Avis - Avis Car "Accident" & AMEX ... My story

Thought I'd share this story.

I returned a car late June after visiting Denver for a weekend for a friend's wedding. I noticed no damage on the car when I rented it and no damage when it was returned.

The first week of August I got notification in the mail from Avis that the car was damaged when I returned in (apparently a scrape or something on the back bumper). They included a ton of documentation including a bill for the repair bill (they had already repaired the car) and a grainy black and white picture in which, honestly, no damage could be seen.

The total charge came to $436 ... however it included a $50 administrative fee and a $66 "loss of use" fee.

I opened a claim with AMEX (I just have their standard coverage that comes w/ every card). Opening the claim was super easy, and I just faxed everything that Avis sent me to AMEX.

AMEX paid Avis within 1.5 weeks (I was very impressed) - but they only paid Avis $320 ... they did not pay the administrative fee or "loss of use" fee. AMEX claimed the administrative fee was "unexplained" and for the "loss of use" fee, Avis would have to produce a fleet utilization log detailing that they could have rented the car during the time it was out for repair should they have been able to.

I got a notice about 3 weeks ago from Avis that I'm past due on my $436 damage claim. I ignored it then as I thought it would just take time for them to process the AMEX check.

Well, I got another way past due notice for the full $436 yesterday. I called AMEX and they gave me the check number for the $320 they sent Avis as well as the date it was cashed.

I then called Avis ... they claimed that yes, they had received the payment, but their systems don't recognize claims as closed unless they are paid in full. I said, ok - but then why is my past due notice still charging me $436?

The woman at Avis clicked for a few moments and said, "I'm closing out this claim now sir and waiving the remaining $116. Have a good day."

Morals of the story:

Basic AMEX damage coverage that every cardholder gets really does work.

The "administrative fee" Avis tries to charge you is BS and you can get around paying it.

When faced with a "put up or give up" statement regarding fleet utilization (and therefore justifying a car's "lost use fee") Avis will tend to back down.

.... I just thought you all could benefit from my experience.

I guess I'm just surprised that Avis can allege that you damaged the car, even after they checked you back in.

If the damage wasn't evident to the person that checked you in, how can they prove that it didn't happen after you parked the car?

I've seen the way the rental car company employees drive the cars around the airport lots - it wouldn't surprise me if one of them did it, then left you with the bill.

I guess I'm just surprised that Avis can allege that you damaged the car, even after they checked you back in.


I agree. There's no way I'd take responsibilty in those circumstances.

I guess I'm just surprised that Avis can allege that you damaged the car, even after they checked you back in.


I agree. There's no way I'd take responsibilty in those circumstances.

I haven't dug out an old rental agreement to read, but from my recollection from various past threads in the rental car forums all of them reserve the right to audit/inspect and revise the bill after you return the car.

Thanks for the story. A few tidbits of which I was not fully aware and will be helpful if I face such a situation in the future.

Why did it take Avis 5-6 weeks to after the return to even notify the customer?

That really is a scary story (that Aivs can 'claim' you damaged a car a month after you return it).

But I am thrilled with the happy ending. I always put car rentals on my AMEX card. I'm glad to hear it works!

Before I begin, I need to make sure everyone is on the same page. You do not necessarily have to rent with your AMEX to get this coverage. Even some Visa Branded debit cards provide coverage, so check your terms or call your bank.


in my pre avis employee days I rented a car from Hertz and had a similar experience.

I rented a car because my car had been damaged due to road debris. A week after I rented a replacement car to get it fixed, I reversed into a wall causing damage. I was already late for work so i called amex on the way to my work. They informed me that i could not open a case until the car was returned, but they advised me that "in your state, your personal insurance is primary" and told me that They would pay everything, including deductible, of what my personal insurance did not cover. So I checked and they were right, per law, if you have personal insurance, in some states your personal insurance is always primary in the case of rental cars.

so anyway, Three weeks later i returned the car and filed a report, taking responsibility for the damage. I had my personal car insurance estimator look at it first (as it was required) and got an estimate. The damage was below my deductible except for 70 bucks, and per the adjuster "Amex is really good at handling this, we just need to draft a letter saying that the damage listed is coverered to a total of 70 dollars and they will take care of the rest."

Six weeks later, I get a certified letter/bill from hertz for 1700 dollars with a notice that the bill was past due and "collections will be notified within 72 hours of receipt of this letter", 1000 of that was loss of use and admin fee. I sent that bill to my insurance adjuster and CC'ed Amex. Both insurers exploded.

Amex sent them a really nasty letter (my insurance carrier CC'ed, i got a copy from my insurer) which stated, I kid you not, "If you think anyone is going to pay this, your delusional and misguided." It also stated the name of Such and such law firm where the case has been referred to and directed budget to "withdraw from any direct communication with the client on this matter and to forward any future communication to" that firm.

Taking the key from AMEX, My insurance company drafted a similiar letter, a bit nicer, but stated "loss of use cannot be proven as long as 1 car in this given car class was available during the loss period" and demanded full disclosure of records for that location or "We shall seek legal remedy and secure the records through other means."


That was the last time I heard from hertz on the matter, though my insurance carrier did inform me that they never paid a cent on the claim beyond the 70 dollars, though it took several years to resolve fully.

Here is a thread from 2006 where I discuss the merits of LDW vs. AMEX/Personal insurance. Much of it still applies. and it discusses this same story and another one.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/avis/573463-car-insurance.html or this thread which also has a section on it http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/avis/487501-how-much-insurance-does-avis-provide.html


So yes, I have always been a firm believer in the AMEX insurance system, but everyone's situation varies and you should take into account your own personal needs and what you need to protect (a barely working college student vs. a dot com millionaire have different liability needs). and also, the morale if there is one, know the laws of your state regarding insurance, your personal insurance may be primary. for grins I have the entire Avis statement on Liability from their website. EZMONEE Translation in RED



Avis provides liability coverage for its vehicles as required by applicable law. In most instances, this will include coverage for the renter or authorized driver up to the financial responsibility limits of the applicable jurisdiction at no additional charge.If the state requires liability insurance, avis provides the legal minimum.

In some states, the liability coverage provided is excess to any other applicable coverage. This means the renter's personal liability insurance is used first, and the Avis protection will not apply until the renter's or driver's insurance, if any, has been exhausted. self explanatory

Please check the rental agreement or nearest Avis reservation center regarding the applicability of automobile liability coverage to specific locations. You should also check with your own insurance company to determine the level of your protection under their policy.
not all rental policies cover you out of state, even within the same company. I have seen cases where husband on one policy has out of state coverage when wife, same household with separate policy did not have out of state coverage. So check

Exceptions:
CALIFORNIA: Automobile Liability and Property Damage Protection is not included in the rental rate. The customer may provide automobile liability insurance through a personal insurance policy or may purchase Additional Liability Insurance.
MISSOURI: Avis does not provide Automobile Liability Insurance and Property Damage Protection unless the renter/authorized driver does not carry a personal automobile liability insurance policy. In that case, Avis will provide coverage up to the fFnancial Responsibility Limits (FRL) at no additional charge.
NEW YORK: Avis provides liability coverage for its vehicles as required by applicable law. In most instances, this will include coverage for the renter or authorized driver up to the Financial Responsibility Limits of the applicable jurisdiction at no additional charge.

In some states, the liability coverage provided is excess to any other applicable coverage. This means the renter's personal automobile liability insurance is used first, and the Avis protection will not apply until the renter's/authorized driver's insurance, if any, has been exhausted. Please check with the rental agent or nearest Avis reservation center regarding the applicability of automobile liability coverage to specific locations.
TEXAS: Automobile Liability and Property Damage Protection is not included in the rental rate. The customer may provide automobile liability insurance through a personal insurance policy or may purchase Texas Automobile Rental Liability Insurance.
UTAH: Avis does not provide Automobile Liability Insurance and Property Damage Protection unless the renter or authorized driver does not carry a personal automobile liability insurance policy. Inthat case, Avis will provide this coverage up to the Financial Responsibility Limits (FRL) at no additional charge.

Yes - The big moral of this story is how impressed I was with AMEX insurance.

They moved fast, were always good on the phone etc. and I was pleased with how they stood up and got away with not paying silly "loss of use" and "administrative" charges.

I'll rent every car forever with AMEX.

I had a similar story with Amex but it was with a different rental company. I got in an low speed accident last year causing very minor damage to the guy I hit and denting the bumper on the rental. Since I had my personal insurance they took care of the other guy's (barely) damaged bumper. I opened a claim with Amex for the personal insurance deductible. The rental car company took the liberty of billing me $506 since the woman "thought it was in my best interest to not bill it to the insurance company." Meanwhile Amex was calling them, faxing them etc repeatedly but the company wouldn't reply to them. The rental company billed my card for the $506, plus rental charges, for a total of ~$700ish. I immediately opened a dispute with Amex who suspended the charge and kept calling the car rental company. All Amex needed was the fleet log and they'd process the claim. A few weeks later I get this very, very nasty voice mail from the rental company's manager accusing me of "screwing them" out of money and to "pay up or else." I told the adjustor at Amex who laughed and said to ignore them and everything was dependent on their fleet log showing up.

About six months after the accident, I get a letter from Amex saying "we've reversed the charge since the merchant has refused to provide additional information."

Of course, I'll never rent from this particular company at this particular airport again but that incident made me a loyal Amex customer. ^

Before I begin, I need to make sure everyone is on the same page...
ezmonee, an excellent, informative and great post as usual!!! :D

Before I begin, I need to make sure everyone is on the same page. You do not necessarily have to rent with your AMEX to get this coverage. Even some Visa Branded debit cards provide coverage, so check your terms or call your bank.



I think this credit card insurance is an American thing, in Europe we have no such thing, or am I wrong?

I think this credit card insurance is an American thing, in Europe we have no such thing, or am I wrong?It depends.

The AmEx platinum (charge) card issued in the UK has auto insurance.Get used to saying ‘no thanks’ to those costly extras

Loss damage waiver, top-up liability, excess reduction, personal accident insurance benefits. Wondering whether to pay them? Your Platinum Card allows you to politely decline them all as they are already included in your travel insurance benefits. And you won’t even need to worry about paying an excess.

* Drive away with any car you like and your benefits include a maximum replacement value of up to £50,000 from any car rental in the world.

https://www.iplatinum.americanexpress.com/prospect/uk/FrontServlet?request_type=CarRental

I think this credit card insurance is an American thing, in Europe we have no such thing, or am I wrong?

My LH M&M Mastercard covers the mentioned rental car insurance.

Wow, this thread prompted me to call both credit cards that I use and my insurance company to confirm coverage.

Thank you all for the very informative (and detailed) accountings of your claims.

I have been told by an Amex custoemr service rep that the credit card insurance only kicks in if you pay for the entrie rental on your card, which means you cannot use any coupon, including one issued by the car rental company. Can anyone with direct experience in having a claim processed by Amex share if they used a coupon or discount code on the rental?

I have been using my MC ever since Amex told me that using a coupon would invalidate the coverage. -- Suzanne

ezmonee made a very informative and accurate post summarizing the Avis policy. I know a thing or two about insurance policies and can tell you some basic items for any interested:

1. Rental companies are bonded in all states to operate the vehicles. If you have no insurance as you do not own a car, and you cause an accident without purchasing a policy (for third party liability issues), they will pay the state minimum limits and collect from you the amount that was paid. (Or at least they will try) For first party, they will repair and collect from you directly.

Recourse: Pay on your credit card and know what the limits of liability are (stated in the details on your credit card summary). OR you call an insurance company and you tell them you own no car, but you are renting one for three weeks (this is domestic folks, don't open the door oversees, it won't be covered) and you need to purchase a policy. Not all companies offer this, but some do. If your cautious, you can get the policy.

2. The admin fee and loss of use is indeed always on the bill. The admin fee was created to offset the claim adminstrative fee of managing the claim (think of it like your baggage fee with an airline, made up for no good reason). Basically you're paying for them to get the money from you or your insurance company. Technically it is not owed, although most states have no language around this. It comes down to who has the better letter and documentation on why they are not owing (According to statute XXX we do not owe the admin fee). Most companies have a form letter.

Recourse: Don't tackle this on your own, call you credit card or your insurer.

3. Loss of use, from an insurance company perspective, is owed only when the party can prove that while car X was down and not earning revenue, that there was disruption in their business and then owed. The burden of proof is on the rental company to proove that on dates blah through blah we had 74 cars on the lot, 10 of which were in maintanance and the one damaged and the rest rented. It is a RARE occurence that they ever do this and that it's ever paid for that reason. No proof, no pay. But sometimes they do it. I will tell you that for small tow truck companies and other small businesses, be glad that this is something owed, this can ruin a small company that relies on transportation.

4. Some insurance companies manage this whole process for you if you have an auto policy, some don't. I won't point fingers, but if this happens to you, you draft a letter (it will end up being several) or email and you basically pursue the same processes above. Prove it: Show me the records for loss of use only; don't bother with the admin fee. If you were working on business, and are not self employed, call your employer and ask for their business auto policy. They may be primary (which could be an option if the rental was for work).

5. What is out of an insurance companies control and what happens often when they've denied the claim or you've said go kiss off, is one of two course of action: sue you directly (expensive and requires in person representation) in small claims or superior court; or to send off your claim to a collections agency. This option is nasty for insurance companies because they are not a first party and it's free to the rental company. The collections group keeps 1/3 of anything they get, that's why their so persistent and then it ends up on your credit report.

Your recourse is then to send to the tri-credit reporting group your letters and proof you sent and then ask they remove this from your credit which they most often do. But an insurance company can't do this (since it's your credit).

Long story short:

Know your coverage.

If you don't own a car, then consider buying a short term policy in the US (worthless if you're renting for less than two weeks IMHO, just get the LDW and/or the first party coverage)

Know your recourse through work, your own policy or your credit card.

Don't get bullied, know your rights as a consumer. (Jurisdictions vary, so that is a whole other matter and I won't even go there)

Thanks for this useful thread. I'm wondering if anyone can provide advice of whether there is a huge difference between the two scenarios I generally use when renting.

My husband and I live in Denmark, so our personal cars are insured here, and I assume we aren't covered for rentals. We travel to the U.S. 2-3 times per year (pleasure trips), and rent from Avis for 3-4 weeks each trip.

We have UK-issued AmEx Platinum IDC cards, which cover both LDW and ALI. However, when reserving via the Avis.dk website, they sometimes offer an all-inclusive rate (with both LDW and ALI) that is about the same as the rate without any insurance, or sometimes less. It varies widely, however, and sometimes is much higher than the base rate with no insurance.

Usually I will book whichever rate is lower, i.e. if the rate without any insurance is significantly lower, then I decline the Avis insurance and rely on my AmEx Platinum. However, if the all-inclusive rate is similar or lower, I book that, so we're covered by Avis LDW and ALI.

For some reason, I always feel more secure and better protected by taking the Avis insurance because I assume there would be less hassle should something happen.

Is this accurate, or a false sense of security?

For our next trip, I've just checked rates and, right now, it would be about $600 cheaper to rent without the ALI/LDW for our three week trip, so I'm tempted to decline insurance and rely on AmEx Platinum (again, UK-issued IDC). But part of me likes the security of the direct Avis insurance.

Any thoughts or advice as to which is better? Or are they about the same, so I should continue to go with whatever is cheaper?

Thanks,
Susan

We have UK-issued AmEx Platinum IDC cards, which cover both LDW and ALI. However, when reserving via the Avis.dk website, they sometimes offer an all-inclusive rate (with both LDW and ALI) that is about the same as the rate without any insurance, or sometimes less. It varies widely, however, and sometimes is much higher than the base rate with no insurance.

For some reason, I always feel more secure and better protected by taking the Avis insurance because I assume there would be less hassle should something happen.

For our next trip, I've just checked rates and, right now, it would be about $600 cheaper to rent without the ALI/LDW for our three week trip, so I'm tempted to decline insurance and rely on AmEx Platinum (again, UK-issued IDC). But part of me likes the security of the direct Avis insurance.



Personally, I would go with whichever is cheaper, although I would also tend to agree that in the event of problems, the Avis coverage would probably be a bit smoother. Without the Avis coverage, if you damage one of their cars, they will probably try to charge you loss of use and administrative fees. Amex won't pay loss of use unless Avis can show fleet utilization logs that prove not having that car available to rent actually cost Avis income. Avis won't want to provide that, and there will be some back and forth until Avis either gives up, or they come after you for the money that Amex won't pay.

sounds like your plan is just fine. dont worry bout it, seems like you got control of it. By far, the most stress free method is the ALI LDW included in the price. remember LDW is "loss damage waiver" its not insurance. by the very nature it basically says "if you dent the car, we dont care." as long as you didnt get that rate through shady means, its a slam dunk.

so if it all possible lean to the LDW esp if the price is a pittance apart from the non insured price.




Thanks for this useful thread. I'm wondering if anyone can provide advice of whether there is a huge difference between the two scenarios I generally use when renting.

My husband and I live in Denmark, so our personal cars are insured here, and I assume we aren't covered for rentals. We travel to the U.S. 2-3 times per year (pleasure trips), and rent from Avis for 3-4 weeks each trip.

We have UK-issued AmEx Platinum IDC cards, which cover both LDW and ALI. However, when reserving via the Avis.dk website, they sometimes offer an all-inclusive rate (with both LDW and ALI) that is about the same as the rate without any insurance, or sometimes less. It varies widely, however, and sometimes is much higher than the base rate with no insurance.

Usually I will book whichever rate is lower, i.e. if the rate without any insurance is significantly lower, then I decline the Avis insurance and rely on my AmEx Platinum. However, if the all-inclusive rate is similar or lower, I book that, so we're covered by Avis LDW and ALI.

For some reason, I always feel more secure and better protected by taking the Avis insurance because I assume there would be less hassle should something happen.

Is this accurate, or a false sense of security?

For our next trip, I've just checked rates and, right now, it would be about $600 cheaper to rent without the ALI/LDW for our three week trip, so I'm tempted to decline insurance and rely on AmEx Platinum (again, UK-issued IDC). But part of me likes the security of the direct Avis insurance.

Any thoughts or advice as to which is better? Or are they about the same, so I should continue to go with whatever is cheaper?

Thanks,
Susan

^^^to amex


I would never accept such claim from avis:td::td::td:

I rented a car (not from Avis) using a business VISA that provided insurance. I was driving the car in the rain on the interstate and a piece of lumber fell off a truck in front of me. I couldn't swerve or I would have wrecked due to the wet road, so I hit it with the front wheel, which caused it to spin around and puncture the sidewall of the rear tire. I changed the tire on the side of the road (in the rain) and there was no other damage.

I called and made an insurance claim figuring I would be charged for the tire, I even went to Sears and considered having a new one installed but it was $258. When I returned the car, the lady was so stunned that I changed the tire myself without calling roadside help they gave me a $50 gift card and didn't charge me for the tire.