SAS EuroBonus - News from Estonian Air

After making big promises and already adding the new planes to the schedule it is allowed to doubt that Estonian Air will get any planes from Candair. The management from OV has also given false statements to the media about the whole story.
The truth is that OV is out of money and their credit rating is so bad that there won't be any new planes before 2011.
According to my information (from some members of the Estonian Government) the deal with Candair, OV and the leasing company was put on hold until OV can proof some financial backup (which won't happen if the
Estonian Prime Minister is still refusing to sell the shares to SAS).

Does that mean that there is at least 1 CRJ-900 painted in OVs livery stored in Canada? This was seen flying in mid-August

I can imagine this is true but I wonder why SAS would want to buy shares when in reality they want to sell their shares if they could find someone willing to buy them.

Does that mean that there is at least 1 CRJ-900 painted in OVs livery stored in Canada? This was seen flying in mid-August

According to airfleets.net there's 2 on order and have registrations.

But SAS announced in February or smth. that they want to sell OV. Have they quietly returned to the wish to buy?

Cash position, credit rating and debts are different issues, but I recall OV saying they are almost debt-free in the end of summer. Of course, buying new planes with a loan demands much more credibility.

According to the recent news SAS is selling its shares in Estonian Air and not buying.

The agreement on new aircraft acquisition was signed before the worldwide finacial crises, but the delivery time did fall into a period where the conditions for such big agreements are very much different.
The aircraft will come and Estonian Air is continuing to work on the agreement's financial details.
That is the reason why the aircraft are not in Estonia yet.

One of the likely buyers is BT in a joint venture with Lithuanian and Latvian Governments. Lithuanians are looking for someone to fill the gap after FlyLAL bancruptcy, and idea of one airline for all Baltic states is more or less popular among politicians.
The only party who is strongy objecting this... is Estonian Air! I'm not sure if anyone else apart from OV employees will miss OV too much.....

There is nothing new about the idea of the joint aviation company, it has been up for several years ago and then buried again.
The question is what will it change from now on? Does it thrill to follow Lithuanian scenario - to fly from Riga airport instead of having direct flights? Economically it does make sence to form such a company only, if Estonians and Lithuanians will fly through Riga, not directly.

Ilona, great to see Estonian Air press girl is represented here, you could also mention it in your profile, maybe? :)

Yes, I am looking how to do this - to add it into my profile, Just joined you today!:)

Dear Ilona, it is indeed great to see you here!

You are absolutely right that pan-baltic airline would concentrate around feeding pax to Riga hub, however if all 3 Governments will be the owners they can say their word about maintaining some direct flights out of TLL and VNO.

I'm flying OV in average a couple of times per week, but only to CPH/ARN/VNO, sometimes OSL. Where else I can fly given the frequency of OV service to other destinations? It might be suitable for leasure travellers if there is just 1-2 flights per week, but for most of us here who flying every week and even several times per week, anything less than daily service is usually out of question, we need to see our families and also be at office too sometimes. That's why I'm saying departure of OV would not change things dramatically.

I'm flying OV in average a couple of times per week, but only to CPH/ARN/VNO, sometimes OSL. Where else I can fly given the frequency of OV service to other destinations?

I fully agree with you. OV used to fly 9x weekly to LGW, now it's only 2x weekly. The last 2 times I flew to London, my only option on the days I had to fly there was BT via RIX. If OV can't manage to offer a daily service to the largest city (by metro area definition) in Europe (London), then I don't have much hope that OV can offer daily services to any other major cities also.

So at that point, OV might as well just merge into BT and be done with it. I'm sure there are a number of efficiencies to be gained by removing many redundant functions.

I fully agree with you. OV used to fly 9x weekly to LGW, now it's only 2x weekly.

I used to fly OV to LGW quite often in late 90s and early 00s, they were 6x weekly (except Saturdays), 2+3 generous layout and a choice(!) of hot meals in business class, that were the times! ^
Also I remember AirBaltic was nothing more but just a RIX-ARN/CPH shuttle at that time. We can see how that changed through the years :(
What also makes the overall impression is interior appearance, BT has the same old 737s but they at least invested to refurbuish interior and install a new generation seats (most of airplanes), those thin seats making more leg room and convertable seats in C providing a reasonable comfort, while OV degraded their C to Y+ and seat covers are weared to 3rd world country standard.
I used to be proud of OV being my home country flag carrier some 10 years ago but now it is in so sad state that I wouldn't mind someone else to take the things over.

Welcome Ilona! If I were You, I would insert into the location line "Estonian Air".

I'm flying OV in average a couple of times per week, but only to CPH/ARN/VNO, sometimes OSL.
Would You prefer even these flights to go via RIX, which is the case in VNO? It also limits the access to Scandinavian hubs that means choices. Baltic countries are actually much more different than Scandinavian ones in their views, history, culture. Maybe in 50 years time we understand it is not always wise to shoot another shot :p, but for now there ain't many political agreements.

Would You prefer even these flights to go via RIX, which is the case in VNO?

BT still have VNO-CPH twice daily, VNO-ARN twice daily by JZ, VNO-TLL freq varies but also direct, so it is not much different. There is no proof that BT would axe all direct routes, this is simply the only argument OV still have.

To make sure, I only present personal views. No hidden agenda. Stopping VNO-ARN in spring, when VNO was almost competition free, gave me these severe doubts about the good intentions. Later they have replied to lithuanians that there is not enough demand to other routes, only promoting RIX options.

Hi!


I'm flying OV in average a couple of times per week, but only to CPH/ARN/VNO, sometimes OSL. Where else I can fly given the frequency of OV service to other destinations? It might be suitable for leasure travellers if there is just 1-2 flights per week, but for most of us here who flying every week and even several times per week, anything less than daily service is usually out of question, we need to see our families and also be at office too sometimes. That's why I'm saying departure of OV would not change things dramatically.

One of the reasons for OV to change the current fleet (Boeings) with new aircraft (CRJ) is to offer better frequencies.

I think this new airline would be screwed up very fast because of conflicts and different attitudes from different Baltic countries. For example loose monetary attitude by Latvian govt vs conservative Estonian govt.
If you want to see the future of govt's-owned airline - look at SAS as an example, but imagine it ten times worse.
I personally also think Air Baltic is abankruptcy waiting to happen - no way they're gonna report profit for this year with current pricing and load factor unless they cook their books.



You are absolutely right that pan-baltic airline would concentrate around feeding pax to Riga hub, however if all 3 Governments will be the owners they can say their word about maintaining some direct flights out of TLL and VNO.

I personally also think Air Baltic is abankruptcy waiting to happen - no way they're gonna report profit for this year with current pricing and load factor unless they cook their books.

How many airlines in the world are actually going to post profit this year? How many years out of last 15 OV posted any profit? I believe BT deserves the chance :)

I am surprised to read an "official statment" from the OV press-girl here. Thank's for that. But Ilona, neither are you denying the financial trouble of Estonian Air nor are you saying anything when the new planes will come. I received an Email from Martin, your CR-Manager, already in April, telling me that the first plane just finished the last test flight and will be delivered within the next weeks (or maybe he wanted to say within the next years). You also said you want to increase the frequenzies on the few popular routes you have and add new destinations. How are you going to do that? I thought the new planes will replace the old 737's step by step so in the end there won't be any additional planes at all. Sorry for beeing so critical about Estonian Air but nobody can deny the missmanagement that took place within the last years. Air Baltic started with less planes, less passengers and less destinations and they also managed to grow so please do not blame the crisis for what is happening at the moment, the mistakes were made way before people in Estonia knew how to write the word "crisis".

One of the reasons for OV to change the current fleet (Boeings) with new aircraft (CRJ) is to offer better frequencies.

This seems very reasonable to me -- maybe there is enough demand to offer more frequencies with a smaller plane. (In other words, what BT does already.)

It's just a pity that Estonian Air didn't realize this back in 2003, when the company seemed very happy to be getting rid of its smaller planes (Fokker 50) in favor of an all-Boeing fleet:
http://www.estonian-air.ee/21435

It is so sad to see Estonian air in this situation. The truth is that even if the new plane will arrive (one or three planes Ilona?) it will replace the 737s.
So it is really difficult to think to more frequencies and instead it is more easy to think to less seats available.
As the situation is i think OV should have to concentrate to serve also other hubs with daily flights in the middle of the day :FRA, MUC, AMS.

Math is pretty easy: one aircraft can do an average of 3 round trips a day. The service for business travellers means 2x daily to anywhere less than 2 hours flight, and 1 daily to over 2 hrs destination. How many destinations you can really serve with 3 aircraft (no counting OV regional)? 1 is attached to 3x CPH, another one can do 2x ARN and 1x SVO, third one 2x OSL and 1x FRA (or AMS or LGW). So with 3 aircraft you can serve as much as 5 destinations. Or you can do it OV way - you put 1 or 2 frequency per week and declaring it as destination :mad:

hello again!

Just few comments on Mr. Niels thoughts...Estonian Air is in the same situation as majority of the airlines (not talking of those which get direct or indirect massive financial support from government) and we do not deny it is a challenging time. BUT this is not the reason why the aircraft is not in Estonia yet.
In spite of this Estonian Air is operating today 100% and will do it also tomorrow.
According to the preliminary plan, yes, the aircraft had to arrive one after one starting from this spring (altogether 3 aircraft). But the production and negotiations on delivery conditions have been taking longer time and this is not smth that our company can influence very much.
We are still working on this project and we are not in a hurry to bring them home as we have needed fleet to serve the winter flight schedule :)
I am quite confident and sure you will soon hear some good news from us!

Few words. Unfortunately all my good experiences with OV were before 2005, after that it is has been more of inconvenience than something good.
1) the seats - frankly, they look currently more like prehistoric, and the rowspace on 733 is just unbearable unless it is an exit row. as your planes are not that full anyway, I would suggest to take few rows away and make a bit more comfy feeling, to compensate the premium that people have to pay to fly OV. And I would reintroduce the lovely leather-seats for 1st 4 rows there used to be before.
2) catering - it is just pathetic! I am missing the lovely economy class snacks there used to be in the past. This summer I flew CPH-TLL in C: what did I get? two tiny pieces of somekind of Indian spicy chicken with leave of salad, to call it a premium class is just hilarious and by any means not comparable for example even with pre-2005 economy class food!

How do you expect to have highpaying customers, when it is inconvenient to sit onboard, and catering is below any quality?

And best so far has been from luggage: OV broke my suitcase in the beginning of the trip on arrival in Oslo, I was to travel 2 weeks before returning back to Tallinn. At Oslo they said (I even called Tallinn) that if I want to get any solution, I have to go with my suitcase to Tallinn!

Pearl from the call centre: I tried to book the ticket for OV, and the lady in OV call centre said: "Sorry, we are so busy here so that we are not interested in making the booking for you, but if you really want to fly with us, you should contact a travel agency!" - as if you seem to have too many customers..?

I think it would be great if OV would transform their quality of service to the level of LH and provide good feedertraffic for LH and would become like EN of Italy for instance.

And... currently the flight times TAY-ARN-TAY are somehow inconvenient as the connecting times for onwards trips require overnight in ARN often. Why not to make it like BT - TAY-ARN in the morning, then ARN-TLL-ARN and ARN-TAY in the evening, with overnighting in TAY? This would match better with transfer options and I think smaller plane for mid-day ARN-TLL-ARN is also more appropriate as I think then it is less demand and B737 is not needed.

Few words. Unfortunately all my good experiences with OV were before 2005, after that it is has been more of inconvenience than something good.
1) the seats - frankly, they look currently more like prehistoric, and the rowspace on 733 is just unbearable unless it is an exit row. as your planes are not that full anyway, I would suggest to take few rows away and make a bit more comfy feeling, to compensate the premium that people have to pay to fly OV. And I would reintroduce the lovely leather-seats for 1st 4 rows there used to be before.
2) catering - it is just pathetic! I am missing the lovely economy class snacks there used to be in the past. This summer I flew CPH-TLL in C: what did I get? two tiny pieces of somekind of Indian spicy chicken with leave of salad, to call it a premium class is just hilarious and by any means not comparable for example even with pre-2005 economy class food!


Those of us who have to fly OV often have given up on these nice things a while ago (though I agree with your point). We are now willing to settle for just something as simple as more frequencies to important destinations.

Here's the current flight plan:
http://www.estonian-air.ee/lennuplaan

The frequencies to CPH and ARN are designed well for connections and travel to those destinations. All the other destinations are not frequent enough for business travelers.

I'm still not sure why they can't offer a daily service to LGW like they did a few years before. Easyjet seems able to do it.

I actually want OV to succeed (and I appreciate that Ilona joins a forum where most people are critical), but to be honest, I don't see this happening. It just shows how important scale is in the airline business. OV is just too small to survive. This is not a fault of OV, but rather because Estonia itself is small. It's why we are forced to pay higher prices for clothes, electronics, etc in Estonia compared to places like Germany and the UK.

My prediction is we'll see either a merger with BT, or OV will somehow dissolve into SK. There will be frequent flights to major hubs (either RIX or ARN/CPH as now), and a few direct flights to major destinations, like VNO, SVO, LGW.

Actually, for the most part this seems to be how OV operates now, but there's too much overhead in running an airline with small scale.

I actually want OV to succeed (and I appreciate that Ilona joins a forum where most people are critical), but to be honest, I don't see this happening. It just shows how important scale is in the airline business. OV is just too small to survive.

..Especially if they don't really know what they want! One year they start to do lots of charters, other year saying "we concentrating on scheduled business", one year they need bigger aircraft, other year smaller etc.

If you take a look at european operators and see how many destinations and how many aircraft they have, you will surprisingly find out that destination/aircraft ratio of OV is several times higher than other airlines. And the price for it is frequency.

Estonian Air is in the same situation as majority of the airlines (not talking of those which get direct or indirect massive financial support from government)

I honestly believe it is not very good and acceptable practice to point the finger to your rivals. Especially when OV major shareholder is kept afloat by scandinavian government cash injections. Wasn't OV received cash from SAS (=government money) in Dec08/Jan09 and then cash from Estonian Government in Feb09 to avoid bunkruptcy?

Also I'm wondering why Estonian Air Annual report 2008 is available at Estonian Business Register, but not on OV website?

To became the baltic Air Dolomiti should have to be the target for OV.
And that could be possible with the new CRJ product.
I think OV should have to concentrate to connect well the major hubs.
3 daily to CPH (now the plane is stopping 6 hours per day in CPH and using it in a better way could be possible to add 1 ARN rotation)
2 daily to ARN, 1 daily OSL (evening), 1 daily FRA(morning), 1 daily AMS(morning), 1 daily SVO(evening), and if possible 1 daily BRU(evening).
LON would be good only if the plane lands at LHR(good connections to America), but i don't think the are slots available. Flight would be also too long.
In this way Tallin would be well connected with the whole Europe and also the whole World.

Dear Ilona, could you advise if OV is considering to add Friday evening flight on TLL-VNO route after BT announced they will withdraw all flights TLL-VNO from next week? Friday evening is very popular flight with Estonians and Lithuanians commuting back home...

The Economist is writing that the Chinese are intrested in buying Estonian Air.
That really would be something.


Maybe China. It has plenty of reasons to develop a presence in eastern Europe, ranging from trade to geopolitics. It has expressed interest in buying Estonian Air (currently up for sale by SAS, its owner). That would give China a “domestic” European Union airline and access to a low-cost airport.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14901315

What could an "access to a low-cost airport" mean? :confused: