http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=10512

Interesting... that they are trying piggyback on their Air Deccan relationship. I hope they succeed. If they start flying, their first route may be BLR-SFO. But I doubt there is enough traffic for a daily flight on Airbus 340, may be combined with HYD (via BLR) and/or MAA (via BLR), it is possible. Contrary to popular belief, there are not that many passengers who travel from BLR to SFO or vice versa.

Interesting... that they are trying piggyback on their Air Deccan relationship. I hope they succeed. If they start flying, their first route may be BLR-SFO. But I doubt there is enough traffic for a daily flight on Airbus 340, may be combined with HYD (via BLR) and/or MAA (via BLR), it is possible. Contrary to popular belief, there are not that many passengers who travel from BLR to SFO or vice versa.I would refute that argument - I think that there would be a very good amount of traffic - and that is why Jet (9w) is thinking/planning of BLR-PVG-SFO...

...
Contrary to popular belief, there are not that many passengers who travel from BLR to SFO or vice versa.

hyho61, What is your source of data for BLR-SFO being a thin route. Reports by country managers of LH and BA in the past seemed to indicate that a good amount of traffic they're carrying out of BLR seems to be BLR-SFO. There also seems to be a lot of pacific routing TG, CX (via BKK/SIN) and SQ on the BLR-SFO route.

A competitively priced BLR-SFO seems to me would have fairly high load factors. The pricing and marketing strategy is important. AI seems to be struggling with BOM-NYC while DL and CO don't seem to have problems. I think KF (using Deccan rights or under Deccan brand) should be able to build this non-stop route pretty quickly as long as they don't target super high fare premiums.

I would refute that argument - I think that there would be a very good amount of traffic - and that is why Jet (9w) is thinking/planning of BLR-PVG-SFO...

My understanding from latest press reports is that Naresh Goyal is talking about 9W flying BOM-PVG-SFO now instead of BLR-PVG-SFO. The projected launch date is Feb 2008. This may be because the new BLR airport will be truly ready only in April (technically late March) or because they feel BOM-PVG is a better option than BLR-PVG.

I still am not clear if Indian carriers have the rights to carry pax on PVG-SFO. Naresh Goyal seems to be imply that but I'll wait for authoritative voices on this board (such as Sean) to weigh in.

they will have rights to carry PVG-SFO traffic as per the India-China Bilateral (5th freedom on 14 weekly frequencies on the way to or beyond China)

Kingfisher plans to start services to LHR during the summer.

IT 021/022 (eff. 01JUN08)
BOM dep 1300 LHR arr 1830 dep 2100 BOM arr 1030+1

IT 031/032 (eff. 01AUG08)
BLR dep 0645 LHR arr 1300 dep 1500 BLR arr 0515+1

All flights planned to operate with 217-seat A330-200s.

Whether this will actually come about though......

Kingfisher plans to start services to LHR during the summer.

IT 021/022 (eff. 01JUN08)
BOM dep 1300 LHR arr 1830 dep 2100 BOM arr 1030+1


Why on earth do we need another BOM-LHR service? (with almost/no connections to the US)

Does IT really hope to grab a big share of BA's premium customers flying to the UK? That's the only play I can think of that actually makes sense.


Whether this will actually come about though......

I'm guessing not, at least with these timings. At a minimum, they should synchronize timings so they can scissor/rotate planes.

Why on earth do we need another BOM-LHR service? (with almost/no connections to the US)

I think they will do what they have done on domestic routes in India - onward connections, NW and/or DL.

I think they will do what they have done on domestic routes in India - onward connections, NW and/or DL.
Would be nice if Kingfisher joins the skyteam alliance as well..

Would be nice if Kingfisher joins the skyteam alliance as well..
If I were to speculate, this is very likely to happen. With Air Sahara becoming JetLite, Jet Airways is likely to join One World. Air India, now Indian has long been rumoured to go with Star Alliance. It's unlikley that among, Air India/Indian, Jet Airways and Kingfisher, two will join the same alliance. Indian market will be neatly divided among the three alliances.

Whether this will actually come about though.......

I'm guessing not,

MoCA has given in principal approval for Air-Deccan application to fly abroad and have also informed IT that if they take majority stake in Air-Deccan they can fly abroad with DN certificate.!

So probably some short haul international operations might start from IATA Summer 08!

Why on earth do we need another BOM-LHR service? (with almost/no connections to the US)

Does IT really hope to grab a big share of BA's premium customers flying to the UK? That's the only play I can think of that actually makes sense.



I'm guessing not, at least with these timings. At a minimum, they should synchronize timings so they can scissor/rotate planes.

There are loads of Indians that live in the UK. Onward connections are irrelavant at the London end, where they will simply milk the market. BA hasn't suffered from Jets appearance in London, nor Air Sahara, nor Air India since they've all considerable expanded in the UK-India market. BA have expanded considerably in India recently, & is now there 3rd largest country in terms of revenue. The connections in Bombay are going to be critical for IT, as that is where they're going to fight it out with 9W etc.

Also, if they weren't going to fly to London as there first international, where would they go. Jump straight in at the deepend in the USA??

This is great news. I can't wait to see the onboard product.

I think there is big scope for huge increase in flights to India. For decades journey to/from India was based on bilateral flying rights. Since Air-India never went full, once the foreign airlines were full people had not choice but to fly Air-India. That worked fine until after 1991 when the Indian economy opened up and India was loosing business because IT workers could not fly out. Then came liberalization, which is still no where on the lines of the UK-US deregulated sector. Consequently load factors from/to India are high. Thus most airlines can charge higher amounts thus adding to the cost of doing business in India. Opening up the sector will provide more choices and improve competition and bring down cost of travel leading to increased tourism. In the past, I have cancelled my trips to India and chosen to vacation in other parts of the world due to being wait-listed in the India sector. That is Australia - Singapore no problem, but not Singapore - India. Similarly US-Europe no problem, but wait listed for economy fare from Europe to India or more commonly outward bound from India.

It would be great to see more private airlines from India flying international. It will bring much needed competition to this sector which for years has been the cash cow for foreign airlines. Qantas is having a similar monopoly on the US sector, where it has for years prevented SIA picking up Australian passengers onwards to US west coast.


There are loads of Indians that live in the UK. Onward connections are irrelavant at the London end, where they will simply milk the market. BA hasn't suffered from Jets appearance in London, nor Air Sahara, nor Air India since they've all considerable expanded in the UK-India market. BA have expanded considerably in India recently, & is now there 3rd largest country in terms of revenue. The connections in Bombay are going to be critical for IT, as that is where they're going to fight it out with 9W etc.

Also, if they weren't going to fly to London as there first international, where would they go. Jump straight in at the deepend in the USA??

This is great news. I can't wait to see the onboard product.

MoCA has given in principal approval for Air-Deccan application to fly abroad and have also informed IT that if they take majority stake in Air-Deccan they can fly abroad with DN certificate.!

So probably some short haul international operations might start from IATA Summer 08!

So would they fly the plane painted as Air Deccan but offer IT onboard product since the operating cert is DN?

So would they fly the plane painted as Air Deccan but offer IT onboard product since the operating cert is DN?Kingfisher will be taking a majority stake in Air Deccan next year, and then rename the company to Kingfisher, so then they can fly as Kingfisher when "Air Deccan" gets the operating rights...

So would they fly the plane painted as Air Deccan but offer IT onboard product since the operating cert is DN?
As both companies are merging into one single entity, they are planning on retaining brand Kingfisher Airlines but company will be Deccan!

In its application to US-DOT, Deccan has requested to operate the service as d/b/a Kingfisher Airlines with 'IT' code and flight numbers to be used on them. Kingfisher in turn will dry lease the aircrafts to Deccan.

When do Kingfisher take delivery of their first widebody? When do they get their first A340-500?

When do they get their first A340-500?

The first A340-500 is rumored to be delivered in April 08. They are recruiting heavily for A330/A340 crew. Whether they actually start flying in IT (or DN) colors - or be leased out to other airlines will depend on whether they get Indian govt approval by then.

Kingfisher plans to start services to LHR during the summer.

IT 021/022 (eff. 01JUN08)
BOM dep 1300 LHR arr 1830 dep 2100 BOM arr 1030+1

IT 031/032 (eff. 01AUG08)
BLR dep 0645 LHR arr 1300 dep 1500 BLR arr 0515+1


Why on earth do we need another BOM-LHR service? (with almost/no connections to the US)
...
At a minimum, they should synchronize timings so they can scissor/rotate planes.


With slots at LHR being scarce, I think that IT pretty much has to take what they can get if they want to fly there. I also agree that they can focus on the connections on the Indian side rather than the London side and probably do OK on the route.

IT 021/022 (eff. 01JUN08)
BOM dep 1300 LHR arr 1830 dep 2100 BOM arr 1030+1

IT 031/032 (eff. 01AUG08)
BLR dep 0645 LHR arr 1300 dep 1500 BLR arr 0515+1

Hell yeah, people would kill to find daytime arrivals to India instead of close to 2 AM.

IT 021/022 (eff. 01JUN08)
BOM dep 1300 LHR arr 1830 dep 2100 BOM arr 1030+1

IT 031/032 (eff. 01AUG08)
BLR dep 0645 LHR arr 1300 dep 1500 BLR arr 0515+1

Hell yeah, people would kill to find daytime arrivals to India instead of close to 2 AM.

I presume you mean the BLR flight times? They are timed like that for the convenience at the LHR end. What's happening around that time? Dozens of longhauls are departing to/arriving from the United States & Canada, which is a huge market for indians. LHR as the best connections to the USA from Europe. The LHR slot times are purrfect from ITs point of view, although it does have the flip side of having early morning departures & arrivals in Bangalore. BA has similar schedules to BLR, for precisely those reasons. A later overnight would surely make sense from an O&D passengers perspective like the BOM schedules.

The IT slots are very nicely timed & a very lucky asset. Does anyone know where they're frrom?

Would be nice if Kingfisher joins the skyteam alliance as well..

High hopes for that...at least and thankfully it is not going to be AI :D

Both BLR and LHR.

Daytime arrival in India is a godsend for any flight at all.. it allows IT to connect pax to other cities on their domestic network, it ensures that pax arrive at an airport when it is not crowded with planes .. oh, and it ensures that the cabbies don't stiff you with exorbitant rates just because it is night time.

Any idea if and when they'd start nonstops BOM-EWR/JFK? That's what I'm looking for. If they did, it would force some serious competition on 9W's 1-stop same route.

Any idea if and when they'd start nonstops BOM-EWR/JFK? That's what I'm looking for. If they did, it would force some serious competition on 9W's 1-stop same route.

9W can fill there one stop. Air India can't fill there non-stop - 30% loads in Y. Sure, you can pretty much guarentee 3 seats to lie across...but it says a lot. The scissor head operation allows lots of destinations in India to be connected to lots of destinations in North America. If they were all non-stops, it would be ridiculous. The brussels scissorhead operation is currently being copied by AI in MUC. IT currently plan to take advantage of the O&D market on BLR-SFO route first followed by BLR-JFK, both non-stops. I'd imagine after that they'd add a European scissorhead operation. I'm hoping for Manchester, UK!:D

Kingfisher has decided NOT to proceed with its international operations at present and will instead be leasing the 4 Airbus widebodies due for delivery in 2008 to Air India.

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Kingfisher-to-wet-lease-4-new-Airbus-to-Air-India/260551/

Kingfisher has decided NOT to proceed with its international operations at present and will instead be leasing the 4 Airbus widebodies due for delivery in 2008 to Air India.

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Kingfisher-to-wet-lease-4-new-Airbus-to-Air-India/260551/

Thanks for the heads up. Will International expansion start in August then? Are the 4 Airbuses 2x A330-200s & 2x A340-500s? Where will AI use them? Will someone babysit the Heathrow slots or will they be lost & IT will have to start the whole process again? Given those fleet numbers, initial routes to be launched in August will be; BOM-LHR, BLR-LHR, BLR-SFO. BLR-JFK was planned as the second US destination.

Thanks for the heads up. Will International expansion start in August then? Are the 4 Airbuses 2x A330-200s & 2x A340-500s? Where will AI use them? Will someone babysit the Heathrow slots or will they be lost & IT will have to start the whole process again? Given those fleet numbers, initial routes to be launched in August will be; BOM-LHR, BLR-LHR, BLR-SFO. BLR-JFK was planned as the second US destination.Is it possible that they ordered more than those 4 aircraft, so they could carry out their other international ops??

I shudder to think how the condition of the aircraft would be once they get back in the hands of IT! (especially the bathrooms! ;) )

I shudder to think how the condition of the aircraft would be once they get back in the hands of IT! (especially the bathrooms! ;) )

Nothing what a quick A check can fix. I've been on aircraft that have been dry-leased to many exotic airlines before and you wouldn't know the difference.

Question is how will AI deal with a Airbus widebody fleet and no crew trained to that type? The last time this happened was when 9W had 343s on hand but no rights to fly. AFAIR AI wet-leased at the time, which gave 9W a good opportunity to fine tune their operations.

The last time this happened was when 9W had 343s on hand but no rights to fly. AFAIR AI wet-leased at the time, which gave 9W a good opportunity to fine tune their operations.Were the aircraft and FA's in 9w livery? Would have been interesting to see/experience that! ;)

Is it possible that they ordered more than those 4 aircraft, so they could carry out their other international ops??

I shudder to think how the condition of the aircraft would be once they get back in the hands of IT! (especially the bathrooms! ;) )

Nothing what a quick A check can fix. I've been on aircraft that have been dry-leased to many exotic airlines before and you wouldn't know the difference.

Question is how will AI deal with a Airbus widebody fleet and no crew trained to that type? The last time this happened was when 9W had 343s on hand but no rights to fly. AFAIR AI wet-leased at the time, which gave 9W a good opportunity to fine tune their operations.

Yes, they order more than 5 aircraft (They've got A330s, A340-500s, A350s & A380s coming) but there all due way after August.

The IT aircraft will be wet-leased to Air India (i.e plane & crew) so all Air India have to do is schedule them in.

Kingfisher has decided NOT to proceed with its international operations at present and will instead be leasing the 4 Airbus widebodies due for delivery in 2008 to Air India.

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Kingfisher-to-wet-lease-4-new-Airbus-to-Air-India/260551/

I had heard that was in the works but it came along with a stray mention about Kingfisher joining Star Alliance -- I don't know if that stray mention about Kingfisher and Star Alliance was a confusion with Air India (joining Star Alliance) or if the mention was a slip of the tongue.

I had thought that Kingfisher was more likely to go another way. :o

Kingfisher has decided NOT to proceed with its international operations at present and will instead be leasing the 4 Airbus widebodies due for delivery in 2008 to Air India.

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Kingfisher-to-wet-lease-4-new-Airbus-to-Air-India/260551/

Interesting, because it appears they've exercised their 5 A380 options bringing their total to 10.

http://www.livemint.com/2008/01/13235805/Kingfisher-doubles-A380-orders.html

Now that I have secured all necessary clearances for flying overseas, I am planning to convert the options to confirmed orders,” said Vijay Mallya, chairman and CEO of Kingfisher Airlines. “We will be operating all non-stop flights to international destinations

Interesting, because it appears they've exercised their 5 A380 options bringing their total to 10.Maybe he wants to offload them onto AI as well! :D ;)

Imagine the overbooking situation then!! :eek:

I'm sure IT traded the A340/330 production slots for favors in the industry and pushed back the launch schedule for intl ops. As far as the A380 is concerned the IT birds are not going to be delivered anytime soon with the severe backup of the production line...

As far as the A380 is concerned the IT birds are not going to be delivered anytime soon with the severe backup of the production line...

That was the other interesting bit from the article I linked
Kingfisher has asked Airbus to advance delivery of the five confirmed A380s. Scheduled for 2011-12, the domestic carrier has asked the plane maker to have it ready by end-2009

Kingfisher Airlines Chairman and CEO Vijay Mallya told Mint business daily that the airline, likely through its acquisition of Air Deccan, has "secured all necessary clearances for flying overseas" and that as a result it will convert its five A380 options to firm orders. Kingfisher already has five A380s on order. "We will be operating all nonstop flights to international destinations," Mallya told the paper. Indo Asian News Service quoted him as saying that the first long-haul flight will operate Aug. 15 between Bangalore and San Francisco, with service to New York JFK launching soon thereafter.

"secured all necessary clearances for flying overseas"... Does it mean Mallya has gotten the clearance from Civil Aviation Authority of India? Anyone know the status of his application with FAA?

I'm sure IT traded the A340/330 production slots for favors in the industry and pushed back the launch schedule for intl ops. As far as the A380 is concerned the IT birds are not going to be delivered anytime soon with the severe backup of the production line...

No IT has not traded production slots.. here is the brand new IT A332 without engines in TLS France....

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/IMG_2725.jpg

So in another month or so this aircraft will be ready for operations...

"secured all necessary clearances for flying overseas"... Does it mean Mallya has gotten the clearance from Civil Aviation Authority of India?
Yes, from August they can start flying international..


Anyone know the status of his application with FAA?
Still Pending....

No IT has not traded production slots.. here is the brand new IT A332 without engines in TLS France....

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/IMG_2725.jpg"

So in another month or so this aircraft will be ready for operations...

Thats one of the four aircraft due to be put into work with AI.

i hope they are looking for a operation in Maldives.....

With fuel prices where they are, where does that leave BLR-SFO $$ wise? With TG canning BKK-NYC, ULH's are feeling the pinch. Also, I am not sure how much J traffic is between BLR and SFO since several valley co's like Google don't even pay for that.

...since several valley co's like Google don't even pay for that.I've seen some guys from Google (with emblem jackets, also denoting the division they worked for) in J on LH - don't know if they were op-ups or upgrades...

Just found this piece of information coming from Flightmapping.com

Any idea of any route ?

BLR-LHR would be fantastic !!!

Kingfisher is set start flights to India from the UK later this summer.
The Indian domestic airline, which is owned by the same company that makes Kingfisher lager, has obtained two slots at Heathrow and is believed to be lining up a second pair of slots from Dutch airline KLM. The Bangalore-based carrier was launched in 2005 and currently flies to 38 destinations in India.
Kingfisher chairman, Vijay Mallya, said flights to the UK will take off by the first week of September. He is not concerned about the high price of oil, adding: "A sound India - UK service is something that has good potential."
Kingfisher is one of only six airlines to have been awarded five stars by airline rating company Skytrax.

According to the Dutch aviation forum scramble.nl, Kingfisher has requested slots at MXP, AMS, MAD and LHR.

According to the Dutch aviation forum scramble.nl, Kingfisher has requested slots at MXP, AMS, MAD and LHR.

Now the question is to know where from ?

I can only hope for BLR, that would be a good alternative to BA ...:p

Yes, from Bangalore.
(Small remark: BA subsidary OpenSkies has also requested slots to fly AMS-JFK.)

According to the Dutch aviation news website Luchtvaartnieuws.nl , kingfisher is working on a partnership with the KLM.

A spokesperson for KLM said that KLM/Air France is talking with Kingfisher about developing the existing cooperation. At this time, KLM passengers that arrive in India has the possibility to transfer to Kingfisher flights.

Kingfisher might be joining SkyTeam, the alliance which includes Air France-KLM. SkyTeam has repeatedly said that the an Indian partner is more than welcome. A bilateral agreement between KLM and Kingfisher in the run-up to joining SkyTeam would be a possiblity.
Source: http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=27024