Flying Blue (Air France & KLM) - I would welcome your views...

I need to book two KL long haul F tickets for wife and self using FB points. I appreciate that taxes can vary dependant upon departure and arrival points, but...with the UK introducing even higher taxes for Business/First travel, would we be best booking travel from AMS instead of LHR, and just buying a couple of cheap tickets to get over to AMS ? What is the thinking nowadays ? Thanks guys.

First one being that KLM does not have F and that you need to fly AF for that.
That said, I believe that Flying Blue population on FT think that the current F-awards are a real waste of points.

Gajan

Do dummy bookings for each method and compare the cost. As an example, I just tried BHX-AMS-MEX, then AMS-MEX (both on promos, both in business). The first costs 388Euros in taxes, and the second costs 235Euros in taxes. The saving is around 150Euros. The cost of an economy return from BHX-AMS with KLM is around 110 Euros. From LON-AMS you may well get cheaper fares with other carriers. For a saving of 40Euros I just could not be bothered with the hassle, but it is personal choice,and it you get really cheap fares from LON-AMS, you might think it worthwhile for two.

Do dummy bookings for each method and compare the cost. As an example, I just tried BHX-AMS-MEX, then AMS-MEX (both on promos, both in business). The first costs 388Euros in taxes, and the second costs 235Euros in taxes. The saving is around 150Euros. The cost of an economy return from BHX-AMS with KLM is around 110 Euros. From LON-AMS you may well get cheaper fares with other carriers. For a saving of 40Euros I just could not be bothered with the hassle, but it is personal choice,and it you get really cheap fares from LON-AMS, you might think it worthwhile for two.

Bear in mind that separate tickets have a 'cost' too. If you did buy, say, a cheap LON-AMS with Easyjet or bmi, if your plane is late and you miss your connection, there is absolutely no guarantee that KLM will be willing to rebook you on a later flight. As a result, as suggested by Brian, I wouldn't bother with the hassle if the saving is minimal, and all the more so as you would need to plan a significant transfer time (more so than on a through ticket) because of what I have just mentioned. I think a saving of about €100 return would be my threshold more or less, and that is, of course, assuming that like me you don't find an added value in flying ES rather than economy on the short hop across the Northern sea...

First one being that KLM does not have F and that you need to fly AF for that.
That said, I believe that Flying Blue population on FT think that the current F-awards are a real waste of points.

Gajan

Why would that be ? Are you saying that numerous shorthauls are better 'value' than a long haul ? (Or reading again...you mean First are a waste...not Business ?)

Bear in mind that separate tickets have a 'cost' too. If you did buy, say, a cheap LON-AMS with Easyjet or bmi, if your plane is late and you miss your connection, there is absolutely no guarantee that KLM will be willing to rebook you on a later flight. As a result, as suggested by Brian, I wouldn't bother with the hassle if the saving is minimal, and all the more so as you would need to plan a significant transfer time (more so than on a through ticket) because of what I have just mentioned. I think a saving of about €100 return would be my threshold more or less, and that is, of course, assuming that like me you don't find an added value in flying ES rather than economy on the short hop across the Northern sea...

Thanks for that...I've just done a dummy Mexico booking...ex AMS saves over Euro400 and that's before the significant APD rises kick in out of the UK in November !

Why would that be ? Are you saying that numerous shorthauls are better 'value' than a long haul ? (Or reading again...you mean First are a waste...not Business ?)

Example:
CDG-SXM:
Economy Classic Award: 60K
Business Classic Award: 120K
First Flex Award: 300K (there is no longer a Classic Award for First).

So using miles for First is a waste. Shorthaul often is a waste too, longhaul business is the best-value-option.

Why would that be ? Are you saying that numerous shorthauls are better 'value' than a long haul ? (Or reading again...you mean First are a waste...not Business ?)

I need to book two KL long haul F tickets

Correct, first is a waste of points, long-haul business is not.

Example:
CDG-SXM:
Economy Classic Award: 60K
Business Classic Award: 120K
First Flex Award: 300K (there is no longer a Classic Award for First).

Is there any First to SXM?

Is there any First to SXM?

Definitely not on the direct AF flights on the last 5 trips I made to SXM over the last 4 years

That's irrelevant though as what I think he's trying to say is that the jump from C to F in FB points are too great no matter where you want to fly to... I somewhat agree...

So using miles for First is a waste. Shorthaul often is a waste too, longhaul business is the best-value-option.

Shorthaul can be a good deal (e.g. in the continental US or between the US and Mexico, Caribbean, etc). Some intra-EU routes are expensive and award tix do make sense. I redeemed miles for an OTP-LIS ticket and it was well worth it.

As for longhaul award tix... it's a matter of opinion. If you go by the monetary value of the ticket and consider how much it would cost to pay cash, then yes, it appears to be a good deal. On the other hand, award inventory is tightly controlled, so the award seat that you got thinking it would have cost €5,000 actually cost the airline close to €0. Still, to some one trip in WBC may be worth 2 in Y; to me the destination is more important than the few hours I spend getting there, so I've redeemed most of my miles for Y tix. To each his own. :)

Shorthaul can be a good deal (e.g. in the continental US or between the US and Mexico, Caribbean, etc). Some intra-EU routes are expensive and award tix do make sense. I redeemed miles for an OTP-LIS ticket and it was well worth it.

Shorthaul often is a waste too,

Often is not always. And everyone has to decide for themselves if it is worth or not.

Is there any First to SXM?

Definitely not on the direct AF flights on the last 5 trips I made to SXM over the last 4 years

That's irrelevant though as what I think he's trying to say is that the jump from C to F in FB points are too great no matter where you want to fly to... I somewhat agree...

He's right.

I think we are talking about very different situations. In the UK a short haul FB award flight tends to cost nearly as much, if not more, in taxes than a similar flight would cost with another carrier. Long haul economy flight awards suffer for the same reason. It is the taxes that make them prohibitive. Long haul award flights in C are good value, especially on promos. For example, BHX-MEX at 50,000 return and around £350 tax. I hate paying the taxes, but I look at this as a longhaul C return for £350 - and I think that is excellent. Now - have a look at the same flight in economy (25,000) and check the taxes. Then check the cheapest economy fare available from any carrier. Even KL has the trip at £415 (inclusive).

If I took this trip in economy on a promo it would cost me 25,000 miles, and for that I would save a total £90 if I flew with KL (taxes being around £325). In other words, I would be spending 25,000 miles (plus taxes) to buy a flight that would cost me £90 (plus taxes - effectively) if I simply paid for it. That seems to be a poor use of miles. The taxes on a Y BHX-MEX cash ticket with KL are around £250 (of the £415 total), which is of course quite a bit lower than the taxes on an award ticket for the same class. Good old FB :>)

Mexicana has an economy return from LON-MEX at £350, including all taxes, airport charges etc. In other words, you can get an economy flight for pretty much the same price as you would pay FB in taxes, but you do not have to give up 25,000 miles as well. So what use are the miles? The only value I and many others see in miles is for a different product - C class travel - and despite complaints from many of us about various things, C is very very different from Y.

The KL price for this trip in C is around £2,000. The Mexican price is around £1,200. Both include taxes etc. So - a trip that would cost from £1,200 upwards for £350.

Finally, even for a 25% miles gaining KL flight (like the one at £415), UK-MEX would earn over 3,000 level and award miles. Though this might not be enough on its own to opt for buying a Y ticket rather than using award miles for it, put together with the other factors mentioned, there is just no sense in using award miles in Y.