Women Travelers - Ladies, can we have a chat about prostitution?

When recently in AMS I was talking with a young Dutch waitress/student about life in Holland and when the topic of prostitution came up she said she would rather not be a prostitute in much the same way someone might say that they wouldn’t want to live on the east coast or that they enjoy being a sole practitioner and are glad that they don’t work for a large CPA or law firm. In other words, it seemed to me that she was saying that prostitution was value-neutral and was something she could do if needed, but would prefer not to.

I did not think till afterwards to ask her (and I might have been too shy to ask) if she would have had a problem about her boyfriend going to a prostitute.

It has made me wonder, is there a rank order to infidelity? Is a business transaction with a whore less noxious than a one-night stand which is less emotionally actionable than a long term mistress? And, does it matter if it’s your boyfriend as opposed to your husband?

Sadly, as there is no men's forum, I can't have a parallel thread about gigolos.

And no, I’m not preparing a mea culpa for Mrs. Jailer; and yes, I did a search on this forum. Oh, because America is such a puritanical place perhaps you would mention nationality if you are comfortable doing so.

I'm an American.

I think there is a rank order to infidelity. I wouldn't like it but could probably forgive (depending on the overall status and quality of the relationship) a one night stand or a single visit to a prostitute. I would have much more of an issue if it were more than a single time and also would depend on how I found out about it. Another big concern would be health and that's why a whore would scare me more than a one night stand. I would have a much harder time accepting or forgiving a relationship.

If it were a boyfriend I would probably be less willing to move the relationship forward. A husband, you've both made promises and a committement to each other so I would be more willing to work through it.

That said, I'm not married and luckily haven't had to deal with this issue with a boyfriend (fingers crossed!)

My humble american opinion:

The business transaction in itself is less noxious than the other two. And if the business transaction were ok'ed in advance by me (which believe it or not would be possible under some very specific and rare circumstances) I wouldn't consider it infidelity.

However, it would be a different if the need to outsource became a habit or a detriment to the finances. And I'd be more accepting of it from a husband than a boyfriend.

One night stand is definitely less forgivable.

Mistress = buhbyenow.

Another big concern would be health and that's why a whore would scare me more than a one night stand.

Being that sex is how a whore makes her living, I would expect that unless she's a crack addict streetwalker, she will be more careful about health concerns than someone in a "I got drunk and had a one night stand" situation.

I'm an American.

I think there is a rank order to infidelity. I wouldn't like it but could probably forgive (depending on the overall status and quality of the relationship) a one night stand or a single visit to a prostitute. I would have much more of an issue if it were more than a single time and also would depend on how I found out about it. Another big concern would be health and that's why a whore would scare me more than a one night stand. I would have a much harder time accepting or forgiving a relationship.

If it were a boyfriend I would probably be less willing to move the relationship forward. A husband, you've both made promises and a committement to each other so I would be more willing to work through it.

That said, I'm not married and luckily haven't had to deal with this issue with a boyfriend (fingers crossed!)

I totally agree with absolutely everything Redhead said in her post. If I found out about some type of relationship mr b1513 was having he would be history. A one nighter with a prostitute, I suppose, I could forgive but wouldn't be happy about and I'm sure I'd make his life miserable for some time. With a relationship there's some type of emotional commitment there and that would be more important than the sex in my mind. The trust would be gone.

Bobette

It's a deal-breaker. No ifs, ands, or buts. Final.

American--and married for a loooong time. It is the emotional intimacy that counts rather than the physical. I could forgive -but would take as a symptom of problems --a one time or such event. I would deeply question any longer tme relationship. Honestly, I don't know that it would be unforgivablel--I have learned during my long marriage that you go through a number of stages and that some of them are difficult.

When recently in AMS I was talking with a young Dutch waitress/student about life in Holland and when the topic of prostitution came up she said she would rather not be a prostitute in much the same way someone might say that they wouldn’t want to live on the east coast or that they enjoy being a sole practitioner and are glad that they don’t work for a large CPA or law firm. In other words, it seemed to me that she was saying that prostitution was value-neutral and was something she could do if needed, but would prefer not to.

Probably because it is a licensed profession in the Netherlands, & not the taboo that it is in the US.

And because it is, they go through weekly health checks for sexual diseases.

So in one respect a licensed whore might be safer than the one-night stands some are saying would be ok, given that one-night stands probably aren't doing the whole health check thing, & if they're doing a 1-nighter w/ someone's hubby, fiance or boyfriend, they could be doing it w/ others as well ;)

Still think this is a topic for Omni. Cheers.

....Still think this is a topic for Omni. Cheers.

According to the letter of FT law, I don’t disagree with you Sharon. But here in what must be the most polite of FT venues, all responses have been on point and so while size may matter in some things, I have appreciated the quality over quanity approach in this forum as opposed to what would be expected in OMNI.

Stutter-stepping slightly, I am always skeptical of trying to legislate morality. It is generally a bad use of resources, often further victimizes victims (in this case many of the women), and undermines respect for the law since enforcement is so haphazard. FWIW, I have partaken in the same amount of hooker-services in places where it is legal and places where it is illegal.

Sadly, most of our female clients who have been prostitutes were abused (read: rape, incest, child abuse) and may be prostituting themselves to get money for drugs (read, maybe,: self-medicate). And, criminalizing johns likely does little societal good. Where legal, woman control their bodies more and are less vulnerable to pimps, etc. Plus, there are tax and health implications to legalization. However, I would want to be able to walk down the Las Vegas strip with my family w/out being hit on by street walkers.

That said, I am starting to see inmates, and I expect more, who have been prosecuted for crossing international borders to have sex with minors. I have long said that some branch of the United Nations, perhaps the World Health Organization, might lobby to have a pedophile tax put on plane tickets of countries that do not protect their children. Perhaps this stance would put me in the minority of FT-ers, but a, say, $300 excise tax to go to, say, Cambodia would raise awareness of the problem, cause some/many people to divert their travel and cause the non-compliant country to re-think its practices. The money could be used to educate/rescue children.

It has made me wonder, is there a rank order to infidelity?I don't think there is.

Is a business transaction with a whore less noxious than a one-night stand which is less emotionally actionable than a long term mistress?Any infidelity is noxious. I have to wonder if a person is purposely looking the other way if his/her spouse is having a long-term affair.

And, does it matter if it’s your boyfriend as opposed to your husband?Yes it does matter. He is a boyfriend, without any legal ties whatsoever to her. He didn't take an oath to be her husband, to love, honor and cherish her. She is free to get the hell out of there if her boyfriend is a cheat. Not as easy (and a hell of a lot more expensive) if they were married. The girlfriend would be devastated but free to do as she liked.

Also a woman who finds out that her boyfriend is a cheat is FORTUNATE to find this out before she were married to him, no matter how shocking and hurtful this new reality is. That's why I think men and women should take their time before getting married. They really need to see what kind of people they are ending up with. A cheat can't hide it for too long.

Oh, because America is such a puritanical place perhaps you would mention nationality if you are comfortable doing so.Is that supposed to be a slur? Because if it is, you didn't succeed. ;) You want puritanical? Try an Islamic country in which the women cover themselves head to toe in burkas, their choice or not. I think the US today is quite a secular nation.

I'm a New Yorker.

Isn't this a topic for Omni rather than the Women's forum?

Cheers.This thread has nothing to do with travel so I have to wonder how long this will stay here. Just because OMNI can be uncivilized, does this mean we turn the Women's forum into a safe free-for-all? That I guess is for the moderators to decide. Should our own politeness and respect for others mean that we have to widen our forum to include non-female-related travel topics? ;)

That all said, I think it's an interesting topic!

Somewhat applicable to the topic on hand, sex trade workers are challenging the constitutionality of Canada's prostition laws right now.

http://www.canada.com/trade+workers+challenge/2075225/story.html

I really hope they win. Our laws are antiquated and misogynistic at best, and outright dangerous for the sex trade workers.

Historically, women had VERY limited options to provide for themselves if they became widowed, outlived their families or fled their childhood homes ~ and in many places on this planet (to add a 'travel' angle ;) ) the circumstances for women are similar to the historical roots of prostitution. There was a market for their services then, all through history and there still is; and just like any other commodity if you remove the demand you diminish the stakeholders.

Choose to be a prostitute? I don't think a person chooses it, but it's a pretty easy occupation to get into if your options are limited.

Relationship deal breaker? Prostitute - probably not, because of the difference between sex and love. I've felt the biological urge and nothing else (I'm widowed and not in a relationship); ONS - yup, shows a supreme lack of self-control and violates trust; Mistress - start dividing your assets, hunny...

Canadian, if that matters.

Historically, women had VERY limited options to provide for themselves if they became widowed, outlived their families or fled their childhood homes ~ and in many places on this planet (to add a 'travel' angle ;) ) the circumstances for women are similar to the historical roots of prostitution. There was a market for their services then, all through history and there still is; and just like any other commodity if you remove the demand you diminish the stakeholders....


Your comment made me flash on the movie, Dangerous Beauty, about maybe the most powerful (non-royal) women of her time, Veronica Franco (1546-1591)…poet, wit, and courtesan to the rich and famous….Left without a dowry, she was too poor to re-marry but had much influence until—if the movie is to be believed—moral outrage in the wake of the Black Death put the courtesan culture out of business.

And since this thread remains in “Women Only”, here’s some fashion trivia: I believe that high heel shoes were first made popular in Venice, where they were needed so that women could keep their hems dry and free of the filth thrown into the canals.

This thread has nothing to do with travel so I have to wonder how long this will stay here. Just because OMNI can be uncivilized, does this mean we turn the Women's forum into a safe free-for-all? That I guess is for the moderators to decide. Should our own politeness and respect for others mean that we have to widen our forum to include non-female-related travel topics? ;)

That all said, I think it's an interesting topic!

I think its an interesting topic too... and pertinent especially to women who travel or who have partners who travel .. particularly to countries where it is either legal, more socially acceptable, or even a social norm.

At least as on topic as Merrell shoes ;)

or nails

or Coldwater Creek coupons

or any of the other stuff we talk about in here

I think its an interesting topic too... and pertinent especially to women who travel or who have partners who travel .. particularly to countries where it is either legal, more socially acceptable, or even a social norm.

At least as on topic as Merrell shoes ;)

or nails

or Coldwater Creek coupons

or any of the other stuff we talk about in hereYup on all counts! :D

For me, there's no "rank order of infidelily". It doesn't matter to me if the boyfriend/husband slept with a prostitute, mistress or one-night stand. A bond of trust has been broken in any of those situations.

As for how I'd react? I'm single at the moment, but if the guy was my boyfriend, that would be grounds to end the relationship then and there. If the guy was my husband, I may try harder to forgive him and save the marriage. But in any case, I would consider the relationship to be seriously damaged and would want to try to figure out why it happened and how to keep it from happening again.

For those women who say that ANY intercourse, no matter how non-intimate, is a deal-breaker, at the other end of the spectrum how do you categorize masturbation? Is that a deal-breaker? What if your man (or woman) pays a woman (or another man) for manual stimulation to completion?

Is the line that any other person is involved in any way?

What if your man (or woman) masturbates in front of you but calls out another woman's (or man's) name at climax? Is that just a big fight or a deal breaker?

For me, there is ranking. Emotional cheating is much worse than physical ones. Not that it's OK either way, but there are different shades of grays.

On the other hand, I do believe in legalizing prostitute. The industry is not going anywhere, there will always be customers, and therefore we should protect the women who chose that career. Hot topics though.

For those women who say that ANY intercourse, no matter how non-intimate, is a deal-breaker, at the other end of the spectrum how do you categorize masturbation? Is that a deal-breaker? What if your man (or woman) pays a woman (or another man) for manual stimulation to completion?

Is the line that any other person is involved in any way?

What if your man (or woman) masturbates in front of you but calls out another woman's (or man's) name at climax? Is that just a big fight or a deal breaker?This is why one doesn't RUSH into marriage! :D These "deal breakers" can't be hidden for long so if you're with a defect who starts calling someone else's name in the midst of passion and/or pays for someone to arouse him/her, you find this out before you marry and get rid of that person ASAP. ;) This is one of the many purposes of dating.

This is why one doesn't RUSH into marriage! :D These "deal breakers" can't be hidden for long so if you're with a defect who starts calling someone else's name in the midst of passion and/or pays for someone to arouse him/her, you find this out before you marry and get rid of that person ASAP. ;) This is one of the many purposes of dating.

So you would dump a guy you were dating if he called out 'oh, Jodie Foster!' in a moment of passion...or, say, while in the shower?

And is self-stimulation inlcuded in this weeding-out process?

Masturbation is perfectly normal and healthy behaviour. I'd think it weird if a boyfriend/husband didn't self-pleasure at least occasionally. I would only worry if it became a replacement for the real thing with me!

Fantasies are also normal. Yeah, I'd be upset if, during masturbation, mutual masturbation, or intercourse if he called out another person's name. But it would be the start of a conversation, not a 100% deal-breaker. I would be more upset if he always fantasised about another person and had an emotional connection to that person. Like the OP said, emotional cheating is worse than the physical cheating - at least to me.

If he paid someone to either watch him masturbate or manually stimulate him - that is definitely (IMHO) cheating.

So you would dump a guy you were dating if he called out 'oh, Jodie Foster!' in a moment of passion...or, say, while in the shower?Jodie Foster, Vince Foster....doesn't matter. ;)

And is self-stimulation inlcuded in this weeding-out process?Read what I wrote. That question is answered. Did I include that?

It probably matters to the person yelling out the name.... :)

Jodie Foster, Vince Foster....doesn't matter. ;)

....Like the OP said, emotional cheating is worse than the physical cheating....

Red, I do not believe that I took sides morality-wise if there is a rank order of cheating and, if so, what that should be. Moreover, as my question was directed at women, I don’t think that I get a vote anyhow, and so if I implied a rank order it was unintended.

Red, I do not believe that I took sides morality-wise if there is a rank order of cheating and, if so, what that should be. Moreover, as my question was directed at women, I don’t think that I get a vote anyhow, and so if I implied a rank order it was unintended.

Jailer I was actually referring to the post by adamark.