking at installing wi-fi, and power ports could be part of that package. Midwest still has some premium seating left and there's the cookies. Don't ever forget the cookies :D

Other than the mood lighting, you may see many of these options on future YX/F9 flights. The LIve TV is already on F9, Midwest is looking at installing wi-fi, and power ports could be part of that package. Midwest still has some premium seating left and there's the cookies. Don't ever forget the cookies :D
Will they have seat to seat chat?

Midwest will never be Virgin:D

"Midwest" is a hodgepodge of regional airlines and a LCC masquerading as Midwest Airlines. It is much like kids dressing up for Halloween. I thought that analogy was appropiate considering the time of the year and the fact that the replacement flight crews are not that far removed from dressing up for candy. They know dress up for their "Midwest" flight crew replacement jobs. Yes, "Midwest" is a virtual airline in every definition of the word.

Will they have seat to seat chat?


I sure hope not.

I sure hope not.

"Midwest" is a hodgepodge of regional airlines and a LCC masquerading as Midwest Airlines. It is much like kids dressing up for Halloween. I thought that analogy was appropiate considering the time of the year and the fact that the replacement flight crews are not that far removed from dressing up for candy. They know dress up for their "Midwest" flight crew replacement jobs. Yes, "Midwest" is a virtual airline in every definition of the word.

I smelll an AirTran plant in here. Not the first time this has happened either. :rolleyes:

I smelll an AirTran plant in here. Not the first time this has happened either. :rolleyes:

Why do you say that?

This is the Midwest Airlines board...Most people on this board are based in Milwaukee or Kansas City or some small airport that is served by Midwest...Not all, but most and Virgin will never serve these cities....Your are talking about an airline that serves an amount of cities that I can count on 2 hands (BOS, NYC, Wash DC, SEA, SFO, Las Vegas, LA, San Diego, Orange County)...That's it, why even bring them up????

By looking at their route map they could care less about the center part of this country.

This is the Midwest Airlines board...Most people on this board are based in Milwaukee or Kansas City or some small airport that is served by Midwest...Not all, but most and Virgin will never serve these cities....Your are talking about an airline that serves an amount of cities that I can count on 2 hands (BOS, NYC, Wash DC, SEA, SFO, Las Vegas, LA, San Diego, Orange County)...That's it, why even bring them up????

By looking at their route map they could care less about the center part of this country.

First of all, unless you work for Virgin I would not be making those type of definitive statements. Virgin just asked for 10 more planes. Granted I can not see them fighting for gates in MKE but ORD/MDW is on the top of their radar. Lots of MKE people use ORD/MDW in search of non-stop flights. I use to fly Southwest into Midway all the time to avoid Northwest and Midwest's high fares. MSP is also a good market for Virgin.

Also people do do multi-city trips in which they use multiple airlines

You are acting like people only fly from MKE to a destination and do not do more traveling. How would one fly from MKE to LAX and then on to SFO without changing airlines?

I smelll an AirTran plant in here. Not the first time this has happened either. :rolleyes:

You and your conspiracy theories.:D I doubt people at Airtran care at all about these boards. Do you ever think that Airtran could convince people like Knope or Blue to sign up for A+ rewards? I don't think so. No offense guys it is just not your thing. Their is nothing wrong with that. We are hardliners who are set in our ways and care about the airline industry. ( I hate generalizations but I think that we can agree on this) The general public could care less about the things that we argue about.

Virgin just asked for 10 more planes. Granted I can not see them fighting for gates in MKE but ORD/MDW is on the top of their radar.

Never say never. Who would have ever thought we would see Midwest, Southwest, AirTran and Delta doing battle in MKE?

Do you ever think that Airtran could convince people like Knope or Blue to sign up for A+ rewards? I don't think so.

Then you think wrong. I have an A+ account.

I'm glad the Tim34 of 2007 has returned.

Do you ever think that Airtran could convince people like Knope or Blue to sign up for A+ rewards? I don't think so.

I am also an A+ rewards member, although I have only flown FL a couple of times.

Then you think wrong. I have an A+ account.

I'm glad the Tim34 of 2007 has returned.

I am pleasantly surprised. How often do you fly Airtran?

Never say never. Who would have ever thought we would see Midwest, Southwest, AirTran and Delta doing battle in MKE?

That is a good point. Maybe in 10 years

I am also an A+ rewards member, although I have only flown FL a couple of times.

I am also an A+ rewards member, although I have only flown FL a couple of times.

Where to and what where your experiences like? Also how often do you fly Airtran instead of flying Midwest?

You and your conspiracy theories.:D I doubt people at Airtran care at all about these boards. Do you ever think that Airtran could convince people like Knope or Blue to sign up for A+ rewards? I don't think so. No offense guys it is just not your thing. Their is nothing wrong with that. We are hardliners who are set in our ways and care about the airline industry. ( I hate generalizations but I think that we can agree on this) The general public could care less about the things that we argue about.

Airline employees find value in following these forums... they would be stupid to ignore a website like this. During AirTran's hostile takeover attempt of Midwest there were at least two posters here that probably were employees of AirTran. I suspect one was at the executive level. They no longer post here because their point is moot now. But they sure did argue AirTran's position until they were blue in the face. ;)

Airline employees find value in following these forums... they would be stupid to ignore a website like this. During AirTran's hostile takeover attempt of Midwest there were at least two posters here that probably were employees of AirTran. I suspect one was at the executive level. They no longer post here because their point is moot now. But they sure did argue AirTran's position until they were blue in the face. ;)

I hope that you are wrong because that seems like a waste of time.

I am pleasantly surprised. How often do you fly Airtran?

I flew them once several years ago on STL-ATL because decent connections weren't available on United or Midwest.

Being that I'm a 1k on United I wouldn't even really consider flying AirTran (especially not work work as they are not a preferred vendor) unless there was a very compelling reason. I try to fly Midwest when I can, but much of my travel is international these days.

I hope that you are wrong because that seems like a waste of time.

I don't think it is a waste of time for an airline to know what their frequent flyers are doing and thinking. I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on this.

Many of us carry the A+ rewards card and A+ Signature Visa.

I still haven't forgotten what Midwest did to us in 2008. The only positive result was scrapping the MD-80s.

I hope that you are wrong because that seems like a waste of time.

Not a waste at all. Airlines monitor these forums closely to gauge what people are saying about their companies. Many posters on FlyerTalk are some of the most frequent travelers around and the airlines value their opinions a great deal. The feedback and candid opinions posted here can provide a great deal of free insight on a number of topics such as frequent flier programs, promotions, service in premium cabins, etc.

Both Continental and United have dedicated individuals that regularly post in their respective forums. There are several individuals at Midwest the actively monitor (and sometimes post) on this board.

The importance of social media sights grows everday.

Many of us carry the A+ rewards card and A+ Signature Visa.

I, too, am a member of A+ rewards and the A+ Signature Visa. I also carry the Midwest Visa, and the US Bank FlexPerks Visa (formerly the NWA WorldPerks Visa). The FlexPerks card is a very powerful travel rewards card actually. I have been pleasantly surprised.

I also belong to the following frequent flyer programs: YX, DL/NW, WN, CO, AA, UA. I'll be flying UA this weekend actually.

I flew them once several years ago on STL-ATL because decent connections weren't available on United or Midwest.

Being that I'm a 1k on United I wouldn't even really consider flying AirTran (especially not work work as they are not a preferred vendor) unless there was a very compelling reason. I try to fly Midwest when I can, but much of my travel is international these days.

I forgot to mention my wife has top tier status with American and Starwood (I have top status with Hilton). As a result, we normally limit our travel to select airlines.

This has caused a few disagreements over the years when making travel plans! Midwest has been the tie breaker more than a few times.

Only a FlyerTalker would understand....

Where to and what where your experiences like? Also how often do you fly Airtran instead of flying Midwest?

Between MKE and ATL when Midwest isn't available, including a YX cancel reroute, although that was back before the interline agreement was severed. The onboard has been okay, although the 717 coach pitch is really tight.

As for airline brass spending time online on message boards, there's a definite precident that direction. For about 8 years, the Yahoo message board for Wild Oats Foods included regular harsh posts by a user who turned out to be John Mackey, the CEO of Whole Foods who eventually bought Wild Oats out at a bargain. The airline industry as much or more "geeked up" as any industry, and people with jet fuel in their veins who work in the industry are prime candidates for online airline communities.

Between MKE and ATL when Midwest isn't available, including a YX cancel reroute, although that was back before the interline agreement was severed. The onboard has been okay, although the 717 coach pitch is really tight.

As for airline brass spending time online on message boards, there's a definite precident that direction. For about 8 years, the Yahoo message board for Wild Oats Foods included regular harsh posts by a user who turned out to be John Mackey, the CEO of Whole Foods who eventually bought Wild Oats out at a bargain. The airline industry as much or more "geeked up" as any industry, and people with jet fuel in their veins who work in the industry are prime candidates for online airline communities.

Who knows...maybe Tim34 is secretly working up a plan to buy Virgin America. ;)

Very funny!

Seriously, I don't mean to suggest that these boards are some direct pipeline into the nerve centers of airline management. But I do think that there are sometimes eyes on a lot of message boards either officially or unofficially.

My comment about Virgin America not caring about middle America was a reflection of their route map...I had no insight into their strategy or plans.

If they do make it into Chicago (ORD, I am not battling Chicago's traffic to get down to Midway) I may try them out. I often do go down to ORD for International flights (Mainly been loyal to American on those) to avoid the short connection from MKE....Another reason being that after an international trip it almost feels like you are home when you hop in your car at O'Hare, even though you have an hour or so drive after that.

I am not a A+ member, but this is mainly because of selfish reasons...I dont want to start over...I have built up a good relationship with my gate agents in Boston and really have not been upset with the service that I have received from the Republic crews...When I have run into trouble it has been fixed immediately and as a customer that is all I can ask for...There will always be problems, it is a matter of how well they are dealt with.

I just read the transcript for AirTran's Q3 results and I had to laugh about how they bash Midwest during the call. I love what Kevin Healy said in regards to the Milwaukee expansion.

So we are taking the step. The step began in the spring, and it continues through the fall, and we’ll see what would happens. We’ll give it a year.

We'll give it a year? They are already giving themselves an easy out if things don't go well in MKE.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/167968-airtran-holdings-inc-q3-2009-earnings-call-transcript?source=yahoo&page=7

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/10/airtran-offers-an-opinion-on-m.html

We'll give it a year? They are already giving themselves an easy out if things don't go well in MKE.


I don't see that as an easy out. They shouldn't bleed themselves dry for the sake of MKE. The market isn't big enough for YX/F9 and FL. One of them will go. I've always felt as if 2010 would be the year that FL likely pulls back. Maybe after the summer schedule. They have 2 gate leases that expire sometime during the summer. Either they are going to re-up those leases and move forward or they are going to let them expire and move on to a different market.

I have no doubt that if FL continues to expand and dump good money over bad in MKE that Republic will pull the YX hub. It would be bad business to keep the hub under those circumstances. Bedford is smarter than that. He doesn't need MKE to survive. If there are signs that FL is going to cut back then he'll move forward. If that doesn't happen then he will pull out.

I know it isn't pleasant but that is business. The market just cannot support that level of service.

I don't see that as an easy out. They shouldn't bleed themselves dry for the sake of MKE. The market isn't big enough for YX/F9 and FL. One of them will go. I've always felt as if 2010 would be the year that FL likely pulls back. Maybe after the summer schedule. They have 2 gate leases that expire sometime during the summer. Either they are going to re-up those leases and move forward or they are going to let them expire and move on to a different market.

I have no doubt that if FL continues to expand and dump good money over bad in MKE that Republic will pull the YX hub. It would be bad business to keep the hub under those circumstances. Bedford is smarter than that. He doesn't need MKE to survive. If there are signs that FL is going to cut back then he'll move forward. If that doesn't happen then he will pull out.

I know it isn't pleasant but that is business. The market just cannot support that level of service.

Who says these carriers can't exist together? The market is bigger than you think. Don't forget that the Chicago metro has nearly 10 million people...the northern suburbs alone have 2 million. Plus there is more than 2 million in the Milwaukee/Madison areas.

Granted someone may decide to scale back a bit, but to think that YX or FL would just pack up and leave is a little extreme.

Who says these carriers can't exist together? The market is bigger than you think. Don't forget that the Chicago metro has nearly 10 million people...the northern suburbs alone have 2 million. Plus there is more than 2 million in the Milwaukee/Madison areas.

Granted someone may decide to scale back a bit, but to think that YX or FL would just pack up and leave is a little extreme.

I think you can forget about the Chicago market. It hasn't made a difference in decades past and I doubt it will make a difference now. MKE traffic has never been spectacular even with the YX hub operating at full strength. FL isn't going to change that. The two carriers still have to compete over a pretty small piece of pie. Sorry but MKE is just far enough away that ORD is still more convenient to the Chicago market. I don't think that many people are going to deal with the traffic around there to drive all the way up to MKE when every nonstop they could ever want is in ORD or MDW. The MKE traffic numbers over the past few decades speak for themselves.

I think you can forget about the Chicago market. It hasn't made a difference in decades past and I doubt it will make a difference now. MKE traffic has never been spectacular even with the YX hub operating at full strength. FL isn't going to change that. The two carriers still have to compete over a pretty small piece of pie. Sorry but MKE is just far enough away that ORD is still more convenient to the Chicago market. I don't think that many people are going to deal with the traffic around there to drive all the way up to MKE when every nonstop they could ever want is in ORD or MDW. The MKE traffic numbers over the past few decades speak for themselves.

The only way to count IL travelers at MKE is to count Illinois license plates at the parking facilities, and there has been a considerable increase in the past year.

It should also be pointed out that traffic at MKE in September was up 16% from the previous September, according to airport administration. This is impressive during a recession, and even more impressive when you factor in that this year's September total was even higher than it was in September of 2007, before the recession started.

Southwest will improve that dynamic even more. As I have said before, there are a number of people in Chicago that will only fly Southwest, and they have been asking Southwest to come to MKE for years.

As for the traffic, for people who live in the northern suburbs of Chicago, it's faster and cheaper to use Mitchell than O'Hare. Have you ever made the drive? I have many times. MKE is closer, has fewer flight delays, and has cheaper parking. MKE's stats reflect a growing trend of Illinois travelers using Mitchell.

I just read the transcript for AirTran's Q3 results and I had to laugh about how they bash Midwest during the call. I love what Kevin Healy said in regards to the Milwaukee expansion.

"You do have the Midwest airlines trying to resurrect itself. If you look at the results for the first half of the year, even in a low fuel environment, they have some pretty disappointing margins if you look at kind of where the pretax margins where for the first six months of the year"

I learn more about Air Tran from this board than the Air Tran board ;). It's good that Air Tran has its eye on the ball as it were - i.e. the competition. Air Tran has the cost structure to compete against the likes of Midwest (Delta-lite).

Next year will be interesting - no more hiding behind TPG for Midwest.

"You do have the Midwest airlines trying to resurrect itself. If you look at the results for the first half of the year, even in a low fuel environment, they have some pretty disappointing margins if you look at kind of where the pretax margins where for the first six months of the year"

I learn more about Air Tran from this board than the Air Tran board ;). It's good that Air Tran has its eye on the ball as it were - i.e. the competition. Air Tran has the cost structure to compete against the likes of Midwest (Delta-lite).

Next year will be interesting - no more hiding behind TPG for Midwest.

No more Delta-lite for you! :) It is Frontier/Midwest backed by Republic now. I am not sure how long the Midwest experiment will last for Republic but I do know people in MKE and MCI still love Midwest the airline even if some call it a virtual airline.... The brand still commands loyalty. Republic has a window of opportunity for Midwest and I believe they will play their cards right. AirTran sees a big unknown in MKE right now and they have to be a little bit worried. Southwest will start up ops pretty soon and Midwest is in the midst of a major restoration. "We'll give it a year" statement says that and more. Kevin Healy and friends seem to be a little unsure about future competition at MKE to say the least.

The only way to count IL travelers at MKE is to count Illinois license plates at the parking facilities, and there has been a considerable increase in the past year.

Southwest will improve that dynamic even more. As I have said before, there are a number of people in Chicago that will only fly Southwest, and they have been asking Southwest to come to MKE for years.

As for the traffic, for people who live in the northern suburbs of Chicago, it's faster and cheaper to use Mitchell than O'Hare. Have you ever made the drive? I have many times. MKE is closer, has fewer flight delays, and has cheaper parking. MKE's stats reflect a growing trend of Illinois travelers using Mitchell.

There is a campaign to attract IL travelers to MKE.

Gimmicks, such as http://www.flymke.com/files/images/MKEparkingcoupon.pdf

and good press...

With airfares out of MKE this fall an average of 29 percent lower than last year, nationally recognized MSNBC travel writer Chris Elliott recently ranked MKE atop his list of “top five least expensive destinations for fall travel.” are part of the effort to lure travelers from across the border.

I just read the transcript for AirTran's Q3 results and I had to laugh about how they bash Midwest during the call. I love what Kevin Healy said in regards to the Milwaukee expansion.



Very classy of AirTran. I find it amusing that they have felt the need to trash Midwest during every earnings conference call since 2007.

As for AirTran's MKE operations, it's hard to say what the future holds. I do find Kevin Healy's comments about giving the MKE hub "another year" to be an interesting choice of words. While I don't expect a full scale retreat, it wouldn't be surprising to see AirTran dump many of the underperforming routes (BOS/LGA/DCA/IND/PIT/MSP/STL) after next summer or fly them seasonally instead.

The competitive landscape in MKE has changed significantly since this spring and AirTran has to be somewhat concerned about Republic and Southwest crashing the party.

The only way to count IL travelers at MKE is to count Illinois license plates at the parking facilities, and there has been a considerable increase in the past year.

It should also be pointed out that traffic at MKE in September was up 16% from the previous September, according to airport administration. This is impressive during a recession, and even more impressive when you factor in that this year's September total was even higher than it was in September of 2007, before the recession started.

Southwest will improve that dynamic even more. As I have said before, there are a number of people in Chicago that will only fly Southwest, and they have been asking Southwest to come to MKE for years.

As for the traffic, for people who live in the northern suburbs of Chicago, it's faster and cheaper to use Mitchell than O'Hare. Have you ever made the drive? I have many times. MKE is closer, has fewer flight delays, and has cheaper parking. MKE's stats reflect a growing trend of Illinois travelers using Mitchell.

The MKE market is saturated. Just too much capacity. Numbers might be higher but look at what happened last year. Deep recession and issues with YX. Now they are rebounding and you have FL running some feed through MKE. Those will prop up numbers. But don't believe for a minute that MKE can support significant growth. It cannot. The market just isn't strong enough for it. And perhaps a few people right now make the drive because of the terrible state of the economy and even a few dollars matter. But as the economy recovers and gas prices go up that will go away.

Sorry but MKE is a dead growth market. It has been for decades. It isn't as bad as PIT with negative population growth but it is still very weak. And it is still just too far from Chicago. And yes I've unfortunately made the drive too many times. Horrible traffic. I hate to spoil the party but this is about as good as things are going to get at MKE. Maybe a little more growth as the economy recovers. They may get back to 2005 or 2006 levels but thats it. And you can bank on it that they will lose either FL or YX/F9. At least as a hub. The market can sustain only 1.

And it is still just too far from Chicago. And yes I've unfortunately made the drive too many times. Horrible traffic.

Google maps:

Gurnee, IL to ORD airport: 38 minutes (up to 45 minutes in traffic)

Gurnee, IL to MKE airport: 47 minutes

You're telling me that MKE is too far, but ORD isn't?

And don't try to tell me that the traffic in rural Wisconsin is as bad as the traffic around O'Hare. During rush hour it routinely takes 1-2 hours to get anywhere in the Chicago metro area. I'm sure BlueHorseShoe can attest to that. Perhaps that's why he doesn't mind making the drive from Chicago to MKE often.

Sorry but MKE is a dead growth market. It has been for decades. It isn't as bad as PIT with negative population growth but it is still very weak. And it is still just too far from Chicago. And yes I've unfortunately made the drive too many times. Horrible traffic. I hate to spoil the party but this is about as good as things are going to get at MKE. Maybe a little more growth as the economy recovers. They may get back to 2005 or 2006 levels but thats it. And you can bank on it that they will lose either FL or YX/F9. At least as a hub. The market can sustain only 1.

You mistake metro population change for air traffic growth. Several issues with that.

(1) Metro population comparisons are often misleading because they are county-by-county, and the decision to include or not include a county in the official metro definition is not necessarily related to true population growth.

The five-county Milwaukee consolidated metro area was estimated to have grown about 67,727 people between 2000 and 2007...about 4.1%...from 1,671,770 to 1,739,497. Three adjacent counties are candidates to be added to Milwaukee's consolidated metro area because they are increasingly sending commuters into metro Milwaukee. If the census bureau decides to include those counties as part of "metro Milwaukee", the population will increase to 2,019,923. The decision up or down on adding those three counties to "Milwaukee" means the difference between 4.1% or 20.8% growth over the seven-year period even though the number of people in the region is the same no matter their decision. Decisions like that can paint metro Milwaukee as slow growth or suprisingly large growth.

Basing metro population on conunites "rewards" communities with more sprawl than communities which remain more compact...sprawl based on diffuse population rather than sprawl to handle people moving to the community. It always rewards places with bigger counties in land area. If the counties in southeastern Wisconsin were not so physically small, metro Milwaukee would likely be 2.0+ million already because communities today in adjacent counties would be part of metro Milwaukee.

The point of this is that looking at the periodic reports on metro population change is often very misleading. Milwaukee's hinterland is not growing rapidly, but it's not flat and it's not as dramatically different from many comparable communities outside of the sunbelt.

(2) Population change is not an especially good marker of air traffic change. You're in the Indianpolis area, which is seeing more total population growth than the Milwaukee area has. In the past ten years, IND's traffic increased 11.97% but Milwaukee's has increased 43.73%. It's not population change alone.

(3) Milwaukee has for years experienced heavy traffic leakage to Chicago, back in the 80's estimated to be about 25%. As air service at Milwaukee has become more competitive in schedule and fare, some of Milwaukee's growth has come from decreased leakage.

(4) The other side of the leakage coin is that as MKE steals more traffic from the hinterlands of Madison, Appleton, and Green Bay. Not that long ago, flying from MKE, MSN, ATW, or GRB often had similar fares and faced similar connections at ORD, DTW or MSP. Now that MKE has so many more nonstops and frequently better fares, they benefit at the expense of Madison, Green Bay, and Appleton's potential growth.

(5) Low fare stimulation is responsible for decent amount of the increased traffic, but more market stimulation is on the way. It's by no means an infinte traffic source, but it does represent a source of potential additional growth.

(6) Although Milwaukee has for more than 25 years worked hard to attract Chicago-area flyers, what is finally leading to more success is that Chicago is moving closer to Milwaukee. The three northernmost counties of metro Chicago (Lake, Kenosha, McHenry) have added nearly 370,000 more people since 1990, to just under 1.2 million. That population is largely affluent, too. Lake County is usually in the top tier of wealthies counties in the country.

(7) Airports serve more passengers than the local markets, and Midwest and AirTran both funnel significant traffic through Milwaukee, and even some of Southwest's 12 trips are thru flights in city pairs like BWI-MKE-LAS and MCI-MKE-MCO. Some of what appears to be excessive capacity increase will go instead to serving more connecting and thru traffic.


In spite of all this, I do agree that Milwaukee seems in line for overcapacity until some things shake out here. We're not looking at anything anywhere close to UA/WN/F9 in Denver, or even DL/WN in Salt Lake. But it's difficult for more than one airline to succeed with a hub in most places, and having Southwest in the game...not as a hubbing airline but as a high-volume traffic siphon, only makes it more difficult. But to dismiss Milwaukee as a dead-growth market is misguided.

Google maps:

Gurnee, IL to ORD airport: 38 minutes (up to 45 minutes in traffic)

Gurnee, IL to MKE airport: 47 minutes

You're telling me that MKE is too far, but ORD isn't?

And don't try to tell me that the traffic in rural Wisconsin is as bad as the traffic around O'Hare. During rush hour it routinely takes 1-2 hours to get anywhere in the Chicago metro area. I'm sure BlueHorseShoe can attest to that. Perhaps that's why he doesn't mind making the drive from Chicago to MKE often.

If a Northern suburb flyer is willing to look at MDW, then they certainly should be looking at MKE. For me, the actual driving time to MKE is only slightly longer than to MDW during non-rush hour and less during rush hour.

You mistake metro population change for air traffic growth. Several issues with that.

(2) Population change is not an especially good marker of air traffic change. You're in the Indianpolis area, which is seeing more total population growth than the Milwaukee area has. In the past ten years, IND's traffic increased 11.97% but Milwaukee's has increased 43.73%. It's not population change alone.


Wow, great job with your analysis, Knope. I had some similar thoughts in mind, but your post is way more comprehensive than mine would have been.

The stats prove that market for air travel out of MKE has gone up considerably in the last ten years, for sure a lot more than IND has. MKE has been, and will likely continue to be, a growth airport. It's a pretty clear concept to understand.

You mistake metro population change for air traffic growth. Several issues with that.

(1) Metro population comparisons are often misleading because they are county-by-county, and the decision to include or not include a county in the official metro definition is not necessarily related to true population growth.

The five-county Milwaukee consolidated metro area was estimated to have grown about 67,727 people between 2000 and 2007...about 4.1%...from 1,671,770 to 1,739,497. Three adjacent counties are candidates to be added to Milwaukee's consolidated metro area because they are increasingly sending commuters into metro Milwaukee. If the census bureau decides to include those counties as part of "metro Milwaukee", the population will increase to 2,019,923. The decision up or down on adding those three counties to "Milwaukee" means the difference between 4.1% or 20.8% growth over the seven-year period even though the number of people in the region is the same no matter their decision. Decisions like that can paint metro Milwaukee as slow growth or suprisingly large growth.

Basing metro population on conunites "rewards" communities with more sprawl than communities which remain more compact...sprawl based on diffuse population rather than sprawl to handle people moving to the community. It always rewards places with bigger counties in land area. If the counties in southeastern Wisconsin were not so physically small, metro Milwaukee would likely be 2.0+ million already because communities today in adjacent counties would be part of metro Milwaukee.

The point of this is that looking at the periodic reports on metro population change is often very misleading. Milwaukee's hinterland is not growing rapidly, but it's not flat and it's not as dramatically different from many comparable communities outside of the sunbelt.

(2) Population change is not an especially good marker of air traffic change. You're in the Indianpolis area, which is seeing more total population growth than the Milwaukee area has. In the past ten years, IND's traffic increased 11.97% but Milwaukee's has increased 43.73%. It's not population change alone.

(3) Milwaukee has for years experienced heavy traffic leakage to Chicago, back in the 80's estimated to be about 25%. As air service at Milwaukee has become more competitive in schedule and fare, some of Milwaukee's growth has come from decreased leakage.

(4) The other side of the leakage coin is that as MKE steals more traffic from the hinterlands of Madison, Appleton, and Green Bay. Not that long ago, flying from MKE, MSN, ATW, or GRB often had similar fares and faced similar connections at ORD, DTW or MSP. Now that MKE has so many more nonstops and frequently better fares, they benefit at the expense of Madison, Green Bay, and Appleton's potential growth.

(5) Low fare stimulation is responsible for decent amount of the increased traffic, but more market stimulation is on the way. It's by no means an infinte traffic source, but it does represent a source of potential additional growth.

(6) Although Milwaukee has for more than 25 years worked hard to attract Chicago-area flyers, what is finally leading to more success is that Chicago is moving closer to Milwaukee. The three northernmost counties of metro Chicago (Lake, Kenosha, McHenry) have added nearly 370,000 more people since 1990, to just under 1.2 million. That population is largely affluent, too. Lake County is usually in the top tier of wealthies counties in the country.

(7) Airports serve more passengers than the local markets, and Midwest and AirTran both funnel significant traffic through Milwaukee, and even some of Southwest's 12 trips are thru flights in city pairs like BWI-MKE-LAS and MCI-MKE-MCO. Some of what appears to be excessive capacity increase will go instead to serving more connecting and thru traffic.


In spite of all this, I do agree that Milwaukee seems in line for overcapacity until some things shake out here. We're not looking at anything anywhere close to UA/WN/F9 in Denver, or even DL/WN in Salt Lake. But it's difficult for more than one airline to succeed with a hub in most places, and having Southwest in the game...not as a hubbing airline but as a high-volume traffic siphon, only makes it more difficult. But to dismiss Milwaukee as a dead-growth market is misguided.

In regards to your #1 it is only misleading in my opinion when new counties are added to a metro area to give the appearance of growth. Then there is the CSA and MSA game.

#2 is very misleading as well. In IND we've had the demise of ATA and the end of the NW/DL focus city while MKE has a hub and a half. But to compare apples to apples you have to look at O/D traffic not total traffic.

As for #3 it would seem to be a wash since people seem to believe there is leakage to MKE from Chicago.

I have no opinion one way or another on #4

I know what you mean by #5. We see it here at IND with the growth of traffic to RSW because of FL.

As for #6 you have to consider whether these people are going to be loyal to the Chicago airports or make the drive to MKE. I'm betting you'll find the more affluent people tend to stick to the local airports instead of making the drive to MKE. They will want all those nonstop options they are used to getting from ORD. And if they tend to travel a lot they will want the perks that come with the frequent flier programs of the legacies.

And as for #7 even if they funnel traffic the money maker has been and always will be local traffic. If local traffic didn't matter you could just hub in East Jesus, Nebraska. The lower the percentage of local traffic you have on your flights the less profitable they will become. It isn't an absolute but a pretty good benchmark.

We can try and dress MKE up to look better by including other markets within the state but reality is the Milwaukee metro area as I said is a dead growth market and has been for decades. It has added about 150,000 people in just under 40 years.

http://recenter.tamu.edu/Data/popm/pm5080.htm

The CSA population change is only slightly better with just over 175,000 added.

http://www.economagic.com/em-cgi/data.exe/beaci/8937620

The numbers speak for themselves. It is the reason MKE handled only just under 8 million passengers last year. I am curious about one thing. The stories you read on here would lead you to believe that MKE traffic has really jumped yet the states on the MKE website tell a different story. Are they talking about total arrivals and departures? Based on the MKE website 2009 will fall well below 2008 for passengers served.

http://www.mitchellairport.com/2009/2009vs2008_PAX_STAT.pdf

The -35.42% obviously isn't correct. The actual drop in traffic is 10.6%.

BTW I will admit I am shocked by those numbers. I expected something completely different.

The stats prove that market for air travel out of MKE has gone up considerably in the last ten years, for sure a lot more than IND has. MKE has been, and will likely continue to be, a growth airport. It's a pretty clear concept to understand.

IND hasn't had a hub to pad traffic numbers. Lets not confuse total passengers served with local market growth. If that were the case then PIT has totally imploded as a city.

Look at the last point in my last post. Where is the growth? Looks like a sharp decline in passengers served since 2008. I am puzzled by those numbers btw. I have a hard time believing that so many flights were added yet the passenger count is down over 10%.

IND hasn't had a hub to pad traffic numbers. Lets not confuse total passengers served with local market growth. If that were the case then PIT has totally imploded as a city.

Glad you've come around on this point. I initially thought you were mistakenly comparing metro size to the airport market. They are not always intertwined.


Look at the last point in my last post. Where is the growth? Looks like a sharp decline in passengers served since 2008. I am puzzled by those numbers btw. I have a hard time believing that so many flights were added yet the passenger count is down over 10%.

It's premature. Wait for the year-end numbers to be announced before comparing 2009 to 2008. Most airports nationwide will see a decline in traffic for the full-year 2009. But I do know that last month set a new record for September at MKE.

Just took a nice flight to PHX and back on "Virtual" YX. That "virtual" airline gave me a nice flight, BOB meal that was delicious, and an arrival and departure time that was "on time" Give me virtual any day.

It's premature. Wait for the year-end numbers to be announced before comparing 2009 to 2008. Most airports nationwide will see a decline in traffic for the full-year 2009. But I do know that last month set a new record for September at MKE.

It's important to remember how much capacity was cut from MKE last September. There were a lot less seats to many of the high-volume leisure markets. Many of the cuts weren't back-filled until this past summer. September 2009 also reflected some of the increased YX flying (LAX, SDF, MCO) that was cut last September.

It's important to remember how much capacity was cut from MKE last September. There were a lot less seats to many of the high-volume leisure markets. Many of the cuts weren't back-filled until this past summer. September 2009 also reflected some of the increased YX flying (LAX, SDF, MCO) that was cut last September.

Compared to last year, AirTran is continuing more of its routes into the fall. That can't hurt, either, especially if they funnel more traffic through their MKE mini-hub.

For example, the plan is to route all of FL's ATL-SEA traffic through MKE. They're not running ATL-SEA nonstop. Well, that's the plan at least. We'll see if they are able to follow through.

But I do know that last month set a new record for September at MKE.

Do you know the number? I can't find it anywhere including on the MKE site.

Do you know the number? I can't find it anywhere including on the MKE site.

According to the airport director, September 2009 traffic is up 16% over September 2008. I would think they will publicly announce this in the coming days. I am happy to post this when it becomes available.

In the meantime, here are the full-year 2008 stats, detailing the increase in passengers despite the downturn in the economy, as well as increased usage from IL travelers.

http://www.mitchellairport.com/news.html#WALKERANNOUNCES2008ARECORDYEARATMITCHELL AIRPORT

To expand on this a little further:

One should not belittle the more than three percent growth that MKE saw in 2008. Most U.S. airports actually lost passengers during that time. In fact, take a look at this comparison:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_airports_by_passenger_traffic#2008 _final_statistics

The only U.S. airports on this list that saw a higher percentage of growth than MKE were SFO and CLT. Most others lost passengers during that time.

Perhaps knope or someone else has a more complete list that includes MKE. I did a search but couldn't immediately find it.

Do you know the number? I can't find it anywhere including on the MKE site.

I don't think the September numbers are posted yet... I can't find them.

Google maps:

Gurnee, IL to ORD airport: 38 minutes (up to 45 minutes in traffic)

Gurnee, IL to MKE airport: 47 minutes

You're telling me that MKE is too far, but ORD isn't?

And don't try to tell me that the traffic in rural Wisconsin is as bad as the traffic around O'Hare. During rush hour it routinely takes 1-2 hours to get anywhere in the Chicago metro area. I'm sure BlueHorseShoe can attest to that. Perhaps that's why he doesn't mind making the drive from Chicago to MKE often.

As most on this board know, traffic in metro Chicago can be miserable during most hours of the day.

I'd challenge Google's claim that you can currently drive between Gurnee and ORD within 45 minutes. Perhaps on a weekend. With all of the construction on 94 it can take much longer to travel that route, especially during the work week. That's just going to ORD. Imagine if you had to make your way to MDW from one of the Northern suburbs.

I know several people that live north of the city that seriously consider driving to MKE now that Southwest will be offering service to the airport. They would never have considered making the drive for Midwest (unknown by many in the Chicago area for obvious reasons) or AirTran.

It's all about changing people's perceptions. There are many in Chicago who don't realize just how close Milwaukee really is.

It's all about changing people's perceptions. There are many in Chicago who don't realize just how close Milwaukee really is.

A Chicago Tribune sports writer referred to Milwaukee as that "frumpy hamlet to the North". It does make me laugh sometimes how we are perceived here by our fickle neighbors to the South. But we do love it when they come here and spend their money. :)

As most on this board know, traffic in metro Chicago can be miserable during most hours of the day.

I'd challenge Google's claim that you can currently drive between Gurnee and ORD within 45 minutes. Perhaps on a weekend. With all of the construction on 94 it can take much longer to travel that route, especially during the work week. That's just going to ORD. Imagine if you had to make your way to MDW from one of the Northern suburbs.

I know several people that live north of the city that seriously consider driving to MKE now that Southwest will be offering service to the airport. They would never have considered making the drive for Midwest (unknown by many in the Chicago area for obvious reasons) or AirTran.

It's all about changing people's perceptions. There are many in Chicago who don't realize just how close Milwaukee really is.

For many reasons including the ones you have stated above, more Chicagoland folks are starting to "get it" when it comes to MKE.

After all, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, the MKE airport is only 20 miles from where the Chicago "metro" zone ends, at the Racine-Kenosha County line. Kenosha county used to be in the Milwaukee census zone as a matter of fact, but it was transferred to Chicago because of a population shift. There are so many Chicago-area commuters that live in WI now.

I guess it’s time to quit “lurking” and weigh in with my two cents.

A testimonial from someone in the Gurnee area:

A few years ago my husband was going on his annual camping trip. I received an invitation for that same weekend to play in a slot tournament in Las Vegas. I decided to go if I could do so at a reasonable cost. We were both United FF’s (him a Premier). Too expensive. Someone suggested I try MKE. I got a great fare from FunJet, who put me on Midwest. Now, the to/from the airport problem. Keep in mind I’ve only flown from ORD (and MDW once), so that’s what I’m picturing. Limos to MKE from No. IL are outrageous. The company we used for ORD trips quoted me a price just to MKE that was more than the ORD round trip. And, they said they’d have to drop me in an outlot to catch a shuttle because they didn’t have some kind of license or permit for the airport. I even looked at using Amtrak and leaving my car there. I finally faced the awful truth: I would have to drive to the airport. What’s the worst that could happen?

The worst that happened was a long wait before the plane started boarding. I zipped up 94 into the parking garage. I walked right through a security checkpoint with no line. I was at the gate just slightly over an hour after leaving home!

The next time we booked flights, I told my husband we’re going out of Milwaukee. Knowing how much I hate driving and the limo prices I had encountered, he wanted to know how I planned to get to/from the airport (he hates driving even more than I do). That’s easy...I’ll drive.

And, we’ve never looked back. In fact, we had a lot of miles we could have used for award travel on United. When the miles were close to expiring, I’d order something through their mileage mall on each account (just in case we decided to take advantage of some award travel). This past summer we decided it was ridiculous to keep doing that since we have no intention of ever again flying out of Chicago. We used some of our miles for merchandise they were offering and donated the rest.

As an aside: this past April we tried AirTran because of a cheaper fare but mostly because at the time we booked, Midwest’s future was looking a little “shaky”. Did not like it at all. I can’t say exactly what, but there was something about the whole “atmosphere”, both at the gate and on the plane. We were really hoping to like it since there was the possibility of it becoming our only option.

BTW, a BIG thank you for the link to the parking coupon. We were using one that expired 9/30. Now, we’re good for a few more months and I will pass it on to recent and future Illinois MKE converts. Yay! to using it in two weeks. Boo! to the refund for our Signature seats.

I guess it’s time to quit “lurking” and weigh in with my two cents.



Welcome to FlyerTalk, luv2shop!

A Chicago Tribune sports writer referred to Milwaukee as that "frumpy hamlet to the North". It does make me laugh sometimes how we are perceived here by our fickle neighbors to the South. But we do love it when they come here and spend their money. :)

Milwaukee is nothing more than a suburb of Chicago

I guess it’s time to quit “lurking” and weigh in with my two cents.

A testimonial from someone in the Gurnee area:

A few years ago my husband was going on his annual camping trip. I received an invitation for that same weekend to play in a slot tournament in Las Vegas. I decided to go if I could do so at a reasonable cost. We were both United FF’s (him a Premier). Too expensive. Someone suggested I try MKE. I got a great fare from FunJet, who put me on Midwest. Now, the to/from the airport problem. Keep in mind I’ve only flown from ORD (and MDW once), so that’s what I’m picturing. Limos to MKE from No. IL are outrageous. The company we used for ORD trips quoted me a price just to MKE that was more than the ORD round trip. And, they said they’d have to drop me in an outlot to catch a shuttle because they didn’t have some kind of license or permit for the airport. I even looked at using Amtrak and leaving my car there. I finally faced the awful truth: I would have to drive to the airport. What’s the worst that could happen?

The worst that happened was a long wait before the plane started boarding. I zipped up 94 into the parking garage. I walked right through a security checkpoint with no line. I was at the gate just slightly over an hour after leaving home!

The next time we booked flights, I told my husband we’re going out of Milwaukee. Knowing how much I hate driving and the limo prices I had encountered, he wanted to know how I planned to get to/from the airport (he hates driving even more than I do). That’s easy...I’ll drive.

And, we’ve never looked back. In fact, we had a lot of miles we could have used for award travel on United. When the miles were close to expiring, I’d order something through their mileage mall on each account (just in case we decided to take advantage of some award travel). This past summer we decided it was ridiculous to keep doing that since we have no intention of ever again flying out of Chicago. We used some of our miles for merchandise they were offering and donated the rest.

As an aside: this past April we tried AirTran because of a cheaper fare but mostly because at the time we booked, Midwest’s future was looking a little “shaky”. Did not like it at all. I can’t say exactly what, but there was something about the whole “atmosphere”, both at the gate and on the plane. We were really hoping to like it since there was the possibility of it becoming our only option.

BTW, a BIG thank you for the link to the parking coupon. We were using one that expired 9/30. Now, we’re good for a few more months and I will pass it on to recent and future Illinois MKE converts. Yay! to using it in two weeks. Boo! to the refund for our Signature seats.

I second the welcome and am glad that the coupon will be of value to you.

So pleased that you have had good experiences heading north and flying in/out of MKE.

There is an on-going campaign to attract more travelers from IL, with promotions run on a regular basis. If you have not done so, I suggest that you subscribe to the bi-monthly newsletter, which will keep you posted on news/offers at MKE. The link to register: http://www.flymke.com/more/newsletter

I am sure that MKE management would be most pleased to hear your story; you may want to share it with them.

I hope that you continue to have positive experiences flying out of MKE.

In the meantime, here are the full-year 2008 stats, detailing the increase in passengers despite the downturn in the economy, as well as increased usage from IL travelers.


I was talking about YTD 2009 versus the same period last year. Not 2008 versus 2007. YTD is down over 10% from the same point last year.

Thank you both. I did use the link to sign up for the newsletter. I had checked the "add me" box on a couple of the coupons I used. I just figured there were so many of us it was taking a while to get into the system.

I am keeping an open mind re: my 11/12 flight being flown by Frontier. But, I will no doubt be comparing it to all of the great flights I've had on the 717. I'm just happy that things seem to be settling down. At one point we had 3 trips booked and didn't know from day-to-day what we'd finally end up on for any of them.

In fact, that's how I found this forum. I was looking for any information I could find about what was going on. I couldn't believe how well informed you guys are. I think I found out info before some of the CS reps. Thanks, guys!

Thank you both. I did use the link to sign up for the newsletter. I had checked the "add me" box on a couple of the coupons I used. I just figured there were so many of us it was taking a while to get into the system.

I am keeping an open mind re: my 11/12 flight being flown by Frontier. But, I will no doubt be comparing it to all of the great flights I've had on the 717. I'm just happy that things seem to be settling down. At one point we had 3 trips booked and didn't know from day-to-day what we'd finally end up on for any of them.

In fact, that's how I found this forum. I was looking for any information I could find about what was going on. I couldn't believe how well informed you guys are. I think I found out info before some of the CS reps. Thanks, guys!

I hope to see you as a regular contributor, and that you will post comments about your experiences. We all learn from each other.

I hope to see you as a regular contributor, and that you will post comments about your experiences. We all learn from each other.

+1

Welcome, Luvs! Glad to have you here. Weigh in anytime. We are pleased to hear another success story from northern IL. MKE really is a better alternative for many domestic destinations.

Do you know the number? I can't find it anywhere including on the MKE site.

Here is the official release from MKE airport showing that last month was a record September at MKE, despite a down economy.

http://www.mitchellairport.com/news.html#September2009

Despite a small downturn in the first half of this year, MKE is chugging along by adding flights and passengers. Pretty impressive considering the economic challenges...I'm sure it's considerable better than the national average.

Here is the official release from MKE airport showing that last month was a record September at MKE, despite a down economy.

http://www.mitchellairport.com/news.html#September2009

Despite a small downturn in the first half of this year, MKE is chugging along by adding flights and passengers. Pretty impressive considering the economic challenges...I'm sure it's considerable better than the national average.

Directly below this release, is the Oct 27 press release re the SuperSaver parking.