Emirates Airlines Skywards - Official: Changes to Skywards from '10 - it was bound to happen..

Discuss.....

1 January 2010 heralds the beginning of a new decade for Emirates and an exciting new phase in your Skywards membership. In order to better cater to the different needs of our loyal customers, Skywards will evolve into a more modern, sophisticated and personalised programme with a truly exclusive Gold tier for valued members such as yourself.

2010 also marks Skywards tenth anniversary. To celebrate, we will unveil an exciting, contemporary new look. Most notably, you can look forward to receiving a distinctive new membership card, that truly reflects your status as a top tier member. Skywards.com will also bring you new and enhanced tools to help you effortlessly manage your Skywards account.

More Choice. More Earning and Reward Opportunities.

Ten key programme changes will provide you with more choice and control over how you earn and spend your Miles from 1 January 2010.

Earning will be linked to the type of ticket purchased, benefiting members who pay higher fares. Cabin bonuses for First and Business Class travel will increase. Our unique ’Skywards Miles Accelerator’ will provide year-round flight bonuses and new one-way rewards will be introduced. These represent just some of the changes you can take advantage of, in the programme. To learn more about the changes affecting tickets you purchase from 1 January 2010, please use the links below.


Further updates will be available on skywards.com leading up to Skywards' re-launch on 1 January 2010. We encourage you to visit our comprehensive "Frequently Asked Questions" section to help you understand the programme changes in more detail, or to send us any additional questions you may have.

While we recognise the programme changes will affect members differently, we are confident that the enhancements will allow you to enjoy a more exclusive Gold tier and all its benefits.

In the meantime, we look forward to welcoming you on board again very soon.

Ten key changes for tickets purchased from 1 January 2010
1. Miles will be earned by fare type, either Skywards Flex or Skywards Saver
2. Cabin bonuses will increase to 150% and 75% for First and Business Class respectively
3. Earning zones will be introduced, replicating Skywards current rewards structure
4. Miles will be credited upon reaching your final destination, rather than per sector
5. The 'Skywards Miles Accelerator' will offer flight bonuses throughout the year
6. Saver and Flex Flight Rewards will offer you exceptional value or flexibility
7. One-way Flex Rewards will be introduced
8. Upgrade Rewards will be linked to fare type
9. Tier miles will also be earned by fare type, destination and class of travel
10. A new and more flexible tier qualification structure will be introduced

from the site...

Tier miles are earned at the same rate as you earn Skywards Miles and will also depend on the fare you purchase, where you commence and end your journey and the cabin you travel in. Which means you'll earn more tier miles when you purchase a Skywards Flex fare.

As before, you will need 25,000 tier miles to earn or retain Silver status, and 50,000 miles for Gold.

But you will now benefit from a more flexible qualification window to earn a higher tier rather than the current January to December calendar period.

Effective 1 January 2010, you will immediately benefit from having up to13 months to earn a higher tier, counted across any consecutive calendar period. For example, we will count your tier miles earned from January 2009 - January 2010; February 2009 - February 2010; March 2009 - March 2010; etc. Once you achieve a higher tier, your review date will be set for the end of the same month in the following year.

Also from January, a dedicated new section on skywards.com called Tier status will provide you with a very simple and interactive view of the tier miles you have earned, those you will earn on your future booked flights and the additional tier miles you need to reach a higher tier. This will help you easily monitor your progress

You beat me to it.

Glad to see that oneway redemptions will now be possible.

B:)

so it does not appear any platinum or diamond tier will be introduced...

Link to the information -> http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=4

Anyone else shocked that here is no Platinum tier - and.or that Gold is still 50K to Qualify?

Maybe with the new earnings it will be more diffuclt to get the tier miles?

Not really liking the miles point to point-- instead of per segment- that is more personal based on the routes I do and the probable net loss I will get on those routes.

Hmm waiting for Earning zones will be introduced, replicating Skywards current rewards structure list... so we can start planning. anyone got some inside information?

Let the rumormill start
http://i37.tinypic.com/m82xpx.gif

instead of 12 months to qualify, now it's 13 so it could be easier to reach a certain tier. obviously if the person flys on Skywards Saver mostly then he/she will have a longer time to accumulate tier miles.

i can't wait for my new flashier card in '10. :D

Sounds like a very complex modification.
Point to point miles will probably see a significant reduction of mileage earned if I understsand correctly.

So a FRA-DXB-BKK flight would now only net the direct ditance between FRA and BKK ?
In that case most people will be short changed, unless the earning zones will compensate ?

Here is answer for will Skywards have a 4th Tier: (from the microsite)

Emirates is continually looking for additional ways to provide recognition and exemplary service to our very top customers. For now, the Gold tier remains our most elite tier with benefits and privileges deserving of our best customers.

Sounds like a very complex modification.
Point to point miles will probably see a significant reduction of mileage earned if I understsand correctly.

So a FRA-DXB-BKK flight would now only net the direct ditance between FRA and BKK ?
In that case most people will be short changed, unless the earning zones will compensate ?
i don't think that will be the case. this is from point 4 of the microsite:

Miles will now be calculated from where your journey begins and ends, as per your ticket. Instead of receiving your Miles after each individual sector or flight, Miles will now be credited when you reach your destination.

For example, if you have purchased a return fare from London to Sydney via Dubai, you will receive Miles for your outbound journey on arrival in Sydney and Miles for your inbound journey when you return to London

seems to me that the miles credited to your account are kinda delayed, rather than posting after each segment.

Sounds like a very complex modification.
I agree. I was a regular Gold elite on BA when they changed tier point earning to a scaled structure based on booking class. Even though I probably would have done okay in the new scheme, I gave up and switched to other airlines with simpler schemes rather than having to worry about micromanaging my tier earnings each time I flew. I get the feeling I'm going to do the same with Emirates.

I can still not get my head around the re-qualify for those of us that are GOLD now and already re-qualified for 2010.

I read it as our year end will be 31 Jauanry 2011, and then if we have made the 50K by that daye our next expiry will be February 29, 2012? etc...

Any thoughts or agreement ?

Point to Point miles will be the biggest drawback for me. I do spend a good couple of months stop over (in DXB) sometimes, and will not get my miles until i reach my desitnation.

Now, after reading thru the FAQ, etc, is there any benefit that Gold members would get for upgrad availability, or will it be the same throughout all tiers (other than this Flex / Saver thing they got going on)

This does not look good. Link: http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=9

8. How many Miles will I earn on 'Skywards Flex' and 'Skywards Saver' fares?
You will earn 100% of base Miles when you purchase 'Skyward Flex' fares. You will earn 50% of base Miles when you purchase 'Skywards Saver' fares.

Depending on what qualifies for a Skywards Flex fare, I think Emirates may end up losing a lot of restricted class travel to other carriers.

This does not look good. Link: http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=9

8. How many Miles will I earn on 'Skywards Flex' and 'Skywards Saver' fares?
You will earn 100% of base Miles when you purchase 'Skyward Flex' fares. You will earn 50% of base Miles when you purchase 'Skywards Saver' fares.

Depending on what qualifies for a Skywards Flex fare, I think Emirates may end up losing a lot of restricted class travel to other carriers.

From what I can tell it will be as follows and I'll use DXB-GLA as an example as that's my most common route.

The "standard" price at the moment for the route is 3205 AED, this will be a "Skywards Flex" fare.

Now and again you get "Special Fares" to Glasgow for example at 2500 AED, these are usually listed on the Emirates front page, this will be a "Skywards Saver" fare.

As I said, this is only my interpretation of it and could well be wrong.

So a FRA-DXB-BKK flight would now only net the direct ditance between FRA and BKK ?
In that case most people will be short changed, unless the earning zones will compensate ?

As I read it, it'll earn a set number of miles from "Europe" to "Asia". So flying FRA-DXB-BKK would earn the same number of miles as CDG-DXB-SIN.

This matches the fact a redemption between those two city pairs costs the same.

Earning Miles will be based on broad geographic zones, adopting the same familiar structure as Skywards reward charts today. Aligning our earning and reward charts will make the programme much simpler, allowing you to earn and spend Miles in a more consistent manner and making it easier for you to compare how many flights you need to earn a reward.

All of this sounds incredibly complicated, doesn't it?

And there's a whole lot of double talk, without enough details(i.e. which fares are flex, saver, etc.).

As far as my requalification goes...

Can I still qualify for Silver or Gold by flying a certain number of sectors?
No. Tier qualification will be based purely on tier miles flown from January 2010. On all shorter routes, you will still earn a minimum amount tier miles (either 1,000 or 2,000 tier miles on a return trip), ensuring you have every chance to achieve the required tier miles if you travel frequently.

I wonder if the 1,000 is subject to the 50% on non-flex fares? If so, that makes it 50 "saver" flights (not sectors any more) for silver, and 100 :eek: for gold...

This does not look good. Link: http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=9

8. How many Miles will I earn on 'Skywards Flex' and 'Skywards Saver' fares?
You will earn 100% of base Miles when you purchase 'Skyward Flex' fares. You will earn 50% of base Miles when you purchase 'Skywards Saver' fares.

Depending on what qualifies for a Skywards Flex fare, I think Emirates may end up losing a lot of restricted class travel to other carriers.


This is indeed interesting. On the fares that qualify as saver fares EK says:

"A 'Skywards Saver' fare is any Emirates fare with either:
(a) eligibility restrictions (such as students; seniors; companions; etc)
(b) a limited sales period ("must purchase by" date)
All fares sold by other airlines, partly flown on Emirates, also fall into this category."

These restrictions do not sound too tough (let us see). But I fully agree with starflyer: If I only earn 50% of miles, my business is with Etihad.

Just got the Skywards email...had a look through the info on the linked site...

Am now wondering if I have read it correctly...it says that as Jan 2010 you will have 13 months before tier miles expire blah blah and they give the example of crediting points from Jan 09-Jan 2010....since I am 3,000 odd points away from gold and have a flight coming up in Jan 2010 does that really mean I will earn gold status?!.....seems too easy...:p

I'm thoroughly confused.

Totally and utterly confused:confused::confused:

Just got the Skywards email...had a look through the info on the linked site...

Am now wondering if I have read it correctly...it says that as Jan 2010 you will have 13 months before tier miles expire blah blah and they give the example of crediting points from Jan 09-Jan 2010....since I am 3,000 odd points away from gold and have a flight coming up in Jan 2010 does that really mean I will earn gold status?!.....seems too easy...:p

Maybe?????

Just got the Skywards email...had a look through the info on the linked site...

Am now wondering if I have read it correctly...it says that as Jan 2010 you will have 13 months before tier miles expire blah blah and they give the example of crediting points from Jan 09-Jan 2010....since I am 3,000 odd points away from gold and have a flight coming up in Jan 2010 does that really mean I will earn gold status?!.....seems too easy...:p

That does indeed appear to be the implication, yes.

On the flip side, this does mean you no longer get a full year plus the leftover year when you qualify for silver or gold.

Under the old system if you'd had 50,000 miles by March 2010, you'd keep the status until 2012. Now you'd only keep it until March 2011.

No!

the 2009 year end Dec 31 for 2010 tier levels.

The site is pretty clear that the 13 month rolling period is retroactive:

Effective 1 January 2010, you will immediately benefit from having 13-months to earn a higher tier, counted across any consecutive calendar period. This means we will now recognise and add-up your tier miles across any 13-months, to assess if you have earned 25,000 or 50,000 tier miles to qualify for Silver and Gold respectively.

For example, we will count your tier miles earned from January 2009 - January 2010; February 2009 - February 2010; March 2009 - March 2010; etc.

To summarise what I see as the key points:

Miles are earned between zones, not between cities
Every month, that month's tier earnings and the earnings from the previous 12 months are added up - over 25,000 and you get silver, over 50,000 and you get gold
Status lasts for 12 months exactly - no more (unlike now)
No more status qualification by number of sectors, but minimum miles earning is 1000 (maybe 500 for Saver tickets)
Saver tickets are those either offered only to certain types of people, or offered for a limited period only

Ho hum.

The site is pretty clear that the 13 month rolling period is retroactive:

Effective 1 January 2010, you will immediately benefit from having 13-months to earn a higher tier, counted across any consecutive calendar period. This means we will now recognise and add-up your tier miles across any 13-months, to assess if you have earned 25,000 or 50,000 tier miles to qualify for Silver and Gold respectively.

For example, we will count your tier miles earned from January 2009 - January 2010; February 2009 - February 2010; March 2009 - March 2010; etc.

Good point- I will edit my post--

Another confusing change-- :confused:

Maybe if I make up an example (thinking out loud here)

Jan 2009 - 11,000 miles
Feb 2009 - 3,000 miles (total: 14,000)
Mar 2009 - 0 miles (total: 14,000)
Apr 2009 - 0 miles (total: 14,000)
May 2009 - 9,000 miles (total: 23,000)
Jun 2009 - 4,000 miles (total: 27,000) - ACHIEVE SILVER UNTIL END JUN 2010
Jul 2009 - 0 miles (total: 27,000)
Aug 2009 - 0 miles (total: 27,000)
Sep 2009 - 0 miles (total: 27,000)
Oct 2009 - 0 miles (total: 27,000)
Nov 2009 - 10,000 miles (total: 37,000)
Dec 2009 - 10,000 miles (total: 47,000)
Jan 2010 - 2,000 miles (total: 49,000)
Feb 2010 - 1,000 miles (total: 39,000 (lose 11,000 from Jan 2009))
Mar 2010 - 10,000 miles (total: 46,000 (lose 3,000 from Feb 2009)) - RETAIN SILVER UNTIL END JUN 2011 (after earning 33,000 miles since achieving status)
Apr 2010 - 5,000 miles (total: 51,000) - ACHIEVE GOLD UNTIL END APR 2011
etc.

Corrected in red to note (new?) soft landing feature from Gold to Silver.

Maybe if I make up an example (thinking out loud here)

Jan 2009 - 11,000 miles
Feb 2009 - 3,000 miles (total: 14,000)
Mar 2009 - 0 miles (total: 14,000)
Apr 2009 - 0 miles (total: 14,000)
May 2009 - 9,000 miles (total: 23,000)
Jun 2009 - 4,000 miles (total: 27,000) - ACHIEVE SILVER UNTIL END JUN 2010
Jul 2009 - 0 miles (total: 27,000)
Aug 2009 - 0 miles (total: 27,000)
Sep 2009 - 0 miles (total: 27,000)
Oct 2009 - 0 miles (total: 27,000)
Nov 2009 - 10,000 miles (total: 37,000)
Dec 2009 - 10,000 miles (total: 47,000)
Jan 2010 - 2,000 miles (total: 49,000)
Feb 2010 - 1,000 miles (total: 39,000 (lose 11,000 from Jan 2009))
Mar 2010 - 10,000 miles (total: 46,000 (lose 3,000 from Feb 2009)) - RETAIN SILVER UNTIL END JUN 2011 (after earning 33,000 miles since achieving status)
Apr 2010 - 5,000 miles (total: 51,000) - ACHIEVE GOLD UNTIL END APR 2011 AND SILVER UNTIL END APR 2012
etc.

Corrected in red to note (new?) soft landing feature from Gold to Silver.

The soft landing isn't new, but thanks for adding :) Of course, if you got 50,000 miles between May 2010 and April 2011 in this example, you would requalify for gold.

This threw me a bit at first, but:
The qualifying period for moving up a status level is 13 months.
The qualifying period for renewing the same status is 12 months.

The zone-basis and earning rates more closely aligned to revenue is similar to some aspects of NZ Airpoints.

I am totally confused,:confused: I hope Skywards computer will be able to get it right as at this time it is showing for an upcoming trip (an upgraded with miles) the incorrect miles, this is not a new issue many members have raised this over the last few years and they still can not fix it so how's their computer going to deal with the new system?

Personally I was hoping for something more for loyalty, ie some of the previous miles retained with a half life, so say a person who flew less but did so every year could say after 5 years be on an equal with someone who accumulated twice as many miles just for one year.

All this is fine - changes / earning period / etc, etc

The million $ question is - will it be be easier for a Gold member to score an upgrade / reward, when compared to a Silver, and same for Silver to Blue?

What added benefit do i get retaining my Gold status? Any Tier threshold bonus? I have flown over 150k this year in tier miles, but other than earning extra miles, I do not have any concrete loyalty reward flying EK after 50k.

1. Miles will be earned by fare type, either Skywards Flex or Skywards Saver
2. Cabin bonuses will increase to 150% and 75% for First and Business Class respectively


Observation:
It's not entirely clear from the FAQs, but for many of us, I suspect that "enhancement" #1 will more than offset any benefit from #2. Skywards Saver is apparently going to be determined not by booking class, but by the presence of any booking conditions - e.g. Business Class sale fare valid for purchase only until date [x] - that's the vast majority of F and C tickets I (and I suspect, many of you) buy. So with a 50% reduction on base miles, that effectively takes the F bonus back to 100% and reduces the C bonus to 25% :rolleyes:

Great. As somebody who decided to fly EK for the first time 5 months ago, partly on the basis of a generous FFP, I am beginning to feel cheated with this and the sudden reductions in upgrade availability over the last few months... Shoulda flown QR/EY/GF instead...

Observation:
It's not entirely clear from the FAQs, but for many of us, I suspect that "enhancement" #1 will more than offset any benefit from #2. Skywards Saver is apparently going to be determined not by booking class, but by the presence of any booking conditions - e.g. Business Class sale fare valid for purchase only until date [x] - that's the vast majority of F and C tickets I (and I suspect, many of you) buy. So with a 50% reduction on base miles, that effectively takes the F bonus back to 100% and reduces the C bonus to 25% :rolleyes:

Based on flown miles the changes would give you following gain/loss in miles earned for Gold & Silver Members:
in F Flex + 25% Tier Miles and same Skywards Gold/Silver Bonus
in F Savers - 37.5% Tier Miles and - 50% Skywards Gold/Silver Bonus
in C Flex + 16.67% Tier Miles and same Skywards Gold/Silver Bonus
in C Savers - 41.67% Tier Miles and - 50% Skywards Gold/Silver Bonus

It is clear that those, like me, who took advantage of the F Savers to get Gold level with 2 trips Europe-Asia, next year will have to fly a lot more.
And if, as some in this forum expect, the zone concept for the base miles will reduce the base miles: the gain, if any, will be lower and the loss will be higher.
At the end EK will be able to reduce the number of Gold and Silver Members significantly, which may allow them not to create an additional level (Platinium) and come with some real improvement for the Gold level!

With the new system, if I got it right,

a flight from Johannesburg to Perth that would normally earn 9598 milage points in blue - one way, would now only earn 5159 miles (calculated between endpoints on route).

So a return flight JNB - PER, on a "saver" fare,
that now earns you 19196 miles ,
would after Jan 2010 only earn you 5159 * 2 = 10318 * 0,50 = 5159 miles when flying on blue.

The difference will be even greater for those flying on silver and gold membership. Not good.

Unless I have missed something, I dont think it is clear whether the points earning will be based on ZA-Dubai plus Dubai-Oz or whether the mileage for ZA-Oz would apply . It states that the miles will be applied at the end of the oneway journey but not how they will be applied

My head is hurting getting round this info, I'm now totally confused!

At the end of the day are the changes good, bad or indifferent? The heat here is melting my brain.....

With the new system, if I got it right,


You can't calculate the new earnings in terms of distance - we have to wait for Emirates to publish the earnings tables.

You can't calculate the new earnings ... - we have to wait for Emirates to publish the earnings tables.

Why do we have to wait for the new earnings tables??

The Skywards program changes have been in the pipeline for almost a year, and are due to be implemented in less than 3 months now.

This really reminds me of the massive "(f)Lying Blue"-devaluation after 01/04/2009 (sold as "program enhancements" by AF/KL), where members had to wait until 3 months AFTER the changes became effective, before most of the (decimated) earning tables had been updated on the program's website (especially in regard to partner airlines). This P.R. betrayal was one of the major reasons for me (and many others) to stop flying AFKL and to drop out of ST altogether.

How come Skywards cannot communicate openly about the upcoming changes??

What are they hiding??

What are they afraid of??

What is it they don't want us to know (yet)??

Is it 100% certain there will be no changes to any of the reward tables??

If what happened at AF/KL Flying Blue is any indication, I would say: better take up some of the (many many) status match opportunities currently offered by many of Skywards' competitors, just to be on the safe side.

Anyway, I have always found EK Skywards to be one of the best FFP in the industry.

One of the reasons undoubtedly being that EK is not a member of one of the major airline alliances. It takes quite some incentive(s) indeed, to make frequent flyers like me fly via/over DXB.

The one thing I have always liked most about Skywards was the absolute "TRANSPARENCY" and the "SIMPLICITY" of the program. I really hope EK will refrain from tampering too much with its very own success formula.

Let the recent exodus at AFKL's (f)Lying Blue be a lesson for the EK management.

.

I believe the earnings table will follow the same structure as redeeming rewards and be based on zones that are shown for the rewards currently.

I have compiled a table to show the 18 different zones I think EK will implement. These are based on miles required to redeem from dubai as origin point and also divided into regions. I also suspect the miles earnt from each zone will calculated as 10% of miles required to redeem. I have put next to each zone how much miles are earned. As you can see, certain destinations work out better while others do not.

Example 1: Birmingham to Dubai currently earns 3481 miles in economy. Under the new scheme it would earn 4000 miles. ^

Example 2: San Francisc to Dubai currently earns 8088 miles in economy. Under the new scheme it would earn only 7000 miles.:td:

Standalone Home Zone: Dubai

Zone A - 1000 miles: Muscat, Doha, Bahrain

Zone B - 1500 miles: Riyadh, Tehran, Kuwait, Dammam, Jeddah, Sanaa

Zone C - 2500 miles: Peshawar, Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, Ahmedabad, Mumbai, Delhi

Zone D - 2500 miles: Addis Ababa, Khartoum, Cairo, Amman, Damascus, Beirut, Lanarca

Zone E - 3500 miles: Hyderabad, Bangalore, Chennai, Kozhikode, Cochin, Thiruvananthapuram, Colombo, Male

Zone F - 3500 miles: Seychelles, Dar es Salaam, Nairobi, Entebbe, Tripoli, Tunis

Zone G - 3500 miles: Istanbul, Athens

Zone H - 4000 miles: Kolkata, Dhaka

Zone I - 4000 miles: Malta, Rome, Milan, Venice, Munich, Vienna, Zurich, Moscow, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Dusseldorf, Paris, Nice

Zone J - 4000 miles: London, Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow

Zone K - 4500 miles: Cassablanca, Abidjan, Accra, Luanda, Cape Town, Johannesburg, Durban, Mauritius

Zone L - 5000 miles: Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Jakarta, Manila, Hong Kong, Guangzhou, Shanghai, Beijing, Seoul

Zone M - 6000 miles: Osaka

Zone N - 7000 miles: Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane

Zone O - 7000 miles: Auckland, Christchurch

Zone P - 7000 miles: Sao Paulo

Zone Q - 7000 miles: New York, Toronto, Houston

Zone R - 7000 miles:Los Angleles, San Francisco

I believe the earnings table will follow the same structure as redeeming rewards and be based on zones that are shown for the rewards currently.

I have compiled a table to show the 18 different zones I think EK will implement. These are based on miles required to redeem from dubai as origin point and also divided into regions. I also suspect the miles earnt from each zone will calculated as 10% of miles required to redeem. I have put next to each zone how much miles are earned. As you can see, certain destinations work out better while others do not.

Example 1: Birmingham to Dubai currently earns 3481 miles in economy. Under the new scheme it would earn 4000 miles. ^

Example 2: San Francisc to Dubai currently earns 8088 miles in economy. Under the new scheme it would earn only 7000 miles.:td:

Standalone Home Zone: Dubai

Zone A - 1000 miles: Muscat, Doha, Bahrain

Zone B - 1500 miles: Riyadh, Tehran, Kuwait, Dammam, Jeddah, Sanaa

Zone C - 2500 miles: Peshawar, Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, Ahmedabad, Mumbai, Delhi

Zone D - 2500 miles: Addis Ababa, Khartoum, Cairo, Amman, Damascus, Beirut, Lanarca

Zone E - 3500 miles: Hyderabad, Bangalore, Chennai, Kozhikode, Cochin, Thiruvananthapuram, Colombo, Male

Zone F - 3500 miles: Seychelles, Dar es Salaam, Nairobi, Entebbe, Tripoli, Tunis

Zone G - 3500 miles: Istanbul, Athens

Zone H - 4000 miles: Kolkata, Dhaka

Zone I - 4000 miles: Malta, Rome, Milan, Venice, Munich, Vienna, Zurich, Moscow, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Dusseldorf, Paris, Nice

Zone J - 4000 miles: London, Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow

Zone K - 4500 miles: Cassablanca, Abidjan, Accra, Luanda, Cape Town, Johannesburg, Durban, Mauritius

Zone L - 5000 miles: Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Jakarta, Manila, Hong Kong, Guangzhou, Shanghai, Beijing, Seoul

Zone M - 6000 miles: Osaka

Zone N - 7000 miles: Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane

Zone O - 7000 miles: Auckland, Christchurch

Zone P - 7000 miles: Sao Paulo

Zone Q - 7000 miles: New York, Toronto, Houston

Zone R - 7000 miles:Los Angleles, San Francisco
eshaq786,
Was this "Zone Listings/Earning Tables" there in Skywards Micro Site? I can't find it so. Please provide with the exact link..
Thnx in advance...

eshaq786,
Was this "Zone Listings/Earning Tables" there in Skywards Micro Site? I can't find it so. Please provide with the exact link..
Thnx in advance...

It is pure speculation and should in no way be taken as fact.

Truthfully, it is misleading and just confuses the matters even more.

It is pure speculation and should in no way be taken as fact.

Truthfully, it is misleading and just confuses the matters even more.

I think this is speculation in the right direction though. would be suprised if it is not close.

This is what ive speculated from the information Skywards have provided. They have said that the rewards will be in line with earnings and therefore i have come up with the above. But it isnt fact, it is just speculation and an educated speculation.

...why so many of you are complaining now! There were endless and pointless discussions about Platinum tiers and others being bored of their Gold card. Well, now I'm pretty sure this is the beginning of the end of Skywards and some of our overambitious posters.
What's clear to me from the information provided by Skywards:
1) Every(!) ticket is a saver ticket except a full flex ticket. BTW: I can't remember when having bought my last ticket without "eligibility restrictions" such as NOT VALID AFTER/NOT VALID BEFORE)...
2) Introduction of zones have never been to the advantage of customers. This is usually the same for earning as well as redemption schemes. Even if there might be a slight increase in zone earnings (!), keep in mind that your ticket will most probably devaluate your trip.
3) The fact that the new FF handbook has not being published and is being kept secret till 2010 is a really bad sign!
Summarizing:
EK seems to have a major "clean-up" in mind. Well, that's their right to do so. Of course, they might get rid of (many) Gold and Silver tiers this way. However, they should keep in mind that those people helped them make their business grow. For me this is quite disappointing and I doubt very much that I'm going to travel that frequently with EK in future.

:td:

marc-DE

1) Every(!) ticket is a saver ticket except a full flex ticket. BTW: I can't remember when having bought my last ticket without "eligibility restrictions" such as NOT VALID AFTER/NOT VALID BEFORE)...


The description in the FAQs states

A 'Skywards Saver' fare is any Emirates fare with either:
(a) eligibility restrictions (such as students; seniors; companions; etc)
(b) a limited sales period ("must purchase by" date)
All fares sold by other airlines, partly flown on Emirates, also fall into this category.

A ticket which has a max stay restriction would not seem to fit within the description given

I would wait until the full details of the changes are available before deciding that the sky is falling in

Mileage earning information should be available within 2 weeks and not need to wait to jan to find out for example

Dave

I would really like to share your (Dave) optimism. You might know that the details are usually to be read between the lines. In this particular case:
"(a) eligibility restrictions (such as students; seniors; companions; etc)"
etc allows many interpretations such as NOT VALID BEFORE / NOT VALID AFTER. Even more, if you take a closer look at the example given at:
http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=9
Question 7
In my opinion the "etc" has to be interpreted in a worst case scenario like in hotel descriptions: A "sea-side" room is different from a "sea-view" room. The first one has to be directed to the sea only (regardless how far it is away and how many obstacles are in between), while the latter one really has to offer (at least) a (minimum direct) glimpse toward the sea...

marc-DE

I would really like to share your (Dave) optimism. You might know that the details are usually to be read between the lines. In this particular case:
"(a) eligibility restrictions (such as students; seniors; companions; etc)"
etc allows many interpretations such as NOT VALID BEFORE / NOT VALID AFTER. Even more, if you take a closer look at the example given at:
http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=9
Question 7
In my opinion the "etc" has to be interpreted in a worst case scenario like in hotel descriptions: A "sea-side" room is different from a "sea-view" room. The first one has to be directed to the sea only (regardless how far it is away and how many obstacles are in between), while the latter one really has to offer (at least) a (minimum direct) glimpse toward the sea...

marc-DE


However you read it, I cannot see a must travel by date as being an eligability restriction. Anyone can buy the ticket, the purchase is not restricted in any way

One interesting ( to me anyway ) effect of this change is that if someone buys a ticket from A-B-C and back to save money over a B-C return and doesn't fly the final leg of the return journey, then the person will not earn any miles for the return half of the trip. Interesting way to penalise throwaway ticketing

Dave

However you read it, I cannot see a must travel by date as being an eligability restriction. Anyone can buy the ticket, the purchase is not restricted in any way
You're right. Everything is pure speculation (so far). However, I'm pretty sure that a worst case scenario will happen...

One interesting ( to me anyway ) effect of this change is that if someone buys a ticket from A-B-C and back to save money over a B-C return and doesn't fly the final leg of the return journey, then the person will not earn any miles for the return half of the trip. Interesting way to penalise throwaway ticketing
That's true! In addition, detour journeys (such as DXB-HKG-BKK without stop-over) will be devaluated.

Dave
marc-DE

That's true! In addition, detour journeys (such as DXB-HKG-BKK without stop-over) will be devaluated.



May be devalued rather than will I would say. As far as I can see it only says that the miles will be credited at the end of the oneway journey, it hasn't yet qualified whether it will be the mileage based on origin-destination or based on the actual segments taken

Even a Full Fare 1st ticket has a max stay of 1 year, so if a max use restriction was going to cause a fare to be a saver fare, then it means that all fares would be savers

Dave

I can't understand how EK can announce such huge changes without providing the details. Very unprofessional.

The only positive change I can see is the one-way awards. Which will be useless if we can't earn enough miles to redeem them!

...why so many of you are complaining now! There were endless and pointless discussions about Platinum tiers and others being bored of their Gold card. Well, now I'm pretty sure this is the beginning of the end of Skywards and some of our overambitious posters.
What's clear to me from the information provided by Skywards:
1) Every(!) ticket is a saver ticket except a full flex ticket. BTW: I can't remember when having bought my last ticket without "eligibility restrictions" such as NOT VALID AFTER/NOT VALID BEFORE)...
2) Introduction of zones have never been to the advantage of customers. This is usually the same for earning as well as redemption schemes. Even if there might be a slight increase in zone earnings (!), keep in mind that your ticket will most probably devaluate your trip.
3) The fact that the new FF handbook has not being published and is being kept secret till 2010 is a really bad sign!
Summarizing:
EK seems to have a major "clean-up" in mind. Well, that's their right to do so. Of course, they might get rid of (many) Gold and Silver tiers this way. However, they should keep in mind that those people helped them make their business grow. For me this is quite disappointing and I doubt very much that I'm going to travel that frequently with EK in future.

:td:

marc-DE

NOT VALID AFTER/NOT VALID BEFORE remains for every ticket EK sells due to IATA regulations for tickets to be valid for no more than 12 months. This does not directly effect how 'flexible' a ticket is in terms of amendments.

I believe the earnings table will follow the same structure as redeeming rewards and be based on zones that are shown for the rewards currently.

I have compiled a table to show the 18 different zones I think EK will implement. These are based on miles required to redeem from dubai as origin point and also divided into regions. I also suspect the miles earnt from each zone will calculated as 10% of miles required to redeem. I have put next to each zone how much miles are earned. As you can see, certain destinations work out better while others do not.

Example 1: Birmingham to Dubai currently earns 3481 miles in economy. Under the new scheme it would earn 4000 miles. ^

Example 2: San Francisc to Dubai currently earns 8088 miles in economy. Under the new scheme it would earn only 7000 miles.:td:

Standalone Home Zone: Dubai

Zone A - 1000 miles: Muscat, Doha, Bahrain

Zone B - 1500 miles: Riyadh, Tehran, Kuwait, Dammam, Jeddah, Sanaa

Zone C - 2500 miles: Peshawar, Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, Ahmedabad, Mumbai, Delhi

Zone P - 7000 miles: Sao Paulo

Zone Q - 7000 miles: New York, Toronto, Houston

Zone R - 7000 miles:Los Angleles, San Francisco


hi..Where did you get this chart from ? If Ahmedabad comes under 2500 mile zone ...While I travel AMD - DXB it gives me 1098 miles basic on economy. So AMD - DXB gets more than double miles starting Jan ? Although there is hardly any differnce to JFK etc.

hi..Where did you get this chart from ?

From nowhere!! It is completely fabricated, even if done under the best of intentions.

However you read it, I cannot see a must travel by date as being an eligability restriction. Anyone can buy the ticket, the purchase is not restricted in any way

One interesting ( to me anyway ) effect of this change is that if someone buys a ticket from A-B-C and back to save money over a B-C return and doesn't fly the final leg of the return journey, then the person will not earn any miles for the return half of the trip. Interesting way to penalise throwaway ticketing

Dave

Earning on NZ Airpoints when flying Air NZ is also based on journey. They do not treat journey as meaning origin and destination on a ticket. Rather you get credited for points up to each stopover, but the credit can be backed out and replaced by a differing amount if later flight is deemed to be part of the same journey.

Seems confusing to me.
Without even trying to study it in detail my gut feeling is bad. I get the impression that, (when all the other details are out):-

-Its going to be harder to get to the various status levels
-Its going to be more difficult to earn miles with most fares unless you (or your company) buys the more expensive fares
-Its going to be more difficult to get upgrades
-Its going to be more difficult to get flight award redemptions

Perhaps the prosperous and halcyon days for Skywards rewards and upgrades are done.

The earning table doesn't make sense. Why would they separate Americas into different zones with the same mileage for each destination?

It is highly unlikely that mileage would be calculated based on actual distance between two places, as that wouldn't fit in with the creation of zones (which would be based on distance from Dubai)

It is disappointing to see no added benefits for Skywards members!

On the bright side, there's a 5% discount for booking upgrades online, which wasn't offered earlier.

The earning table doesn't make sense. Why would they separate Americas into different zones with the same mileage for each destination?

It is highly unlikely that mileage would be calculated based on actual distance between two places, as that wouldn't fit in with the creation of zones (which would be based on distance from Dubai)

It is disappointing to see no added benefits for Skywards members!

On the bright side, there's a 5% discount for booking upgrades online, which wasn't offered earlier.

There used to be a 10% discount for booking online, in 2007 if I am not wrong.

Yes, you are probably right, zones means miles will not be exactly calculated after distance, but grouped together at round numbers. Which will probably be lower than what you would earn now. I am pessimistic here, because Emirates just want to make profit!

The earning table doesn't make sense. Why would they separate Americas into different zones with the same mileage for each destination?

It is highly unlikely that mileage would be calculated based on actual distance between two places, as that wouldn't fit in with the creation of zones (which would be based on distance from Dubai)

It is disappointing to see no added benefits for Skywards members!

On the bright side, there's a 5% discount for booking upgrades online, which wasn't offered earlier.


It is 10% currently, they will be reducing it to 5%..not good.

From nowhere!! It is completely fabricated, even if done under the best of intentions.

Not entirely true. The poster took the current redemption zones and divided everything by 10. While the 10 number is arbritary it seems to make logical sense. But when is EK ever logical...

If nothing else, the chart teaches us the following:

Flights to cities which would earn MORE than the miles they used to earn are currently expensive cities for redemptions (e.g. you earn less than 4,000 on BHX-DXB but have to spend 40,000 for a ticket)

On the other hand, flights which would earn LESS under the new scheme scheme are currently cheaper redemptions (e.g. you earn MORE than 7,000 miles SFO-DXB but the reward ticket is only 70,000)

[I know that's probably quite confusing but I'm mimicking EK here :-p]

Cheers

I can't understand how EK can announce such huge changes without providing the details. Very unprofessional.

Air France / KLM did it before them (at the beginning of 2009), announcing some "enhancements" to their FB-program without communicating the exact changes until they became effective, or even until after they had become effective (basically annihilating the Flying Blue FFP), chasing many FF away, including many heavy spenders, platinum members, lifetime platinum members, and even corporate accounts.

IOW, in the process of winding down the Flying Blue FFP (probably the worst in the industry), AFKL chased a lot of its premium clientele away: nobody really understood why they did this, and certainly nobody understood why they did this the way that they did (not communicating openly, withholding essential information about the upcoming changes). Then, after it became clear that the whole "program enhancement" was a hoax, which really came down to an extreme devaluation (decimating the AFKL earnings/rewards tables) the effect on occupancy rates and yields was just disastrous for the airlines involved. ... right in the middle of the global economic downturn, when many travelers had started to shop around.

AFKL thought they would get away with it, e.g. by relying on their dominant position in the Skyteam alliance and by "managing the outflow of information". But this backfired enormously. AFKL lost a lot of FF, including many FF they undoubtedly would have preferred to retain. The Air France / KLM devaluation (and the accompanying P.R. disaster and corporate misinformation) was a classic textbook example / Harvard business-case scenario of how NOT to do things.

In the case of the AFKL devaluation after 1 APR 2009, many frequent flyers simply took up one of the status match offers by many of AFKL's competitors, especially the very interesting status match offers by some of the *A airlines.

Many FB-members probably also signed up for EK Skywards, in the course of the last couple of months.

Therefore, it just beggars belief that EK are now trying to get away with similar P.R. tactics (i.e. not openly publishing the earnings/rewards tables), basically trying to pull an AFKL (f)Lying Blue on us. :mad:

I'ld say it's high time for EK to publish the complete set of tables:

the new earnings charts
the new rewards charts
(including the charts for/at the partner airlines).

BTW: remember what happened recently at BA. BA were forced to lift some major accrual restrictions of their (ridiculously complicated) Executive Club FFP. In the end even BA was forced to capitulate: needlessly complicating your FFP has major drawbacks, whilst it is clear that with most FFP-members transparency will pay off: both for the pax and for the airline. This is especially true in these economic times, when many FFP are shopping around. And even more so, if you are not a member of one of the major airline alliances.

.

There used to be a 10% discount for booking online, in 2007 if I am not wrong.

Yes, you are probably right, zones means miles will not be exactly calculated after distance, but grouped together at round numbers. Which will probably be lower than what you would earn now. I am pessimistic here, because Emirates just want to make profit!
True, though I don't think currently there is a discount for booking upgrades online. That said, if the changes devalue the miles, the 5% might not reduce the required miles.

From history, practice, and facts:

History: Emirates have been very generous previously until they became a giant airline where they started practicing strict commercial practices and neglect the good customer service they were known for. They don't need good customer service nor they need generous FFP anymore which has become a burden in their eyes. People will still fly because of the good reputation they had.

Practice:
1- Foot rests taken off planes.
2- Strict Fees and baggage limitations (until lately).
3- The latest downgrade of their skywards.
4- Every time I call EK to upgrade using miles, they say it is not available. However, the agent would convince you to call nearer to the flight dep, one was almost going to swear the upgrade would open. This tells me that they
deliberatly close upgrade seats and make them available for paying customers until the dep date. They would fill them nearer to dep with leftovers (FF).
That is treason by a supposedly premium airline to their FFs.

Facts:
They don't have the government support like their emerging rivals, Qatar Airways and Etihad. Therefore, they need to compensate that by squeezing as much as they can from their customers.


What to expect? A failed once successful airline.

Really interesting set of developments !

Pity the new tier is not here :td:

I'm looking forward to getting the new designed Gold card !! :D

From history, practice, and facts:

History: Emirates have been very generous previously until they became a giant airline where they started practicing strict commercial practices and neglect the good customer service they were known for. They don't need good customer service nor they need generous FFP anymore which has become a burden in their eyes. People will still fly because of the good reputation they had.

Practice:
1- Foot rests taken off planes.
2- Strict Fees and baggage limitations (until lately).
3- The latest downgrade of their skywards.
4- Every time I call EK to upgrade using miles, they say it is not available. However, the agent would convince you to call nearer to the flight dep, one was almost going to swear the upgrade would open. This tells me that they
deliberatly close upgrade seats and make them available for paying customers until the dep date. They would fill them nearer to dep with leftovers (FF).
That is treason by a supposedly premium airline to their FFs.

Facts:
They don't have the government support like their emerging rivals, Qatar Airways and Etihad. Therefore, they need to compensate that by squeezing as much as they can from their customers.

What to expect? A failed once successful airline.


Get real !!

.

I'm looking forward to getting the new designed Gold card !! :D

Why??

.

Question

1. I am currently 2000 miles off renewing Gold, and will be >50,000 after our Melbourne Cup trip in 2 weeks. Thus I understand I should get my new card and be sweet up to Dec 2010. Ok.

2. I returned from CPT last week and earned ~41,000 tier miles (say they were earned on 1 September 2009). Does this mean that if I fly 9,000 tier miles between 1 Jan 2010 and 31 Aug 2010 I get Gold (again) and 12 months validity from 1 Sep 2010? Am I confused?

I think as much as I love EK, they really have been economical with the numbers.

cw

Question

1. I am currently 2000 miles off renewing Gold, and will be >50,000 after our Melbourne Cup trip in 2 weeks. Thus I understand I should get my new card and be sweet up to Dec 2010. Ok.

2. I returned from CPT last week and earned ~41,000 tier miles (say they were earned on 1 September 2009). Does this mean that if I fly 9,000 tier miles between 1 Jan 2010 and 31 Aug 2010 I get Gold (again) and 12 months validity from 1 Sep 2010? Am I confused?

I think as much as I love EK, they really have been economical with the numbers.

cw
1. I believe you will be Gold until end Jan 2011.

2. Your renewal anniversary date will be end Jan 2011, at which point you will be evaluated for 50,000 tier miles over the past 13 months (Jan 2010 thru Jan 2010) to see if you requalify for Gold. You will NOT be evaluated until then. It's only a rolling 13 month qualifying period for moving up in status, not for retaining current status.

Bit of a puzzled here.

Some posts seem indicate that Silver and Gold cards issued for tier miles flown this year will now not be valid until 28/2/2011, are Emirates so unscrupulous as not to honour fringe benefits that would have been a deciding factor of many travellers to fly with them this year and not a competitor who's ticket may have been cheaper?

What about those who have already received cards dated "28/2/2011"?

Another factor is the 13 month issue, I fly twice a year and as I read it I am at a disadvantage because my flights straddle month ends.

Bit of a puzzled here.

Some posts seem indicate that Silver and Gold cards issued for tier miles flown this year will now not be valid until 28/2/2011, are Emirates so unscrupulous as not to honour fringe benefits that would have been a deciding factor of many travellers to fly with them this year and not a competitor who's ticket may have been cheaper?

What about those who have already received cards dated "28/2/2011"?


As far as I can tell, the card will be valid until 28/2/2011 with your review date 31/12/2010. For people who alread have status, there should be no change in terms of review dates. People moving up status lose out, though, because before they'd get rest of this year + all next year, and from 2010 they'll only get 12 months.

Do you guys think, with the introduction of all these new rules, it might be better for etihad FF. They are coming up really well as well.
I am certainly thinking about it!

Do you guys think, with the introduction of all these new rules, it might be better for etihad FF. They are coming up really well as well.
I am certainly thinking about it!
Yes, I would suggest switching to Etihad.

The description in the FAQs states

A 'Skywards Saver' fare is any Emirates fare with either:
(a) eligibility restrictions (such as students; seniors; companions; etc)
(b) a limited sales period ("must purchase by" date)
All fares sold by other airlines, partly flown on Emirates, also fall into this category.

A ticket which has a max stay restriction would not seem to fit within the description given

The follow up news is not good. I'm moving my > 100K miles travel per year to other carriers.

I just bought a roundtrip ticket from EK flying on EK between India and Dubai. The ticket receipt shows that it is a SKYWARDS SAVER fare.

However, the fare conditions:
a. List NO eligibility restrictions (such as students; seniors; companions; etc).
b. List NO limited sales period.

Here are the complete extent of restrictions that I can find in the fare rules:

STOPOVERS
UNLIMITED STOPOVERS PERMITTED LIMITED TO 2 FREE AND UNLIMITED AT INR 2000 EACH. 1 FREE IN DXB IN EACH DIRECTION UNLIMITED AT INR 2000 EACH. CHILD/INFANT DISCOUNTS APPLY.

FLIGHT APPLIC
THE FARE COMPONENT MUST NOT BE ON ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING EK FLIGHTS 6670 THROUGH 6671 EK FLIGHTS 6680 THROUGH 6681. AND THE FARE COMPONENT MUST BE ON ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING ANY EK FLIGHT OPERATED BY EK ANY IT FLIGHT.

SEASONS
NO SEA RESTRICTION

MINIMUM STAY
ANY EK FLIGHT OPERATED BY EK ANY IT FLIGHT. SEASONS

MAXIMUM STAY
TRAVEL FROM LAST INTERNATIONAL STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO LATER THAN 3 MONTHS AFTER DEPARTURE FROM FARE ORIGIN.

BLACKOUTS
NO BLA RESTRICTION

Can anyone explain how this meets the qualifications of a SKYWARDS SAVER fare?

Earning credit per each sector flown -- rather than earning credit in the way EK is proposing to do next year -- was a way for an airline to reward customer for choosing to fly a less convenient routing yet providing the business anyway to the less convenient carrier.

Here are the complete extent of restrictions that I can find in the fare rules:

STOPOVERS
UNLIMITED STOPOVERS PERMITTED LIMITED TO 2 FREE AND UNLIMITED AT INR 2000 EACH. 1 FREE IN DXB IN EACH DIRECTION UNLIMITED AT INR 2000 EACH. CHILD/INFANT DISCOUNTS APPLY.

FLIGHT APPLIC
THE FARE COMPONENT MUST NOT BE ON ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING EK FLIGHTS 6670 THROUGH 6671 EK FLIGHTS 6680 THROUGH 6681. AND THE FARE COMPONENT MUST BE ON ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING ANY EK FLIGHT OPERATED BY EK ANY IT FLIGHT.

SEASONS
NO SEA RESTRICTION

MINIMUM STAY
ANY EK FLIGHT OPERATED BY EK ANY IT FLIGHT. SEASONS

MAXIMUM STAY
TRAVEL FROM LAST INTERNATIONAL STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO LATER THAN 3 MONTHS AFTER DEPARTURE FROM FARE ORIGIN.

BLACKOUTS
NO BLA RESTRICTION


Can anyone explain how this meets the qualifications of a SKYWARDS SAVER fare?

Maximum stay 3 months.

BTW, did you also have a look at the 'PENALTIES' section ??

What was the booking class?? How was the price??

.

Earning credit per each sector flown -- rather than earning credit in the way EK is proposing to do next year -- was a way for an airline to reward customer for choosing to fly a less convenient routing yet providing the business anyway to the less convenient carrier.


So true.

Especially since EK is a stand-alone air carrier, with a business model based on the 'hub-and-spokes' principle.

.

Maximum stay 3 months.
That is not a restriction on eligibility (such as students; seniors; companions; etc) or sales period.

BTW, did you also have a look at the 'PENALTIES' section ??
Yes, there are penalty fees for changes or refunds.

What was the booking class?? How was the price??
This is an economy seat with fare basis XPX3MIN4. Price was similar to the amount I've regularly seen on this route over the past year.

The follow up news is not good. I'm moving my > 100K miles travel per year to other carriers.

I just bought a roundtrip ticket from EK flying on EK between India and Dubai. The ticket receipt shows that it is a SKYWARDS SAVER fare.

However, the fare conditions:
a. List NO eligibility restrictions (such as students; seniors; companions; etc).
b. List NO limited sales period.

Here are the complete extent of restrictions that I can find in the fare rules:

STOPOVERS
UNLIMITED STOPOVERS PERMITTED LIMITED TO 2 FREE AND UNLIMITED AT INR 2000 EACH. 1 FREE IN DXB IN EACH DIRECTION UNLIMITED AT INR 2000 EACH. CHILD/INFANT DISCOUNTS APPLY.

FLIGHT APPLIC
THE FARE COMPONENT MUST NOT BE ON ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING EK FLIGHTS 6670 THROUGH 6671 EK FLIGHTS 6680 THROUGH 6681. AND THE FARE COMPONENT MUST BE ON ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING ANY EK FLIGHT OPERATED BY EK ANY IT FLIGHT.

SEASONS
NO SEA RESTRICTION

MINIMUM STAY
ANY EK FLIGHT OPERATED BY EK ANY IT FLIGHT. SEASONS

MAXIMUM STAY
TRAVEL FROM LAST INTERNATIONAL STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO LATER THAN 3 MONTHS AFTER DEPARTURE FROM FARE ORIGIN.

BLACKOUTS
NO BLA RESTRICTION

Can anyone explain how this meets the qualifications of a SKYWARDS SAVER fare?

Wierd ho you got the "SAVER" or "FLEX" already mentioned in your ticket. I thought this was not going to appear until 01/2010.
I purchased 3 tickets yesterday and cannot see Saver or Flex mentioned anywhere on the E-ticket.

Wierd ho you got the "SAVER" or "FLEX" already mentioned in your ticket. I thought this was not going to appear until 01/2010.
I purchased 3 tickets yesterday and cannot see Saver or Flex mentioned anywhere on the E-ticket.
Look in the lower right corner of the PDF e-Ticket Receipt. You'll see something similar to the following:
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
FQEK######### NON-END/NON-RRTE/NON-REF/SKYWARDS SA VER/VALID ON EK

It's appearing on all the e-Ticket Receipts that I generate now, even for tickets purchased several weeks ago.

You can see an example on the Skywards web site: http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=9
Look at "Earning By Fare Type" then "How do I identify a 'Skywards Flex' or 'Skywards Saver' fare - after I buy a ticket?".

I emailed Qatar Airways regarding switching status and her is their reply:

"Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your email.

Please note that registering with Privilege Club is free and membership is open to Members aged 18 years and above.

Incase you want to enroll with Privilege Club, please visit our website 'www.qmiles.com' and click on 'Join Now' tab to enroll with Privilege Club.

Once you enroll and fly and earn 50 Points, your tier level will be upgraded to Burgundy.

And once you attain your Burgundy status please email us, we will then send your discretionary upgrade request to our higher management for approval.

Also note that the upgrade will be on our higher management's approval.

Thank you,
Privilege Club Team
www.qmiles.com"


Qatar Airways, here I come...

Is anyone aware of an existing thread comparing Emirates, Etihad, and Qatar frequent flyer programs? I'd rather not hijack this thread to start one. Thank you.

Look in the lower right corner of the PDF e-Ticket Receipt. You'll see something similar to the following:
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
FQEK######### NON-END/NON-RRTE/NON-REF/SKYWARDS SA VER/VALID ON EK

It's appearing on all the e-Ticket Receipts that I generate now, even for tickets purchased several weeks ago.

You can see an example on the Skywards web site: http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=9
Look at "Earning By Fare Type" then "How do I identify a 'Skywards Flex' or 'Skywards Saver' fare - after I buy a ticket?".


That's wierd. I have checked all my e-tickets (with travel pending) and none mentioned anything other than my Skywards number, and a couple that say non-endorsable.

That's wierd. I have checked all my e-tickets (with travel pending) and none mentioned anything other than my Skywards number, and a couple that say non-endorsable.
Have you regenerated the e-Ticket receipt today, or are you looking at old copies? What is displayed in the Additional Information section?

have you regenerated the e-ticket receipt today, or are you looking at old copies? What is displayed in the additional information section?

fqek******* non end/valid on ek only.

I emailed Qatar Airways regarding switching status and here is their reply:

"Dear Sir/Madam,

... note that the upgrade will be on our higher management's approval.

Privilege Club Team
www.qmiles.com"


Qatar Airways, here I come...

Of course you should take any status match you can, if you want to be on the safe side after 01 JAN 2010, and if you think it's really worth it.

Word of caution though, sold at fair wisdom: In the past I have found that QR is absolutely unreliable and unprofessional (e.g. the check-in crew at some of their European stations).

I know for a fact that I am certainly not alone with this complaint. ...

Besides, I regularly compare EK's FFP with EY's and QR's, and if you take the online, land-side, air-side and inflight product, as well as the route network, airline/hotel partnerships and mileage accrual and rewards tables of QR, EY and EK, then EK wins hands down (both Emirates proper and its Skywards FFP).

And frankly, as of today I am really happy with EK's product, including the Skywards frequent flyer program. I especially like the relatively open-minded, dynamic and truly international staff at EK, compared to the slave-driving, military prison-mentality at QR, where often times you can just 'read' the fear from the crew's face (you probably know what I mean).

Unfortunately, it now looks as if EK are indeed preparing a massive devaluation of the Skywards program. Let's not try to kid ourselves: why else are they withholding so much essential information about the upcoming program changes after 01 JAN 2010??

A quick look at the airlines' respective route maps and hub cities (e.g. DOH vs. DXB) however, will show you why I - for one - would rather stay with EK though.

Honestly: to me the prospect of having to change my loyalty towards QR is even more dreadful than seeing EK annihilate/devalue its Skywards program. The Mid-East/GCC airlines have to especially "merit" the traffic that flies through their hubs, and I just don't think that Doha is up to the mark.

My advice (for the time being, at least until more information is available about the upcoming Skywards-changes) is therefore: Stay away from QR!! You will probably regret it if you don't.

As a matter of fact, I know there are some other airlines in the market, that will probably be happy to match your status, and that deserve (y)our business a lot more than QR.

Besides, for the time being at least, the Emirates Skywards program is still the best there is. Let's hope we can still say this after 01 JAN 2010.

I have to agree with you however, that right now it doesn't look good.

It just doesn't look good.


:(

.

This does not look good. Link: http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=9

8. How many Miles will I earn on 'Skywards Flex' and 'Skywards Saver' fares?
You will earn 100% of base Miles when you purchase 'Skyward Flex' fares. You will earn 50% of base Miles when you purchase 'Skywards Saver' fares.

Depending on what qualifies for a Skywards Flex fare, I think Emirates may end up losing a lot of restricted class travel to other carriers.

I have been a Skywards Gold member for 3 years now and my parents have been Gold for over 5 years. We only fly Emirates and don't even consider other airlines, simply because of the wonderful frequent flyer program. I can fly restricted fares and use the miles to upgrade my parents, and they can usually fly two or three business class trips a year and only really pay for one in full. Our total family spend on Emirates flights is over $100,000 per annum, and the way I read this program, it sounds like any value conscious flyer who was flying Emirates because of the fantastic FF program will most certainly be pissed off at how complicated this new structure is. They had better come up with some very attractive bonus miles and promotional offers to keep our business.

If there are any Skywards employees on this forum, here is my message to you. You're company is going to lose our business. We weren't asked for our feedback or opinion and I am disgruntled. Our companies also spend 4 times that amount on corporate international travel on Emirates, and we will pull the business.

If there are other Gold members that have been loyal to Skywards and Emirates who feel the same way, please show your support for stopping Emirates from trying to fix something that is not broken by posting to FT and other forums on the web. I am really mad at Emirates right now.

I have been a Skywards Gold member for 3 years now and my parents have been Gold for over 5 years. We only fly Emirates and don't even consider other airlines, simply because of the wonderful frequent flyer program. I can fly restricted fares and use the miles to upgrade my parents, and they can usually fly two or three business class trips a year and only really pay for one in full. Our total family spend on Emirates flights is over $100,000 per annum, and the way I read this program, it sounds like any value conscious flyer who was flying Emirates because of the fantastic FF program will most certainly be pissed off at how complicated this new structure is. They had better come up with some very attractive bonus miles and promotional offers to keep our business.

If there are any Skywards employees on this forum, here is my message to you. You're company is going to lose our business. We weren't asked for our feedback or opinion and I am disgruntled. Our companies also spend 4 times that amount on corporate international travel on Emirates, and we will pull the business.

If there are other Gold members that have been loyal to Skywards and Emirates who feel the same way, please show your support for stopping Emirates from trying to fix something that is not broken by posting to FT and other forums on the web. I am really mad at Emirates right now.

I support your move. We are a group of Saudi sponsored students in Australia and most of us have have preferred EK. We are approximately 17,000 students who are given once a year ticket by the embassy here to go home, however, many of us buy additional two or more tickets a year. From what I have read in our forum, many of us have decided to move to Etihad and Qatar Airways (which by the way is arriving to Melbourne in Dec 6th).

I have also visited the Saudis in USA forum who are even more, 75,000 students. They have the same sentiment regarding EK and most of them are moving to QR and other European carriers.

I, personally, have always recommended EK to my fellow students. Now I feel embarrased to have to chose another carrier. I feel that EK has turned me down.

As a matter of fact, I know there are some other airlines in the market, that will probably be happy to match your status, and that deserve (y)our business a lot more than QR.



:(

.

Although I have already cancelled my booking with EK and booked with QR, what other airlines are happy to match my miles?

Although I have already cancelled my booking with EK and booked with QR, what other airlines are happy to match my miles?

I'm still very much of the wait and see mentality.

I probably fly about 60,000-80,000 miles a year but don't have any particular brand loyalty.

Indeed, I've flown Emirates, Qatar and Singapore this year to various destinations.

Emirates are good in the fact it's the only decent flight option from Dubai to Glasgow but those trips will become less frequent for me in future so it's not a deciding factor.

Tickets purchased before 31 December 2009 will continue to earn Skywards Miles and tier miles under the current structure, even if travel occurs in 2010.

http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=9

Tickets purchased before 31 December 2009 will continue to earn Skywards Miles and tier miles under the current structure, even if travel occurs in 2010.

http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=9

thats good.. i have a return from JFK in january.. glad to know i'll be earning the miles as expected.

What will be critical is the release of the new award fare zones.

"Reward levels to and from our new zones, such as Dubai, will result in marginal increases while others will be reduced, bringing more rewards within reach".

http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=5

As all flights start or end in Dubai, I guess what is "marginal" is the 50,000 base mile question :)


It might not be that bad. We'll just have to wait. All these people mass moving to QR, EY etc. Getting annoyed. Feel as if they own the airline because they fly it a little bit (ok a bit harsh). Emirates is not stupid; it relies so much on its FF. It faces so much more competition from EY in emerging markets. I think that on a plain reading, the changes sound fair and reasonable. 50% of base miles vs. 100% is a little differentiating but it is EK's prerogative to do this. I don't think our current balance of miles will lose value significantly.

I think we might be pleasantly surprised.

cw

What will be critical is the release of the new award fare zones.

"Reward levels to and from our new zones, such as Dubai, will result in marginal increases while others will be reduced, bringing more rewards within reach".

http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=5

As all flights start or end in Dubai, I guess what is "marginal" is the 50,000 base mile question :)


It might not be that bad. We'll just have to wait. All these people mass moving to QR, EY etc. Getting annoyed. Feel as if they own the airline because they fly it a little bit (ok a bit harsh). Emirates is not stupid; it relies so much on its FF. It faces so much more competition from EY in emerging markets. I think that on a plain reading, the changes sound fair and reasonable. 50% of base miles vs. 100% is a little differentiating but it is EK's prerogative to do this. I don't think our current balance of miles will lose value significantly.

I think we might be pleasantly surprised.

cw


Hence I reserve my judgement until the complete details are out...

Hence I reserve my judgement until the complete details are out...


Probably after 28 October, after EK will have figured how to handle this thing:




Name Of Course: Customer Loyalty Seminar

Date: From (Oct 26 2009) To (Oct 28 2009)
Location: Tunisia
Conducted By: AACO RTC (Arab Air Carriers Organization)


How Will I Benefit?

Good customer service is the lifeblood of any business. Promotions and slash prices to bring in as many new customers as we want can be offered, but unless we can get some of those customers to come back, the business won’t be profitable for long. A business wants to make customers happy – happy enough to pass positive feedback about the business itself along to others, who may then try the product or service offered for them and in their turn become repeat customers. However, competitive market forces and changing customer expectations are presenting real challenges to customer loyalty and retention in any market industry. This practical seminar offers insights for understanding customer perceptions and expectations. It discusses as well the strategies and techniques needed for building customer loyalty. It allows as well a discussion about the key communication skills required for best practice customer service, the factors affecting customer dissatisfaction and efficient complaint handling


Course Contents:


* What Is Customer Loyalty?

1. The Importance Of Building Customer Loyalty
2. The Cost Of Not Building Customer Loyalty


* Frame For Understanding

1. Closer Look At Loyalty
2. The Customer – Supplier Chain
3. The Human- Business Model


* Core Service And Customer Service

1. Quality Core Service
2. Caring Customer Service
3. How Do We Create Loyal Customers?


* Customer Loyalty In Action

1. Core Service Versus Customer Service
2. The Relationship Between Customer Expectations And Customer Perceptions


* Acquisition Versus Retention

1. Customer Retention Strategies
2. Customer Retention Is A Proven Profit Strategy
3. Employee Retention Relates To Customer Retention


* Complaints Can Add To Loyalty

1. The Importance Of Customer Complaints
2. The Four Steps Of Recovery
3. Planned Versus Spontaneous Recovery
4. Why Is Recovering The Potentially Lost Customers Important?


* Creating Customer Loyalty: Your Role

1. Developing A Personal Strategy
2. Knowing Your Customers
3. Recognizing The Emerging Trends In Customer Service


Special Offer:

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If you register 2 months prior to the course date, you will get 10% discount of the course fees


Fees:
AACO Members: USD 800
Non AACO Members: USD 950

Register (http://www.aacortc.com/course_view.php?id=209) (http://www.aacortc.com/course_view.php?id=209)



Anyone presently in Jeddah??

.

Tickets purchased before 31 December 2009 will continue to earn Skywards Miles and tier miles under the current structure, even if travel occurs in 2010.

http://www.skywards.com/MS_Default.aspx?pgID=9
Thanks. I'm aware of that distinction, but my concern is that a ticket which meets the criteria of a Skywards Flex fare per the info in the Skywards Changes FAQ web page is actually being classified as a Skywards Saver fare. Based on this, my assumption is that most/all tickets purchased next year other than full-fare fully-refundable are going to be Skywards Saver fares, despite the generous interpretation of the FAQ text that some are assuming.

Thanks. I'm aware of that distinction, but my concern is that a ticket which meets the criteria of a Skywards Flex fare per the info in the Skywards Changes FAQ web page is actually being classified as a Skywards Saver fare. Based on this, my assumption is that most/all tickets purchased next year other than full-fare fully-refundable are going to be Skywards Saver fares, despite the generous interpretation of the FAQ text that some are assuming.

I can't see how you could be wrong. I booked a M class fare that has only 1 free stopover in DXB, and if you're fare was classified as saver, I am quite sure my fare would be the same.

Is there a way to regenerate an e-ticket receipt without asking anyone at EK to do it?

Rasheed

It might not be that bad. We'll just have to wait. All these people mass moving to QR, EY etc. Getting annoyed. Feel as if they own the airline because they fly it a little bit (ok a bit harsh). Emirates is not stupid; it relies so much on its FF. It faces so much more competition from EY in emerging markets. I think that on a plain reading, the changes sound fair and reasonable. 50% of base miles vs. 100% is a little differentiating but it is EK's prerogative to do this. I don't think our current balance of miles will lose value significantly.

I think we might be pleasantly surprised.

cw

Well, as your profile indicates, you are a Star Alliance Gold. I think one of the worse offenders is Singapore Airlines. SIA has so many fares that get no miles. So, EK looks generous with their 50%, but if other regional programs can hold up the value of the miles -- EK should rightly be afraid. Especially from North America, there are plenty of ways to get to EK destinations and even DXB itself. EK's main advantage for its non-DXB destinations for North America had to be its short transit times compared to other options (European/Asian/etc.) and/or its pricing. I actually gave the miles I am getting for an upcoming trip a reason to pay more than other carriers that are giving no miles. EK has to already know this. Anyway, things are probably not as bad as it seems, but EK not delivering complete charts (the regions, etc.) at the time of this announcement is not good either.

Rasheed

Thanks. I'm aware of that distinction, but my concern is that a ticket which meets the criteria of a Skywards Flex fare per the info in the Skywards Changes FAQ web page is actually being classified as a Skywards Saver fare. Based on this, my assumption is that most/all tickets purchased next year other than full-fare fully-refundable are going to be Skywards Saver fares, despite the generous interpretation of the FAQ text that some are assuming.

I purchased a regular business class ticket (booked on C) last night, and it showed up as SKYWARDS FLEX. So I guess it is a good sign.
Now the confusion would be classification for different Economy Class tickets.

Hi all - this my first post

As I understand it, mileage awards are going to be grouped into zones similar to the current award zones. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong.

If this is the case then UK will be part of a Western European Zone stretching from Glasgow to Malta. So in future Glasgow and Malta will earn the same miles.

Currently Glasgow earns 7256 miles for a return flight to Dubai.
Malta earns 5040 miles for a return flight to Dubai.

Therefore if my assumption is correct Glasgow and indeed the entire UK will lose out in these new proposals. As I see it -UK flyers will lose out in 3 ways.

1 Fewer tier miles making it harder to qualify
2 Fewer miles for rewards
3 Tickets will still cost more to pay for the extra fuel for miles actually flown

When you also consider that the UK pound is now worth significantly less, I think Emirates may lose UK frequent flyers.

It would be a great shame, I've always enjoyed flying Emirates and I have been very happy with the way they have looked after me.

So wise FTers.... the booking below is a R/T DXB<>HKG in January, after the new rules kick in. Fare rules for all four are posted. Which one is the horrible 50% mileage accrual fare.
Its easy to say that the cheapest one is the Skywards-Saver and the most expensive one is Skywards-Flexi , but when you read the fare conditions, all four have some form of restrictions. And no mention of Saver/FLEXI in the fare rules.

[KVS Availability Tool 5.1.2/Platinum - Sabre: Fares/DotRes/US] (http://www.KVSTool.com/?R)
DXB Dubai AE [OMDB]
HKG Hong Kong Int'l HK [VHHH]
WED 20 Jan 2010 | MON 25 Jan 2010 | R/T | Business

Carrier From To Fare Cur Fare Basis
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ----------
EK DXB HKG 9500 AED CEE1YAE1
EK DXB HKG 12710 AED JEE1YAE1
EK DXB HKG 13070 AED JRTAE1
EK DXB HKG 19400 AED JRTAE7


CEE1YAE1
ELIGIBILITY : NO ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS APPLY.

DAY_TIME : NO DAY/TIME TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

SEASONALITY : NO SEASONAL TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

FLIGHT_APPLICATION : THE FARE COMPONENT MUST BE ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY EK FLIGHT.

ADVANCE_RESERVATIONS_TICKETING : RESERVATIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR THE FIRST SECTOR.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
EK RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CANCEL ANY PNR WHERE
ITINERARY DO NOT COMPLY WITH THE RESERVATION
BOOKING CODE / RBD/
-----
IF THE COUPONS ARE NOT USED IN THE SEQUENCE
PROVIDED IN THE TICKET EK RESERVES THE RIGHT TO
CHARGE THE HIGHER FARE IF ANY. FAILING WHICH EK
WILL CANCELL ANY PNR OR INVALIDATE THE REMAINING
EK SECTOR.
-----
IF A PASSENGER FAILS TO TRAVEL ON A SECTOR BOOKED
EK RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CANCEL THE REMAINING EK
SECTOR .
-----
CANCELLED RESERVATIONS WILL NOT BE REINSTATED.
-----
TICKET DEADLINE CONTROL -
EK HAS IMPLEMENTED AN AUTOMATIC TICKET DEADLINE
CONTROL.
FURTHER INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE IN THE VARIOUS
GDS USING THE APPLICABLE ENTRY FORMAT.
PLEASE NOTE THE // IS TO BE REPLACED BY THE CHANGE
SIGN AND THE - - TO BE REPLACED BY THE ASTERISK
SIGN.
MARS - GTTL.
GALILEO - L//GIGC - - EKINFO/TTL00 OR 01 OR 02.
AMADEUS - GGAIREKRESERVATION FOLLOWED BY MS309.
SABRE - //QEK/Y/EKINFO/TTL00 OR 01 OR 02.
ABACUS - //QEK/Y/EKINFO/TTL00 OR 01 OR 02.
WORLDSPAN - //EK//G/TTL.

MINIMUM_STAY : NO MINIMUM STAY REQUIREMENTS APPLY.

MAXIMUM_STAY : TRAVEL FROM LAST STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO LATER THAN
12 MONTHS AFTER DEPARTURE FROM FARE ORIGIN.

STOPOVERS : 2 STOPOVERS PERMITTED - 1 IN EACH DIRECTION
1 IN BKK IN EACH DIRECTION AT AED 110.

TRANSFERS : UNLIMITED TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT.
FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS NOT PERMITTED ON THE FARE
COMPONENT.
EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE
COMPONENT WITHIN AUSTRALIA.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
UNLIMITED TRANSFERS PERMITTED AS PER THE ATTACHED
ROUTE MAP.

COMBINATIONS : DOUBLE OPEN JAWS NOT PERMITTED.
ADD-ONS NOT PERMITTED.
OPEN JAWS
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
WITH EK FARES
-TO FORM SINGLE OPEN JAWS.
PROVIDED -
WHEN THE OPEN SEGMENT OCCURS
-BETWEEN AREA 3 AND AFRICA/BETWEEN AREA 3 AND
EUROPE OR BETWEEN AREA 3 AND MIDDLE EAST
-WITHIN MIDDLE EAST OR WITHIN AREA 3
COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY -AE1 TYPE FARES IN ANY
RULE IN ANY TARIFF.
ROUND TRIPS/CIRCLE TRIPS
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
WITH EK FARES
-TO FORM ROUND TRIPS
-TO FORM CIRCLE TRIPS.
PROVIDED -
COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY -AE1 TYPE FARES IN ANY
RULE IN ANY TARIFF.
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED WITH DOMESTIC
FARES. VALIDATE ALL FARE COMPONENTS. FARES MUST BE
SHOWN SEPARATELY ON THE TICKET. TRAVEL MUST BE VIA
THE POINT OF COMBINATION.

BLACKOUT_DATES : NO BLACKOUT DATES APPLY.

SURCHARGES : FROM HKG TO DXB, SECTOR SURCHARGE OF HKD 33 APPLIES.

ACCOMPANIED_TRAVEL : ACCOMPANIED TRAVEL NOT REQUIRED.

TRAVEL_RESTRICTIONS : NO TRAVEL DATE RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

SALES_RESTRICTIONS : TICKETS MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN UNITED ARAB EMIRATES/HONG
KONG SAR CHINA.

PENALTIES : CANCELLATIONS

BEFORE DEPARTURE
CHARGE AED 100 FOR REFUND.
WAIVED FOR DEATH OF PASSENGER OR FAMILY MEMBER.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
PENALTY DOES NOT APPLY FOR INFANT NOT OCCUPYING A
SEAT.
----------
OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION REQUIRED IN THE CASE
OF DEATH OF PASSENGER/FAMILY MEMBER.

AFTER DEPARTURE
CANCELLATIONS PERMITTED.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
FOR PARTLY UTILISED TICKET
-FOR MIXED CLASS JOURNEYS BETWEEN CABINS DEDUCT
75PCT OF THE RETURN UTILISED RBD FARE.
-IF THE OW AND RT ARE IN THE SAME RBD DEDUCT THE
APPLICABLE ONE WAY FARE FOR THE JOURNEY TRAVELLED
-FOR ALL OTHER CASES DEDUCT 75 PERCENT OF THE
TICKETED FARE.
----------
REFUND IS NOT APPLICABLE ON REMAINING FLIGHT
COUPONS IF THE TICKET IS UTILISED OUT OF SEQUENCE.
----------
ANYTIME CHANGES PERMITTED FREE OF CHARGE INCLUDING
SKYWARDS UPGRADES FOR SAME DATE/SAME FLIGHTS.
----------
REBOOKING / REISSUES ARE TO BE DONE BY THE
ORIGINIAL ISSUING AGENT OR EK OFFICES ONLY.
----------
FARE CAN BE UPGRADED TO A HIGHER FARE TYPE FROM
THE POINT OF ORIGIN PROVIDED THE CONDITIONS OF THE
HIGHER FARE HAVE BEEN MET.
IF THE UPGRADED TICKET IS SUBSEQUENTLY CANCELLED
THE ORIGINAL PENALTY WILL APPLY.

HIP_MILEAGE_EXCEPTIONS : NOTE -
SURCHARGE AND EXCESS MILEAGE CAN BE IGNORED.
HIGHER INTERMEDIATE POINT RULE DOES NOT APPLY FOR
STOPOVERS/CONNECTIONS.
--------------------------------------------------
THESE FARES SHOULD NOT BE COMPARED/CHECKED WITH
THE FOLLOWING-
- HIGH IMMEDIATE FARE -HIF-
- CIRCLE TRIP MINIMUM CHECK -CTM-

TICKET_ENDORSEMENTS : THE ORIGINAL AND THE REISSUED TICKET MUST BE ANNOTATED
- NON-END/NON-RRTE/NON-REF/ - AND - SKYWARDS FLEX - IN
THE ENDORSEMENT BOX.

CHILDREN_DISCOUNTS : CNN/ACCOMPANIED CHILD PSGR 2-11 - CHARGE 75 PERCENT OF
THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS CH.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
OR - 1ST INF/INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT PSGR UNDER 2 -
CHARGE 10 PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS IN.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
WHEN INFANT REACHES 2 YEARS OF AGE ON/BEFORE
DEPARTURE FROM POINT OF TURNAROUND A SEAT
MUST BE BOOKED ON THE RETURN LEG AND THE
APPLICABLE CHILD FARE CHARGED ON HALF ROUNDTRIP
BASIS WITH OUTBOUND INFANT FARE.THE EK INFORMATION
PAGE TITLED INFANTS IN THE VARIOUS GDS REFERENCE
PAGES REFLECTS THIS INFORMATION IN DETAIL.
OR - 2ND INS/INFANT WITH A SEAT PSGR UNDER 2 - CHARGE
75 PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS CH.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
OR - UNN/UNACCOMPANIED CHILD PSGR 5-11 - CHARGE 100
PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS CH.

TOUR_CONDUCTOR_DISCOUNTS : TUR/TOUR CONDUCTOR PSGR - NO DISCOUNT.

AGENT_DISCOUNTS : AGT/AGENT PSGR - NO DISCOUNT.

ALL_OTHER_DISCOUNTS : NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
NO OTHER DISCOUNTS PERMITTED

MISCELLANEOUS_PROVISIONS : NO PROVISIONS APPLY.

GROUPS : NO GROUP PROVISIONS APPLY.

TOURS : NO TOUR PROVISIONS APPLY.

VISIT_ANOTHER_COUNTRY : NO VISIT ANOTHER COUNTRY PROVISIONS APPLY.

DEPOSITS : NO DEPOSIT PROVISIONS APPLY.

RULE_APPLICATION_AND_OTHER_CONDITIONS : EXCURSION FARES FROM UNITED ARAB EMIRATES TO
AREA 3
APPLICATION
AREA
THESE FARES APPLY
FROM UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
TO AREA 3.
CLASS OF SERVICE
THESE FARES APPLY FOR BUSINESS CLASS SERVICE.
TYPES OF TRANSPORTATION
FARES GOVERNED BY THIS RULE CAN BE USED TO CREATE
ROUND-TRIP/CIRCLE-TRIP/OPEN-JAW JOURNEYS.
THESE FARES MAY NOT BE USED FOR INDIVIDUAL
INCLUSIVE TOURS AND THESE FARES MAY NOT BE USED
FOR GROUP INCLUSIVE TOURS.
FARES ONLY APPLY IF PURCHASED BEFORE DEPARTURE.
CAPACITY LIMITATIONS
THE CARRIER SHALL LIMIT THE NUMBER OF PASSENGERS
CARRIED ON ANY ONE FLIGHT AT FARES GOVERNED BY
THIS RULE AND SUCH FARES WILL NOT NECESSARILY BE
AVAILABLE ON ALL FLIGHTS. THE NUMBER OF SEATS,
WHICH THE CARRIER SHALL MAKE AVAILABLE ON A GIVEN
FLIGHT, WILL BE DETERMINED BY THE CARRIER$S BEST
JUDGEMENT.
OTHER CONDITIONS
PNRS WITH FICTITIOUS TICKET NUMBERS WILL BE
SUBJECT TO A CHARGE OF USD 50/- EQUIVALENT PER
PASSENGER.
----------
PNRS WITH FICTITIOUS NAMES WILL BE SUBJECT TO A
CHARGE OF USD 50/- EQUIVALENT PER PASSENGER.
----------
ALL FARES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE OR WITHDRAWAL
WITHOUT NOTICE.
FARES ARE ONLY GUARANTEED IF AUTO-PRICED AND
TICKETED IN GDS ON THE SAME DAY.
----------
PASSENGER EXPENSES NOT PERMITTED
----------
FARES ARE INCLUSIVE OF FUEL COST AND NO FURTHER EK
FUEL SURCHARGE SHOULD APPLY EXCEPT FOR TRAVEL TO
MANILA.




JEE1YAE1
ELIGIBILITY : NO ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS APPLY.

DAY_TIME : NO DAY/TIME TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

SEASONALITY : NO SEASONAL TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

FLIGHT_APPLICATION : THE FARE COMPONENT MUST BE ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY EK FLIGHT.

ADVANCE_RESERVATIONS_TICKETING : RESERVATIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR THE FIRST SECTOR.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
EK RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CANCEL ANY PNR WHERE
ITINERARY DO NOT COMPLY WITH THE RESERVATION
BOOKING CODE / RBD/
-----
IF THE COUPONS ARE NOT USED IN THE SEQUENCE
PROVIDED IN THE TICKET EK RESERVES THE RIGHT TO
CHARGE THE HIGHER FARE IF ANY. FAILING WHICH EK
WILL CANCELL ANY PNR OR INVALIDATE THE REMAINING
EK SECTOR.
-----
IF A PASSENGER FAILS TO TRAVEL ON A SECTOR BOOKED
EK RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CANCEL THE REMAINING EK
SECTOR .
-----
CANCELLED RESERVATIONS WILL NOT BE REINSTATED.
-----
TICKET DEADLINE CONTROL -
EK HAS IMPLEMENTED AN AUTOMATIC TICKET DEADLINE
CONTROL.
FURTHER INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE IN THE VARIOUS
GDS USING THE APPLICABLE ENTRY FORMAT.
PLEASE NOTE THE // IS TO BE REPLACED BY THE CHANGE
SIGN AND THE - - TO BE REPLACED BY THE ASTERISK
SIGN.
MARS - GTTL.
GALILEO - L//GIGC - - EKINFO/TTL00 OR 01 OR 02.
AMADEUS - GGAIREKRESERVATION FOLLOWED BY MS309.
SABRE - //QEK/Y/EKINFO/TTL00 OR 01 OR 02.
ABACUS - //QEK/Y/EKINFO/TTL00 OR 01 OR 02.
WORLDSPAN - //EK//G/TTL.

MINIMUM_STAY : NO MINIMUM STAY REQUIREMENTS APPLY.

MAXIMUM_STAY : TRAVEL FROM LAST STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO LATER THAN
12 MONTHS AFTER DEPARTURE FROM FARE ORIGIN.

STOPOVERS : 2 STOPOVERS PERMITTED - 1 IN EACH DIRECTION
1 IN BKK IN EACH DIRECTION AT AED 110.

TRANSFERS : UNLIMITED TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT.
FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS NOT PERMITTED ON THE FARE
COMPONENT.
EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE
COMPONENT WITHIN AUSTRALIA.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
UNLIMITED TRANSFERS PERMITTED AS PER THE ATTACHED
ROUTE MAP.

COMBINATIONS : DOUBLE OPEN JAWS NOT PERMITTED.
ADD-ONS NOT PERMITTED.
OPEN JAWS
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
WITH EK FARES
-TO FORM SINGLE OPEN JAWS.
PROVIDED -
WHEN THE OPEN SEGMENT OCCURS
-BETWEEN AREA 3 AND AFRICA/BETWEEN AREA 3 AND
EUROPE OR BETWEEN AREA 3 AND MIDDLE EAST
-WITHIN MIDDLE EAST OR WITHIN AREA 3
COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY -AE1 TYPE FARES IN ANY
RULE IN ANY TARIFF.
ROUND TRIPS/CIRCLE TRIPS
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
WITH EK FARES
-TO FORM ROUND TRIPS
-TO FORM CIRCLE TRIPS.
PROVIDED -
COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY -AE1 TYPE FARES IN ANY
RULE IN ANY TARIFF.
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED WITH DOMESTIC
FARES. VALIDATE ALL FARE COMPONENTS. FARES MUST BE
SHOWN SEPARATELY ON THE TICKET. TRAVEL MUST BE VIA
THE POINT OF COMBINATION.

BLACKOUT_DATES : NO BLACKOUT DATES APPLY.

SURCHARGES : FROM HKG TO DXB, SECTOR SURCHARGE OF HKD 33 APPLIES.

ACCOMPANIED_TRAVEL : ACCOMPANIED TRAVEL NOT REQUIRED.

TRAVEL_RESTRICTIONS : NO TRAVEL DATE RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

SALES_RESTRICTIONS : TICKETS MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN UNITED ARAB EMIRATES/HONG
KONG SAR CHINA.

PENALTIES : CANCELLATIONS

BEFORE DEPARTURE
CHARGE AED 100 FOR REFUND.
WAIVED FOR DEATH OF PASSENGER OR FAMILY MEMBER.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
PENALTY DOES NOT APPLY FOR INFANT NOT OCCUPYING A
SEAT.
----------
OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION REQUIRED IN THE CASE
OF DEATH OF PASSENGER/FAMILY MEMBER.

AFTER DEPARTURE
CANCELLATIONS PERMITTED.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
FOR PARTLY UTILISED TICKET
-FOR MIXED CLASS JOURNEYS BETWEEN CABINS DEDUCT
75PCT OF THE RETURN UTILISED RBD FARE.
-IF THE OW AND RT ARE IN THE SAME RBD DEDUCT THE
APPLICABLE ONE WAY FARE FOR THE JOURNEY TRAVELLED
-FOR ALL OTHER CASES DEDUCT 75 PERCENT OF THE
TICKETED FARE.
----------
REFUND IS NOT APPLICABLE ON REMAINING FLIGHT
COUPONS IF THE TICKET IS UTILISED OUT OF SEQUENCE.
----------
ANYTIME CHANGES PERMITTED FREE OF CHARGE INCLUDING
SKYWARDS UPGRADES FOR SAME DATE/SAME FLIGHTS.
----------
REBOOKING / REISSUES ARE TO BE DONE BY THE
ORIGINIAL ISSUING AGENT OR EK OFFICES ONLY.
----------
FARE CAN BE UPGRADED TO A HIGHER FARE TYPE FROM
THE POINT OF ORIGIN PROVIDED THE CONDITIONS OF THE
HIGHER FARE HAVE BEEN MET.
IF THE UPGRADED TICKET IS SUBSEQUENTLY CANCELLED
THE ORIGINAL PENALTY WILL APPLY.

HIP_MILEAGE_EXCEPTIONS : NOTE -
SURCHARGE AND EXCESS MILEAGE CAN BE IGNORED.
HIGHER INTERMEDIATE POINT RULE DOES NOT APPLY FOR
STOPOVERS/CONNECTIONS.
--------------------------------------------------
THESE FARES SHOULD NOT BE COMPARED/CHECKED WITH
THE FOLLOWING-
- HIGH IMMEDIATE FARE -HIF-
- CIRCLE TRIP MINIMUM CHECK -CTM-

TICKET_ENDORSEMENTS : THE ORIGINAL AND THE REISSUED TICKET MUST BE ANNOTATED
- NON-END/NON-RRTE/NON-REF/ - AND - SKYWARDS FLEX - IN
THE ENDORSEMENT BOX.

CHILDREN_DISCOUNTS : CNN/ACCOMPANIED CHILD PSGR 2-11 - CHARGE 75 PERCENT OF
THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS CH.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
OR - 1ST INF/INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT PSGR UNDER 2 -
CHARGE 10 PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS IN.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
WHEN INFANT REACHES 2 YEARS OF AGE ON/BEFORE
DEPARTURE FROM POINT OF TURNAROUND A SEAT
MUST BE BOOKED ON THE RETURN LEG AND THE
APPLICABLE CHILD FARE CHARGED ON HALF ROUNDTRIP
BASIS WITH OUTBOUND INFANT FARE.THE EK INFORMATION
PAGE TITLED INFANTS IN THE VARIOUS GDS REFERENCE
PAGES REFLECTS THIS INFORMATION IN DETAIL.
OR - 2ND INS/INFANT WITH A SEAT PSGR UNDER 2 - CHARGE
75 PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS CH.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
OR - UNN/UNACCOMPANIED CHILD PSGR 5-11 - CHARGE 100
PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS CH.

TOUR_CONDUCTOR_DISCOUNTS : TUR/TOUR CONDUCTOR PSGR - NO DISCOUNT.

AGENT_DISCOUNTS : AGT/AGENT PSGR - NO DISCOUNT.

ALL_OTHER_DISCOUNTS : NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
NO OTHER DISCOUNTS PERMITTED

MISCELLANEOUS_PROVISIONS : NO PROVISIONS APPLY.

GROUPS : NO GROUP PROVISIONS APPLY.

TOURS : NO TOUR PROVISIONS APPLY.

VISIT_ANOTHER_COUNTRY : NO VISIT ANOTHER COUNTRY PROVISIONS APPLY.

DEPOSITS : NO DEPOSIT PROVISIONS APPLY.

RULE_APPLICATION_AND_OTHER_CONDITIONS : EXCURSION FARES FROM UNITED ARAB EMIRATES TO
AREA 3
APPLICATION
AREA
THESE FARES APPLY
FROM UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
TO AREA 3.
CLASS OF SERVICE
THESE FARES APPLY FOR BUSINESS CLASS SERVICE.
TYPES OF TRANSPORTATION
FARES GOVERNED BY THIS RULE CAN BE USED TO CREATE
ROUND-TRIP/CIRCLE-TRIP/OPEN-JAW JOURNEYS.
THESE FARES MAY NOT BE USED FOR INDIVIDUAL
INCLUSIVE TOURS AND THESE FARES MAY NOT BE USED
FOR GROUP INCLUSIVE TOURS.
FARES ONLY APPLY IF PURCHASED BEFORE DEPARTURE.
CAPACITY LIMITATIONS
THE CARRIER SHALL LIMIT THE NUMBER OF PASSENGERS
CARRIED ON ANY ONE FLIGHT AT FARES GOVERNED BY
THIS RULE AND SUCH FARES WILL NOT NECESSARILY BE
AVAILABLE ON ALL FLIGHTS. THE NUMBER OF SEATS,
WHICH THE CARRIER SHALL MAKE AVAILABLE ON A GIVEN
FLIGHT, WILL BE DETERMINED BY THE CARRIER$S BEST
JUDGEMENT.
OTHER CONDITIONS
PNRS WITH FICTITIOUS TICKET NUMBERS WILL BE
SUBJECT TO A CHARGE OF USD 50/- EQUIVALENT PER
PASSENGER.
----------
PNRS WITH FICTITIOUS NAMES WILL BE SUBJECT TO A
CHARGE OF USD 50/- EQUIVALENT PER PASSENGER.
----------
ALL FARES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE OR WITHDRAWAL
WITHOUT NOTICE.
FARES ARE ONLY GUARANTEED IF AUTO-PRICED AND
TICKETED IN GDS ON THE SAME DAY.
----------
PASSENGER EXPENSES NOT PERMITTED
----------
FARES ARE INCLUSIVE OF FUEL COST AND NO FURTHER EK
FUEL SURCHARGE SHOULD APPLY EXCEPT FOR TRAVEL TO
MANILA.



JRTAE1
ELIGIBILITY : NO ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS APPLY.

DAY_TIME : NO DAY/TIME TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

SEASONALITY : NO SEASONAL TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

FLIGHT_APPLICATION : THE FARE COMPONENT MUST BE ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY EK FLIGHT.

ADVANCE_RESERVATIONS_TICKETING : RESERVATIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR THE FIRST SECTOR.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
EK RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CANCEL ANY PNR WHERE
ITINERARY DO NOT COMPLY WITH THE RESERVATION
BOOKING CODE / RBD/
-----
IF THE COUPONS ARE NOT USED IN THE SEQUENCE
PROVIDED IN THE TICKET EK RESERVES THE RIGHT TO
CHARGE THE HIGHER FARE IF ANY. FAILING WHICH EK
WILL CANCELL ANY PNR OR INVALIDATE THE REMAINING
EK SECTOR.
-----
IF A PASSENGER FAILS TO TRAVEL ON A SECTOR BOOKED
EK RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CANCEL THE REMAINING EK
SECTOR .
-----
CANCELLED RESERVATIONS WILL NOT BE REINSTATED.
-----
TICKET DEADLINE CONTROL -
EK HAS IMPLEMENTED AN AUTOMATIC TICKET DEADLINE
CONTROL.
FURTHER INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE IN THE VARIOUS
GDS USING THE APPLICABLE ENTRY FORMAT.
PLEASE NOTE THE // IS TO BE REPLACED BY THE CHANGE
SIGN AND THE - - TO BE REPLACED BY THE ASTERISK
SIGN.
MARS - GTTL.
GALILEO - L//GIGC - - EKINFO/TTL00 OR 01 OR 02.
AMADEUS - GGAIREKRESERVATION FOLLOWED BY MS309.
SABRE - //QEK/Y/EKINFO/TTL00 OR 01 OR 02.
ABACUS - //QEK/Y/EKINFO/TTL00 OR 01 OR 02.
WORLDSPAN - //EK//G/TTL.

MINIMUM_STAY : NO MINIMUM STAY REQUIREMENTS APPLY.

MAXIMUM_STAY : TRAVEL FROM LAST INTERNATIONAL STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE
NO LATER THAN 12 MONTHS AFTER DEPARTURE FROM FARE
ORIGIN.

STOPOVERS : UNLIMITED FREE STOPOVERS PERMITTED IN BKK.

TRANSFERS : UNLIMITED TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT.
FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS NOT PERMITTED ON THE FARE
COMPONENT.
EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE
COMPONENT WITHIN AUSTRALIA.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
UNLIMITED TRANSFERS PERMITTED AS PER THE ATTACHED
ROUTE MAP.

COMBINATIONS : DOUBLE OPEN JAWS NOT PERMITTED.
ADD-ONS NOT PERMITTED.
OPEN JAWS/ROUND TRIPS/CIRCLE TRIPS
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
WITH EK FARES
-TO FORM SINGLE OPEN JAWS
-TO FORM ROUND TRIPS
-TO FORM CIRCLE TRIPS
A MAXIMUM OF TWO INTERNATIONAL FARE COMPONENTS
PERMITTED.
PROVIDED -
COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY F-AE1/J-AE1/P-AE1 TYPE
FARES OR ANY ECONOMY RESTRICTED/SPECIAL EXCURSION
FARE-TYPE FARES IN ANY RULE IN TARIFF
IPRMEAS - BETWEEN THE MIDDLE EAST-AREA 3.
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED WITH DOMESTIC
FARES. VALIDATE ALL FARE COMPONENTS. FARES MUST BE
SHOWN SEPARATELY ON THE TICKET. TRAVEL MUST BE VIA
THE POINT OF COMBINATION.

BLACKOUT_DATES : NO BLACKOUT DATES APPLY.

SURCHARGES : FROM HKG TO DXB, SECTOR SURCHARGE OF HKD 33 APPLIES.

ACCOMPANIED_TRAVEL : ACCOMPANIED TRAVEL NOT REQUIRED.

TRAVEL_RESTRICTIONS : NO TRAVEL DATE RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

SALES_RESTRICTIONS : TICKETS MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN UNITED ARAB EMIRATES/HONG
KONG SAR CHINA.

PENALTIES : CHANGES/CANCELLATIONS

ANY TIME
CHANGES/CANCELLATIONS PERMITTED.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
FOR PARTLY UTILISED TICKET
-FOR MIXED CLASS JOURNEYS BETWEEN CABINS DEDUCT
75PCT OF THE RETURN UTILISED RBD FARE.
-IF THE OW AND RT ARE IN THE SAME RBD DEDUCT THE
APPLICABLE ONE WAY FARE FOR THE JOURNEY TRAVELLED
-FOR ALL OTHER CASES DEDUCT 75 PERCENT OF THE
TICKETED FARE.
----------
REFUND IS NOT APPLICABLE ON REMAINING FLIGHT
COUPONS IF THE TICKET IS UTILIZED OUT OF SEQUENCE.
----------
ANYTIME CHANGES PERMITTED FREE OF CHARGE INCLUDING
SKYWARDS UPGRADES FOR SAME DATE/SAME FLIGHTS.
----------
REBOOKING / REISSUES ARE TO BE DONE BY THE
THE ORIGINIAL ISSUING AGENT OR EK OFFICES ONLY.
----------
FARE CAN BE UPGRADED TO A HIGHER FARE TYPE FROM
THE POINT OF ORIGIN PROVIDED THE CONDITIONS OF THE
HIGHER FARE HAVE BEEN MET.
IF THE UPGRADED TICKET IS SUBSEQUENTLY CANCELLED
THE ORIGINAL PENALTY WILL APPLY.

HIP_MILEAGE_EXCEPTIONS : NOTE -
SURCHARGE AND EXCESS MILEAGE CAN BE IGNORED.
HIGHER INTERMEDIATE POINT RULE DOES NOT APPLY FOR
STOPOVERS/CONNECTIONS.
--------------------------------------------------
THESE FARES SHOULD NOT BE COMPARED/CHECKED WITH
THE FOLLOWING-
- HIGH IMMEDIATE FARE -HIF-
- CIRCLE TRIP MINIMUM CHECK -CTM-

TICKET_ENDORSEMENTS : THE ORIGINAL AND THE REISSUED TICKET MUST BE ANNOTATED
- NON-END/NON-RRTE/NON-REF/ - AND - SKYWARDS FLEX - IN
THE ENDORSEMENT BOX.

CHILDREN_DISCOUNTS : CNN/ACCOMPANIED CHILD PSGR 2-11 - CHARGE 75 PERCENT OF
THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS CH.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
OR - 1ST INF/INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT PSGR UNDER 2 -
CHARGE 10 PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS IN.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
WHEN INFANT REACHES 2 YEARS OF AGE ON/BEFORE
DEPARTURE FROM POINT OF TURNAROUND A SEAT
MUST BE BOOKED ON THE RETURN LEG AND THE
APPLICABLE CHILD FARE CHARGED ON HALF ROUNDTRIP
BASIS WITH OUTBOUND INFANT FARE.THE EK INFORMATION
PAGE TITLED INFANTS IN THE VARIOUS GDS REFERENCE
PAGES REFLECTS THIS INFORMATION IN DETAIL.
OR - 2ND INS/INFANT WITH A SEAT PSGR UNDER 2 - CHARGE
75 PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS CH.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
OR - UNN/UNACCOMPANIED CHILD PSGR 5-11 - CHARGE 100
PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS CH.

TOUR_CONDUCTOR_DISCOUNTS : TUR/TOUR CONDUCTOR PSGR - NO DISCOUNT.

AGENT_DISCOUNTS : AGT/AGENT PSGR - NO DISCOUNT.

ALL_OTHER_DISCOUNTS : NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
NO OTHER DISCOUNTS PERMITTED

MISCELLANEOUS_PROVISIONS : NO PROVISIONS APPLY.

GROUPS : NO GROUP PROVISIONS APPLY.

TOURS : NO TOUR PROVISIONS APPLY.

VISIT_ANOTHER_COUNTRY : NO VISIT ANOTHER COUNTRY PROVISIONS APPLY.

DEPOSITS : NO DEPOSIT PROVISIONS APPLY.

RULE_APPLICATION_AND_OTHER_CONDITIONS : NORMAL BUSINESS CLASS FARES FROM UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
TO
AREA 3
APPLICATION
AREA
THESE FARES APPLY
FROM UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
TO AREA 3.
CLASS OF SERVICE
THESE FARES APPLY FOR BUSINESS CLASS SERVICE.
TYPES OF TRANSPORTATION
THIS RULE GOVERNS ROUND-TRIP FARES.
FARES GOVERNED BY THIS RULE CAN BE USED TO CREATE
ROUND-TRIP/CIRCLE-TRIP/SINGLE OPEN-JAW JOURNEYS.
THESE FARES MAY NOT BE USED FOR INDIVIDUAL
INCLUSIVE TOURS AND THESE FARES MAY NOT BE USED
FOR GROUP INCLUSIVE TOURS.
FARES ONLY APPLY IF PURCHASED BEFORE DEPARTURE.
-----
CAPACITY LIMITATIONS
THE CARRIER SHALL LIMIT THE NUMBER OF PASSENGERS
CARRIED ON ANY ONE FLIGHT AT FARES GOVERNED BY
THIS RULE AND SUCH FARES WILL NOT NECESSARILY BE
AVAILABLE ON ALL FLIGHTS. THE NUMBER OF SEATS,
WHICH THE CARRIER SHALL MAKE AVAILABLE ON A GIVEN
FLIGHT, WILL BE DETERMINED BY THE CARRIER$S BEST
JUDGEMENT.
OTHER CONDITIONS
PNRS WITH FICTITIOUS TICKET NUMBERS WILL BE
SUBJECT TO A CHARGE OF USD 50/- EQUIVALENT PER
PASSENGER.
----------
PNRS WITH FICTITIOUS NAMES WILL BE SUBJECT TO A
CHARGE OF USD 50/- EQUIVALENT PER PASSENGER.
----------
ALL FARES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE OR WITHDRAWAL
WITHOUT NOTICE.
FARES ARE ONLY GUARANTEED IF AUTO-PRICED AND
TICKETED IN GDS ON THE SAME DAY.
----------
PASSENGER EXPENSES NOT PERMITTED
--------
FARES ARE INCLUSIVE OF FUEL COST AND NO FURTHER EK
FUEL SURCHARGE SHOULD APPLY EXCEPT FOR TRAVEL TO
MANILA.



JRTAE7
ELIGIBILITY : NO ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS APPLY.

DAY_TIME : NO DAY/TIME TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

SEASONALITY : NO SEASONAL TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

FLIGHT_APPLICATION : NO FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

ADVANCE_RESERVATIONS_TICKETING : NO ADVANCE RESERVATIONS/TICKETING REQUIREMENTS APPLY.

MINIMUM_STAY : NO MINIMUM STAY REQUIREMENTS APPLY.

MAXIMUM_STAY : TRAVEL FROM LAST STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO LATER THAN
12 MONTHS AFTER DEPARTURE FROM FARE ORIGIN.

STOPOVERS : UNLIMITED FREE STOPOVERS PERMITTED.

TRANSFERS : UNLIMITED TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT.
FARE BREAK AND EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON
THE FARE COMPONENT.

COMBINATIONS : FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS WITH
ANY FARE FOR ANY CARRIER IN ANY RULE AND TARIFF TO
FORM SINGLE/DOUBLE OPEN JAWS/ROUND TRIPS/CIRCLE
TRIPS.
END-ON-END PERMITTED. VALIDATE ALL FARE COMPONENTS.
TRAVEL MUST BE VIA POINT OF COMBINATION.
ADD-ONS PERMITTED.

BLACKOUT_DATES : NO BLACKOUT DATES APPLY.

SURCHARGES : FROM HKG TO DXB, SECTOR SURCHARGE OF HKD 33 APPLIES.

ACCOMPANIED_TRAVEL : ACCOMPANIED TRAVEL NOT REQUIRED.

TRAVEL_RESTRICTIONS : NO TRAVEL DATE RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

SALES_RESTRICTIONS : NO SALES RESTRICTIONS APPLY.

PENALTIES : NO PENALTIES APPLY.

HIP_MILEAGE_EXCEPTIONS : NO HIP OR MILEAGE EXCEPTIONS APPLY.

TICKET_ENDORSEMENTS : TICKET ENDORSEMENT NOT REQUIRED.

CHILDREN_DISCOUNTS : CNN/ACCOMPANIED CHILD PSGR 2-11 - CHARGE 75 PERCENT OF
THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS CH AND
DISCOUNT PERCENT.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
OR - INF/INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT PSGR UNDER 2 - CHARGE 10
PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS IN AND
DISCOUNT PERCENT.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
OR - INS/INFANT WITH A SEAT PSGR UNDER 2 - CHARGE 75
PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKETING CODE - BASE FARE CODE PLUS CH AND
DISCOUNT PERCENT.
MUST BE ACCOMPANIED ON ALL FLIGHTS IN THE SAME
COMPARTMENT BY ADULT PSGR 18 OR OLDER.
OR - UNN/UNACCOMPANIED CHILD PSGR 5-11 - CHARGE 100
PERCENT OF THE LOWEST APPLICABLE FARE.

TOUR_CONDUCTOR_DISCOUNTS : NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
DISCOUNTS APPLY. INFORMATION IS NOT AVAILABLE
AT THIS TIME...CONTACT CARRIER FOR DETAILS.

AGENT_DISCOUNTS : NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
DISCOUNTS APPLY. INFORMATION IS NOT AVAILABLE
AT THIS TIME. CONTACT CARRIER FOR DETAILS.

ALL_OTHER_DISCOUNTS : NO DISCOUNTS FOR OTHERS.

MISCELLANEOUS_PROVISIONS : NO PROVISIONS APPLY.

GROUPS : NO GROUP PROVISIONS APPLY.

TOURS : NO TOUR PROVISIONS APPLY.

VISIT_ANOTHER_COUNTRY : NO VISIT ANOTHER COUNTRY PROVISIONS APPLY.

DEPOSITS : NO DEPOSIT PROVISIONS APPLY.

VOLUNTARY_CHANGES : NO VOLUNTARY CHANGES DATA FOUND.

RULE_APPLICATION_AND_OTHER_CONDITIONS : NORMAL FARES BETWEEN MIDDLE EAST AND TC3
APPLICATION
AREA
THESE FARES APPLY
BETWEEN MIDDLE EAST AND AREA 3.
CLASS OF SERVICE
THESE FARES APPLY FOR FIRST/BUSINESS/ECONOMY CLASS
SERVICE.
TYPES OF TRANSPORTATION
FARES ONLY APPLY IF PURCHASED BEFORE DEPARTURE.
EXCEPTION-
MAY BE USED FOR EN-ROUTE UPGRADING FROM A LOWER
FARE PROVIDED ALL CONDITIONS OF THESE FARES ARE
MET.

So wise FTers.... the booking below is a R/T DXB<>HKG in January, after the new rules kick in. Fare rules for all four are posted. Which one is the horrible 50% mileage accrual fare.
Its easy to say that the cheapest one is the Skywards-Saver and the most expensive one is Skywards-Flexi , but when you read the fare conditions, all four have some form of restrictions. And no mention of Saver/FLEXI in the fare rules.



All of them would seem to be FLEX

All of them state

ELIGIBILITY : NO ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS APPLY.

The cheaper 2 also state


TICKET_ENDORSEMENTS : THE ORIGINAL AND THE REISSUED TICKET MUST BE ANNOTATED
- NON-END/NON-RRTE/NON-REF/ - AND - SKYWARDS FLEX - IN
THE ENDORSEMENT BOX.

The most expensive rules have no mention of endorsements

Dave

Therefore if my assumption is correct Glasgow and indeed the entire UK will lose out in these new proposals. As I see it -UK flyers will lose out in 3 ways.


Your assumption may be flawed since details of the zones has not been published yet; need to to wait till the zone info is released to be able to tell

Dave

Hi all - this my first post

As I understand it, mileage awards are going to be grouped into zones similar to the current award zones. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong.

If this is the case then UK will be part of a Western European Zone stretching from Glasgow to Malta. So in future Glasgow and Malta will earn the same miles.

Currently Glasgow earns 7256 miles for a return flight to Dubai.
Malta earns 5040 miles for a return flight to Dubai.

Therefore if my assumption is correct Glasgow and indeed the entire UK will lose out in these new proposals. As I see it -UK flyers will lose out in 3 ways.

1 Fewer tier miles making it harder to qualify
2 Fewer miles for rewards
3 Tickets will still cost more to pay for the extra fuel for miles actually flown

When you also consider that the UK pound is now worth significantly less, I think Emirates may lose UK frequent flyers.

It would be a great shame, I've always enjoyed flying Emirates and I have been very happy with the way they have looked after me.

Have a look at the table I've calculated according to the current reward zones and the 18 new zones I suspect they will do. Accordingto my calculations uk may be better off but these are only assumptions.

I believe the earnings table will follow the same structure as redeeming rewards and be based on zones that are shown for the rewards currently.

I have compiled a table to show the 18 different zones I think EK will implement. These are based on miles required to redeem from dubai as origin point and also divided into regions. I also suspect the miles earnt from each zone will calculated as 10% of miles required to redeem. I have put next to each zone how much miles are earned. As you can see, certain destinations work out better while others do not.

Example 1: Birmingham to Dubai currently earns 3481 miles in economy. Under the new scheme it would earn 4000 miles.

Example 2: San Francisc to Dubai currently earns 8088 miles in economy. Under the new scheme it would earn only 7000 miles.

Standalone Home Zone: Dubai

Zone A - 1000 miles: Muscat, Doha, Bahrain

Zone B - 1500 miles: Riyadh, Tehran, Kuwait, Dammam, Jeddah, Sanaa

Zone C - 2500 miles: Peshawar, Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, Ahmedabad, Mumbai, Delhi

Zone D - 2500 miles: Addis Ababa, Khartoum, Cairo, Amman, Damascus, Beirut, Lanarca

Zone E - 3500 miles: Hyderabad, Bangalore, Chennai, Kozhikode, Cochin, Thiruvananthapuram, Colombo, Male

Zone F - 3500 miles: Seychelles, Dar es Salaam, Nairobi, Entebbe, Tripoli, Tunis

Zone G - 3500 miles: Istanbul, Athens

Zone H - 4000 miles: Kolkata, Dhaka

Zone I - 4000 miles: Malta, Rome, Milan, Venice, Munich, Vienna, Zurich, Moscow, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Dusseldorf, Paris, Nice

Zone J - 4000 miles: London, Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow

Zone K - 4500 miles: Cassablanca, Abidjan, Accra, Luanda, Cape Town, Johannesburg, Durban, Mauritius

Zone L - 5000 miles: Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Jakarta, Manila, Hong Kong, Guangzhou, Shanghai, Beijing, Seoul

Zone M - 6000 miles: Osaka

Zone N - 7000 miles: Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane

Zone O - 7000 miles: Auckland, Christchurch

Zone P - 7000 miles: Sao Paulo

Zone Q - 7000 miles: New York, Toronto, Houston

Zone R - 7000 miles:Los Angleles, San Francisco

From Business Traveller Magazine:


Emirates Skywards changes designed to reward most valuable customers



Brian LaBelle, senior vice-president of Skywards, the Emirates frequent flyer programme, has responded to criticism of the new terms being introduced for the members of Emirates popular Skywards frequent flyer programme, now numbering almost five million.

In an email sent out to its members earlier this month, the airline indicated that “In order to better cater to the different needs of our loyal customers, Skywards will evolve into a more modern, sophisticated and personalised programme”.

The email went on to detail ten major changes, including linking the earning of miles to the type of ticket purchased to benefit members who pay higher fares. Earning zones will also replace the existing miles between cities calculations, and tier miles will be earned by fare type, destination and class of travel.

In a recent topic posted on the businesstraveller.com forum (“Skywards – Changing for Bad or Worse”) the reaction has not been positive, with typical comments including “The ten key changes are not that clear and the website is poorly designed”. There has also been criticism of the partial nature of the information released and Skywards staff being unable to help with further information.

Speaking exclusively with Business Traveller from Dubai, Brian LaBelle accepted the criticism and said the feedback was valuable..................................the rest of the article can be seen on the link below:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/emirates-skywards

The link has changed to this

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/emirates-skywards

The only thing I am happy about is that they were shocked at the reaction of its customers. Will it prove successful? Not sure. Will they back off? I doubt it. Will they try to alter some of the changes? I would if I was in their place. Will I consider staying with them??

I already paid two cancellation fees for EK and I am not a bit angry about it!

Emirates changed their minds earlier this year when they introduced the lounge access policy in DXB for gold members.

This is a bigger beast, don't think they will change their minds on this one.

Will wait until everything becomes clearer before deciding what to do.

Best Regards
Flying Fireman

Your assumption may be flawed since details of the zones has not been published yet; need to to wait till the zone info is released to be able to tell

Dave

Thanks Dave & Eshaq 786

Yes I hope my assumption is wrong BUT....

1 Earning Zone FAQ1 says that the new earning zones will adopt the same structure as the reward zones. Clicking through the Reward Maps I found 15 Reward Zones.

2 Earning Zone FAQ2 says there will be 18 Earning Zones (That means 3 extra zones - I'm assuming)

3 Earning Zone FAQ3 then seems to suggest how. these 3 extra zones will be created:
The Americas will be subdivided
Australasia will be subdivided
Dubai will be a new stand alone hub

There is no suggestion of further subdivisions in Europe, Asia or Africa.

Of course this is all guesswork - but my hope is that someone from Emirates will actually read this thread and consider the impact that changes might have. If there are winners and losers in these changes. Then Emirates may lose loyal customers. Let's hope they're listening and get the detail right.

The end of the month is almost upon us and I have not seen even 1 update to the microsite. :td:

I have submitted a question for the FAQ and would like to have seen a regular update of answering some - any - questions that have been submitted.

I signed up to the notify me when a change occurs- but suprisinly nothing happenning there :td:

Its time to start shopping around for a status match offer

It would be the best time for Etihad to offer this.

The zones, miles earned, and miles needed for awards have been published.

http://www.skywards.com/zones.asp

I don't even know where to begin to understand it. So much for being "easier". It appears that economy saver fares earn 50% of miles. Upgrade awards from economy saver fares are more expensive than from economy flex awards.

One data point JFK-DXB:

currently:
miles earned in economy one-way=6834
miles for one-way upgrade from any class=45,000
r/t economy award, standard and peak=70,000/122,500
r/t business award, standard and peak=140,000/192,500
r/t first award, standard and peak=210,000/262,500

new changes:
miles earned in economy one-way, saver and flex=3000/6000
miles for one-way upgrade, from saver and from flex=57,500/45,000
r/t economy award, saver and flex=72,500/125,000
r/t business award, saver and flex=145,000/200,000
r/t first award, saver and flex=217,500/272,500


So, it looks like miles earned have decreased while miles needed to redeem have increased. Granted, not by too much. Unless you're purchasing economy saver tickets, then you're screwed. It will come down to what exactly qualifies as a saver ticket.

Some information now on Skywards, reference the new Zones for earning and redeeming miles in 2010.

Still not the full picture, looks like we will have to wait until January as to figure out how it will effect us individually.

Best regards
Flying Fireman

Sorry justforfun we must have been posting at the same time.

On first glance it looks like bad news as expected.

Even if all my flights were to be classed as earning at the flex level and as earning at the full rate for each leg I'm at least 10% down. When you throw in the effects of the changes in earning level when you travel between Zone X and Zone Y via Dubai and the likelihood that I'm on something they would class as a saver ticket at least 25% of the time then I'm way off.

Hmmm...food for thought

Quite disappointing indeed. The upgrade miles for the existing zones are the same, so this is more likely to affect redemption of tickets, as the requirements for those have increased. They could have just simply stopped offering the 10% bonus and put a surcharge on offline bookings, instead of increasing the required miles and then offering a 5% discount. Mileage awards at first glance seem to be based on less than the minimum mileage in a zone - they haven't even bothered taking the average so that not everyone suffers. Depending on how this miles accelerator thing works, it might actually be possible to reach the same spend/earn ratio as before, but tier qualification will certainly become harder (eg. if you're doing 2 round trips DXB-JFK, you now get 24k tier miles instead of 26k+). Add to this the fact that their silver tier hardly has any benefits, I think its likely they will lose some frequent economy class travelers to other airlines.

Edit: And so much for e-mail notifications - they have new FAQ's up - which I can't seem to be able to open. Anyone else having this problem? Can see all the questions, but none of the answers. A little bit ironic this is.

First glance I agree it looked bad - but a couple or my routes are increased miles ^-- now just need to hope they are not stingy on what is Flex and what is Saver!

I think I will give some business to QR next year and also maybe Skyteam and only go for th e50K requlaify and no more.

I had sent a question asking if their would be tier threshold bonuses-- meaning at 75K 100K 125K etc --as there woul dneed to be motication next year.-- but no answer that I can see-- :td:

It appears that some flights (eg LHR-SIN) will earn 6000 miles at the end trip (arrival in SIN) where the two segments would be 3000+3500 so a loss of 500 miles (excluding what loss of old earning). Euope West - NZ - does not lose anything (of new program).... :confused:

One of my new regular routes for 2010 DXB-DME goes form 2200 to 3000 in Y - and it will be in J so even better :-) Lets just hope the prices dont sky rocket now an dclient puts me on Aeroflot. :eek:

Quite disappointing indeed. The upgrade miles for the existing zones are the same, so this is more likely to affect redemption of tickets, as the requirements for those have increased. They could have just simply stopped offering the 10% bonus and put a surcharge on offline bookings, instead of increasing the required miles and then offering a 5% discount. Mileage awards at first glance seem to be based on less than the minimum mileage in a zone - they haven't even bothered taking the average so that not everyone suffers. Depending on how this miles accelerator thing works, it might actually be possible to reach the same spend/earn ratio as before, but tier qualification will certainly become harder (eg. if you're doing 2 round trips DXB-JFK, you now get 24k tier miles instead of 26k+). Add to this the fact that their silver tier hardly has any benefits, I think its likely they will lose some frequent economy class travelers to other airlines.

Edit: And so much for e-mail notifications - they have new FAQ's up - which I can't seem to be able to open. Anyone else having this problem? Can see all the questions, but none of the answers. A little bit ironic this is.

I have no problems seeing the answers to the Questions. (using Opera web browser).
Edit: I cannot open the answers to the socalled "new" questions in the FAQ list...

I must say that I am very, very dissapointed. For me, Skywards was the best program because it enabled me to get really good deals for value/money, and still accumulate lots of miles. These times seem to be over. I will fly Qantas next year.

Flying LHR - PER is now earning you 18060 miles return with no status (blue). In 2010, if flying on a saver fare, you will only earn 7500 points - return! Less than half of earlier........ Not impressed :( Even flexible fares will earn you less points than today.

Switching to QF because of their FF program? You must be joking. BA/QF has some of the worst rules out of any FF program for economy passengers. You will need 49,000 more points than through Skywards to claim a saver QF award from PER to LHR return if you can even find one available. There may be other reasons to switch carrier loyalty, but in this case using FF programs should not be on your list of criteria if you are thinking of going to QF.

Flying LHR - PER is now earning you 18060 miles return with no status (blue). In 2010, if flying on a saver fare, you will only earn 7500 points - return! Less than half of earlier........ Not impressed :( Even flexible fares will earn you less points than today.

+1

As a skywards gold who flies LHR - PER 4/5 times a year, the only thing that kept me with EK was loyalty as prices have become more competitive.

Definetly considering other carriers!

I must say that I am very, very dissapointed. For me, Skywards was the best program because it enabled me to get really good deals for value/money, and still accumulate lots of miles. These times seem to be over. I will fly Qantas next year.

Flying LHR - PER is now earning you 18060 miles return with no status (blue). In 2010, if flying on a saver fare, you will only earn 7500 points - return! Less than half of earlier........ Not impressed :( Even flexible fares will earn you less points than today.

As long as not buying special fares or those with must purchase by restrictions, the earning are 17% lower at 15,000 vs 18,000 but then the reward redemptions on the same route are 11% lower too, so the difference doesn't see quite that dire

currently needs 3.46 trips to earn an upgrade, though will now need 4
Currently needs 5.26 trips to earn an economey award and will now need 5.66

An effective 7% increase in award flight redemption costs would not be close to making QF a particularly great choice

To compare, on QF you would still earn around 18000 points in economy but the redemption costs to London are 112,000 vs 85,000 in economy and a one-way upgrade to business would cost 80,000 points rather than 60,000 ( plus could not be confirmed at booking time and be purely on a waitlist ).. would need about 6.22 trips to earn an economy award on QF which is still about 10% more expensive than EK

Dave

As long as not buying special fares or those with must purchase by restrictions, the earning are 17% lower at 15,000 vs 18,000 but then the reward redemptions on the same route are 11% lower too, so the difference doesn't see quite that dire

currently needs 3.46 trips to earn an upgrade, though will now need 4
Currently needs 5.26 trips to earn an economey award and will now need 5.66

An effective 7% increase in award flight redemption costs would not be close to making QF a particularly great choice

To compare, on QF you would still earn around 18000 points in economy but the redemption costs to London are 112,000 vs 85,000 in economy and a one-way upgrade to business would cost 80,000 points rather than 60,000 ( plus could not be confirmed at booking time and be purely on a waitlist ).. would need about 6.22 trips to earn an economy award on QF which is still about 10% more expensive than EK

Dave

thanks for the info,

I will have to fly QF/BA over Christmas, because they are the only one offering flights Europe-Australia via Japan, but thats another story. I saw that you don't earn much points for their code-share flights either...

So it remains to see how easy/difficult it will be to find the saver fares - this will be the most important aspect whether the Skywards program will continue to be attractive or not.

It would be very good if Qatar Airways start flying to PER, or Etihad. And can't wait for Virgin Atlantic flying nonstop LON-PER. How do these frequent flyer programs compare?

Switching to QF because of their FF program? You must be joking. BA/QF has some of the worst rules out of any FF program for economy passengers.


+1

Comparing Skywards to BAEC/QF is a bad joke, really. Skywards is - and largely remains - a lot more transparent, then said ....erparts.

On the other hand of course, BA/QF are part of one of the global alliances, to put it mildly. It's not as if EK are about to join Star Alliance on 01 JAN 2010. This is one of the reasons I really can't understand why they bother with all these changes... it's not as if they were forced to do this. Business is good, markets are picking up, the network is growing, EK are still going it alone in an otherwise alliance dominated international airline market, etc.

About possible status matches / program switches: QR really are not an option to me. They have let me down in the past. I know what they do and what they are capable of doing, and I know what they're like... as far as I am concerned QR are nothing more than a completely unreliable bunch of provincial slave drivers. QR is bad. Really!!

Which leaves me the question about what to do with EK / EY (and as we all know, and as it has only recently been officially confirmed, "Those who question the unity, should shut up!!"). Difficult decisions ahead of me in 2010, especially because CO has just joined *A, and because that other EK-partner JL is about to annihilate itself leaving the way open to that other Japanese airline NH (also a leading *A member) to cover their markets and to extend the NH network, which is all very great because SN (the hub airline in one of my home markets) also joined *A a couple of days ago, matching me back to Miles & More Senator, apparently based on my FM Shanghai Airlines flying pattern (if only they knew, I think they would have contacted me so much earlier!). Also, EY have direct flights to BRU, which can be handy to me, sometimes.

So, it's not like in this day and age, we don't have any choice and it's not as if there are no competing alliances or programs out there ...

On the other hand I really like the EK product (hard and soft), with Skywards just being the icing on the cake. I like the planes (although some of the older 777s can be really loud) and I like the IFE and I like the lounges (especially the dedicated out of port lounges) and I like the luggage allowance and I like the multiple op-ups and I (comparatively) like the EK check-in and I like the attitude of the young, dynamic, international crew (especially in Y) who usually make my trips just a little less boring (if you've ever been on one of the AF/KL/AY/UA/QF geriatric ambulances, I am sure you know what I am talking about). Plus, of course, so far (at least until today) I really like Skywards. So what is there to be complaining about??

I think what is happening here, is that EK is trying to wriggle some bargaining power / decision making power back out of our hands, back to them. As the changes are not that very dramatic, I am afraid that is also exactly the reason why these changes are so quite unfortunate, because (especially considering the sliding status-dates calender complication thing) now the program gets a lot more complicated (despite EK's claims of trying to make Skywards "easier for you"). This is a real pity because to me it's precisely the simplicity/transparency of the Skywards program that used to be one of its biggest comparative advantages.

Anyway, if I were to repeat my (2008 and 2009) EK flying pattern in 2010, I guess I stand to lose about 22-25k (status) miles, also losing out mightily on any double/triple miles bonuses of course, so... I guess, no I am pretty much sure, that I am one of those pax that will be really losing out here, but maybe that's the way the changes were designed to be ???

The strange thing is though, the upcoming changes hold no extra incentive for me to fly J instead of Y at all. E.g.: J redemption on my most frequent routes is going from 130 to 150k miles, whereas the J flex earning multiplier goes from 1.5 to 1.75, so basically it all evens out: more miles earned, more miles burnt (with the miles required for an upgrade remaining unchanged, as far as I can tell now).

I agree that it could have been worse though: there could have been a general devaluation a la AF/KL's (f)Lying Blue on 01APR09, who really ....ed up their (already not so great) FFP, and we all know what good that has brought to them (heavy losses of business, in all cabins). At least in this case, there won't be a complete devaluation of the outstanding mileage balances.

I agree that it could have been worse though: there could have been a complete program overhaul, making Skywards into a clone of BA's BAEC, which is overly complicated and overly exclusive (scaring most pax away, forcing BA to drop some of their program's most ridiculous/stringent restrictions, only a couple of months ago).

The thing about the upcoming Skywards changes that annoys me most though, is that we still have no indication / guarantee about which fares will be flex and which will be saver. I guess that's a lot of power to EK, and a lot less power to us.

It is annoying, not because I wouldn't be able to re-qualify to gold (at the same time we're still pretty much in the dark about EK Platinum), but because it makes all the other decisions (e.g. about my soon-to-expire Fitness First membership) so gddamn complicated, especially if I now want to compare Skywards to my other FFP.

Honestly (at least in a case like mine) I think EK are really being stupid. Why tamper with such a successful/winning formula, sacrificing one of the biggest assets of the Skywards program (its absolute transparency)?? Just to regain a bit of bargaining power?? I am sure there would have been other (and much better) ways for EK to achieve this (!!).

To me, as a pax, transparency has a lot of value. I REALLY VALUE TRANSPARENCY AND SIMPLICITY. I am not sure though these show up on EK's balance sheet, but they certainly show up on mine!! And I am sure they are an important factor in my spending pattern, especially when buying airline tkts. In this regard, I am afraid that the upcoming Skywards changes will destroy quite a lot of value, from an (IMHO at least) otherwise very high value-for-money product/service.

I think that's a shame really.

But then again, it could have been a lot worse.

(AF) Vraiment!! (KL) Echt waar!! (BA/QF) Really!!

.

So what is happening to the upgrade availability ??

Now that they've published the earning/redemption charts, have they re-opened the necessary booking classes for pax to easily upgrade any (all) of their bookings ??

Also, will it still be possible to upgrade on a sector basis, instead of on a zone-to-zone basis ?? (it's not really clear from the new info).

.

+1

On the other hand of course, BA/QF are part of one of the global alliances, to put it mildly. It's not as if EK are about to join Star Alliance on 01 JAN 2010. This is one of the reasons I really can't understand why they bother with all these changes... it's not as if they were forced to do this. Business is good, markets are picking up, the network is growing, EK are still going it alone in an otherwise alliance dominated international airline market, etc.

.

True. What I am thinking, is that you have to balance the vlaue of the frequent flier program with the value of network power and number of route options. With Emirates you almost always have to fly via Dubai, whereas QF/BA might give you many different options (for example, between Europe and Australia, one can have a stop over in SIN, HKG, JNB, NRT, ++). Emirates strength has been a leisure traveller only like me to gain silver status only from travelling intercontinental twice a year. Which other airline could offer you that?! Stupid of them now if the saver fares will be hard to get.

True. What I am thinking, is that you have to balance the vlaue of the frequent flier program with the value of network power and number of route options. With Emirates you almost always have to fly via Dubai, whereas QF/BA might give you many different options (for example, between Europe and Australia, one can have a stop over in SIN, HKG, JNB, NRT, ++). Emirates strength has been a leisure traveller only like me to gain silver status only from travelling intercontinental twice a year. Which other airline could offer you that?! Stupid of them now if the saver fares will be hard to get.

Conversely though, Emirates does give you a lot more places you can fly to with 1 stop in Europe and without having to traverse Europe twice due to having to fly to LHR or FRA

Dave

Emirates strength has been a leisure traveller only like me to gain silver status only from travelling intercontinental twice a year. Which other airline could offer you that?!

Fly *A, and credit to Asiana. 40k miles in 2 years, will give you Star Gold, and lounge access for up to 48+1 months. Only 20k miles for Star Silver.

I don't think any other program gives status for less, unless you count Lifetime status, via a credit card, etc.

The new miles tables appear ok to me. I was afraid they would change it too much; to my surprise (and luck) I will be earning more miles (few hundreds more). Also the usual routes I upgrade on remained the same.

However I noticed that they increased the mileage required for reward trips by 10%. And with the future 5% discount for online reward bookings, that works out to be about a 4.5% increase (1.1*0.95) over current base rates, or 16% increase over the current discounted rates. Not nice.

I too am wondering if in the new system I will still be able to upgrade separate sectors

So here goes a devaluation of miles in excess of 10%. Let's see how the miles accelerator program (with a cap of 8000 per year) will work.

.... Let's see how the miles accelerator program (with a cap of 8000 per year) will work.

Where have you seen this-- I just say it says wup to on our year round offers-- thought that that may be per route the max any one route will give is 8K extra?

the new zones rules will hurt my tier mileage accumulation:

Expiring earning: dxb-icn in Y - 4,191 tier miles each way
New earning: dxb-icn in flex fare Y - 3,500 tier miles each way

roughly 16% less... perhaps EK will make this up with reduced fares starting 1 Jan? -_-

Upgrade rewards remain the same at 32,500 each way.

bummer.

Duh.. somebody decrypt this for me please..

From the new earnings reward chart section.. "Mileage stated is for the most direct routing between zones" I am trying to understand this.

Suppose I wish to redeem miles for a flight from MAA to SIN return in Y, how much miles I needed? The chart seem to suggest 27500 miles for saver and 47500 for flex awards.

The most direct routing with EK is MAA-DXB-SIN. Does this mean it is indeed only 27500 miles? OR since there are no direct flights, I have to redeem for two flight rewards (MAA-DXB and DXB-SIN).

Where have you seen this-- I just say it says wup to on our year round offers-- thought that that may be per route the max any one route will give is 8K extra?

Perhaps I misread it as an annual cap
You can also earn up to 8,000 additional Skywards Miles on eligible flights with our year-round Miles Accelerator.

Let's hope that means up to 8k miles per route.

sigh.. from dxb-cai-dxb nothing in I available in jan/feb.

Will existing miles and status be kept the same as of Jan 1st?

Edit:

Yes, validity of your membership card and benefits doesn't change:

- If you already hold a membership card with validity up to 28 February 2010 you can enjoy all your benefits until that date.

- If you already hold a membership card with validity up to 28 February 2011 you can enjoy all your benefits until that date.

- If your review date falls on 31 December 2009 and you exceed the required 25,000 tier miles for Silver - or 50,000 tier miles for Gold - your status will be renewed and we will be delivering you a new card valid through to 28 February 2011.

+1

To me, as a pax, transparency has a lot of value. I REALLY VALUE TRANSPARENCY AND SIMPLICITY. I am not sure though these show up on EK's balance sheet, but they certainly show up on mine!! And I am sure they are an important factor in my spending pattern, especially when buying airline tkts. In this regard, I am afraid that the upcoming Skywards changes will destroy quite a lot of value, from an (IMHO at least) otherwise very high value-for-money product/service.

I think that's a shame really.

.

+1

This is exactly the point I was making earlier. The underlying "business/strategic" objectives of this change could have been accomplished much more easily without complicating things so much (flex fares, award zones etc, and ESPECIALLY the drip drip nature of the news flow).

Like you, I like the EK product (the IFE is truly exceptional), but keeping EK Gold (which I normally do with 2 return J class trips to India from the US a year) is becoming increasingly less worth it given that EK status has no benefits whatsoever on my other routes (intra US, US to Europe, and US to East Asia).

Why spoil a winning formula? Maybe Elite status was too easy to get and needed to get more exclusive - but that's easily fixed by moving up qualification thresholds or reducing Silver benefits and creating a Platinum tier at 100K tier miles (or 100K tier miles on J/F only - like SQ PPS used to be - which may have seriously got me to consider going for EK Platinum every other year since LH SEN lasts for 2 years).

I agree fully that the move will destroy value for EK. Hey, but it's their airline, and customers have choices. *A is a juggernaut that's hard to beat and the addition of CO just made it more so. EK NEEDS a more competitive FFP to make up for it's lack of alliances, but looks like they are going the other way. I may still travel EK once I've met my status retention targets on *A for a year, but it's more likely to be an afterthought than by design.

+1

This is exactly the point I was making earlier. The underlying "business/strategic" objectives of this change could have been accomplished much more easily without complicating things so much (flex fares, award zones etc, and ESPECIALLY the drip drip nature of the news flow).

Like you, I like the EK product (the IFE is truly exceptional), but keeping EK Gold (which I normally do with 2 return J class trips to India from the US a year) is becoming increasingly less worth it given that EK status has no benefits whatsoever on my other routes (intra US, US to Europe, and US to East Asia).

Why spoil a winning formula? Maybe Elite status was too easy to get and needed to get more exclusive - but that's easily fixed by moving up qualification thresholds or reducing Silver benefits and creating a Platinum tier at 100K tier miles (or 100K tier miles on J/F only - like SQ PPS used to be - which may have seriously got me to consider going for EK Platinum every other year since LH SEN lasts for 2 years).

I agree fully that the move will destroy value for EK. Hey, but it's their airline, and customers have choices. *A is a juggernaut that's hard to beat and the addition of CO just made it more so. EK NEEDS a more competitive FFP to make up for it's lack of alliances, but looks like they are going the other way. I may still travel EK once I've met my status retention targets on *A for a year, but it's more likely to be an afterthought than by design.

I wonder how they'd go about doing that.

Flying to anywhere in the Middle East earns 1000 miles, while flying to South Asia (North) earns 1100 miles, even though it's 3 times the distance.

Duh.. somebody decrypt this for me please..

From the new earnings reward chart section.. "Mileage stated is for the most direct routing between zones" I am trying to understand this.

Suppose I wish to redeem miles for a flight from MAA to SIN return in Y, how much miles I needed? The chart seem to suggest 27500 miles for saver and 47500 for flex awards.

The most direct routing with EK is MAA-DXB-SIN. Does this mean it is indeed only 27500 miles? OR since there are no direct flights, I have to redeem for two flight rewards (MAA-DXB and DXB-SIN).

Anyone?

For those who still want to fly Emirates (on the cheaper fares), are you better off crediting to *A member, e.g. UA Mileage Plus (http://www.united.com/page/article/0,,2152,00.html) or CO OnePass (http://www.continental.com/CMS/en-US/marketing/custcomm/promotions/Pages/AirlinePartnerDetails.aspx?ItemId=70)? Or perhaps JAL Mileage Bank (https://www.jal.co.jp/en/jalmile/flight/ek.html) (which only seem to credit Full Y) ?

Question:

Lets say I earned 20k miles from April-December 2009, and in April 2010 I'll have some more flights upcoming for another 10k miles. Will I become Skywards silver after April 2010 given the new 13-month rule?

Just seen the award charts....thumbing through it while at a staff party. Yeah, shocking. 2.5 less the awards from Aust-Europe for Y and 1.5 for J. I'll be EK Gold for next year and 2011 with my 2010 pre-bookings (thankfully paid for by work) but other than that........goodbye EK...you got greedy.

cw

For those who still want to fly Emirates (on the cheaper fares), are you better off crediting to *A member, e.g. UA Mileage Plus (http://www.united.com/page/article/0,,2152,00.html) or CO OnePass (http://www.continental.com/CMS/en-US/marketing/custcomm/promotions/Pages/AirlinePartnerDetails.aspx?ItemId=70)? Or perhaps JAL Mileage Bank (https://www.jal.co.jp/en/jalmile/flight/ek.html) (which only seem to credit Full Y) ?

I expect UA and CO will change the percentages for certain fare classes in the new year. We have to wait and see. Clearly, if you are not going to get the tier you want anyway or any other bonus, if someone else will give you 'full RDM', then it is likely worth it.

Rasheed

Unfortunately the changes are bad news for UK flyers
For example:-

A round trip from Birmingham to Manila
used to earn 15,538 Skywards miles
now it earns only 12,000 Skywards miles
That's quite a devaluation
Also the tickets aren't exactly cheap as it's a long distance

Worse though is the devaluation in the tier miles
Before I could earn gold with 4 long haul trips a year
Now it will need 5 trips

Not good for silvers either
Now need 3 flights before 2

For me as a working guy - paying from my own pocket
It's just too much
I'm afraid I'll have to leave Skywards
Unless I can think of a way round this

Shame - I've really enjoyed Emirates
since my first flight with them in 1992
& I've always been happy till now

In 2010 you will earn 6000 Skywards miles from UK -> Far East
However if it was 6250 Skywards miles
to reflect the extra distance to UK I would stay
Sadly frequent flyers at the far end of any zone will lose out

Bad idea Skywards

My previous post (see above) explained the problem for UK flyers
UK flyers are also hit by their devalued pound
However their counterparts in West Europe have a strong Euro

I think there is a solution for Skywards

Asia has 7 zones
Australasia has 3 zones
America has 3 zones
Africa has 3 zones

But Europe only has 2 zones

The solution would be to create a 3rd zone in Europe
This should include UK and maybe others too
The earning miles to Dubai could be just 3250
still less than they currently get
but a better reflection for the extra distance
and enough to keep loyal FFs

What do you think Skywards UK?

Whilst I agree with most of Martin's view for those of us based in the UK, I do not agree with his comment re fares.Unfortunately the changes are bad news for UK flyers


A round trip from Birmingham to Manila
was 15,538
now 12,000
That's quite a devaluation
The tickets aren't exactly cheap as it's a long distance



I have achieved Silver status this year through an F ticket to Bangkok and a Y ticket to Dubai. Both trips were much cheaper compared to the competitors. I am now considering doing a mileage run to Jakarta in January for 506 pounds which will get me enough miles to achieve gold. QR to Jakarta return is way over 600 pounds with an enforced layover of one day on Doha. I think EK's fares are very competitive and like Martin, as the money is coming out of my pocket, I have to find the best deals around. I agree with his and other's views on the lack of transparency and inequalities of the revamped Skywards. For the moment however I shall stick with EK and review later next year.;)

Sorry Fish55

The figures I quoted refer to the Skywards miles you will earn for the flights.
Not the cost of the ticket in pounds. Sorry for not making that clear.

Flights to Manila are often quite a lot more than equivalent EK flights to Bangkok or Jakarta. But then it is further. And that is the problem with zones. Flyers to destinations furthest away from Dubai in the Zone system will often lose out. That is the disadvantage of the zone system imho. In that regard the old system was a fairer one and better reflected what you paid for a ticket. I agree that Jakarta is usually competitively priced. But you can usually find cheaper tickets to Bangkok on other airlines. I've never minded paying extra because I like Emirates and Skywards was so good.

Tickets you buy from UK to Bangkok or Jakarta will earn considerably fewer Skywards miles when you buy in 2010 compared to now.

Personally I'm not so worried about earning fewer miles. But it becomes a problem when you also earn fewer tier miles. It means you will not reach the thresholds for Silver or Gold as you would this year.

You (Fish55) also seem to fly regularly from UK to what Skywards call the Far East zone.
This year two economy tickets will earn you sufficient miles to gain Silver.
Next year you will need three economy tickets

This year four economy tickets will earn you Gold status
Next year you will need to buy five economy tickets to secure Gold

Sorry for not explaining that clearly before.

You (Fish55) also seem to fly regularly from UK to what Skywards call the Far East zone.
This year two economy tickets will earn you sufficient miles to gain Silver.
Next year you will need three economy tickets

This year four economy tickets will earn you Gold status
Next year you will need to buy five economy tickets to secure Gold


I think this shows the exact reason why EK is doing this... it was too cheap to gain status.-and they are about making money. - They have increased the J and F bonuses to make it easier for J and F fliers (paying the big money) to get the status.

I was unsure about the changes but I do like it now as seeing clearly now that this will reduce the number of Golds and make it more exclusive and maybe more beneifts to follow in years to come.

For those in the UK remember that Skywards is still better tham the 25% of miles and (recently) few tier points on BA that would make any status impossible in 3, 4 or 5 or more (discounted) economy trips....anywhere!

I was unsure about the changes but I do like it now as seeing clearly now that this will reduce the number of Golds and make it more exclusive and maybe more beneifts to follow in years to come.


Agreed! But, why complicate life with this elaborate song and dance. Why not simply move the qualification thresholds to 30/60 and bring in the higher class of service bonuses? Easy to explain and MUCH easier to do since EK is not part of any global alliances where elite status needs to be harmonized. Same result - fewer Golds! But there would be none of this uncertainty while planning travel for next year. This transition and the drip drip of information have NOT been handled well.

Agreed! But, why complicate life with this elaborate song and dance. Why not simply move the qualification thresholds to 30/60 and bring in the higher class of service bonuses? Easy to explain and MUCH easier to do since EK is not part of any global alliances where elite status needs to be harmonized. Same result - fewer Golds! But there would be none of this uncertainty while planning travel for next year. This transition and the drip drip of information have NOT been handled well.


+1

1. Who are they gonna UPG?
2. Who will fill the seats of the DXB T3 lounge?
3. Who will act like they own the airline from seat 46D?

I am off to SYD two times in the next three weeks with mates as I can take advantage of the EK Lounge + mate with Gold. With return fares from AKL priced at NZ$200 + tax I can't imagine how EK makes money of us after we've downed a few wines and (invariably) been upgraded. I've been Gold for 2.5 years. I will be able to retain it for another 2.5 years so am mid-flight it would seem (as I won't retain with Y fares going forward). Now that I've looked at the program changes, the only thing that sticks out is that cheap Y fares no longer give numerous miles. And to be honest, nor should they. J/F PAX will notice no changes to Skywards. For the likes of me, I don't really add too much to EK's bottom line. Last month I took 11 friends to the Melbourne Cup; at check in 6 of us were upgraded AKL-MEL-AKL. We paid NZ$400 for the return flight incl taxes. This isn't commercially smart in the long term.

Time to delete my original post. EK is still good, perhaps better?

cw

Agreed! But, why complicate life with this elaborate song and dance. Why not simply move the qualification thresholds to 30/60 and bring in the higher class of service bonuses? Easy to explain and MUCH easier to do since EK is not part of any global alliances where elite status needs to be harmonized. Same result - fewer Golds! But there would be none of this uncertainty while planning travel for next year. This transition and the drip drip of information have NOT been handled well.

I disagree. Why have an arbitrary Jan-Dec earning period . The new scheme allows 13 month travel be counted when earning a status ; whether or not that crosses a calendar boundary is now irrelevent. That seems to be a beneficial change

Dave