WestJet "Passenger Perks" - New service YYC/YEG to Hawaii

So what am I missing here? I thought the 737s were stretched to the limit flying YVR-HNL. How can they offer nonstop service from YYC/YEG to Hawaii?

http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi?rkey=1710023418&view=87295-2&Start=0&htm=0
http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi?rkey=1710023417&view=87295-2&Start=0&htm=0

YEG-OGG is 2760 nm and apparently a basic 737-700 has a full load range of 3365 nm.

Thanks for the news, which is good news! ^

YEG-OGG is 2760 nm and apparently a basic 737-700 has a full load range of 3365 nm.

I doubt that takes into account headwinds. Otherwise why would WS have had some diversions between HI and YVR?

Otherwise it is ho hum. Once a week, for a whole two months. Sounds more like an attempt to damage AC's loads and yields more than anything else. If WS is playing that game, its just more proof the low-hanging fruit is long gone.

The 737-800 operates YVR-Hawaii and the 737-700 will operate YEG & YYC-Hawaii. The -700 has longer range but will need to be load restricted from what I'm hearing.

...Otherwise it is ho hum. Once a week, for a whole two months. Sounds more like an attempt to damage AC's loads and yields more than anything else. If WS is playing that game, its just more proof the low-hanging fruit is long gone.


Wrong on all counts as usual.

Chances of PE and Ms. PE flying ErrorCanada to Hawaii = 0

Chances on WestJet? Already looking for dates to fly with cost of little concern - although sales are often cause to book multiple trips to other places that WestJet serves ex-YEG like PSP and PHX.

YEG-OGG is 2760 nm and apparently a basic 737-700 has a full load range of 3365 nm.
Yes, the -700 has the range to get to HNL. It's the alternate mainland airport required for ETOPS that can be a problem. The plane has to fly a route that keeps it within 3 hours of a suitable airport for landing at all times. If some west coast airports are not suitable due to forecasted weather, it could have to fly an indirect route, and therefore must carry enough fuel to do so. This was a problem when WS first started flying to Hawaii from YVR.
The 737-800 operates YVR-Hawaii and the 737-700 will operate YEG & YYC-Hawaii. The -700 has longer range but will need to be load restricted from what I'm hearing.
According to the WS website, the -700 has a range of 3800 miles while the -800 has a range of 3521 miles. The -800 is weight-restricted flying to Hawaii out of YVR. The numbers still aren't adding up, unless the -700 is going to fly half empty.

WS's route-planners must know what they're doing, but I suspect SFO might see a few more WS planes this winter.

The 737-800 operates YVR-Hawaii and the 737-700 will operate YEG & YYC-Hawaii. The -700 has longer range but will need to be load restricted from what I'm hearing.

Yes, it must to bring more extra liferaft & lifejacket, too. The entire 73Gs are flying overwater restrictions with ETOPS certifications by 120 minutes. It will have to be diversion to YVR to get refuel the plane. It will ongoing for next segments to Hawaii. It won't have any issue problems the entire aircraft.

WJ has 180min ETOPS certification, all aircraft already have lifevests, and the liferafts will need to be loaded. I hear the aircraft is load restricted but I'm not sure how much. Given that these are March/April flights, weather will not be an issue. Late Dec through Jan are the months where wind is the strongest. The -800 is weight restricted only on some days. Seats are sold up to 160 and the last six are usually opened up the day of.

It has been mentioned on canflyer that the middle seat on this flight will be blocked due to weight restriction.

Can someone confirmn?

Well, they have to fly their new planes somewhere. Hawaii is probably a good market around spring break and Easter, so perhaps they can break even on these routes flying heavily weight-restricted aircraft. But I seriously wonder whether they can make these routes work over a longer term.

I suspect, given a choice, they'd prefer not to be taking delivery of 7 new planes in the next 6 months.

Well, they have to fly their new planes somewhere. Hawaii is probably a good market around spring break and Easter, so perhaps they can break even on these routes flying heavily weight-restricted aircraft. But I seriously wonder whether they can make these routes work over a longer term.

I suspect, given a choice, they'd prefer not to be taking delivery of 7 new planes in the next 6 months.

Perhaps they can charge a premium for blocked seat....

In annual FA training, it was mentioned that the flights (operated on -700s) will be capped at 95 gsts due to weight restrictions and that the middle seats will be blocked. As for charging a premium for those flights because of the extra room, do fares starting at $329 (to HNL) and $369 (to OGG) sounds like premium fares (honest question as I've never flown to Hawaii on full fare from Canada)?

Wrong on all counts as usual.

Chances of PE and Ms. PE flying ErrorCanada to Hawaii = 0

Chances on WestJet? Already looking for dates to fly with cost of little concern - although sales are often cause to book multiple trips to other places that WestJet serves ex-YEG like PSP and PHX.

Anyone who willingly flies a narrowbody to HI needs their head examined. And when does WS LiveTV lose its signal over the Pacific?

nyone who willingly flies a narrowbody to HI needs their head examined. And when does WS LiveTV lose its signal over the Pacific?

Why is that? Is that a statement from someone who will never fly Westjet anyway? The signal dies about 30 minutes beyond YYJ. :eek: Big bad Westjet doesn't have LiveTV!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Why is that? Is that a statement from someone who will never fly Westjet anyway? The signal dies about 30 minutes beyond YYJ. :eek: Big bad Westjet doesn't have LiveTV!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

No, It won't get back on due to flying overwater and this is reason why that you can't be watch the LiveTV. Because the signal will be cutoff by across the ocean. It won't put back on when you get back to Canada. F/A will able to put the LiveTV on again.

A couple of things.

1. The -700 with 95 on board will have no problem reaching HNL or OGG. Restricting the payload allows for more fuel to be carried and the ability to step climb to more efficient altitudes sooner in the flight.

2. Due to changes in the way upper winds are modelled, their accuracy allowed changes in the amount of fuel carried for inaccurate wing forecasts. This change occurred a couple of years ago and applies to all ETOPS certified airlines.

3. I fail to see the difference between flying a narrow body vs. a wide body to HI. With the middle seat blocked and adequate legroom, you are at least as comfortable as you would be in Y in a 767.

4. WestJet has first run pay-per-view movies as well as LiveTV.

WestJet uses Bell ExpressVu Satellite Service. It is a North American focused satellite, therefore shortly after crossing Vancouver the signal fades and then is no longer able to be picked up by the aircraft.

For this reason, on Hawaii flights the movies do not begin until Approx. 45 minutes in flight and then a 14 minute count down followed by a 14 minute viewing then the channels dissappear for movies. (as opposed to the immediate countdown initiation on normal flights) and they run through two times.

Us, the flight attendants do not control the LiveTV system except for setting it to Standby for landing and takeoff and "Free" for while we're on the ground (after deplanement) during extended ground delays and while we are in the air. (tv's are NOT set to FREE on the ground outside of Canada due to licensing issues)

So we don't "deactivate" the tv's over the ocean. The signal fades in and out automatically.

The same thing happens once we leave the Florida Panhandle on the way to the Caribbean and Mexico.

Anyone who willingly flies a narrowbody to HI needs their head examined. And when does WS LiveTV lose its signal over the Pacific?

Usual sour grapes and nothing constructive to say.

Usual sour grapes and nothing constructive to say.

LOL. Actually this thread has been one of the most interesting and illuminating in the WS forum for years. That the company is actually desperate enough to fly a route where they're having to block off so many seats speaks volumes about the state of their business. How many more planes do they still have on order....

I read on another forum that no mainland carrier makes money flying 737's to HI (even with all the seats available). Interesting hypothesis and if true, one has to wonder why WS does it.

I read on another forum that no mainland carrier makes money flying 737's to HI (even with all the seats available). Interesting hypothesis and if true, one has to wonder why WS does it.

And why AS keeps adding destinations/routes to it's Hawaii network.
Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't AS the only american carrier flying 737s from the mainland? The other carrier to fly 737s to Hawaii was AQ. AQ was island based and they went broke.

The other bit of WS newest routes I find interesting, it's daytime flying.
Hawaii is generally a low yield market, perfect for red-eyes to increase a/c utilization.
As a customer, a HI-AB redeye with a blocked middle seat, almost sounds like an attractive proposition. 6+ hours of flying, 5 hours without the distraction of live TV, sounds perfect for overnight flying. Maybe the margins are so thin on this route they need all passengers awake, buying movies & BOB to make it profitable.

Either way market conditions and Darwin will decide if AB-HI is a good idea in a 737. Will vouchers be given out if a tech stop is required? Just because historical wind data favours n/s flying in March and April doesn't mean things won't be different this year.

That the company is actually desperate enough to fly a route where they're having to block off so many seats speaks volumes about the state of their business.

It doesn't make any sense. AC is quite happy to make Europe and S.America bound pax troop through their YYZ hub, but now they've decided that hubs don't apply to Asia flights? Sounds more like grasping at straws than anything else.

Why is it that whenever WS or AC thinks about adding flights from Alberta (that would bypass BC), you'll be there to cry about it? Is it because YVR gets a few less connecting passengers each time?

Pretty sad. :( LOL

... That the company is actually desperate enough to fly a route where they're having to block off so many seats speaks volumes about the state of their business. How many more planes do they still have on order....

How is your favourite carrier doing these days?

The Hawaii flights are for a trial period to accomplish a number of goals that ErrorCanada - and their sour grape Apologists - can't seem to grasp:

1. Certainly to deploy new aircraft as they are delivered - rather than begging for government 'loans'.

2. See what actual demand is for point-to-point flying is as oppposed to the ErrorCanada YYZ-centric version (enjoying the cuts to Asia out of Vancouver are you?). PHX and PSP being great examples of not only testing a market but also creating a demand by serving a market - something that escapes Apologists like you.

3. Maintaining brand loyalty in its dominant markets in Alberta - where ErrorCanada is clueless. This past weekend while golfing lots of people were talking about the new 'Hawaii service.' No one talked about ErrorCanada save and except to mention how much they dislike it.

If it doesn't work, WestJet admits it.

When was the last time you heard that out of the bunker in YUL? When have they ever admitted their part in the embarrassing CCAA fiasco?

WestJet is not Hard-Up at all, we as a matter of fact just released our September 09 Load Factor results which were a 2.2% increase over load factors in September 2008!

And I think that 95 people to Hawaii on an ETOPS -700 would be awesome. No one in the middle seat, and best of all not being STUCK in a middle seat?

Additionally "distraction" from LiveTv on night flights comes to those who choose to ignore the announcements we make on board. "if you;d like to turn off your television so it's not staring you in the face while you sleep, hold down the minus button till it turns off."

The price people pay for ignorance.

Oh, and it speaks nothing of desperation. Calgarians and Edmontonians for years have cried for WS to have a direct non-stop service to HNL/OGG from Alberta. Now they're getting it, and if you ask me... I think it's an EXCELLENT idea and I'm sure it will be as profitable as it can be (number of guests vs. fuel load)

WestJet isn't stupid or ignorant. They won't just blindly go into a market if they know they won't make a dime. It's not operationally or financially fesible. Now I can't wait to hear the FA's opinions about this because this would be our longest flight, I do believe.

And why AS keeps adding destinations/routes to it's Hawaii network. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't AS the only american carrier flying 737s from the mainland? The other carrier to fly 737s to Hawaii was AQ. AQ was island based and they went broke.

The other bit of WS newest routes I find interesting, it's daytime flying.
Hawaii is generally a low yield market, perfect for red-eyes to increase a/c utilization...

Yes its odd. This person was adamant you couldn't make money doing it, and carriers were just doing it for aircraft utilization. Which is why its very strange to fly it during the daytime.

WestJet is not Hard-Up at all, we as a matter of fact just released our September 09 Load Factor results which were a 2.2% increase over load factors in September 2008!

And I think that 95 people to Hawaii on an ETOPS -700 would be awesome. No one in the middle seat, and best of all not being STUCK in a middle seat?
.

95 people? Yes and 100 people on a 777 to LHR would be fabulous, but disastrous for business. There's something odd, I'd say even un-WS like about these flights. They'd never have engaged in such guaranteed loss-making pre-Durfy. Couple that with the recent odd share issue.

LF is great, but with poor yield, it means nothing.

WestJet is not Hard-Up at all, we as a matter of fact just released our September 09 Load Factor results which were a 2.2% increase over load factors in September 2008!

And I think that 95 people to Hawaii on an ETOPS -700 would be awesome. No one in the middle seat, and best of all not being STUCK in a middle seat?

Load factors are traditionally calculated as a percentage of avialable seat km. filled.

If 95 seats are for sale and 95 seats get filled is the load factor 100%? Or is LF closer to 70% because 95 of 136 seats were filled?
Remember LF and profitability are not equal formulas.

Westjet is only operating the non stop flights on the peak days of the busiest time of year for travel to Hawaii which are school breaks and the Easter Holiday! They are not flying them during the slower winter periods when all you can get is $269 for the flight. Why do that to lose money?

The lowest fare I can find is $369 one way, but the busy days are already well over $500!

Even with only 80% full on a 110 seats of a 135 seat aircraft, they won't have a problem making a money with average fares way over $400.

They can probably charge even more because the daytime flights mean that people don't have to spend $250 per room to overnight in Honolulu or Maui before taking the next flight to the other islands and there is NO REDEYE which people HATE!!!!

One thing is for sure is that Westjet doesn't fly routes unless they make money. They have shown that for 12+ years!!!

:)

WestJet is not Hard-Up at all, we as a matter of fact just released our September 09 Load Factor results which were a 2.2% increase over load factors in September 2008!
And RSAM is down 15-17%. Load factor is irrelevant.

Additionally "distraction" from LiveTv on night flights comes to those who choose to ignore the announcements we make on board. "if you;d like to turn off your television so it's not staring you in the face while you sleep, hold down the minus button till it turns off."

Except that the damn thing keeps turning itself back on all the time. Very annoying! More than once, I've thought about bringing along a piece of thin black cardboard to tape over the screen.

Even with only 80% full on a 110 seats of a 135 seat aircraft, they won't have a problem making a money with average fares way over $400.

We're talking 95 seats here ... you're starting at a load factor of just under 70% if you sell out. Also, the first return flight and the last outbound flight will likely be dead empty, which is significant if you are going to average the load factor over only 8 or 9 flights, which is all they are flying on any of the three routes. That means if they sell every seat (except those on the first return flight and the last outbound flight), they will be operating with an average load factor no higher than 62%. Hawaii is well known as a load-yield destination. Now tell me again, this will be profitable?

I'm usually a supporter of WestJet, but this makes no sense at all. The 737-700 is completely the wrong plane for this route. Now if they had some 737-700ERs, they'd be just fine (provided they didn't try operating nonstop from YYZ).

And RSAM is down 15-17%. Load factor is irrelevant.

Except that the damn thing keeps turning itself back on all the time. Very annoying! More than once, I've thought about bringing along a piece of thin black cardboard to tape over the screen.

We're talking 95 seats here ... you're starting at a load factor of just under 70% if you sell out. Also, the first return flight and the last outbound flight will likely be dead empty, which is significant if you are going to average the load factor over only 8 or 9 flights, which is all they are flying on any of the three routes. That means if they sell every seat (except those on the first return flight and the last outbound flight), they will be operating with an average load factor no higher than 62%. Hawaii is well known as a load-yield destination. Now tell me again, this will be profitable?

I'm usually a supporter of WestJet, but this makes no sense at all. The 737-700 is completely the wrong plane for this route. Now if they had some 737-700ERs, they'd be just fine (provided they didn't try operating nonstop from YYZ).

If there are only 110 seats available, then that is what the AVAILABLE seat miles are made up of. The other blocked seats are not AVAILABLE. They wouldn't be included inthe calculation I would think.

Why would the first flight come back empty?

These are not the first flights to Hawaii!!

There would already be hundreds / thousands of Calgary - based passengers already in Hawaii who would have flown one stop to Hawaii prior to the new flights being launched but non-stop coming back, right? Same at the other end with people flying non-stop to Hawaii but the usual one-stop on the way back when the progamme ends.

I think these flights will be as full as WJ wants them to be, especially because they are NOT REDEYES and they can connect to all the other islands easily!!! I also think that because of the times, these flights will attract a far higher than average fare. I would not judge the fares for these flights based on what you see 6 months before they fly!!!

If you land in Hawaii anywhere after 8:30 pm, you are STUCK where you are until the next morning at $200+++ a night for the hotel room.

I'd rather pay $150 more for a flight that allows me to connect to where I am going than pay $200 for a hotel room + meals + taxi and lose a half day of my holiday!!!!

Wouldn't you????

BTW, you must be the only one who has difficulty with the brightness controller. If you turn it down, the screen goes off!

:)

LOL!
Oh soo sorry i've terribly apparantly misconceived what Load Factor means.

As for the brightness, if you turn the television off while it's in standby mode of COURSE it will turn back on once the system has been reset in the air. And it will only turn back ON if you press the plus button.

So, so sorry you're having issues. However, staff WILL ask you to remove anything you affix over the screen. Would you like it if I came to your house and taped a piece of cardboard over your television?

A 737-700ER has additional fuel tanks. The only change is you can sell MORE seats on board. Still not as profitable because every pound you add to an aircraft increases fuel burn. I'm pretty sure this will be a profitable route.

October 5, 2009. WestJet today announced September traffic results with a load factor of 77.7 per cent, a year-over-year improvement of 2.2 percentage points. Revenue passenger miles (RPM) increased 0.4 per cent year over year, and capacity, measured in available seat miles (ASM), declined 2.5 per cent over the same period.

“We are encouraged by our year-over-year improvement in September’s load factor,” said WestJet President and CEO Sean Durfy. “While the demand environment remained a challenge, our strategic capacity management, strengthening sales channels and strong brand helped us end the quarter on a positive note.”

“With the third quarter of 2009 coming to an end, we anticipate a year-over-year revenue per available seat mile (RASM) decline of 15 to 17 per cent for the period – this is slightly better than our original expectations,” commented Sean Durfy. “As we move into the final quarter of 2009, and the winter travel season, we feel that WestJet Vacations is increasingly becoming a popular and trusted choice for Canadians seeking value.”

September 2009 traffic results





September 2009
September 2008
Change

Load factor
77.7%
75.5%
2.2 pts.

ASMs (billions)
1.381
1.417
(2.5%)

RPMs (billions)
1.073
1.069
0.4%







Third quarter 2009
Third quarter 2008
Change

Load factor
79.7%
81.4%
(1.7 pts.)

ASMs (billions)
4.503
4.551
(1.1%)

RPMs (billions)
3.587
3.705
(3.2%)







Year-to-date 2009
Year-to-date 2008
Change

Load factor
78.7%
80.9%
(2.2 pts.)

ASMs (billions)
13.175
12.851
2.5%

RPMs (billions)
10.374
10.402
(0.3%)





“The commitment of our WestJetters is extraordinary,” added Sean Durfy. “In a year when we are delivering several major projects, WestJetters have stepped up to the challenge, while continuing to build the type of trust and loyalty that comes from treating guests with care, respect and appreciation.”

This disclosure contains forward-looking statements, including, but not limited to, statements regarding projected RASM for the third quarter of 2009 and strategic initiatives to facilitate long-term profitable growth. These forward-looking statements are based on WestJet’s current assumptions and beliefs. However, these forward-looking statements are subject to, and may be affected by, numerous risks and uncertainties, some of which are beyond WestJet’s control. WestJet’s results may differ materially from those expressed in, or implied by, such statements. Factors that could cause or contribute to these differences include, but are not limited to: changes in consumer demand, changes in fuel prices, general economic conditions, the competitive environment and other factors described in WestJet’s public reports and filings, which are available on WestJet’s profile at www.sedar.com. Forward-looking statements are subject to change, and WestJet does not undertake to update, correct or revise any forward-looking statements as a result of any new information, future events or otherwise, except as may be required by applicable law.

About WestJet

WestJet is Canada's preferred airline, offering scheduled service throughout its 66-city North American and Caribbean network. Named one of Canada's most admired corporate cultures in 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008, WestJet pioneered low-cost flying in Canada. WestJet offers increased legroom, leather seats and live seatback television provided by Bell TV on its modern fleet of 81 Boeing Next-Generation 737 aircraft. With future confirmed deliveries for an additional 54 aircraft through 2016, WestJet strives to be one of the five most successful international airlines in the world.
\

If you askme, numbers are improving. RASM decrease was EXPECTED for this year therefore it has been budgeted for. Seriously, do you think they'd want to drive their own airline into the ground?

I don't think so.

The people who've come up with this routing are smarter than both you and myself. That's why they have th job. If it were my choice I'd send our 737's to Austrailia via Fiji and Hawaii.... but that's not my job. My job is to pass out drinks and sell food on board.

why you gotta take the love out of the industry and be so negative towards growth?

I got 95 from here:
In annual FA training, it was mentioned that the flights (operated on -700s) will be capped at 95 gsts due to weight restrictions and that the middle seats will be blocked.
which is why I used it to calculate the load factor. It's not a question of how many seats WS would like to sell; it's a question of how heavily the aircraft is weight-restricted. My point is that with so many blocked seats, it is highly unlikely the route can be profitable.
Why would the first flight come back empty?

These are not the first flights to Hawaii!!

There would already be hundreds / thousands of Calgary - based passengers already in Hawaii who would have flown one stop to Hawaii prior to the new flights being launched but non-stop coming back, right? Same at the other end with people flying non-stop to Hawaii but the usual one-stop on the way back when the progamme ends.
Then all you're doing is cannibalizing the YVR routes to fill the Alberta flights. Either way, you have to end up the equivilent of an empty plane when you start and end the Alberta routes, unless you can convince a plane-load of Hawaiians to fly to Alberta.

I commend HangTen and jong866's chearleading for WS. I agree that the schedule is good. I generally agree that WS is a good airline. I cannot agree that flying an aircraft designed for mid-transcon trips from Alberta to Hawaii is a good idea. We'll have to leave it at that, since we are not going to agree.

BTW, both of you really have to try turning your TVs off during a flight and see if they stay off. I have heard many others complain about this as well. Perhaps you see us coming and assign us special seats.

BTW, both of you really have to try turning your TVs off during a flight and see if they stay off. I have heard many others complain about this as well. Perhaps you see us coming and assign us special seats.

I am a Flight Attendant, With WestJet, and I commute to and from Calgary. Therefore I take MANY flights. Especially many RedEye flights. I haven't once had my tv turn back on after turning it off. Perhaps your elbow keeps hitting the plus button while you're asleep.

It's like a person of Large, umm... Stature? who has relatively large thighs and can't figure out for the life of him why his seat ALWAYS reclines after we make him put it back up. (he doesn't realize that his thigh is pressing on the button) so my way of dealing with it is, sir, if you put the arm rest UP it usually puts a "kink" in the cord preventing the seat from going back into the recline position *with a smile* and it works... most of the time

I don't mean to chear lead. :)

All I am saying is the flights are at very desireable times, (leaving 7:30am and back before 11pm), on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays only, (busy days), at the busiest time of year for winter holidays, early March to late April.

It's hard already to get seats for flights on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays at that time of the year, (it's easy now, but try again in the middle of Feb!!).

This is no different than adding extra flights to London in the summer or between Vancouver and Toronto at Xmas in the winter. There is so much demand that it will all fill and they will be able to get far higher fares on these peak days and times than if they were trying to fill early in the week in mid January to late Feb!!

Besides, if it is caniballizing Westjets already full flights that time of year, than what does the Air Canada non stop flights do to there Vancouver-Hawaii flights?

Maybe they should all go back to using Vancouver as the central point for Hawaii flights?

:)

The people who've come up with this routing are smarter than both you and myself. That's why they have th job. If it were my choice I'd send our 737's to Austrailia via Fiji and Hawaii....

Being done, twice weekly. ;)

Hasn't been done since FJ pulled out of YVR about a year ago.

Looks like the middle seat will only be blocked off on the first 8-10 rows, creating a premium economy class.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/westjet-plans-trial-to-leave-middle-seats-empty/article1331362/

Employees are being told there will be 95pax, the press is being told 115pax.
Who to believe?

Looks like the middle seat will only be blocked off on the first 8-10 rows, creating a premium economy class.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/westjet-plans-trial-to-leave-middle-seats-empty/article1331362/

There's nothing as entertaining as watching someone trying to polish a turd.

As for the number of blocked seats, nothing has been released internally or to the flight attendant group.

And as for "polishing turds" it can be done... they Mythbusted it!