http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/48734140_congress_senators_specter_and_casey_urge_ us_airways_reconsider_cuts_pittsburgh

Posturing for the voters. It will have no impact.

Dear Senators Casey and Specter.

We've had it with UsAirways. We're glad this finally happened as we can now all move on. Please do not stand in the way of the market opening up further to other airlines.

Respectfully yours,

PIT based fliers.

One of the issues lost in the cutbacks is the elimination of commercial passenger service to several smaller Pennsylvania cities that only had connections through PIT. These were towns in the old Allegheny Airlines network in Western and Central PA. and would now have no other alternative air service (or severely reduced) and so I am sure that the local politicians are pressuring the State leadership to do something.

Good luck with that.

One of the issues lost in the cutbacks is the elimination of commercial passenger service to several smaller Pennsylvania cities that only had connections through PIT. These were towns in the old Allegheny Airlines network in Western and Central PA. and would now have no other alternative air service (or severely reduced) and so I am sure that the local politicians are pressuring the State leadership to do something.

Good luck with that.

I'm not sure that any of these places really "need" any air service. We're talking about cities like Lancaster, PA (about 45 minutes from Harrisburg), Hagerstown, Maryland (about 90 minutes from BWI), etc. Since most of these places were Essential Air Services subsidized markets, and since most were served by Beech 1900's (which are relatively miserable), I think most people were driving to the nearest airport with larger equipment (and probably, more competition and lower airfares).

Jeff

I'd love to see the numbers of pax that were on flights like Bradford or Dubois, PA on a monthly basis. They can't have been so great.

But there's nothing more convenient than showing up at one of those podunk airports 30 minutes before flight time, park in a free lot, walk into the terminal and back out again 30 feet later to the tarmac. That's what I'd miss most if I were one of those passengers.....

Business is business and if US is losing money then pull out. We have a competitive marketplace and if another airline wants to fill that market and can create sustaining revenue and market share, then good for them. I am sad for PIT but at the end of the day, glad to see the tought choices are being made form Tempe by Dougweiser and his quarters buddies.

I feel bad for PIT flyers, I really do.

BUT, all this chest thumping, cursing, swearing and promising never to fly US isn't doing any good, not flying US isn't doing any good. If US could make money in PIT they would be there with bells on!

I don't hear that US is shrinking as an airline, so I can only imagine that the planes are being put on other routes where they CAN make money. I know here in BOS they have added at least one BOS-DCA shuttle a day while seasonally cutting other flights.

So I have to think US is ranking all their routes and possibilities, doing the math, and optimizing their profits by putting planes where they can make the most money - and that place is NOT PIT. Sorry for PIT flyers, but that's business, isn't it?

So I have to think US is ranking all their routes and possibilities, doing the math, and optimizing their profits by putting planes where they can make the most money - and that place is NOT PIT. Sorry for PIT flyers, but that's business, isn't it?

Two things:

1. By leasing more gates than they needed on a month to month (instead of signatory basis), it's estimated that US tossed something on the order of $18 million bucks a year away at PIT. This was allegedly brought to their attention of the airline by the airport authority and subsequently ignored.

2. If they do this as you suggest--"ranking all their routers, doing the math, and such," you would expect that they would immediately transfer almost every asset from the West operation to the East coast, because the West side is making (on paper) peanuts compared to the East operation. PHX got nothing on PHL, revenue wise.

Further, if you take this to it's logical conclusion, it's another bankruptcy. US will admit they used to make money in PIT when they could fare-gouge the local population. Now that they have competition, they run away from "unprofitable routes." This is exactly the behavior that lead to the dismantling of PSA on the west coast, it's exactly the behavior that led to dismantling of the Piedmont intra- and to Florida markets, and it's the exact same behavior which saw them run out of BWI. After a certain fashion, an airline cannot retreat to "profitable" (nee, uncompetitive) routes. The only reason it's working is two bankruptcies.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Southwest could bury this incarnation of US Airways by simply entering CLT and causing the "monopoly hub" fares to drop on key trunk routes.

The good news is that PIT will probably become the next BNA and RDU. It has similar characteristics (notably O&D numbers) to those places before Southwest really built them up. I think the KDKA people are optimistic, but I do believe LUV is going to increase it's presence.

Business is business and if US is losing money then pull out. We have a competitive marketplace and if another airline wants to fill that market and can create sustaining revenue and market share, then good for them. I am sad for PIT but at the end of the day, glad to see the tought choices are being made form Tempe by Dougweiser and his quarters buddies.

See above--if this is a "tough choice," the next logical step is to dismantle the piss-poor (from a relative profitability standpoint) West operation.

As as mentioned prior, it's very similar to the west-coast and Florida pulldowns, as well as BWI. It's actually a repeat of the playbook of CCY from the early and mid-1990s. It did not work at that point, but they also did not have two bankruptcies with which to manage costs.

Casey and Spector’s time would be better spent, limiting the number of flights at congested airports like EWR, PHL, JFK, etc. If I use these cities for an international connection, I try to plan a 3-4 hour connecting time. They need to reduce the congestion in the Northeast. 20 minutes of bad weather is no justification to support a 3 hour delay. Bad weather is with us several days a week. The airlines should do a better job of scheduling to compensate for bad weather. Congress should provide more consumer rights for delays at congested airports caused by scheduling far too many flights. The “weather delay” is used too often as an excuse. Less congested airports like Pittsburgh could benefit in the long run.

You wonder how Detroit and Minneapolis survive as hubs? With the decline of the auto industry in Detroit, I wonder what effect it will have on the DTW airport in the long term. Pittsburgh was convenient for people in the Southeast to connect to the Northeast and the West.

2. If they do this as you suggest--"ranking all their routers, doing the math, and such," you would expect that they would immediately transfer almost every asset from the West operation to the East coast, because the West side is making (on paper) peanuts compared to the East operation. PHX got nothing on PHL, revenue wise.

Haven't we been through this on multiple occasions? There is no way to definitively make a statement that West is a money loser and East is a cash machine without inside information on the internal charge-back structure. That fact hasn't stopped the spin before, so it's no surprise that it would now.


Further, if you take this to it's logical conclusion, it's another bankruptcy. <snip> The only reason it's working is two bankruptcies.

Of course! As we all know, profitable companies out-performing their peers on a relatively consistent basis are headed for BK. How could I have missed that day of class? The PIT losses aren't leaving the system as you'd have us believe, they are largely being reassigned.


As I've mentioned elsewhere, Southwest could bury this incarnation of US Airways by simply entering CLT and causing the "monopoly hub" fares to drop on key trunk routes.

So, now CLT is the cash cow of the company and the only thing keeping it above ground? It certainly would have nothing to do with having a dominant hub in one of the fastest growing metro's around (for those playing at home, that's PHX, not PIT) nor would it be a growing international operation. Blinders are a dangerous, dangerous thing.


The good news is that PIT will probably become the next BNA and RDU. It has similar characteristics (notably O&D numbers) to those places before Southwest really built them up.

On this we agree... and I'm not so sure that's a bad thing for PIT.

does anyone have a listing of USAirways operations at PIT in 2000 or early 2001. I have searched and searched for a comprehensive listing of all their 525 or 545 daily operations to no avail. Any airport or US insider have access to PIT at the height of ops would be much appreciated!

I'd love to see the numbers of pax that were on flights like Bradford or Dubois, PA on a monthly basis. They can't have been so great.

But there's nothing more convenient than showing up at one of those podunk airports 30 minutes before flight time, park in a free lot, walk into the terminal and back out again 30 feet later to the tarmac. That's what I'd miss most if I were one of those passengers.....

My FIL used to fly somewhat frequently from PHL to Johnstown, PA through Pittsburgh. It was a Beech 1900 and he stated that frequently he and his business partner were the only 2 people on the plane. The pilot commented that they have operated the flight empty before, because they have to in order to keep their funding.

My FIL used to fly somewhat frequently from PHL to Johnstown, PA through Pittsburgh. It was a Beech 1900 and he stated that frequently he and his business partner were the only 2 people on the plane. The pilot commented that they have operated the flight empty before, because they have to in order to keep their funding.
I also have experienced the Johnstown flight, though not on purpose. In a typically US odyssey of travel, I was attempting to travel from Burlington, VT to State College, PA at the end of fall break. All flights to SCE were completely sold out. My connection from PIT-SCE went mechanical and I ended up on a flight to Altoona that stopped in Johnstown. The plane was about half full after they added 6 people ticketed to SCE. I couldn't believe that a few passengers disembarked in Johnstown and a few new passengers got on during our 10 minutes on the ground in Johnstown. The 12 minute wheels up to touch down flight from Johnstown to Altoona was the shortest plane trip I have ever taken...

The pilot commented that they have operated the flight empty before, because they have to in order to keep their funding.

That and the FAA regs require scheduled airlines run their flights, empty or full.

And, from an operational standpoint, if they didn't fly the plane empty, then it wouldn't be able to make up its next segment that may have passengers.

You wonder how Detroit and Minneapolis survive as hubs? With the decline of the auto industry in Detroit, I wonder what effect it will have on the DTW airport in the long term. Pittsburgh was convenient for people in the Southeast to connect to the Northeast and the West.

I don't know where to begin with those statements.

DTW and MSP have nowhere near the congestion that PHL (and the general NE region) does. No comparison there. If PHL happened to be all things equal EXCEPT being strangled in the NE corridor, it'd be a different story all together.

The auto industry in Detroit has been on the decline for 25+ years. Yet, NW has done pretty well with DTW as their hub.

PIT was hardly convenient for people in the SE to connect to a Westbound flight when they could much more easily go through CLT.

Dear Senators Casey and Specter.

We've had it with UsAirways. We're glad this finally happened as we can now all move on. Please do not stand in the way of the market opening up further to other airlines.

Respectfully yours,

PIT based fliers.

I agree %100. It is time for all of us to move on. I am hoping UA will increase their service in Pittsburgh. Regardless, it is time to move on. US continued presence in Pittsburgh just inhibits progress. Time will tell who will pick up the slack and how much service we will actually get. As many have already noted, I do believe the Pittsburgh O&D numbers can support direct service to more cities than we currently have. My two cents....

--Jon

...Regardless, it is time to move on. US continued presence in Pittsburgh just inhibits progress. Time will tell who will pick up the slack and how much service we will actually get...
--Jon

So WHO will pick up the slack? I don't relish the thought of WN becoming the dominant carrier here; I'd prefer to status-match and move my business to another full-service carrier at the beginning of the new year, even if it costs more. But will another mainline carrier really pick up the ball in PIT? What's your best guess...Can I take a vote here?

Can I take a vote here?

Please do.....I agree though. I think WN will be good to keep fares low, but would also like to see the other majors up their service. I plan to do a status match before the end of the year and I am struggling with the decision on who to go to. What's your vote/thoughts?

I am very happy with DL. They will match you.

What's your vote/thoughts?

What I'm hoping to generate here are some votes regarding which major is most likely to replace US at PIT.

Currently the options are...

DL has a rapidly improving reputation (thanks for confirming SafetyMom) but flights out of PIT all require a ride in an CRJ to a hub then another CRJ to points East.

CO ups the ante by requiring Dash 8 flights to Cleveland to connect with RJs to the rest of the East.

AA has some nonstop (LGA) but RJ to ORD or LGA then mainline to other East cities.

UA is attractive b/c you could still fly remaining US flights and earn preferred miles and UA still flies big jets.

My vote is to either jump to UA or wait it out on US until an announcement by one of the majors.

What I'm hoping to generate here are some votes regarding which major is most likely to replace US at PIT.

Currently the options are...

DL has a rapidly improving reputation (thanks for confirming SafetyMom) but flights out of PIT all require a ride in an CRJ to a hub then another CRJ to points East.

CO ups the ante by requiring Dash 8 flights to Cleveland to connect with RJs to the rest of the East.

AA has some nonstop (LGA) but RJ to ORD or LGA then mainline to other East cities.

UA is attractive b/c you could still fly remaining US flights and earn preferred miles and UA still flies big jets.

My vote is to either jump to UA or wait it out on US until an announcement by one of the majors.

I like DL a lot, but other than PIT/ATL, you're looking at RJ's on everything east and central. There's also that no segment thing, not good for short haul flyers like me.

I like UA too, but they don't have unlimited upgrades like the others have.

I've also been looking at NW, then you can take advantage of CO and DL when needed. They seem to have a pretty good FF program too.

I hope someone announces something before the end of the year.

I got a silver match on NW this year because I fly to MSP & DTW alot. Out of 12 flights, 5 were DC-9's and 7 were RJ's. I got upgraded on 3 of the 5, FC is about the same as US (except 16 seats on a DC-9). I hesitate to move to them because their CRJ's are very uncomfortable all the way to MSP (over 2 hours). A couple of times I took a later flight to get the DC-9 instead of an RJ (4 hours difference). I don't want to be doing that all the time. I have friends in MSP who are silver and they rarely get upgraded to the west coast. I just don't think MSP is a good connecting point to LAX or SFO.

I wish Delta would put a mainline into CVG. But at least it's only an hour on a CRJ. If I go with DL, I'll probably go through CVG west and ATL south. There is one flight a day to SLC to connect to the west coast. I fly to EWR alot, I'll probably use CO and take credit on DL. Continue to use NW to MSP and take credit on DL. At least US didn't cut BDL, I fly there 2 or 3 times a year.

I've been happy with the CO/DL/NW deal. Actually, last week I took a CRJ from MDT-ATL and it actually wasn't that uncomfortable. Certainly not the 757 I took from ATL-MIA, but certainly bearable for the 1.5 hour flight.

NW is starting to fly more E170/190''s, I hope they continue to utilize those planes as they are very comfortable.

If CO intl. is anything like their product I took to HNL, it is very good, even in coach. The 767 we took IAH-HNL was beautiful and the service excellent. Only drawback there is the extensive ERJ usage by CO - we did CLE-DEN and it was not comfy......

So WHO will pick up the slack? I don't relish the thought of WN becoming the dominant carrier here; I'd prefer to status-match and move my business to another full-service carrier at the beginning of the new year, even if it costs more. But will another mainline carrier really pick up the ball in PIT? What's your best guess...Can I take a vote here?

PittDoc, I would definitely like a choice other than WN (or Jetblue). While they might be fine for many or even most of my business destinations, they don't go to any of the more interesting places I like to go on vacation when I am cashing in my miles. My family likes to go to Hawaii. Technically SW has service there with the ATA alliance; however, I don't consider that a viable option. For Jetblue I think connecting through JFK will be delay prone.


UA is my current full service carrier and I jumped ship to them a few years ago. As a coach denizen, E+ is a really big win that no one else can match. They do have some customer service issues; however, most of the time it works out fine for me. So I hope UA adds some direct service for PIT -> SFO and/or PIT -> LAX. My employer is headquartered in SJC and has a large facility in DEN. UA works pretty well for those trips. Direct SFO service would make it even better. A lot of my travel to clients is up and down the east coast, where UA has some what limited service. So I am not sure what I would do for client visits. I also have family in Florida, where again UA has limited coverage. For both of those I may have to suck it up and still use US connecting via CLT. If US keeps scaling back perhaps UA might eventually increase there east coast service.

EWR is about the worst airport I have seen for delays (makes even PHL look good). So that sort of rules out CO though I still need to look at their route structure from CLE before making a final decision. Since I do a lot of short hops, I frequently qualify for elite status on segments. So Delta won't work there. Maybe I need to look at NW and use CO and DL for backfill. For now, I will stick with UA and see what develops over the next 6 months. If need be, I'll try to get a status match after Q1 08.

--Jon

I find it interesting that, in general, PIT flyers want:
1. For WN to bury US
2. For WN to become the largest carrier at PIT and keep fares low
3. For a full service carrier to make PIT a hub again so THEY can fly full service yet have WN generated low fares.
4. WN must enter the CLT market to bury US once and for all.

I have to say, it sounds like there is some good pot being smoked.

If WN make a big stand at PIT then the other majors will shy away and may also reduce their schedules. however, I think if WN felt that PIT would be a great market for them, they would have done more expansion there than they have. Maybe they add a few frequencies to MDW, BWI, etc. but they won't replace US flight for flight. I think it's a lot of dreaming in technicolor that PIT will again be the major airport it once was.

For those that want WN to bury US, keep in mind that the sand castle has a lot of experience competing with WN at LAS and PHX and have done well to hold their own in those markets. I don't see US being buried by WN, even if WN enters the CLT market. It's wishful thinking on the part of US haters.

The "majors" have had plenty of time to build up PIT over the last few years in and out of BK1 and BK2. They didn't, and won't invest the money. They don't have the planes to divert to PIT, and even if they did there are more lucrative routes in and out of their respecitve hubs.

Don't count on PIT being home to any one airline.

I
For those that want WN to bury US, keep in mind that the sand castle has a lot of experience competing with WN at LAS and PHX and have done well to hold their own in those markets.

Oft-repeated, but it's a myth. Let's look under the hood.

LAS is the largest O&D market in the United States (or it's usually no worse than third). Ergo, there is what I'd call "plenty for everyone," but let's examine that at face value for a second--where HP really "competed" or "competes" with LAS is with the night/redeye flights. They originate them in a western outstation, run 'em thru LAS really late, and fly to the east for a redeye. The strategy is actually solid, given the 24 hour nature of Vegas. The problem is that WN shuts down after dark for all intents and purposes. HP is not competing with WN at that point, because WN does not do redeyes. So, HP has skimmed the top off of the largest O&D market in the world at an hour when the largest carrier in that market does not fly.

That, and I don't know what the flight count at Vegas is for HP these days, but WN is throwing 200+ mainline departures out of there each day (and presumably that many arrivals). I doubt that HP/US is anywhere close to this number, and certainly not in the hours in which WN actually operates it's airline.

HP has not really "done well to hold it's own" in PHX either, if one thinks back a bit. Since WN began it's buildup in PHX, HP has:

1. Been bankrupt once.
2. Had to rely upon the US Government to keep it afloat (in the form of an ATSB loan).

WN, you will note, has not done either of these things. So, it's probably fair to say that "HP+artificial advantages available only in bankruptcy+ATSB" have survived WN in PHX.


So, I guess I'm looking for a definition of "hold their own" or "compete" that does not include using artificial methods (notably bankruptcy and the ATSB) to stay alive that WN has never availed itself of. You cannot be intellectually honest and say that US/HP has "held it's own" with WN, because both former entities have been bankrupt and sucking down the government cheese just to stay around, must less "compete" with the latter entity which has just made money for 30+ years.

On PIT, US could not defend a "focus city to hub market" from either PHX or PHL (they reduced capacity on both when WN came in, despite the fact that the actual passenger counts on both routes went thru the roof). They ran from a Chicago market that was one of the few that was actually competitive in PIT back in the "monopoly hub" days (I lived there and did it at the time. regularly). They bailed on Denver, presumably due to United's massive 2x/day on 737s and the imposing F9 presence out of CAK. Need I go on?


I don't see US being buried by WN, even if WN enters the CLT market. It's wishful thinking on the part of US haters.

I'm sure you thought the same thing in the 1990s at BWI. This time, Dougweiser and Scotch do have the benefit of bankruptcy-slaughtered costs, but that won't last forever. And when it does, in the absence of some better management acumen, things will fall apart. WN entering CLT and depressing the last of the "monopoly hub yields" will hasten that.

I don't know where to begin with those statements.

DTW and MSP have nowhere near the congestion that PHL (and the general NE region) does. No comparison there. If PHL happened to be all things equal EXCEPT being strangled in the NE corridor, it'd be a different story all together.

PIT was hardly convenient for people in the SE to connect to a Westbound flight when they could much more easily go through CLT.

PIT is more centrally located than either DTW or MSP, and can service connecting traffic from both the Northeast, and Southeast. Asia service has helped NW. If you are coming from the Southeast, DTW and MSP are really out of the way and I often have to overnight there if flying to Asia.

CLT is somewhat better than PIT when coming from the Southeast, but it is a matter of congestion and having the option of PIT as a second hub. A one hour connection at PIT was better than a 3-4 hour connection at CLT for certain flights. PHL & EWR are just not an option because of the delays, and DCA does not have enough connections. CLT is more convenient than PIT when comng from the Southeast, but it was a good second option if the CLT connection was not reasonably available or connecting time too long.

It is like ATL and CVG on Delta. ATL is the preferred choice, but CVG is a good backup. I rarely use JFK, except for international flights, or if the ATL and CVG connections are sold out.

I have always found it more convenient to fly Florida-PIT connecting to LAS, LAX or SFO on US, then flying Florida-Pit connecting to LAS, LAX or SFO on NW. And MSP to these destinations can make a real long trip that I try to avoid if at all reasonably possible.

These are some of my observations flying out of PIT for my first 12 years of travelling, and from Florida for the last 26 years.

Two things:

1. By leasing more gates than they needed on a month to month (instead of signatory basis), it's estimated that US tossed something on the order of $18 million bucks a year away at PIT. This was allegedly brought to their attention of the airline by the airport authority and subsequently ignored.


Clue,

All those leased gates are unavailable for the low-fare competition though,this is a well-established play out of the USAirways playbook. They (US) held on to 40 or so gates when they were on decline at BWI (all unused).

In the end the state of MD approached US and asked, "Are you going to use those gates?" Don't know what US's response was, but ultimately the state paid US about $4-5M early termination, just to get US out of about 29gates.

I used to live in PIT - so I mourn all the downsizing as well.

I hate to say this guys ... but the majors and minors have all had years to expand in PIT, and they have modestly, but I really don't think anyone should hold his/her breath waiting for Delta, United, JetBlue or someone else to swoop in and add tons of non-stops.

PIT has to face the fact that aside from the few straggling flights that US keeps there, PIT is going to become a soley "to hub" city.

Chances are the flights to hubs will increase in frequency (and hopefully size of plane) but I doubt you'll get any airlines really adding routes from PIT. I hope I'm wrong. For example, if lots of people switch to DL and they see a rise in traffic from PIT to the west coast, I'm positive they'll increase frequencies to CVG and SLC to open up many more connecting options, but I seriously doubt they'd throw in LAX, SFO, and SEA routes. Come on guys ....

I used to live in PIT - so I mourn all the downsizing as well.

I hate to say this guys ... but the majors and minors have all had years to expand in PIT, and they have modestly, but I really don't think anyone should hold his/her breath waiting for Delta, United, JetBlue or someone else to swoop in and add tons of non-stops.

PIT has to face the fact that aside from the few straggling flights that US keeps there, PIT is going to become a soley "to hub" city.

Chances are the flights to hubs will increase in frequency (and hopefully size of plane) but I doubt you'll get any airlines really adding routes from PIT. I hope I'm wrong. For example, if lots of people switch to DL and they see a rise in traffic from PIT to the west coast, I'm positive they'll increase frequencies to CVG and SLC to open up many more connecting options, but I seriously doubt they'd throw in LAX, SFO, and SEA routes. Come on guys ....

I could see WN as likely to add LAX, OAK, and any other West Coast routes. But you are probably right with respect to the rest of the majors.

I could see WN as likely to add LAX, OAK, and any other West Coast routes. But you are probably right with respect to the rest of the majors.

I don't see SWA adding more trans-/mid-con routes like OAK and LAX from PIT in the immediate future. With the SWA "hubs" of PHX and MDW, you can get to any of the west coast cities with one connection. If there are more SWA flights added from PIT, I think they would be to places like BNA. DEN would be nice, but I would think that F9 would be the first to compete with the existing 2x from UA.

I am finally (after years of thinking about it and after these latest cuts at PIT) going to status match at the end of the year to supplement my already diminishing travel on US. For me U, CO or Delta are the best choices. My view:

United: This would be the obvious best choice on paper for me as it is mostly mainline out of PIT, Denver works well as a hub, and the whole ORD/DEN thing works well for my connections to the west coast. Additionally, I can still tap into the Star Alliance and credit my US miles to United. Also, E+ is probably the best legacy Y product and I don't even mind IAD that much. Big operation at LAX where i spend most of my life (the city not the airport;))

CO: Also good choice for me as I can always drive to CLE in a pinch, and feel CO is has the best in flight service of any major airline. Good connections to TX where I occasionally fly and mainline to Houston. Newer next-gen 737-800s and 900s. Downside is Houston is a little out of the way, EWR is too much like PHL (though not quite as aweful) as a hub and not great west coast network unlike U and US.

Delta: They are a much improved carrier, but I am not a fan of the CRJs and don't really like ATL. CVG works though and they are hubbing up LAX. They have been upgrading their fleet.

NW: Doesn't make sense for me on almost any level, though I would like to try flying through MEM to check it out.

AA: If they would ramp up PIT a bit and go back to mainline, this would be a possibility, but until then, doesn't work for me.