JAL Mileage Bank - Credit card companies refusing payments for JL ticket issues overseas?

The transport minister just gave a news conference in Japan, allaying concerns about 'unexpected' events developing out of JL's current financial debacle. Cited among them was credit card companies overseas are refusing to honor purchases of JL tickets. Anyone had first-hand experiences?

They also mentioned something about travel insurance denied for JL passengers in package tours or something but I can't recall exactly what it was.

The minister, Seiji Maehara, was giving assurances that the government is ready to provide help to JL.

JAL has made a statement on their website in Japanese but looks like it's related to JMB. Anyone knows what's going on?

http://www.jal.co.jp/cms/jalmile/ja/jmb_1063.html



I issued two separate JAL tickets in the US for my Nov and Dec travels last week. So far no problem but I did use my JAL Premio card to buy the tickets and no way they are not honoring the purchases :D

JAL has made a statement on their website in Japanese but looks like it's related to JMB. Anyone knows what's going on?

http://www.jal.co.jp/cms/jalmile/ja/jmb_1063.html



I issued two separate JAL tickets in the US for my Nov and Dec travels last week. So far no problem but I did use my JAL Premio card to buy the tickets and no way they are not honoring the purchases :D

The statement, dated Sept. 28, is addressing various rumors about the mileage program, presumably including those about the possibility of the program being shut down. JL is saying they will continue 'enhancing the value' of its FFP. Nothing more or less.

I get an impression that today's press conference by the minister is about very recent developments and 'concerns' that JL is running out of cash.

The statement, dated Sept. 28, is addressing various rumors about the mileage program, presumably including those about the possibility of the program being shut down. JL is saying they will continue 'enhancing the value' of its FFP. Nothing more or less.

I get an impression that today's press conference by the minister is about very recent developments and 'concerns' that JL is running out of cash.

Thanks for the translation. Here's the news about today's conference.


http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20090930-00000584-san-bus_all

前原国交相によれば、海外の金融機関の間では、日航を旅行会社向けの保険適用除外の対象としたり、クレジッ トカードによる発券の取引を停止したりする動きが出ているという。このほか株式市場では、海外投資家の間で 日航株を手放す動きが広がっている。

And according to Nikkei.com (http://www.nni.nikkei.co.jp/e/fr/tnks/Nni20090930D30SS138.htm), the press conference is to eliminate those concerns and their negative effects on JAL and its cash flow.

Asked why Maehara called the meeting, the minister said, "It's the government's responsibility to completely wipe out harmful rumors or excessive worries about JAL."

He added, "Should the carrier be negatively affected by rumors about it, the government will do its utmost to ensure there is no impact on JAL's flight operations and cash flow."

So sounds like there is some kind of cash flow problem because of all the rumors especially when the credit card companies refuse to honor ticket purchases :mad:

Here's the translation from bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aObMn0do2hi0)

“Some overseas financial institutions have excessive concern about Japan Airlines,” Maehara said, citing a travel insurance company that has excluded coverage for the carrier’s flights and a British bank that has refused credit-card payments for Japan Air tickets, without naming the companies. “I felt that the government needs to put an end to it.”

Now I am interested to find out the British bank and the insurance company names. They are definitely not getting my business in the near future :mad:

And from the same report, it mentions JAL has ENOUGH cash to get through December.

Here's the translation from bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aObMn0do2hi0)



Now I am interested to find out the British bank and the insurance company names. They are definitely not getting my business in the near future :mad:

And from the same report, it mentions JAL has ENOUGH cash to get through December.

I understand your reaction. But the same risk-averse attitude prevailed in the financial tsunami. Counterparties maybe over-cautious, but why take the risk? Premium credit cards have an insurance protecting the consumer, and they will have to cover if JL defaults. Agreed that it is only a microscopic probabillity but why take the risk? Yes, JL has some cash, but if things get bad because of public confidence that will not last more than a few days/weeks. They have enough cash till December UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES. I know friends whose companies are not booking on JL anymore coz the risk of flight cancellation or other troubles.

Unfortunately, even a Japanese airline has to adapt to international reactions. Just some blabla by the airline or a ministry is not enough. Until JL has a credible and concrete plan, things will keep deteriorating.

I understand your reaction. But the same risk-averse attitude prevailed in the financial tsunami. Counterparties maybe over-cautious, but why take the risk? Premium credit cards have an insurance protecting the consumer, and they will have to cover if JL defaults. Agreed that it is only a microscopic probabillity but why take the risk? Yes, JL has some cash, but if things get bad because of public confidence that will not last more than a few days/weeks. They have enough cash till December UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES. I know friends whose companies are not booking on JL anymore coz the risk of flight cancellation or other troubles.

Unfortunately, even a Japanese airline has to adapt to international reactions. Just some blabla by the airline or a ministry is not enough. Until JL has a credible and concrete plan, things will keep deteriorating.

When all those US carriers got into deep trouble and actually went bankrupt, the banks did not refuse ticket purchases of their tickets (I know the economy were better back then). But in a more recent case, I have never heard of credit card companies refuse to honor purchase of a GM car extended warranty coverage or the car itself. So why doing this to JAL? And I seriously hope THAT British bank is not one of the ones who received bailout money and started this tsunami.

What upset me most is the aviation minister said time is running out but yet he dismisses the panel set up by the previous minister even BEFORE hearing about JAL's plan from JAL CEO. Remember that original plan was developed under the supervision/advise of the expert panel consists of EXPERTS like professors and bankers. And now he set up a new one to draft a new plan but pushes the restructuring by TWO MONTHS! In some ways, he's the one to blame for too :p

... concerns about 'unexpected' events developing out of JL's current financial debacle. Cited among them was credit card companies overseas are refusing to honor purchases of JL tickets. Anyone had first-hand experiences?


Wow !!

Fishy indeed... Really reminds me of the downfall of Sabena, Swissair, Pan Am, Varig, etc.

An airline is not a bank, even it is "too big to fail" it also remains "too big to save".

I think this one is going down, pretty much the same way Swissair went down.

The end is nigh. The end is nigh !!!

Next thing to happen, will be suppliers and other credit card companies refusing to give credit to the airline, with JAL having to give its pilots 'cash in hand' to buy fuel at its international airports.

Then they'll start cutting flights, returning a whole lot of planes to the leasing companies.

And soon, before you know it, it will be game over for good: time to liquidate the company (I hope they will refund me my money before that, those fckers still own me some money), and with it its FFP: the JAL Mileage Bank.

Only then some white knight will step in, to pick up the pieces. Wonder what they will do with the JAL Mileage Bank (heard that accounting-wise there is almost 1bn USD of outstanding liabilities in JMB alone!!).

In other news, for the first time in many, many days JAL's share price ended up today, at 133 JPY. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=9205:JP).

Is it possible that the rise of its share price is due to the rumors that JAL is about to liquidate the JMB FFP ??

.

In other news, for the first time in many, many days JAL's share price ended up today, at 133 JPY. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=9205:JP).

Is it possible that the rise of its share price is due to the rumors that JAL is about to liquidate the JMB FFP ??

.

The roughly 4% jump in JL's stock price on Sept. 30 came right after news that the transport ministry was going to give a news conference. Many had been expecting the minister to unveil a bailout package for JL, which he did not. The news conference was given after the stock market was closed.

Just changing all C class tkts from our employees to BA, CX and AA. We had more than 15 roundtrips (NRT-FRA/LHR and NRT-LAX) for Oct/Nov and the latest developments on JL forced us to migrate.
Unfortunately is a matter of time and we don't share the gov't position on putting more tax money on JL.

Just changing all C class tkts from our employees to BA, CX and AA. We had more than 15 roundtrips (NRT-FRA/LHR and NRT-LAX) for Oct/Nov and the latest developments on JL forced us to migrate.
Unfortunately is a matter of time and we don't share the gov't position on putting more tax money on JL.

Actions like this will just cause JL to go bankrupt even faster!

Actions like this will just cause JL to go bankrupt even faster!

Or just cause the government to put in more tax money :p

Actions like this will just cause JL to go bankrupt even faster!

Sure, but before that happens, we should also put/anticipate another important ingredient into this mix: social/industrial action.

There is nothing that beats the combination of short-term and multi-day strikes, airport expressway blockades, runway and taxiway interference, mechanics strikes, catering strikes, luggage handling and ramper slow-motion tactics, etc. etc. Oh yes!!

This can go both ways, of course: the way of Pan Am, or the way of Alitalia. With anything similar to Varig, Sabena, Swissair, etc. in between.

If the JAL workforce wants to put sufficient pressure on the Japanese govt., they almost certainly will start making use of these different forms of social/industrial action, even in Japan.

In the event of industrial action though, you're far more secure if you have paid with an international credit card. Now with some international credit card companies reviewing the TOC of their commercial relationship with JAL, this could quickly become a problem. Besides, I can see many of the big travel agencies/tour groups/corporate accounts/partner airlines doing the same, indeed.

Anyway, if you want to avoid getting caught up in this, I think you're better off booking with the competition (even in the very short term). For JL-operated flights for which there is no alternative, book on a codeshare number with one of the partnerairlines (endorsable).

In other news, share price was up this morning (after yesterday evening's press conference), but it is now all the way down again now.

.

Some airlines in the US were acutally forced out of business because the credit card companies refused to allow charges unless they had money in escrow. So even if JL has money to last a few months that might not be enough.

Actions like this will just cause JL to go bankrupt even faster!

Sure, would you put your money in JL if there are many other carriers offering same or better product without the risk of bankruptcy? Business these days can't afford to use risky suppliers. It is just a service of transportation, not strategic supplier anyway.

Sure, would you put your money in JL if there are many other carriers offering same or better product without the risk of bankruptcy? Business these days can't afford to use risky suppliers. It is just a service of transportation, not strategic supplier anyway.

Well, if you're talking "better"... looking a couple of posts above yours, CX? probably, BA? if you spend big, I guess, AA? Only if you don't give a ... about service. Outclassed by JL in most cases. For short-term trips I wouldn't move flights off them. And even more so for China-Japan routes- most Chinese airlines aren't nearly the same class as JL in terms of service (maybe MU/FM based on personal experience).

Though my opinions have been colored by personal experience... and my experiences with AA are mostly from endorsed UA tickets (they seem to have a penchant for delays and misconnects on their last connecting flight of the day to my particular destination, but always just in time to catch the last AA flight if the customer service is quick enough endorsing my ticket over to AA) so I may not be getting the "full" experience.

Outclassed by JL in most cases. For short-term trips I wouldn't move flights off them. And even more so for China-Japan routes- most Chinese airlines aren't nearly the same class as JL in terms of service (maybe MU/FM based on personal experience).


Hmmm, are you sure you know what you're talking about??

I know that they are planning to merge next year, but you shouldn't compare FM with MU. The one is the best Chinese airline (FM), the other must be the worst (MU)!

I don't think it's much of a coincidence that NH is codesharing with FM/CA, and that JL is codesharing with MU. It's called service, reliability and overall quality management. As far as the Chinese operations are concerned, I think that says it all.

Besides, as far as I know, JL and MU are amongst those airlines that are suffering most from the global economic downturn, as they are uncompetitive and as they have an inferior product and a far inferior image (not without reason).

I can confirm (first hand) that JL has some mighty problems to deal with, as far as its PRC/HKG operations are concerned.

I don't think the soft approach will help here... drastic action IS needed, indeed.

Now, as far as those credit card payments are concerned... any news???

.

Well, if you're talking "better"... looking a couple of posts above yours, CX? probably, BA? if you spend big, I guess, AA? Only if you don't give a ... about service. Outclassed by JL in most cases. For short-term trips I wouldn't move flights off them. And even more so for China-Japan routes- most Chinese airlines aren't nearly the same class as JL in terms of service (maybe MU/FM based on personal experience).

Though my opinions have been colored by personal experience... and my experiences with AA are mostly from endorsed UA tickets (they seem to have a penchant for delays and misconnects on their last connecting flight of the day to my particular destination, but always just in time to catch the last AA flight if the customer service is quick enough endorsing my ticket over to AA) so I may not be getting the "full" experience.

It seems that you only care about the soft product. If you go to hard product, JL C seat is one of the worst when compared with CX, BA, LA and even AA.

But for me more important is the safety record, where you can do a little research and find out that JL has a quite bad record. Questionable maintenance and a number of incidents the last 2-3 years. Today with such a cash shortage is JL spending on spare parts and doing it properly?

It seems that you only care about the soft product. If you go to hard product, JL C seat is one of the worst when compared with CX, BA, LA and even AA.

But for me more important is the safety record, where you can do a little research and find out that JL has a quite bad record. Questionable maintenance and a number of incidents the last 2-3 years. Today with such a cash shortage is JL spending on spare parts and doing it properly?

To be completely honest, the last time I've been on JL C was so long ago I barely remember it (accompanying my dad on a business trip... I won't go into detail on the reasons behind that). And the most recent time I've been on JL at all it was Y. I'm not picky at all when it comes to hard product, no (well, I mean, I draw the line around UA E- and JL never crossed that for me), so you've got me on that point. And because of that I pay lots of attention to everything else, including the "soft product". I guess I have a rather low bar compared to most people here? Could be due to my relative inexperience. As for the safety record, no, I haven't looked at that all that closely, but it seems that for the flights I traveled they haven't had any real problems. And I no longer travel them now (as of last year, was planning to start flying them again, but waiting until the dust settles on this now.)

I think the banks are very nervous about all airlines. I have dealt with an online TA (HKG) that can no longer afford to accept Visa/MC since the holding period on the funds is apparently so long, the transaction is no longer profitable.

In this particular case, I wonder how much pressure the airlines are putting on the banks - since the alternative is to book online (or direct) with the airline rather than the TA. And therefore a great deal more profitable to the airline.

Fred

I think the banks are very nervous about all airlines. I have dealt with an online TA (HKG) that can no longer afford to accept Visa/MC since the holding period on the funds is apparently so long, the transaction is no longer profitable.

In this particular case, I wonder how much pressure the airlines are putting on the banks - since the alternative is to book online (or direct) with the airline rather than the TA. And therefore a great deal more profitable to the airline.

Fred

JAL actually is trying to improve relationship with TA to help improve their bookings. At least that's what they said in the press release a while back. Of course it will be more profitable if you book the ticket directly through the airlines but who in their right mind would do it. A K class LAX-HKG ticket in Nov on JAL website is around 1300 but is only around 1000 through JTB. That's 30%+ more expensive...And there's no way to put yourself on waiting list through their website either. You have to buy whatever the cheapest class available at the time...if they really want to attract more people to buy tickets from their website, they need to be a bit more competitive on the price and improve usability.

Can airlines really pressure the bank? I think your case has more to do with the financial crisis when all the credit card companies withhold payments for a longer period of time on all transactions, not just air ticket purchases through TA.

So true.

Yesterday I was pricing out a RT J ticket to SFO from TPE.....website gave me some ridiculous pricing of over $5,000US!

Got a ticket (I) with CX instead by calling the CX Office, $2,500US only.

Sigh.

Booking on AA.com (which I use most often), there's not even JL flight options offered anymore!



... Of course it will be more profitable if you book the ticket directly through the airlines but who in their right mind would do it. A K class LAX-HKG ticket in Nov on JAL website is around 1300 but is only around 1000 through JTB. That's 30%+ more expensive...And there's no way to put yourself on waiting list through their website either. You have to buy whatever the cheapest class available at the time...if they really want to attract more people to buy tickets from their website, they need to be a bit more competitive on the price and improve usability...

So true.

Yesterday I was pricing out a RT J ticket to SFO from TPE.....website gave me some ridiculous pricing of over $5,000US!

Got a ticket (I) with CX instead by calling the CX Office, $2,500US only.


WHAT!?!?! only USD2500 for a TPE-SFO roundtrip on CX!? How low can it go...And it's from CX directly. I wonder if you can get it even cheaper with a travel agent.

The cheapest I have seen on JL for LAX-HKG is around USD3900 with JTB when they have a promotion. I wish JL could lower its price to be a bit more competitive :(

I think the ridiculous online pricing might just be a US thing. I remember seeing the USD3900 price for HKG-LAX roundtrip in C on JL Hong Kong website but never seen those available on the US website.

The transport minister just gave a news conference in Japan, allaying concerns about 'unexpected' events developing out of JL's current financial debacle. Cited among them was credit card companies overseas are refusing to honor purchases of JL tickets. Anyone had first-hand experiences?

I don't know whether this is caused by JAL's financial conditions, but when I tried to buy a JAL ticket online a couple of weeks ago, the charge was declined by US Diners Club card although I have no problem using my Diners Club card anywhere else. I used my American Express card instead, and it went through, though.

I don't know whether this is caused by JAL's financial conditions, but when I tried to buy a JAL ticket online a couple of weeks ago, the charge was declined by US Diners Club card although I have no problem using my Diners Club card anywhere else. I used my American Express card instead, and it went through, though.

My friend used his credit card to purchase a CX LAX-HKG roundtrip and the charge was declined by his credit card company too. I know this is due to his previous purchase history (never bought anything over a few hundreds let alone an air ticket). A simple call to his credit card company solved the problem.

Have you used your US Diners Club card to purchase tickets at similar price before?

WHAT!?!?! only USD2500 for a TPE-SFO roundtrip on CX!? How low can it go...And it's from CX directly. I wonder if you can get it even cheaper with a travel agent.

The cheapest I have seen on JL for LAX-HKG is around USD3900 with JTB when they have a promotion. I wish JL could lower its price to be a bit more competitive :(

I think the ridiculous online pricing might just be a US thing. I remember seeing the USD3900 price for HKG-LAX roundtrip in C on JL Hong Kong website but never seen those available on the US website.

CX in Japan is running a promotion selling Japan-U.S.A. (New York included) in business class (I would think booking class 'I') for 207,000 yen (US$2,300). If you don't mind the extra (lot of) time you would be spending on the planes. :)

.....

CX in Japan is running a promotion selling Japan-U.S.A. (New York included) in business class (I would think booking class 'I') for 207,000 yen (US$2,300). If you don't mind the extra (lot of) time you would be spending on the planes. :)

WOW how low can it go :eek: Too bad nothing come even close here in the US. I definitely don't mind spending more time on the plane but what I do mind is spending time on CX :p I still remember last time when I flew with CX, some passenger sitting behind put her bare feet right next to my friend's face :rolleyes:

My friend used his credit card to purchase a CX LAX-HKG roundtrip and the charge was declined by his credit card company too.

Maybe the credit card companies found out that on 22-Oct-2009, the B runway will extend to 2,500 m, compared to the current 2,180 m – facilitating widebody operations. The longer runway, which will be operational five months ahead of schedule, will provide for an increase in the annual number of slots at Narita from 200,000 at present to 220,000 from the Northern Summer schedule, effective from the end of Mar-2010, which doesn't bode well for JAL, for sure...

More info here: (fair use)



Narita Airport to alter taxiway to relieve congestion

Meanwhile, the airport is preparing work to alter an L-shaped section of a taxiway that has led to taxiing delays and restricted the B runway’s capacity to 14 takeoffs and landings per hour, less than half of the main A runway’s 32.

Narita International Airport Corp has acquired approximately 85 sqm of land from local farmers that had opposed the sale for almost 40 years, following a Jan-2008 Supreme Court ruling.

http://www.centreforaviation.com/news/2009/07/29/tokyo-narita-airports-runway-extension-of-little-comfort-as-passenger-traffic-plummets/page1


http://www.airliners.net/photo/0874120/L/
http://www.airliners.net/photo/0874120/L/

Makes you wonder when they are going to acquire the rest of the land and finally complete the rest of the runway. Probably after JAL goes under. Maybe then the local bureaucracy, politics and judicial system will allow for some real progress and for some real competition in the Japanese airline market. Because right now, well... it's a disgrace really. Even with the age-old duopoly, JAL is still not viable.

Well, of course they aren't viable.

Just image how much fuel is spent having these planes taxiing around the trees, the chickens, and the rest of those gddodamn farms, whilst other planes are flying holding patterns because there is a plane on a nearby taxiway, probably holding on that taxiway because of other incoming planes, etc. etc.

I mean come on, 4 Fx sake, that farm in the middle of the runway has been there for more than 40 years!!! And then they expect us to keep smiling when they - once again - are increasing the fuel surcharge. And of course, every other year, they coming knocking on the GOJ's door, asking for more handouts, or bailouts.

There is just too much fat and waste on these companies, especially on JAL, and especially on NRT. I really believe the Japanese can do better, and they might soon be forced to, as a lot more slots will become available at NRT and HND. Especially if JAL were to go under.

WOW how low can it go :eek: Too bad nothing come even close here in the US. I definitely don't mind spending more time on the plane but what I do mind is spending time on CX :p I still remember last time when I flew with CX, some passenger sitting behind put her bare feet right next to my friend's face :rolleyes:

I'ld say WOW... TYO-HKG is like 4 hours. And then back again on your way to the US. Twice (= Return tkt). Count in the HKG connection, and you've lost 20-24hrs in extra travel time :eek:. That is, if there are no typhoon warnings in HKG. TPE is probably only half that, but that's still at least 12-15 hrs extra. I'ld say it's only worth it if you are on a mileage run, or if you have some (romantic??) off-shore business to care off in Hong Kong ;).

.

I'ld say WOW... TYO-HKG is like 4 hours. And then back again on your way to the US. Twice (= Return tkt). Count in the HKG connection, and you've lost 20-24hrs in extra travel time :eek:. That is, if there are no typhoon warnings in HKG. TPE is probably only half that, but that's still at least 12-15 hrs extra. I'ld say it's only worth it if you are on a mileage run, or if you have some (romantic??) off-shore business to care off in Hong Kong ;).

.


I am well aware of the extra travel time. In fact that's what I did in July (LAX-NRT-HKG-KIX/ITM-HND-HKG-NRT-LAX) but on JAL. I could have flown to Osaka directly from Tokyo and saved 20 hours but I just enjoy flying (on JAL) too much and was trying to help them out a bit :p I wasn't even thinking of doing a MR back then. And I do have family in HK so that makes a difference too ;)

Just booked my RTW ex-ICN on JAL with zero issues on the credit card. I have purposely rescheduled my flights to fly on JL as much as possible to show them my support.

I have purposely rescheduled my flights to fly on JL as much as possible to show them my support.

Glad that I am not alone on this. Every bit of help counts ;)

Glad that I am not alone on this. Every bit of help counts ;)

+1:)

Glad that I am not alone on this. Every bit of help counts ;) +1:)

+2!

Agree that actions like those are the quickest way to drive a company out of business. It's unfortunate that they have such bad financial management.

While I'm no stranger to sudden failures of formerly "invincible" companies (I used to work for Arthur Andersen) I do think all this talk of JAL going under is premature and a bit hysterical. When was the last time a major world airline suddenly ceased operations? Even Pan Am didn't just suddenly die but gradually sold itself off in parts so that most of the company ended up transitioning over to other airlines in an orderly fashion. Witness all the airline bankruptcies in the US in recent years. Most failing airlines reorganize in Chapter 11 (UA and others) or get acquired (TW). Rarely do thousands of passengers find themselves suddenly stranded by an airline shutdown.

My hope and expectation is that the same thing will happen to JAL (if the airline can't save itself, which would obviously be the preferred outcome). Ultimately it will either merge or be reorganized or will slowly shrink or sell itself off in parts. It will be sad, for sure, but probably passengers won't be stranded and JAL miles won't suddenly become worthless.

JAL Stock way down again, hitting new lows in heavy trading: 94,00 JPY.

JAL now officially a "penny stock".

Word is possible suitors will only step in after formal bankruptcy, cherry picking (i.e. only taking whatever parts of the company they really like).

Minister no longer rules out bankruptcy.

Ceasing of certain airline operations scheduled around 8 January 2010.

Massive lay-offs later that day.

Some JAL companies being readied for liquidation.

Certain businesses to be managed under going concern, with operations being maintained or started up again a couple of days later. Other businesses to be placed under receivership.

Further (immediate) route cuts planned.

Obviously no Alitalia or Olympic Airways scenario here ...

Continuity NOT assured !!!

Shareholders standing to lose a lot value.

Despite GOJ having announced that it will guarantee credit card payments, such guarantees probably only apply to certain JAL undertakings and sub-branches, but not to all of them. Some out-of-port stations and international JAL undertakings apparently NOT(!) covered by GOJ guarantee.

Said guarantees also not applicable to certain banking facilities and credit lines being used by these entities.

Some entities therefore expected to experience serious/insurmountable liquidity problems after 01 January 2010.

In short: credit card companies and international financial institutions getting real nervous again !!!

Travelers advised to make bookings using their credit cards, rather than pay immediately through JAL or cash with (uninsured) travel agents.

So, once again it seems some bookings are no longer protected.

I wonder what the other "partner airlines" will do...

Actually, I say: Enough !!! Let it die already!!!

.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&tkr=9205%3AJP&sid=aNkrgrbyTeqE

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&tkr=9205%3AJP&sid=aDBNP7GT0vu8

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&tkr=9205%3AJP&sid=a5WRzyUCO5WE

Credit Cards may not protect you. I know of at least one case where Amex refused to issue refunds when a LCC went bankrupt.

Credit Cards may not protect you. I know of at least one case where Amex refused to issue refunds when a LCC went bankrupt.

How come?

How come?

It was when SY went under in 2001. The news media at the time reported that Amex had no collateral agreements with the airline. Visa and Mastercard did. The end result was Visa and Mastercard were likely to collect a portion of the monies owed in bankruptcy court as one of the creditors near the front of the line. Amex was going at the back of the line and had zero prospects of collecting any monies. According to reports Amex simply refused to refund monies to any of the card holders.

It was when SY went under in 2001. The news media at the time reported that Amex had no collateral agreements with the airline. Visa and Mastercard did. The end result was Visa and Mastercard were likely to collect a portion of the monies owed in bankruptcy court as one of the creditors near the front of the line. Amex was going at the back of the line and had zero prospects of collecting any monies. According to reports Amex simply refused to refund monies to any of the card holders.

wow I hope all major credit cards company have collateral agreements with JAL, the largest airlines in Asia by revenue (or should I say the most in debt one :rolleyes:)

Sure, would you put your money in JL if there are many other carriers offering same or better product without the risk of bankruptcy? Business these days can't afford to use risky suppliers. It is just a service of transportation, not strategic supplier anyway.


Some advice:


. Pay with an international credit card. Don't pay cash. Don't trust your travel agency. Don't trust JAL or any of its subsidiaries. Even if the GOJ guarantees some (though not all) payments and JAL undertakings, you might be in for a lot of administrative hastle and waiting time.
. Check on the T&C of your travel insurance. It's not sure that they will cover events such as these.
. Book codeshares on JL-operated flights. Book with partner airlines instead of with JL immediately.
. Book with the competition (e.g. NH) or on flights operated by JL's partner airlines.
. Don't book too far in advance. If JL is revived, expect to find very cheap promotional offers. If not, expect to lose your money on any advance bookings.
. Book as cheap as possible (e.g. Y instead of J). You can always try to upgrade later. JL's occupancy rates are miserable anyway.
. SPEND ANY REMAINING JMB-MILES IMMEDIATELY !!!! DO SO ON JL-PARTNER AIRLINES, INSTEAD OF ON JL ITSELF. Also credit your upcoming JL-miles with one of the partner airlines.
. Take up all the status-match offers you can possibly get: you might need them sooner than you would have imagined.
. ... etc.

In short, if you want to avoid getting caught up in this, I think you're better off booking with the competition (even in the very short term). For JL-operated flights for which there is no alternative, book on a codeshare number with one of the partnerairlines (endorsable).

.

Check on the T&C of your travel insurance. It's not sure that they will cover events such as these.


+1 always read the fine print. Most travel insurance companies publish a list of suppliers they won't cover in the event of bankruptcy. That is to say, if you purchase a plan after they have added the carrier to the list.



Book codeshares on JL-operated flights. Book with partner airlines instead of with JL immediately.
Book with the competition (e.g. NH) or on flights operated by JL's partner airlines.
Don't book too far in advance. If JL is revived, expect to find very cheap promotional offers. If not, expect to lose your money on any advance bookings.
Book as cheap as possible (e.g. Y instead of J). You can always try to upgrade later. JL's occupancy rates are miserable anyway.
SPEND ANY REMAINING JMB-MILES IMMEDIATELY !!!! DO SO ON JL-PARTNER AIRLINES, INSTEAD OF ON JL ITSELF. Also credit your upcoming JL-miles with one of the partner airlines.
Take up all the status-match offers you can possibly get: you might need them sooner than you would have imagined.
. ... etc.



Typically, if the airline is reorganizing and intends to continue, the FFP miles will remain. It's when the airline goes under and it's assert are split up that you have to worry. If the FFP goes under I would not guarantee your award ticket would still be valid. The operating airline could CXL the ticket for non-payment. The rest of the advice is good. In particular for travel you HAVE to take.