In today's Today in the Sky on usatoday.com, there is a blurb that talks about more unrest between the two sets of pilot unions. Can somebody explain how they currently plan to assign seniority? The new union want to do by date of hire (no matter which airline) which seems the most logical.

ALPA (the existing union for both sides) has a merger policy. It's goals, in no particular order:

Preserve jobs.
Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.

Once the two sides "agree" on their pre-merger seniority lists, they trade them. They then negotiate. If an agreement is not reached (and in this case, it was not), it goes before an arbitration panel made up of two pilot neutrals and a professional arbitrator (George Nicolau, in this case).

HP wanted to ratio people at a rate that was extremely detrimental to the US pilots. The US pilots wanted Date of Hire. Date of Hire would have resulted, among other things:

1. As soon as a US-East pilot hit a recall in many cases, he'd jump over 2/3rds of the HP list.

2. In the event of a furlough, it's entirely possible that a US pilot who has spent more time on furlough than he has flying for the airline could have been recalled and kept his job, while an HP pilot who brought a job to the merger would have been furloughed.

And so forth.

The HP "wish-list" was closer to what we will call "relative seniority"--if you were a widebody captain before the merger, you stay a widebody captain after. If you were a 737/320 captain who was in turn around %60 of the way down from the top of the 727/320 captain list, that's where you would end up after the merger (roughly %60 way down that particular equipment list). You then staple the furloughs to the bottom of the list, since they did not actually bring a job to the merger.

A date of hire merger with the US pilots would be insane and grossly unfair to the HP pilots. US had pilots on furlough at the time of the merger, who would have recalled into the captain's chair almost immediately upon recall.

The arbitrated award was somewhere in between, probably favoring (ever so slightly) the HP pilots. The US pilots have filed lawsuits and such, demonstrated at ALPA headquarters, have refused to participate in joint contract negotiations, and basically are on the cusp of having their side of the house put into receivership by ALPA national.

In addition, there is a cadre of US pilots who think that by decertifying ALPA, they can use their superior numbers to jam a new union down the HP pilots' throats and subsequently staple (by way of a date of hire methodology) the HP pilots to the bottom of the list.

Their (the USAPA people) theory is flawed in many ways: a successor union is bound by all bargaining agreements and contracts of the former union. In this case, that includes a transition agreement which specifically states that "ALPA merger policy" will govern the seniority integration, and now a certified, arbitrated list. That transition agreement also states that both pilot groups have to ratify any joint contract and that any seniority integration will not take place until that happens (which means that even if the US pilots tried this move to end-run the arbitration that they agreed to, nothing happens until the HP pilots vote on a joint agreement).

USAPA is the East pilots trying to grasp at straws. Instead of negotiating something, they took the seniority integration to arbitration and "lost." Now they are seeking a mulligan.

Date of hire, BTW, when one airline had no pilots hired for 10 years, as many pilots on furlough as on the active roles, and 2 Chapter 11 trips in 5 years, is a complete non-starter. The other parties pilots are almost always going to be junior in date of hire to the US pilots, but the other parties pilots did not work for a carrier with 10+ years of zero growth and furloughs of the magnitude that US had.

In today's Today in the Sky on usatoday.com, there is a blurb that talks about more unrest between the two sets of pilot unions. Can somebody explain how they currently plan to assign seniority? The new union want to do by date of hire (no matter which airline) which seems the most logical.

there is no "new union", at least not as yet. both sets of pilots, HP and old-US, continue to be represented by the same national union, ALPA.

ALPA, for over a decade, has had in place a merger policy to be followed in the event of any merger between two ALPA-represented airlines. This policy takes into account a set of specified criteria:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations

The existing policy explicitly replaced the previous policy based solely on date of hire (such policies are not uncommon; AFA, the flight attendants union, retains a strict date-of-hire policy). Under the current policy, the two ALPA groups were supposed to submit to the judgment of an ALPA arbitrator. You can look up the exact details of his ruling, but essentially he put a bloc of US-East pilots (about 10%, the senior international ones) at the top of the merged list, and after that specified an interlacing of the two airlines' seniority lists to make one merged list, rather than a strict date-of-hire method that would put East pilots nearer the top, on average.

A substantial number of East pilots (much of the remaining 90%) are dissatisfied with the ALPA arbitration ruling, so much so that some have proposed de-certifying ALPA and instead forming their own new union. If they were to be successful in doing so, then they believe they could undo the arbitrated method. It seems dubious they could succeed in that.

I wish doug could raise that certain finger and tell the US east pilots to F off and hit the road.

If it wasnt for HP they'd all be bagging groceries at the local A&P or flying for some fly by night in the Middle East, Africa or Asia.

There are hundreds if not thousands of pilots that would jump at the chance to fly for the new US even knowing they'd be the lowest on the list.

its just a fact. TWA would have disappeared if not for AA, and unfortunately most ex-TWA employees lost their jobs when AA downsized. they would have lost them anyway had AA not taken over.

I just dont see how these piloits think they deserve anything. quit crying, agree to the deal, help the team build a great airline, then ask for more money and better seniority. an old boss of mine managed this way, and today, I do the same. he always said, "you get rewarded for what you've done, not for what your going to do." it was also a great way for him to promote you without giving you a raise;)

I wish doug could raise that certain finger and tell the US east pilots to F off and hit the road.

If it wasnt for HP they'd all be bagging groceries at the local A&P or flying for some fly by night in the Middle East, Africa or Asia.

There are hundreds if not thousands of pilots that would jump at the chance to fly for the new US even knowing they'd be the lowest on the list.

its just a fact. TWA would have disappeared if not for AA, and unfortunately most ex-TWA employees lost their jobs when AA downsized. they would have lost them anyway had AA not taken over.

I just dont see how these piloits think they deserve anything. quit crying, agree to the deal, help the team build a great airline, then ask for more money and better seniority. an old boss of mine managed this way, and today, I do the same. he always said, "you get rewarded for what you've done, not for what your going to do." it was also a great way for him to promote you without giving you a raise;)


Agree with the "quit whinning" part especially when folks believe everyone else owe them something just for showing up. IMHO, this is not just about US pilots but the malaise that's plaquing the entire nation.

However, I won't be so quick to say HP is the clear cut savior of US in general. HP had its own issues and both parties got something out of the buy-out.

I did overhear a guy at DFW a couple of weeks back who was talking to another pax as we waiting for our aircraft to hop from gate to gate trying to find a place to park (don't ask). He sounded really upset with the US pilots calling them unreasonable cry babies. Apparently he was a vendor with both and had full "inside visibility" before, during and after the merger. Apparently a lot of US ground (not GA/FA/TA) crew and pilots were very unprofessional and some were way out of line (I distinctly heard "spit at ..... when he visited"). Yeah, just an overheard conversation but if it were even 1/4 true, shame on those cry babies.

The existing policy explicitly replaced the previous policy based solely on date of hire (such policies are not uncommon; AFA, the flight attendants union, retains a strict date-of-hire policy).
Just a small correction......

The previous incarnation of ALPA's merger policy merely stated a preference for date of hire, but not to the exclusion of the same 5 factors contained in the current policy.

Jim

However, a real potential complicating factor is Parker’s penchant for acquisitions/mergers. For example, if US and UA were to merge, the entire date of hire seniority issue would almost certainly have to be re-visited.

Personally, I think unions have long since passed their minuscule usefulness especially with regard to professional groups such as pilots. Let the free-market and normal business practices determine the best solution for integrating two groups like nearly all of the rest of society does.

Just a small correction......

The previous incarnation of ALPA's merger policy merely stated a preference for date of hire, but not to the exclusion of the same 5 factors contained in the current policy.

Jim

thanks for clarifying. My understanding is that the old policy was changed because other ALPA carriers were deathly afraid of being merged with a weak TWA full of long-serving pilots. Ironically TWA's assets were eventually bought out of court by a non-ALPA carrier and APA stapled them to the bottom of their list.

I wish doug could raise that certain finger and tell the US east pilots to F off and hit the road.

If it wasnt for HP they'd all be bagging groceries at the local A&P or flying for some fly by night in the Middle East, Africa or Asia.

That's not quite true. HP did not bail out US at all. HP did not acquire US. HP did not buy US. Some crafty financing was raised and an entirely new company created. Multiple investors bought into the "new" airline that was predicated on potential(and over-promised) strengths of both companies.

The TWA-AA deal, on the other hand, was an outright buyout.

I wish doug could raise that certain finger and tell the US east pilots to F off and hit the road.

If it wasnt for HP they'd all be bagging groceries at the local A&P or flying for some fly by night in the Middle East, Africa or Asia.

There are hundreds if not thousands of pilots that would jump at the chance to fly for the new US even knowing they'd be the lowest on the list.

its just a fact. TWA would have disappeared if not for AA, and unfortunately most ex-TWA employees lost their jobs when AA downsized. they would have lost them anyway had AA not taken over.

I just dont see how these piloits think they deserve anything. quit crying, agree to the deal, help the team build a great airline, then ask for more money and better seniority. an old boss of mine managed this way, and today, I do the same. he always said, "you get rewarded for what you've done, not for what your going to do." it was also a great way for him to promote you without giving you a raise;)

First of all...learn how to spell please...and Doug shouldn't really tell them to f off...he already DID by closing the PIT base...Screwing the US Easties way of life up with all the junior assigning and displacements into BOS/CLT/DCA/LGA/PHL that's about to come in the next three to four months.

Then w/ the contractual talks...I am personally in favor of US East getting what we want, after all if HP did not merge with US they would have been out of a Just Over Broke...

With the US/HP merger...pay parity was increased w/ the contractual negotiations between all employees and their respective unions except of course for Flight Attendants & the Pilots...

Personally I would tell the ALPA to go f themselves for ruining the TWA and effecting the airline industry to it's current state of condition pilot wise...USAPA is not any better BUT USAPA LISTENS to it's dues paying membership whereas ALPA does not.

However, a real potential complicating factor is Parker’s penchant for acquisitions/mergers. For example, if US and UA were to merge, the entire date of hire seniority issue would almost certainly have to be re-visited.

Personally, I think unions have long since passed their minuscule usefulness especially with regard to professional groups such as pilots. Let the free-market and normal business practices determine the best solution for integrating two groups like nearly all of the rest of society does.

100% Agree.

USAPA is not any better BUT USAPA LISTENS to it's dues paying membership whereas ALPA does not.

Interesting factoid:

If one is a US East ALPA member, with or without signing an authorization card, one can get access to the "private" portions of the USAPA web site.

If one is a West ALPA member, even signing a card does not permit access to the USAPA private web site.

Do tell how that jives with listening to it's membership?

USAPA is a poorly thought attempt to circumnavigate the seniority award and jam a Date of Hire integration down the HP pilots' collective throat. That the law won't allow that to happen does not seem to deter the east pilots.

It won't happen. The East pilots are either going to have to move off the DOH horse, or they will be stuck at their current rates of pay until hades begets snowballs. Trying the "decertify the union and abuse the bully majority" won't work, because the next union gets all the CBA bits, which include ratification provisions for any joint agreement that requires the West guys to buy in, but, more damning, outlines that ALPA merger policy will be used to get 'er done.

This kind of crap is why, after one union job, I'll never hold another.

That's not quite true. HP did not bail out US at all. HP did not acquire US. HP did not buy US. Some crafty financing was raised and an entirely new company created. Multiple investors bought into the "new" airline that was predicated on potential(and over-promised) strengths of both companies.

The TWA-AA deal, on the other hand, was an outright buyout.

correct, but the merger, or whatever we call it, was clearly initiated by HP. I realize new financing was awarded to create the new US, but regardless, had HP not made a move, the old US would most certainly be gone and unfortunately HP would probably not be far from it.

Dlen111,

From what I remember I thought US was looking for a merger partner and HP stepped up to the plate since HP was heading to Ch11 as well.

People seem to forget this benifited BOTH companies. If HP and US did not merge both probably would have gone CH7.

Let the free-market and normal business practices determine the best solution for integrating two groups like nearly all of the rest of society does.

EXACTLY! As a shareholder and consumer of US services, I don't give a crap about who was hired when or for what company. I want the most skilled and best trained pilot in the front of my flights.

In my opinion unions could be such a strong and positive aspect of business if only they were executed with half of a brain.

Develop a skills test relevant to the position (i.e. pilots), have everyone take the test, then assign a skill rank to be the basis of scheduling. If experience truly is an indicator of skill, than it will prove itself in the testing...

If I never hear the word "seniority" again I'll be a happier man.

In my opinion unions could be such a strong and positive aspect of business if only they were executed with half of a brain.


It's not the lack of brains. There are very smart people in just about every union in this country and those smart brains are using the lesser collective for their own purpose. It's about politics and money, not about doing what's right. However, to ensure they still have the muscle, they need to protect members to retain them hence the pain we see/face with rogue employees that aren't disciplined.


Develop a skills test relevant to the position (i.e. pilots), have everyone take the test, then assign a skill rank to be the basis of scheduling. If experience truly is an indicator of skill, than it will prove itself in the testing...


I agree with developing some way to assess everyone's skills/experience to determine rank but not with tests; at least not traditional classroom tests. I hate classroom tests and have NEVER done well in any since kindergarden. However, I deal with lots of "certified professionals" everyday that haven't a clue how to solve problems at work or design solutions that don't break as soon as they're deployed.

If I never hear the word "seniority" again I'll be a happier man.

Normally, I would care a rats a$$ either, but if this thing plays out, like it is currently proceeding with union decertification, the at best, archaic anomaly [unions] might begin to affect the flying public with delays/sick-outs and what-have-you.

OTOH, BoingBoy can give you good reasons why it all makes some sense...

OTOH, BoingBoy can give you good reasons why it all makes some sense...

As I watch from the outside (thankfully), much of it makes as much sense as a soap opera.....

Jim