Hey all, I'm new to this apartment thing so please help me out! I viewed an apartment with my gf this weekend with a broker (who I was under the impression wasn't charging a fee). She signed the little form they give you before the showing, which I assume entitles them to collect a fee if you rent, I DID NOT SIGN IT. We viewed an apartment that we were told was available, but when we got there, it had an application, so we left. I called the building back later that day and found out the application fell through so we came back, filled out the application with a roommate (not my GF), put down the deposit, and got the apartment! Woohoo!
Next, I get a call from the broker saying he wants 15% payment (he has since lowered it to one months rent) even though the only work he did was show us an apartment that had an application on it already. I did all the leg work. Here are my questions:

-Since my gf is not paying the rent and is not on the lease (just me and my roommate, she is on as a person to occupy), do I have to pay the fee?

-Does the broker have any legal standing to demand payment from me since I didn't sign the agreement with him?

-Can the broker prevent me from getting the apartment?

-Can the landlord prevent me from getting the apartment until the broker is paid?

Please give me any advice you got. Time is of the essence!! Thanks!

Welcome to the New York real estate market, with brokers who sometimes are the equal of pond scum. If you cannot afford a lawyer you might try calling the city's 311 line and indicate that you need assistance with a broker/landlord situation. NYC does have a department that helps with landlord issues and the like.

Hopefully other posters might be able to give you specific advise.

Hey all, I'm new to this apartment thing so please help me out! I viewed an apartment with my gf this weekend with a broker (who I was under the impression wasn't charging a fee). She signed the little form they give you before the showing, which I assume entitles them to collect a fee if you rent, I DID NOT SIGN IT. We viewed an apartment that we were told was available, but when we got there, it had an application, so we left. I called the building back later that day and found out the application fell through so we came back, filled out the application with a roommate (not my GF), put down the deposit, and got the apartment! Woohoo!
Next, I get a call from the broker saying he wants 15% payment (he has since lowered it to one months rent) even though the only work he did was show us an apartment that had an application on it already. I did all the leg work. Here are my questions:

-Since my gf is not paying the rent and is not on the lease (just me and my roommate, she is on as a person to occupy), do I have to pay the fee?

-Does the broker have any legal standing to demand payment from me since I didn't sign the agreement with him?

-Can the broker prevent me from getting the apartment?

-Can the landlord prevent me from getting the apartment until the broker is paid?

Please give me any advice you got. Time is of the essence!! Thanks!The broker showed you the place. The landlord probably retained this broker so he wouldn't have to deal with the hassles of renting the place himself. So if he's got an arrangement with the broker, the broker can still charge you one month's rent (be happy it's just that--could be a lot higher) regardless of what you signed or didn't sign. You will get laughed at by saying that the broker didn't do much work to get you to sign a lease. That's of no issue.

They don't have an exclusive agreement with the broker. Unless there is some agreement the management company made that anyone who shows the place is entitled to the fee??!?! Right now we are looking at a fee of around $4500

What information do you have confirmed regarding the relationship between the broker and the landlord? If you are showed an apartment, there is a fee involved. The landlord may have exclusivity with one broker or with a group of firms.

I can't believe your fee was reduced to one month's rent. Those things are typically non-negotiable.

In Texas, it is the seller/landlord who almost always pays the broker's commission.

In Texas, it is the seller/landlord who almost always pays the broker's commission.In New York, the marketplace is such that the landlord can just sit back, let the broker do the work, and let the future lessee pay the broker's fee. Demand is that great.

It's going to be a bit of a fight. You do have some ground on the fact that you did not sign the agreement up front, and your girlfriend is not on the lease.

What I would do is take her off as a person to occupy with the management company. You don't want her name connected with the apartment at all. I'm assuming you're moving into a doorman building. Just introduce her to the doormen and once they get to know you and her, they'll just let her through.

Is your employer paying for your relocation expenses? Generally most employers will pay up to 1 month broker fee. See if you can get that reimbursed, and just pay the guy.

I agree as well that brokers in this city are actually a few levels below pond scum, and I try everything I can to avoid them. Luckily, I've only moved once in the last five years, and I don't intend to move again anytime soon.

To be honest, I sincerely doubt that the broker will waste much time trying to go after you for the fee. If you start to get nervous however, just try to negotiate with him for maybe a 1/2 month. They could argue that they showed you the apartment, but they also don't have you as signing the agreement on the fee. You could respond by saying that you were just accompanying your girlfriend.

NY generally tends to side with the tenant in housing disputes, but I'm not sure whether this will come under the jurisdiction of housing court should it get that far.

The recommendation to contact 311 is a good one, or you could just lookup a decent real estate lawyer for a consultation.

But generally, I've found that most brokers will take anything they can get, and also don't want to waste time chasing down commissions they'll have to really fight for.

I'd say you've got a 50/50 chance of beating this.

I can't believe your fee was reduced to one month's rent. Those things are typically non-negotiable.

Actually, I disagree. I tell all of my friends to never pay more than one month as a fee. I'd say in about 80% of the cases, they've managed to knock it down from 15%, and more than half of the time down to one month. One month is typically the lowest that they'll go on a fee apartment, but to pay the full 15% is ludicrous. The fee is actually one of the most negotiable items when renting an apartment. Especially if they haven't done a ton of legwork to find it for you. But if they've taken you out week after week for a while, the negotiation gets much more difficult.

Actually, I disagree. I tell all of my friends to never pay more than one month as a fee. I'd say in about 80% of the cases, they've managed to knock it down from 15%, and more than half of the time down to one month. One month is typically the lowest that they'll go on a fee apartment, but to pay the full 15% is ludicrous. The fee is actually one of the most negotiable items when renting an apartment. Especially if they haven't done a ton of legwork to find it for you. But if they've taken you out week after week for a while, the negotiation gets much more difficult.Maybe times have changed since I moved into my most recent apartment (10 years now) but I am still amazed that brokers will renegotiate their fees when demand is that high. I ended up finding my apt on my own. There was no way I was going to pay a broker for a rental.

Maybe times have changed since I moved into my most recent apartment (10 years now) but I am still amazed that brokers will renegotiate their fees when demand is that high. I ended up finding my apt on my own. There was no way I was going to pay a broker for a rental.

Well, to be fair, the rental market has tightened up this last year, so perhaps brokers might be less willing to negotiate....but it still is negotiable.

I have one friend who is looking right now, but they haven't gotten to the negotiation phase yet. Other than that, my last friend who was looking found his apartment about a year ago, and he paid only one month's fee.

I think that the key to the negotiation is showing interest in the apartment, but being ready to walk away because of the fee. That seems to always get the broker to back pedal. :)

Thanks for the advice guys!!! Well we signed the lease with the landlord and he told us the fee is between us and the broker. Perfect! I'm going to consult with an attorney to see if they have any way to collect since neither myself nor my roommate signed an agreement with them.

If anyone knows one who might do a free consultation for me, I would love their contact info PM'ed to me!

I don't possibly see how you can win this one.

You wouldn't have gone to that place without the broker, and swapping people later in the day doesn't really change that.

If the broker specificailly said there was no fee that's one thing, but they showed you a place under the assumption that if it was rented because of it, they would be getting the fee.

The technicality of who signed the paper may be in your favor, but if I were you I wouldn't expect much else to go your way on this.

I agree, most brokers are scum, but in this case, I believe they are 100% right, you owe them the fee.

Would you have rented this place without having used this broker? If the answer is no than I think you don't have a leg to stand on. If I were the broker I would fight tooth and nail to get you to pay the agreed commission. If I were the landlord I would not have you as a renter (to litigious).

Could I ask a friend to hire a broker to view real estate, tag along, and then negotiate with the owner directly bypassing the broker who showed me the property in the first place? I think not.

Would you have rented this place without having used this broker? If the answer is no than I think you don't have a leg to stand on. If I were the broker I would fight tooth and nail to get you to pay the agreed commission. If I were the landlord I would not have you as a renter (to litigious).

Could I ask a friend to hire a broker to view real estate, tag along, and then negotiate with the owner directly bypassing the broker who showed me the property in the first place? I think not.

That's the point though, I didn't agree to a fee. Worst case scenario we pay it, the rent still isn't that bad. But, I'd rather not pay someone $4500 for walking across the street, spending 3 minutes with us and who didn't do any paperwork. The broker does not have an agreement with the building, the broker simply gets emailed a mass listing, they had never even been to the building before. In fact, the broker thought the apartment he was showing us was available, but when we got there the leasing office said it already had an application. I called the landlord back later in the day and found out the application didn't go through. So I went back and took care of business with the landlord directly.

I'm certainly not litigious and happen to be a perfect tenant:p. I would ideally like to work out something reasonable for both of us.

Anyway, thanks for the advice

But, I'd rather not pay someone $4500 for walking across the street, spending 3 minutes with us and who didn't do any paperwork.Nobody wants to pay that. But you did have a broker show you this apartment. Like it or not, that's how it works. The broker did do some work. Whether you view the work as not being valued at $4500, that doesn't matter. You might find your attorney fees will cost more than the $4500.

One month's rent is $4500? Wow. But that reaction is merely an aside. ;)

You might find your attorney fees will cost more than the $4500.


Fortunately my real estate lawyer shares my last name! :)

That's the point though, I didn't agree to a fee. Worst case scenario we pay it, the rent still isn't that bad. But, I'd rather not pay someone $4500 for walking across the street, spending 3 minutes with us and who didn't do any paperwork.

Ignorance of how rental brokers get paid is no excuse - besides your GF signed the paper. It's also not OK to decide that fee is too high in retrospect. Brokers charge a fee for getting you something you want - why would you be bothered if the first apartment they showed you fit the bill?

I'd say you're lucky to have found a place so quickly - the rental market is one of the toughest (and most expensive) of the past years and the fee may be well worth it.

Though I'd hate to have you as a client if I were a broker (Luckily I'm not) - Welcome to NY.

I'd hate to have me as a client too if I were a broker, since there is no way I am paying for something I didn't agree too. Luckily I haven't and will never contract one to work for me in New York. :)

I'd hate to have me as a client too if I were a broker, since there is no way I am paying for something I didn't agree too. Luckily I haven't and will never contract one to work for me in New York. :)

So you'll just use someones time that you know they expect to get paid for, and try to weasel out any way you can? I admit that $4500 is a lot of money, but I think you should know what you're getting into when you ask someone to help you find a place. The excuse of "The GF signed" doesn't pull much weight for me.

Perhaps you should call Judge Judy, or The People's Court. Sounds like a perfect case. :)

Slow down, weaseling out would mean I agreed to something, which I never did. Not that I'm trying to prove myself right or anything, but the 2 NY real estate lawyers I've spoken with so far think I might have a point. I think it is an interesting situation, so I'm curious to see what will happen.

I'll let everyone know how it works out.

Slow down, weaseling out would mean I agreed to something, which I never did. Not that I'm trying to prove myself right or anything, but the 2 NY real estate lawyers I've spoken with so far think I might have a point. I think it is an interesting situation, so I'm curious to see what will happen.

I'll let everyone know how it works out.

I think your title, "Broker taking advantage of me" is a bit humorous. If your girlfriend wasn't looking for an apartment, then she shouldn't have signed the document. By having her sign, when it was actually you doing the searching, I think that could come back to bite you. The broker may just raise a stink, and let it go, but you don't seem to have clean hands in the deal.

I think your title, "Broker taking advantage of me" is a bit humorous. If your girlfriend wasn't looking for an apartment, then she shouldn't have signed the document. By having her sign, when it was actually you doing the searching, I think that could come back to bite you. The broker may just raise a stink, and let it go, but you don't seem to have clean hands in the deal.

Thats why I posted it as a question. But I think have your opinion, so thank you.

I don't possibly see how you can win this one.

You wouldn't have gone to that place without the broker, and swapping people later in the day doesn't really change that.

If the broker specificailly said there was no fee that's one thing, but they showed you a place under the assumption that if it was rented because of it, they would be getting the fee.

The technicality of who signed the paper may be in your favor, but if I were you I wouldn't expect much else to go your way on this.

I agree, most brokers are scum, but in this case, I believe they are 100% right, you owe them the fee.


You should consider yourself to have great insight in this area.

The following general comments are intended for discussion purposes only and are not to be construed as either a) applying to the specific questions posed by the Original Poster or b) legal advice.

Legal advice should only be obtained from an attorney whom you have retained to review your specific situation and who is admitted to practice before the courts of the State of New York as well as experienced and knowledgable in your particular problem.

That said, here are some points:

1. In the State of New York, a licensed real estate broker or sales person does not need to have a contract for his or her services in writing.

2. In the absence of a signed writing, a broker needs to prove that he performed the type of services for which brokers are usually compensated. In the Manhattan market, for example, a broker need only establish that he showed someone an apartment and that that person subsequently leased it.

3. In the absence of a written brokerage agreement, once a broker establishes the performance of brokerage services which are the obligation of someone, the broker needs to prove the reasonable value of those services. The courts will very likely look at evidence presented of what other brokers are charging for similar work for similar properties.

4. The telephone number 311 is answered by the City of New York which has no jurisdiction over real estate brokers or salespeople. They are licensed by the State of New York Department of State, http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lcns/realest.html

5. I understand there are a variety of online legal resources available for lay people to look up legal terms. (We use things like Westlaw or Lexis.). Therefore, I suggest looking up the following phrases:


Quasi Contract
Unjust Enrichment
Promissory Estoppel


6. I have a lot more to say, but I am holding my tongue.

6. I have a lot more to say, but I am holding my tongue.Has THAT ever stopped you before? ;) Seriously, the info you provided will probably not have one effect on the OP as he will go to court regardless since he is getting legal representation free of charge. That seems to be a theme here.

Let me ask a question to the OP, why did your girlfriend sign the forms with the broker?

Does someone renting a place for $4,500 per month complain about a fee? That is $54,000 per year. I can't help but feel stunned but I guess this is pretty average for New York but I am at a loss for words right now. :(

Pay the broker's fees...period. NYC is the only market where tenents pay the fees, not the landlords. It doesn't matter how much work they do the fact of the matter is that you would have not seen the apartment if it wasn't for them. Yes it sucks...yes it is unfair (maybe), but like other posters have said at least you didn't waste 2 weeks of your time looking for an apartment which I'm sure is worth a lot more than $4,500. The fact that you are only paying 1 month should be considered a steal and I would consider myself lucky if that is what I had to pay. Broker's work on all commision they do not make much money and it sounds like you are just trying to find a loop hole in the system. I have a friend who is a broker and this happens to her all the time. She spends hours doing the leg work behind the scenes calling landlords competing against 1,000 other brokers trying to rent the same spot. She has to go against shaddy landlords who will hold keys and say the place is rented in order to get kick backs from the brokers. After doing all the work and finding her client what he wants he then hears "well you only spent 3 hours showing me places that is not worth $x,xxx." He then negotiates with the broker company and any discount is taken out of her commission. I guess I would be jaded as well

I guess I would be jaded as well

Trust me, these guys aren't all misunderstood. Do a google search for new york apartment broker and watch the hate come flying. From personal experience I had one try to raise the price of the apartment on me 3 times after I had already put an application on it. Only to find out, the apartment I had agreed to rent was twice as much as they told me! This is after I had to search for the landlord because the broker would not give me their number. (Oh and they kept the $2000 deposit I had to put down, did I get screwed on that one?) The landlord even told me how horrible they are, but she has to use them because it is free publicity for her building. Below pond scum is a generalization but 100% accurate in my limited experience.

Does someone renting a place for $4,500 per month complain about a fee? That is $54,000 per year. I can't help but feel stunned but I guess this is pretty average for New York but I am at a loss for words right now. :(

Average for a two bedroom (and would be considered cheap in some areas). A 3 or 4 bedroom can go for 15k or more.

When I obtain services from someone who performs them as his or her means of livelihood, whether I am sitting in the dentist's chair or the barber chair, I pay my bills.

Average for a two bedroom (and would be considered cheap in some areas). A 3 or 4 bedroom can go for 15k or more.Unless you are making between 200K and 500K it just does not make sense to me. Not sure why an employer would want to pay so much salary to an employee JUST to compensate for the exorbitant rent and not necessarily get a better worker than the one making 50K to 100K elsewhere. The Grand Hyatt WAS $60K a year under the Stay Cert. program and they are a hotel with Regency Club access. I am sure a $4,500 apartment is much more luxurious than the Hyatt. It seems like some sort of status symbol to rent in the city making people willing to pay 75% or more of their net income to rent. Now if you were buying something I would not even blink an eye.

Sounds like you have a hard time reading the fine print or you just have a huge sucker tag across your forehead. Why are you signing documents and giving a deposit if you haven't agreed upon rent? Isn't the rent stated in the contract you negotiated? Are you working with a licensed broker or did you try to get a good deal from some no name on craigs list? I hoped you have learned a lesson. Good luck in NYC.

Good luck in NYC.

HEX in the City???

Westcoastman

I agree with what you are saying but you have to understand that NYC is a different beast all together. Throw out the window all your perceptions about what is reasonable because they don't apply. It is the only city where 21 year olds are making 150k/yr fresh out of college and live paycheck to paycheck. Its the business capital of the world where billions change hands everyday. Its a city where demand significantly outstrips supply. Its the major leagues of finance and if you want to play you have to be in the city.

Unless you are making between 200K and 500K it just does not make sense to me. Not sure why an employer would want to pay so much salary to an employee JUST to compensate for the exorbitant rent and not necessarily get a better worker than the one making 50K to 100K elsewhere. The Grand Hyatt WAS $60K a year under the Stay Cert. program and they are a hotel with Regency Club access. I am sure a $4,500 apartment is much more luxurious than the Hyatt. It seems like some sort of status symbol to rent in the city making people willing to pay 75% or more of their net income to rent. Now if you were buying something I would not even blink an eye.

I'm talking about Manahattan. You need an average of 300k in income to live in the better parts of Manhattan with an average sized family. The bulk of people working in manhattan do not live there. On the other hand London is even more expensive. It's all about choice - you can live elsewhere for much less - but hey it's just not the same.

I'd hate to have me as a client too if I were a broker, since there is no way I am paying for something I didn't agree too. Luckily I haven't and will never contract one to work for me in New York. :)

I think you will be the perfect NY tenant. First, you know that you did find the apartment on your own. Second, you say you are not litigious but if I understand you posts correctly, the attorney shares you last name implying you will not have legal fees but the broker who is just trying to earn a living will.

I'm glad I'm not your landlord. The perfect NY tenant knows how to manipulate the system so they don't have to pay all of the rent they signed a contract for. I can see you withholding rent the first time a faucet drips or a closet does not close properly.

"Hey all, I'm new to this apartment thing so please help me out! I viewed an apartment with my gf this weekend with a broker (who I was under the impression wasn't charging a fee). She signed the little form they give you before the showing, which I assume entitles them to collect a fee if you rent, I DID NOT SIGN IT."

If there something I am missing please point it out!!!!!!!!!!!!

You plan on living with your GF and a roomate

Your GF is looking for an apartment which means the apartment she is looking for would also be your apartment

Your GF signs a form saying that she agrees to pay a fee if she rents the building

Your try to renig on the deal by putting your name on the lease with your roomate

You my friend are the scumbag and a cheap one at that.

Fight the broker tooth and nail if you wish, but expect some retaliation. For instance you may come home and find your locks glued up.

Fight the broker tooth and nail if you wish, but expect some retaliation. For instance you may come home and find your locks glued up.

How often do you know that brokers, stiffed out of their commission, will resort to the crime of Criminal Mischief?

I think a lawsuit is more likely.

This thread is starting to remind me of a certain dry cleaning case in the DC area. :)

How often do you know that brokers, stiffed out of their commission, will resort to the crime of Criminal Mischief?

I think a lawsuit is more likely.

It would also depend on the firm - if it is one of the major firms you would likely be in for a shock.

It would also depend on the firm - if it is one of the major firms you would likely be in for a shock.

I don't understand you. I think the major brokerage firms have firm policy that if you don't pay them, they will indeed sue you--not resort to a criminal act.

How often do you know that brokers, stiffed out of their commission, will resort to the crime of Criminal Mischief?

I think a lawsuit is more likely.

You might be right, I'm sure almost all brokers and firms are well experienced dealing with clients trying to shirk the fee. Some may go the criminal route, some the legal route, or maybe some sequencing of both. The OP probably has a good sense by now of the broker's level of determination in and what avenues they may pursue.

Broker taking advantage of me? Real estate lawyer needed!and

[snip]

If anyone knows one who might do a free consultation for me, I would love their contact info PM'ed to me!But
Fortunately my real estate lawyer shares my last name! :)As well as:[snip]

Luckily I haven't and will never contract one to work for me in New York. :)but[snip]

From personal experience I had one try to raise the price of the apartment on me 3 times after I had already put an application on it. Only to find out, the apartment I had agreed to rent was twice as much as they told me! This is after I had to search for the landlord because the broker would not give me their number. (Oh and they kept the $2000 deposit I had to put down, did I get screwed on that one?) The landlord even told me how horrible they are, but she has to use them because it is free publicity for her building. Below pond scum is a generalization but 100% accurate in my limited experience.Are you two different people? I don't get why you begged for free advice when you're related to a real estate lawyer, and why you have a bad broker story when you've never used one. :confused:

Does someone renting a place for $4,500 per month complain about a fee? That is $54,000 per year. I can't help but feel stunned but I guess this is pretty average for New York but I am at a loss for words right now. :(No it is NOT average for New York. So let's get that idea out of your mind right now! :)

...but you have to understand that NYC is a different beast all together. Throw out the window all your perceptions about what is reasonable because they don't apply. It is the only city where 21 year olds are making 150k/yr fresh out of college and live paycheck to paycheck. Its the business capital of the world where billions change hands everyday. Its a city where demand significantly outstrips supply. Its the major leagues of finance and if you want to play you have to be in the city.And there are plenty of those making that kind of money but it is NOT the norm. NYC is also the publishing and fashion capitals of the country and if you think people in those respective industries make $150k/year at age 21, you're living in a fantasy world.

You need an average of 300k in income to live in the better parts of Manhattan with an average sized family.That may be true. To stay in Manhattan, we could only have 1 child. Most people I know have no more than 2 kids. Much of that high income has to go to private schools.

The perfect NY tenant knows how to manipulate the system so they don't have to pay all of the rent they signed a contract for.No, that's the one whose lease doesn't get renewed. The perfect tenant doesn't try to pull some fast one because the demand for apartments is such that the landlord can have whomever she wants.

Are you two different people? I don't get why you begged for free advice when you're related to a real estate lawyer, and why you have a bad broker story when you've never used one. :confused:We wait with bated breath for a response.

We wait with baited breath for a response.

What are you baiting it with? I'm told peanut butter works well when you're trying to catch mice.

(The correct phrase is "bated breath". ;))

What are you baiting it with? I'm told peanut butter works well when you're trying to catch mice.

(The correct phrase is "bated breath". ;))

I wonder if the mods will delete this post like they deleted my "begs the question" vs. "raises the question" post the other day?

If the hypothetical monthly rent on an apartment is $4,500 a month, then a brokerage commission based on 15% of the first year's rent would be $8,100.

I find it unlikely that most brokers will walk away from that much money without some kind of fight.

(The correct phrase is "bated breath". ;))Well TGIF! You learn something new everyday. :cool: Since this is a real estate thread, how's your new apartment? :)

I wonder if the mods will delete this post like they deleted my "begs the question" vs. "raises the question" post the other day?What's wrong with "begs the question"?

What's wrong with "begs the question"?

It's a very different meaning from "raises the question."

See http://begthequestion.info/

It's a very different meaning from "raises the question."

See http://begthequestion.info/When did using a clause incorrectly become an offense worthy of deletion? ;)

When did using a clause incorrectly become an offense worthy of deletion? ;)

It wasn't using the clause incorrectly. It was my correcting them that got deleted. Oh well.

No it is NOT average for New York. So let's get that idea out of your mind right now! :)

[snip]In the interest of balance :), I just renewed my one-bedroom apartment lease last week for about that amount. :eek:

well, it sounds like the OP is looking for a 2 bedroom, so that price is pretty close to the average. http://ap.lancasteronline.com/4/manhattan_rents

No it is NOT average for New York. So let's get that idea out of your mind right now! :)

I'm eagerly awaiting an update from OP and/or OP's family attorney.

No reply eh? Hope the brokers didn't take him for a swim in the East River wearing concrete shoes.

$4500/mo for a 2BR sounds about right for most parts of Manhattan. Particulary the neighborhoods that midwest transplant hipsters like to live in.

In the interest of balance :), I just renewed my one-bedroom apartment lease last week for about that amount. :eek:Well, one bedrooms in my building (a 37 story high rise in midtown on the east river) start at $2700. Your price would cover a 2 BR/2 bath apt on a high floor in my building.

So did he pay or did the broker cry?

You can try searching online. I am sure you will find some reliable lawyers within New York.

There are allways 3-4 times bad lawyers as good ones.Welcome to FlyerTalk, ny_lawyer. Generally speaking it's not worth digging up a 4+ month old thread just to make an observation such as yours. Also, lest you be categorized as one of the bad ones, I hope your legal skills exceed your facility with the written English language. ;)