By ELLEN KNICKMEYER
Associated Press Writer

ROME (AP) -- Italy's loyalty to a hugely unpopular airport that's up to a $100 cab ride outside Milan appears to have cost its national carrier a vital partnership, leaving leaders fretting about the future of the Malpensa airport and Alitalia itself.

Italian politicians hoped to talk KLM Royal Dutch Airlines out of its announced decision Friday to immediately sever its less-than 2-year-old partnership with Alitalia.

But KLM's chief was quoted as putting blame squarely on the Italian government -- and the opposition demanded government and airline executives come before Parliament to explain.

``The government's bad choices have created a situation that risks creating problems for the very survival of Alitalia,'' lawmakers of the opposition National Alliance said in a statement.

KLM abruptly killed its deal with Alitalia late Friday, saying the venture had become ``an unacceptable business risk that could jeopardize its financial position.''

``The alliance with Alitalia is not viable, considering the continuing uncertainty, mainly with regard to the future of Malpensa and the proposed privatization of Alitalia,'' KLM said.

It demanded $91 million in compensation for the failed venture.

KLM entered the deal looking to Malpensa as a second hub in Europe. But for years Malpensa has been plagued with problems, including a poor on-time record and long waits for baggage.

Trying to force Malpensa into use, Italian Transport Minister Pierluigi Bersani in March ordered airlines to switch most flights from Linate, six miles from downtown Milan, to Malpensa, 33 miles from Italy's financial capital. The government said the move was essential to easing congestion at Linate.

But foreign airlines -- including British Airways, Lufthansa and Air France -- complained that the move would unfairly favor Alitalia and filed a complaint with the European Commission.

Alitalia said Friday it still was waiting to learn details of KLM's complaints. In advance of an explanation, it defended both the pace of development at Malpensa and of privatization of the air carrier.

KLM Chief Executive Officer Leo van Wijk, in an interview with Italy's ANSA news service, was quoted as saying the responsibility ``clearly is the Italian government's.''

``If this is definitive, there go our chances of developing our company into a top player in European air transport,'' said Ernesto Stajono, president of the transport commission of Parliament's lower house.

The financial ramifications for Alitalia were not immediately clear. But Finance Minister Ottaviano del Turco said Italy would have to move quickly to ``remedy the situation, either by re-establishing the relationship or by finding another partner for our national carrier.''

Too bad, I'm flying Allitalia a lot from Europe to Africa, apart from always being one hour late (it's standard !) they were not bad.

The good thing about this 'divorce' is that the inflight movies will now be translated back in english spoken movies in stead of italian. I really hated this on my last flight!

If it's up to me they enter the One World alliance with BA

BA Fan http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by BA Fan (edited 05-06-2000).]

BA Fan: That isn't funny http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif The thought of down-market KLM infiltrating the glorified sanctum that is OneWorld sends a shiver down my spine.

I think KLM would be better off playing with Air France (airlines with shabby service should stick together!) and OW can open the door to lovely Alitalia.

Nick


[This message has been edited by Merry (edited 05-06-2000).]

Nick,

I was hoping that OW would show KLM what customer service means. I'm glad you brought up this point because I never intended to suggest that KLM can compare themselves (yet) with the service of for example BA.
I haven't flown AlItalia so I cannot judge about their service levels.

BA Fan

I suppose you get what you pay for.....just back from Minneapolis @ £285 with KLM. They got me there and back safely...food so,so, a gorgeous flight attendant, (female), upgraded with my Royal card, and points as well......what more could you want?

Mike:

On time?
The cabin cramped?
Any free seats?
Nice Departure lounge?
Arrivals lounge?

Ok, I accept they are good at one thing. KLM are cheap! As i have consistently said, they are a discount carrier, pretending not to be.

Glad they got you there and back anyway http://216.167.74.240/forum/smile.gif

Nick

According to today's yahoo airline news...

BA and KLM are in talks - BA is interested in KLM's relationships with CO+NW

Merry

Cramped Cabin?- The new World Business Class is very similar to the outgoing Club World seat. Comfy enough for me and if I purchase a consolidated ticket it's less than half the cost of BA. Keeps our accountants happy and helps reduce the (much threatened) introduction of an "Economy Only" policy.

Nice Departure Lounge?- The new RoyalWing lounge at Schipol is much improved.

Arrivals Lounge? - Showers in the RoyalWing lounge are enough for me until I get home.

On Time? - Now that the hassle at AMS is sorted most of my flights (ex EDI, ex AMS) have been on-time.

Free seats? - Every airline tries to fill their seats. KLM try to keep the middle seat empty in Economy when window or isle is occupied by a RW passenger.

KLM had a customer service disaster in 1998 and 1999 with a series of problems due to ATC restrictions at AMS and a disaterous migration from in-house to out-sourced Flying Dutchman programme. However, things have substantially improved.

I get far more recognition as a RoyalWing member than I ever did as BA Gold.

[This message has been edited by Gaza (edited 05-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Gaza (edited 05-16-2000).]

Regarding the BA-KLM talks mentioned above:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000361.html

Gazza: But if you bought a consolidated ticket on BA it would be just as cheap?!

You have said nothing to imply that you think the service on KLM is as good as on BA - infact you imply that you will make do with their inferior service levels - personally I have never found any benefits in KLM RoyalWing, I have been RoyalWing PC for the last year, and was made CC earlier this month - I still won't fly with them unless I have to. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Nick

The breakdown of alliance talks between Italian carrier Alitalia SpA (I.ALI) and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (KLM) is final, Piero Gnudi, the chairman of state holding company IRI, said Tuesday.

Speaking to a Lower House Transport Commission, Gnudi said that Alitalia officials tried to patch up the situation "but these attempts did not obtain any results and therefore the break-up must be considered definitive."
http://dowjones.wsj.com/archive/gx.cgi/AppLogic+retrieve?id=ON-CO-20000530-000226.djml&d2hconverter=display-d2h

Alitalia may ask KLM airline for more than 250 million euros (USD$238.2 million) in damages after the collapse of their alliance in April, according to an Italian newspaper. KLM denied it had received any official approaches over possible compensation.
Alitalia also plans to keep a 100 million euro payment KLM made to ease the transition of flights to Milan's new Malpensa airport, which was to have been an important hub for their traffic.

KLM cited problems surrounding the on-off transfer between Milan's Linate and Malpensa airports when it ditched Alitalia.

KLM is now in merger talks with BA, despite Italian government hopes that the KLM-Alitalia project could be saved.

The daily newspaper Il Sole said Alitalia was considering pursuing KLM for 500billion lire (258 million euros) in damages for what it regards as an "illegitimate" decision by KLM to drop the alliance.
An Alitalia spokesman declined to comment on the report specifically, but reiterated what the company had said in its recent 1999 annual report: "We reserve the right to ask for the restoration of damages suffered for the illegal breakdown of the alliance by KLM."

KLM has received no official request for damages from Alitalia over the collapse of their alliance, a spokesman for KLM said.
"We haven't received anything from Alitalia - we've had no letter, nothing official," spokesman Youssef Eddini told Reuters.

Alitalia is again considering an alliance with Air France following the failure of its alliance with KLM of the Netherlands, the Milan financial newspaper MF reported.
http://news.airwise.com/stories/2000/06/961071748.html

KLM will file a claim against Alitalia in response to the arbitration sought by its one time partner.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000801/aat000699.html

---
How things change! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Alitalia confirmed today that it is considering an alliance with either Swissair or Air France.

Analysts have pointed to Germany's Lufthansa, Switzerland's SAirGroup, the parent of Swissair and Belgium's Sabena, and Air France as possible partners, though none is ideal because of their proximity to Amsterdam and competing hub development strategies.
http://public.wsj.com/news/personalEmail/SB96955536436273434-SB969596563821432026.html

AF confirms it is in talks with Alitalia over entry into the SkyTeam alliance.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum114/HTML/000017.html

For the ones reading French, from Yahoo.
Basically it tells that Alitalia finds a possible alliance with AF "very interesting"
,with eventually capitalistic links in the future.Alitalia will probably choose between AF or SR.
Comment:
Milano is pretty close from Zurich , if I remember well.Besides Italia is the 2nd economic partner of france after germany, and viceversa.

So, through the choice of Alitalia, it's gonna be interesting to see if there is any kind of real economic reasons behind those airlines alliances, or not just fluffy marketing blahblah


ROME, 11 déc (AFP) - Le transporteur aérien italien Alitalia a qualifié lundi "d'option très intéressante" la possibilité d'une
alliance avec Air France à la suite des propos du président de la compagnie française selon qui
une alliance capitalistique entre les deux groupes n'était pas exclue.

"La possibilité d'une alliance entre Alitalia et Air France est une option très intéressante parmi celles qu'Alitalia est en train
d'étudier" a déclaré un porte-parole de la compagnie.

Samedi, le président d'Air France Jean-Cyril Spinetta avait indiqué que des discussions avaient été engagées en septembre
avec Alitalia pour intégrer l'alliance commerciale Skyteam mise en place par le transporteur français et l'américain Delta
Airlines.

"Les pourparlers avec Alitalia pourraient aboutir à un partenariat commercial. A plus long terme, une alliance capitalistique
n'est pas exclue", avait-il déclaré dans un entretien au Journal des Finances.

Le transporteur italien a indiqué, lundi, qu'il restait officiellement "en discussions avec tous les acteurs du secteur" et que
parmi ceux-ci Air France et aussi la compagnie suisse Swissair étaient les partenaires les plus probables.

Also please see:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum6/HTML/000072.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum9/HTML/000014.html

[This message has been edited by doc (edited 12-12-2000).]

Very interesting. But will Alitalia be another buttomless hole or can it be turned around? Renault have so far done well with Nissan, but AF has it own problems, so I don't know.

SR seems to have a lot of problems with the airlines the have invested in. I can't see that they can afford loosing too much money. Unless the Italian goverment will pay for the party?

French Industry Minister Christian Pierret said in a radio interview that France has no plans to relinquish its majority control of Air France.

While the airline needs to form alliances with other carriers and find funds to renew its fleet of aircraft, including the 550-seat Airbus A380 superjumbo, "the state has no goal to privatise Air France", M. Pierret told BFM radio station.

The minister's comments appear to quash speculation that the French government might be prepared to reduce its 56 per cent stake in Air France to help prospects of forming a partnership, possibly Italian carrier Alitalia.
http://news.airwise.com/stories/2001/01/978699152.html

A Italian government source said on Monday KLM had approached the Italian carrier to restart alliance talks, but Alitalia was also holding negotiations with other airlines.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010129/aat001005.html

Italy said yesterday it had held "informal contacts" with Dutch carrier KLM about the possibility of renewing its merger with Italian state-owned carrier Alitalia that was aborted last year.

The Italian treasury, which has a 53 per cent stake in Alitalia, added that no progress had been made in the talks.
http://news.airwise.com/stories/2001/02/981115014.html

AND:

FWIW, Il Sole 24 Ore reports on the front page that an alliance with KLM once again is the front-runner.


AND: KLM is also interested in buying into an MH stake.
http://forum.airwise.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=250&pagenumber=1

[This message has been edited by doc (edited 02-03-2001).]

Feb 05,2001


Resignation of Alitalia's CEO
May Help Needed Alliance
By Deborah Ball
Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal

MILAN -- The embattled chief executive of Alitalia SpA has resigned, in a move that could facilitate a much-needed alliance for the Italian carrier, possibly with former partner KLM Royal Dutch Airlines .

Domenico Cempella resigned Friday, ending more than a month of speculation over the fate of the longtime Alitalia executive. The move came just as the Italian Treasury, Alitalia's majority shareholder, admitted that it has been talking with KLM about reviving the alliance between the two airlines that the Dutch abruptly broke off last April.

Mr. Cempella gave no reason for his resignation. However, it came a day after the Treasury admitted its negotiations with KLM, apparently without the involvement of the Alitalia management.

Mr. Cempella, who began with Alitalia in 1958 as a check-in clerk, has been credited with having brought Alitalia back from the brink of bankruptcy when he took the helm in 1996. At the time, Alitalia had acquired a reputation among travelers for its poor service and the near-constant battles with unions that resulted in waves of strikes. Mr. Cempella made peace with the workers by making them shareholders, negotiated a two-trillion-lire ($964.7 million or 1.03 billion euros) cash injection from the state and brought Alitalia's accounts back into the black after eight years of losses.

Despite these successes, however, Mr. Cempella stumbled over the issue of an international partner, key to an airline that has a near-monopoly at home but is quite weak outside of Italy. The partnership with KLM was ideal in that the two airlines were acceptably close in terms of size and because the Dutch's strong international network nicely complemented Alitalia's dominance at home. The alliance, formed in 1997, was predicated on building Milan airport Malpensa into a hub that would flank Amsterdam's Schiphol airport in order to create a balanced north-south axis. At the same time, Alitalia -- which is 53%-controlled by the state -- was to have been fully privatized.

After little more than two years, however, the alliance began to break down. The Dutch grew frustrated with the endless series of mishaps at Malpensa, such as poor connections with the city center and persistent logistical problems. The airport was also the target of several years of protests by the competing airlines who were forced to move out of Linate, the airport that is much more convenient than Malpensa, lying just 20 minutes from Milan's center. To compound matters, the deterioration of Alitalia's accounts as well as the battles over Malpensa made the privatization of the airline impossible.

As a result, the Dutch unceremoniously broke the alliance last April, leaving Alitalia in an even more precarious position. Alitalia is expected to declare a loss of about 400 billion lire for 2000, weighed down by the Malpensa problems, the end of the KLM alliance and the increase in oil prices.

In the months that followed, Mr. Cempella sought agreements with Air France and Swiss Air, but to no avail. In recent weeks, rumors of renewed talks with KLM started swirling, culminating in last week's admission of discussions by the Treasury.

While the Treasury's statement emphasized that the talks had reached no conclusion, Alitalia Chairman Fausto Cereti said over the weekend that Alitalia is "very close to the conditions for a deal" for an alliance, although he didn't identify the potential partner. A spokesman for Alitalia had no comment, and Treasury officials couldn't be reached for comment.

KLM is also in need of a partner, having failed to close a deal with British Airways following the break with Alitalia. Over the weekend, KLM spokesman Hugo Baars downplayed the talk of an imminent alliance, emphasizing that no progress has been made on the privatization of Alitalia and that Malpensa is still experiencing problems. He did indicate, however, that the Dutch are open to talking with Alitalia. "If there is a new management with different views and with new proposals, I'm sure they'll make them known to KLM," he said. "I can't exclude that we would be open to proposals from Alitalia."

http://public.wsj.com/sn/y/SB981325869861777729.html

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (NYSE:KLM - news) said on Wednesday it did not rule out reopening talks with Italian flag carrier Alitalia , its former alliance partner.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010207/l07116492.html

Air France said it was ready to launch alliance talks with Alitalia as soon as a new chief executive was chosen to replace Domenico Cempella, who stepped down on Friday.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010207/l07116492.html

Information source: http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010207/l07116492.html


AMSTERDAM, Feb 7 (Reuters) - KLM Royal Dutch Airlines said on Wednesday it did not rule out reopening talks with Italian flag carrier Alitalia , its former alliance partner.

``We keep all options open,'' KLM Chief Executive Leo Van Wijk told CNN. ``I don't rule out that we will have discussions with Alitalia again.''

In April 2000, KLM pulled out of an alliance with Alitalia. The link-up was launched in 1998.

Since then both airlines have been searching for new partners.

Italian government sources said at the end of last month KLM made approaches to Alitalia, but KLM has strongly denied it has held talks with any other airline since September last year.

KLM held four months of talks last year with British Airways about a possible merger, but the talks collapsed in September.

On Monday, Air France said it was ready to launch alliance talks with Alitalia as soon as a new chief executive was chosen to replace Domenico Cempella, who stepped down on Friday.

An Alitalia source told Reuters on Wednesday that the airline on Friday will nominate Francesco Mengozzi to take over the company's top job.

KLM shares fell 2.14 percent to 27.40 euros in midday trading in a slightly weaker market, compared to a 12-month peak of 34.75 euros touched last July and a low of 17.55 hit in October.

Alitalia shares were flat at 2.035 euros at around midday GMT. The shares saw a year high of 2.52 euros in March last year and a low of 1.80 last month.

Originally posted by Merry:
Mike:
Sorry Nick...just got back from another trip to the Middle East. Re. my last MSP trip....
On time? To AMS, yes. Onward to LHR no, flight cancelled !
The cabin cramped? No way , on the upper deck
Any free seats?No, but then there's only 12 seats upstairs
Nice Departure lounge? NW lounge in MSP, OK as it goes, Royal Wing in AMS, again ok. (But not so good as BA Terraces)
Arrivals lounge? You mean when I got home ? Great !

Ok, I accept they are good at one thing. KLM are cheap! As i have consistently said, they are a discount carrier, pretending not to be.

Glad they got you there and back anyway <IMG SRC="http://216.167.74.240/forum/smile.gif">

Nick

Merry, I well nigh cheered when I read your post. I thought that it was me. KLM is dreadful, thank God british Airways left them at the altar. Still there is worse. Have you endured Northwest recently? KLM without the polish, if you can imagine such a thing. YOu seem to think highly of Alitalia? Couild you elaborate a little. I've not used them in years.

When I took my AZ flights before the end of the KL/AZ alliance, I was surprised at the high standard of the AZ onboard service !

Malpensa was awful, but that was because of Customs and not due to AZ.

AZ lounges were really awful though... I had to beg to have a shower !

------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanAirlines
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ContinentalAirlines
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KLMAirlines
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NorthwestAirlines

Hi all,

probably you have all heard that KLM has confirmed to negotiate again with Alitalia?

TC ( KLM crewmember....)

P.S. To read an airline crew discussion about this topic, click here (http://www.crewstart.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000056.html)



[This message has been edited by TC (edited 02-13-2001).]

Formally yes, but I also actually just heard quite the contrary from KLM! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000041.html



[This message has been edited by doc (edited 02-13-2001).]

KLM (NYSE:KLM - news) said on Tuesday the Italian government had made an informal approach about reviving the Dutch airline's alliance with Italian flag carrier Alitalia , but KLM had refused to restart talks. ``There was an informal signal from the Italian government towards KLM if there would be any possibility to restart discussions regarding cooperation,'' KLM Royal Dutch Airlines spokesman Bart Koster told Reuters.

``KLM has indicated very strictly that under the current circumstances there is no way we would restart negotiating or talking with Alitalia,'' he added.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010213/aat001040.html

When questioned Tuesday, spokesman Andrea Giannoni had no comment on the latest report.

KLM said it will continue to look for the best alliance partner and stressed that it's not in exclusive talks. The company has said it needs a partner to survive in the competitive airline industry.
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/010213/klm_alital.html

[This message has been edited by doc (edited 02-13-2001).]

``We'd like to resume talks with Alitalia's (new management) with a view to finalising a deal quickly,'' he said, adding that it would only be a commercial deal with the airline, along the lines of membership in Delta Airline's (NYSE http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gifAL - news) SkyTeam alliance.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010228/l28270877.html

A franco-italian airline might bode well for airline catering standards going up but imagine facing coffee and espresso fueled AF/AL cabin and ground staff...

DL noted today that it would welcome a commercial deal between its European alliance partner Air France and Italian airline Alitalia.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010306/business_delta_alitalia_dc.html

Air France confirms Alitalia meeting this week
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum114/HTML/000017.html

AMSTERDAM, April 4 (Reuters) - KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (NYSE:KLM -
news) said on Wednesday it was not in formal cooperation negotiations
with Italian flag carrier Alitalia .

``We meet regularly with all airlines about several things...but
there are no formal talks between KLM and Alitalia,'' KLM spokesman
Bart Koster told Reuters.

He was responding to comments by Alitalia's new CEO Francesco
Mengozzi, who was quoted in an Italian newspaper as saying the
Italian airline was in serious partnership talks with KLM and Air
France.

Mengozzi said there were working groups which were in constant
contact.

``We don't know what Mr Mengozzi means by working groups,'' Koster
said.

Referring to Mengozzi's comment that Alitalia would soon meet with
KLM chief Leo van Wijk, Koster said: ``He's welcome to meet Van Wijk
but from our side there's nothing new.''

A year ago, KLM pulled out of an alliance with Alitalia launched in
1998.

Alitalia, the Italian national carrier, is on the verge of forging a strategic alliance with Air France in a move that could lead to the airlines taking mutual stakes.
http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3RT1B3VLC&live=true&tagid=ZZZYF7I2B0C&subheading=transport

From the dutch newspapers this morning:

Alitalia is making it's link up with AF official, the Italian minister for transportation said that KLM was ignorant and stupid and that the KLM Alitalia books were now FULLY shut.... Who o Who can KLM link up with now?

Jean-Claude Couturier, an Air France spokesman, said that Jean- Cyril Spinetta, the French carrier's chairman, met last month with Alitalia's chairman, Fausto Cereti.

"Air France is talking to Alitalia, along with other airlines" about possible alliances, Mr. Couturier said. He declined to comment on Italian news reports that an agreement might be signed in May.

Alitalia, Italy's largest airline, has been looking for a partner since KLM Royal Dutch Airlines pulled out of their alliance last April. Francesco Mengozzi, Alitalia's chief executive, has said that the airline was talking to Air France and KLM and hoped to announce an ally before shareholders meet in late May.
http://c.moreover.com/click/here.pl?p17991642

I guess this leaves the Qualiflyer members in Europe. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Would be nice if KLM got things organized with CO.

[This message has been edited by SMessier (edited 04-24-2001).]

It would be nice if KLM got organized in the first place. After that they may worry about organizing things with CO.

This is just my hummble oppinion.

BA Fan

The choices are as obvious as they are limited. KLM is benefiting big time from all the trouble at Qualiflyer. But at the same time losing to the big alliances. KLM lost Eurowings to LH and a lot of Germany traffic can potentially be lost. KLM doesn’t really want to link up with SR because they have the same trouble as KL; no big home market!
What SR does have though is a hub that actually works and SR has an organisation that works, unlike AZ! Speak to Italians about AZ and you wonder why KL ever got into bad with them in the first place.

What KL needs is an extra hub (wish of NW) and a bigger market. KL spoke with SR before, but their chairman didn’t like the Dutch, he is gone now and they are selling their assets at lightning speed so…..

KL doesn’t want to go with AF, because the French are as difficult to merge with as the Italians. KL really wants to use its very successful pseudo-merger formula on a European partner (it is very successful with NW).

The choices now are only SR and some smaller private airlines in Italy and Spain. Everything else is gone.

KL will also have a hard time motivating smaller partners after all the discontent from Braathens and Eurowings.

The European airline industry is consolidating; KL will need to decide if they want to remain no 4 carrier! Smaller flag-carrier-alliance-partners will be marginalized! Look at SK, did that weird link with LH in Star do them any good? NO and now they are stuck, very difficult route back out and no options for growth under LH dominance.

Since SR is not to only focus of the S air Group, a link might be timely!

Share your opinions with me and we will solve it for those guys at Schiphol!

BTW

Getting their act together when it comes to CO is indeed of utmost importance.
Get to work guys!!

In the "need to get organized" department.

I emailed the FD help desk this week to ask for a brochure on the program given how little information is available online (especially for non FD members). A fact I pointed out in my email...

Their first reply was: Check our web site.

The reply to my second email? To get a brochure, you need to fax or write to a specific address.

Thanks! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by SMessier (edited 04-26-2001).]

Last night had dinner with KLMuk webmaster as well as another KLM staff member, which was to ask us what we want out of the KLMuk website ( forum particularly - now temporarily gone ! ).

A fun and most interesting evening was had by all.

I would say that from my understanding of what was said was that due to the 2 recent major public losses of face that KLM has had - re AZ split, and BA nogo, they are working feverishly behind the scenes and that when any deal is announced.....

It will be done, signed, sealed and being put into operation.

A most interesting evening was had by all, and it was a pleasure to meet some of my fellow RW/KLMuk forumers.

Thanks KLM/KLMuk !

------------------
Continental Airlines (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ContinentalAirlines)
American Airlines (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanAirlines)
KLM Royal Dutch Airlines
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KLMAirlines)
NorthwestAirlines (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NorthwestAirlines)

Originally posted by miles4all:
KLM doesn’t really want to link up with SR because they have the same trouble as KL; no big home market!
What SR does have though is a hub that actually works.



"German - Swiss border war"

Approches to ZHR are done mainly above German area. Consequently the people living near the German Swiss border are suffering from noise and polution more than the Swiss inhabitans around and near ZHR. For that reason the German government canceled the treaty between Germany and Switzerland from the 31st May 2001 on containing an intended equal distribution of approaches on both sides of the German Swiss border.

The geographical situation is as follows: ZHR uses for approaching flights mainly (95%) the runways 14 and 16 which begin about 18km away from the German border. For departing flights runways 16 and 28 are used. This offers ZHR subject to the given runway constellation an optimal use of the runways and an optimal flight regulation. Approaches from the south (using runways 32 and 34) would lead above the city of Zurich. Additionally the area on the south of ZHR is rising quite steeply offering quite less aerial space for landings than the flat area on the north side in direction to Germany.

Due to the German viewpoint Switzerland is breaking the treaty with ZHR's approaching policy. The municipalities near the Swiss boder have complained about this situation for a long time. The former German traffic minister, Klimmt, canceled the treaty last year decreasing the formerly 140000 allowed approaches above German area in a height less than 3000 meters to 100000 from the 1st June 2001 on and to 80000 from the 1st June 2002 on. Additionally there are no departing flights from ZHR in a height less than 3000 meters above German area allowed any more.

Nevertheless, there is a necessity to find a solution, because a radical deregulation of the of departs and approaches around ZHR would have negative effects to all flights from and to ZHR. Additionally (and that is emphasized by the Swiss side) the German area near the Swiss border and near ZHR depends on the economical effects of ZHR. On the other side Switzerland mustn't break treaties concerning environmental matters with neighboring states. The last negotiations on 7th December 2000 didn't have neither any progress nor a result on this point.

SR might be a no option, because of the ownership with SN and the story on the street that SR doesn't want to go with KL.

------------------
Cheers,

Brenno.

KLM says no alliance talks held or planned

KLM saw two would-be partners slip from its grasp in 2000. Last September, KLM and British Airways said they had ended talks about a possible merger after nearly four months of negotiating. In April 2000, the Dutch carrier pulled out of an alliance with Alitalia which was launched in 1998.


http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010517/l1794941.html

Posted by Henk Ombelet to the KLMAirlines Yahoo group:


Source: Air Transport Intelligence


KLM sticks to alliance waiting game

KLM is continuing to play a waiting game regarding its future alliance
strategy, preferring to wait for any possible fallout from the current round
of consolidation in the US airline industry to work its way through existing
alliance groupings before making its move.

Speaking at a press conference to mark an almost trebling of its operating
profits for the year ending March 2001 of EUR277 million ($245 million),
president and CEO Leo van Wijk said the airline did not expect any alliance
developments in the short term and bullishly stated that from an economic
standpoint, KLM was capable of surviving the impact of an economic slowdown
on its own.

"Our financial strength, together with our strong brand, will enable us to
succeed on our own for a while," he said, pointing also to the strategic
importance of the airline's hub at Amsterdam Schiphol airport and its
successful relationship with Northwest Airlines.

However he says this strength will make the carrier "one of the most
attractive European airlines for consolidation" and he reaffirmed his belief
that consolidation is both "inevitable as well as desirable".

Conceding that he had met the new management at former partner Alitalia and
did not rule out another meeting, he maintained that nothing had been
concluded and that no partners had been ruled in or out.

"Everybody is talking to everybody, and so are we. I don't rule out anybody,
but I don't expect any decision to be taken soon," he says, adding that he
did not know when a "window of opportunity" might occur.

On the nature of alliances - KLM's abruptly terminated relationship with
Alitalia had been the first step to a full merger and its subsequent
discussions with British Airways had also surrounded a possible merger - van
Wijk describes mergers as the "most natural and desirable" form of
consolidation. "We therefore remain in favour of mergers, but do not rule
out other forms of co-operation in Europe," he says.

I think that I lost track of how many times KLM and Alitalia broke up, definitely broke up or planned to break up ...... let's say they were never on the same page to start with http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif

BA Fan

[This message has been edited by BA Fan (edited 05-17-2001).]

Italian flag carrier Alitalia , searching for an international partner for over a year, aims to complete an alliance deal very shortly, Chief Executive Francesco Mengozzi said on Wednesday.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010523/l23443927.html

Italian airline Alitalia said on Thursday it would complete a commercial alliance by the end of the summer.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010621/l21417846.html

Italy said on Wednesday there would be no exchange of shares when national airline Alitalia signs a commercial accord with Air France next month, putting an end to more than a year of cautious circling.

``It is a commercial accord which will not have any significance in terms of shares,'' Industry Minister Antonio Marzano told reporters on the sidelines of a business meeting.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010627/l27522566.html

When the deal is completed Air France and Alitalia are likely to enter into code sharing arrangements.

http://news.airwise.com/stories/2001/06/993817242.html

Alitalia's board on Monday gave its go-ahead for a commercial accord with Air France, a board member said, adding the deal could bring the Italian flag carrier 200 billion lire ($87 million) of savings.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010709/l0972633.html

Air France, Alitalia planning joint marketing strategies

AF and Alitalia have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) in Rome. According to the terms of the MoU, Air France and Alitalia have agreed to a round of exclusive talks to develop enhanced marketing activities in view of Alitalia's possible membership of SkyTeam.

"The French and Italian markets, the third and fourth largest in Europe, have a great deal in common, with a fairly even balance between business and leisure traffic," said Air France chairman Jean-Cyril Spinetta.

"Italy is a strategic market for Air France, which serves 12 major Italian destinations with over 50 flights a day.

http://www.schednet.com/schedule/news/N010716.HTM#HL5

Rumors says that the integration of Alitalia to Skyteam could happen in early 2002, february or march.

I do not have any idea why it should take so much time.

The board of Italian carrier Alitalia has approved an agreement to join the Sky Team alliance grouping Air France, Delta Air Lines, AeroMexico, CSA Czech Airlines and Korean Air.

The board also approved two separate commercial alliances with Air France and Delta Air Lines due to be signed on Friday.

The commercial deal with Air France is due to last until October 31, 2011 and envisages the development of hubs at Paris Charles De Gaulle, Milan Malpensa and Rome Fiumicino airports.

According to the agreement, Alitalia and Air France will share operating profits on the routes between Italy and France.

http://news.airwise.com/stories/2001/07/996084590.html

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by doc:
...will share operating profits on the routes between Italy and France....
</font>

Doc, you are really good; I always forward rumors, you have good references of the sites where the information comes from.
Really good job !

I have a question, but may be it is not really a question...

Sharing profit between two bureaucraties... I want to see that. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
As a customer, will we be able to buy our ticket on Alitalia or Air France, and have the choice ?
Will then Alitalia be a 'better' then Delta on this concern ?
(Remember that today Delta buys a given number of seats on codeshared flights, and if it is over, it's over.
Same for AF.
It sounds to me that sharing the operational profit means thaey will really work together

Maybe! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

---

France and the United States have struck an ``open skies'' air transport liberalisation pact, paving the way for closer ties between Air France and Delta Air Lines (NYSE http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gifAL - news), France's Transport Ministry said on Friday.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/011019/atf005_1.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/011019/l19229487_1.html

Luchtvaartmaatschappij KLM heeft een nieuwe partner in Italië. Twee jaar na de scheiding van Alitalia, gaat zij in zee met de tweede luchtvaartmaatschappij van het land, de Volare Group.

De overeenkomst, waaraan momenteel de laatste hand wordt gelegd, bestaat in eerste instantie uit commerciële samenwerking. In april van dit jaar moeten gezamenlijke vluchten binnen Italië van start gaan, die in een latere fase wellicht tot een uitwisseling van aandelen kan leiden.

Volare is gesticht door Gino Zoccai, een juwelenfabrikant uit het noordoostelijke Vicenza, die 80 procent van de aandelen bezit. De 1100 medewerkers tellende maatschappij bezit 23 vliegtuigen. In 2001 bedroeg de omzet €500 miljoen, voor de helft afkomstig uit lijnvluchten en half uit charters. Tot voor kort werkte Volare samen met Swissair, dat 49,8 procentaandelen had overgenomen. Maar onlangs heeft Zoccai die weer teruggekocht van de door de crisis getroffen Zwitsers.

In het economisch dagblad Sole 24 Ore verklaarde KLM-manager Paul Gregorowitsch, dat `we dicht bij een akkoord zijn, waarmee wij onze positie op de Noord-Italiaanse markt kunnen versterken'. De keuze in Italië zou op Volare gevallen zijn, omdat deze maatschappij goedkoper werkt dan concurrenten als Meridiana of AirOne.

Omgekeerd levert de samenwerking met de KLM Volare een vermeerdering op van het aantal vluchten op Amsterdam, van waaruit een geregelde verbinding met intercontinentale vluchten kan worden gegarandeerd. Dat is vooral interessant voor zakenlieden uit het noordoosten, het economisch meest dynamische gebied van Italië, waar Volare zijn basis heeft. Die zijn voor intercontinentale vluchten nu nog veelal aangewezen op de Milanese luchthaven Malpensa, die niet alleen betrekkelijk ver weg ligt, maar bovendien wordt geteisterd door stakingen, mist en desorganisatie. Vanuit de vliegvelden van Treviso, Triëst en Verona kunnen zij net zo makkelijk over Schiphol reizen.

You can sign up here for a free account to translate this to english.

http://www.systransoft.com/

Air France and Delta Air Lines to Reinstate Codeshare Flights With Korean Air Between South Korea, France and the U.S.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020214/atth024_1.html

---

Executives from the three airlines signed code-share agreements -- which were severed for about three years after the airline was involved in a series of crashes -- in a ceremony held in Korean Air's headquarters in Seoul.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/020214/seo129516_1.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/020629/airlines_alitalia_airfrance_1.html

ROME, June 29 (Reuters) - The European Union is set to block the alliance plans of Italian airline Alitalia (Milan:AZPIa.MI - News) and Air France (Paris:AIRF.PA - News) unless deep changes to a planned link-up are introduced, the Financial Times reported on Saturday.

The Financial Times added that the Commission's conclusion was based on the view that a tie-up would stifle competition in the Italian and French airline markets.

The Commission, it added, will ask the airlines to modify the joint venture so as not to block competition.

Struggling Alitalia entered a commercial accord with Air France in July last year, becoming a member of the code-sharing commercial partnership Sky Team, which includes U.S. airline Delta (NYSE http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gifAL - News) and other airlines.

Air France and Alitalia are also expected to complete a previously announced share swap of two to three percent by the end of this year


------------------
dog food...whoops I mean snack

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KLMAirlines)
Virtual Airline Management Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirlineVirtualManagement)

*a QF here and an IB there, here a AA, there a BA, everywhere a ....?

An AFAZ idea, in other words.

EU: Serious Doubts Over Air France-Alitalia Route Pact

The European Commission has informed Air France and Alitalia that it has serious doubts that their cooperation agreement can be approved in its current form.

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/020701/200207010722000263_1.html

Alitalia says Air France share swap on course

Alitalia & AF are on course for their planned share swap, the Italian flag carrier's chief executive, Francesco Mengozzi, said on Monday.
"We will do everything we've been planning within the expected timeframe," Mengozzi told reporters.

He did not specify a date for the swap, which has been on the cards since Alitalia sealed an accord with Air France in July 2001, becoming a member of the SkyTeam marketing alliance.

SkyTeam involves member airlines, including U.S. carrier Delta Airlines (NYSE http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gifAL - News), sharing flight booking codes to link up their networks and extend their reach.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/021104/airlines_alitalia_1.html

Congratulations, doc! This must be in the running for oldest active thread.

Of course once AZ and AF get all the details squared away you just know it's all going to fall apart. Get ready to resurrect that AZ-KL thread.

------------------
...or passengers swim.

The termination of the joint venture between KLM Royal Dutch Airlines and Alitalia on April 28, 2000, resulted in a legal dispute that was presented to an arbitration tribunal in August of that year.

The tribunal has announced that it will present its findings to KLM and Alitalia on December 4, 2002, at the end of the afternoon. KLM will publish the tribunal’s finding and its response thereto in a press release.

Is this why the KLM shares have been suspended ?

Information source: http://www.forbes.com/technology/newswire/2002/12/04/rtr813074.html

Dutch flag airline KLM said on Wednesday that an arbitration court had granted an Alitalia claim for 250 million euros ($249.8 million) linked to their ditched alliance.

"The arbitration tribunal deciding the legal dispute between KLM and Alitalia concerning the termination of their Alliance Agreements on April 28, 2000 concluded that KLM's termination of its Alliance Agreements with Alitalia was not valid." the Dutch airline said in a statement.

"The arbitrators have granted Alitalia's claim for damages to the sum of 250 million euros (plus interest), but have dismissed Alitalia's additional claim to the sum of 43 million euros," it added.

KLM said the tribunal's award would have a "significant negative impact" on its profit-and-loss account for the current fiscal year and on its current cash position.

Information source: http://www.iii.co.uk/shares/?type=news&articleid=4557952&action=article


Alitalia SpA and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines lawyers are in contact over how KLM will pay the 150 mln eur awarded to Alitalia in an arbitration in December, said an Alitalia spokesman.
The arbitration award did not set any deadline by which KLM should make the payment despite reports that this should take place by end-February, he said.

"The situation is quite calm. In the sentence of the arbitration there is no end-January or February deadline. The lawyers of the parties are in contact to work out the payment terms," he said.

KLM could pay in cash or "other solutions are surely possible. We have to check these out," he said, noting that KLM is not alone among airlines in having financial problems after Sept 11.

On a possible entry of KLM into the Skyteam alliance, involving the US's Delta, Alitalia and Air France, he said first settling the arbitration payment is not a condition for KLM joining.

"The CEO (Francesco Mengozzi) said business is business and if KLM wants to come into Skyteam there are no vetos," he said, adding that settling the arbitration "would be an act of duty for KLM".

Information source: http://www.iii.co.uk/shares/?type=news&articleid=4561760&action=article


The Dutch carrier is currently in talks with Alitalia SpA to find a way to repay the arbitration settlement awarded to the Italian airline, he added. The settlement has a maximum impact on net income of 180 mln eur and a cash effect of no more than 180 mln in the fourth quarter.

Ruijter said the airlines are discussing a range of options including providing baggage handling services to Alitalia at KLM's Schiphol hub or converting the liability into a subordinated loan.

Following news that Northwest Airlines Corp, Continental Airlines and Delta Airlines Inc continue to pursue a proposed alliance, the CFO said KLM has heightened its talks with Air France on possible cooperation.

"By taking the action they're taking, they are showing their commitment to the alliance," he said.

He added that while KLM has enough cash to survive on its own for decades, the carrier would be "marginalized" if it does not hook up with an alliance in the next few years.

Information source: http://www.iii.co.uk/shares/?type=news&articleid=4566952&action=article


A spokesman for KLM Royal Dutch Airlines NV said the company will make a cash payment of maximum 175 mln eur today or tomorrow to Alitalia SpA, settling the suit over their collapsed joint venture.
In a statement last night, Alitalia set a deadline of tomorrow night for the payment, although this has not been confirmed to KLM, spokesman Jan Christian Hellendoorn said.

"We will make the payment though, today or tomorrow," he said.

An arbitration tribunal ruled last month that KLM must pay Alitalia a net 150 mln eur plus interest for settling their obligations after ending the joint venture.

After warning earlier this month that the penalty will likely pull it into an operating loss in the current fiscal year, KLM attempted to negotiate payment in kind with Alitalia, through possibly providing services at Schiphol airport to the Italian airline.

The Alitalia board rejected KLM's proposal for this, Hellendoorn said.

Following payment all outstanding obligations between the carriers are settled, the spokesman said.

The interest rate seem rather high to me http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif . I have no sympathy for Alitalia.

I booked 15 flights yesterday and when the word Aliatalie was mentioned the answer was "No *%% http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif%*&*(&&*&* way" I opted for the KLM open jaw

Alitalia Chairman Seeks Stronger Ties With Air France

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030912/1257000618_3.html

...Alitalia sees some of the answers to its problems in strengthening its alliance with Air France, said company chairman Guiseppe Bonomi. It is also eyeing a possible merger with another European airline.

http://news.airwise.com/stories/2003/09/1063625603.html

KLM says not in major talks with Alitalia

KLM is concentrating on its partnership talks with Air France and has not held any major discussions with Alitalia about bringing them on board, the Dutch airline said on Wednesday.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/030917/airlines_klm_alitalia_1.html

AF snubs AZ in KLM deal:

http://www.expatica.com/france.asp?pad=278,313,&item_id=34373

Mooted plans to take other airlines under its wing, in particular the Italian carrier Alitalia, have been grounded, Air France chief executive officer Jean-Cyril Spinetta told the Financial Times Tuesday.
Here's the link (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world_business/view/83156/1/.html)

Now, I have a personal feud with Alitalia and Malpensa and am very glad that Air France-KLM will not be saving them from the bottom of the financial abyss they found themselves in due to their incompetence.

So has KLM :D

Bringing in OK in the medium term has, however, been mooted. We would at last start to have a true multi-hub airline in Europe and true mileage runs would perhaps become possible?

The privatisation of Alitalia has long been an issue that needs to happen and Alitalia have been told that many times. It's now a few years on that KLM pulled out of the Alitalia KLM venture - all because of Alitalia's privitisation and development of the Malpensa hub - Alitalia are still no further down the road with either of these issues.

Groupe Air France are proposing that Czech airline CSA joins the Air France KLM group.
http://www.travel-mania.net/klmforum/showthread.php?t=218

This move will make good economic sense and give Air France KLM Group an east European hub, as well as a finger in the pie when it comes to revenues.

Czech Airlines is already owned by AF for 25%.

Alitalia may scrap Air France alliance

http://www.reuters.com/financeNewsArticle.jhtml?type=bondsNews&storyID=6191791

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3193857#post3193857

And what would the trouble be? As far as European flag carriers go, AZ is pretty crappy so no great loss.

I like the AZ routes and have flown on free tickets with them to Italy and Malta. The service was actually pretty good.

And what would the trouble be? As far as European flag carriers go, AZ is pretty crappy so no great loss.

I often fly AZ from BRU to FCO/MXP and normally enjoy their in-flight service (except when I occasionally end up at the back of a MD80 ...).

The main SkyTeam benefits for me are: Business Class check in (their Economy Class lines tend to be very long, especially in BRU); lounge access: in FCO the lounge is mostly quiet, with nice food and drinks, not forgetting the very comfy massage chairs :) ; and of course mileage accrual/spending.

My main problems with AZ are that they do not serve all Italian airports (e.g., OLB and AHO) and their tendency to strike every once in a while.

I wouldn't mind it.... I'l admit that the onboard service and meals weren't bad, but having had to connect at Malpensa is a nighmare. That place is a zoo.

Last time I was at Malpensa, AZ stranded me there for 24+ hours. I checked-in 2 hours before the flight but was at the gate 2 (two!) minutes after they called for me. I couldn't get out into the city because my single-entry visa was already used, I couldn't even get out the transit zone to buy another ticket. Oh, and there's no place you can legally smoke in the whole airport. And that was my birthday.

AZ said no, we cannot reroute you on a ST partner, we're only rebooking you for our next flight to SVO, tomorrow at the same time. And please don't be late. (The next day they delayed the flight for 1 1/2 hours, waiting for a drunk Swede to doze off - he didn't so they had to call in the police to drag him off the plane)

Never again

Last time I was at Malpensa, AZ stranded me there for 24+ hours. I checked-in 2 hours before the flight but was at the gate 2 (two!) minutes after they called for me.

Would it be entirely unreasonable to paraphrase your story as 'I missed my flight and they were NASTY to me'? :rolleyes:

Well yes I missed my flight because I was too busy killing my time at the airport and had no notion whatsoever that an airline would take off without a checked-in passenger. And they were really indifferent ...

(Frankly I don't get it - you call for a missing passenger not earlier than two minutes before closing the gate. Then you close the gate because you don't want to delay the flight. The next day you delay the flight for 90 minutes because of a drunk guy. And the same passenger happens to be on both flights, having spent a most miserable birthday in between. And you don't make any effort at all to reroute him on, say, Air France who have lots of connections to SVO throughout the day. Or CSA. Whatever.. That's the surest way to loose this passenger's business. I've never flown AZ since though they consistently offer the lowest fares from SVO to about anywhere in Europe)

Frankly I don't get it - you call for a missing passenger not earlier than two minutes before closing the gate. Then you close the gate because you don't want to delay the flight. The next day you delay the flight for 90 minutes because of a drunk guy.

That's because a drunk passenger on board is a potential safety hazard, whereas a missing passenger is not.

And you don't make any effort at all to reroute him on, say, Air France who have lots of connections to SVO throughout the day. Or CSA. Whatever..

So you had a flexible ticket that would've allowed this rerouting? Or were the AZ people actually doing you a favour?

So you had a flexible ticket that would've allowed this rerouting? Or were the AZ people actually doing you a favour?

They didn't do me a favour. I explained the situation and they just shrugged and said "Non si può" and rebooked me on AZ leaving the next day.

I can't tell you what type of ticket it was - I wasn't really paying any attention to the finer aspects of air travel back in 2002. Didn't even collect miles, come to think of it...

Just thought I'd mention that NW, CO and KLM all joined the skyteam alliance today, fyi. :) Hopefully that would help offset the potential loss of AZ (even though they're not in the same location, it's better than a kick in the arse...)

I guess it could help a little! ;)

Thanks! :)

-Mark

A local Italian newspaper reports a Berlusconi statement that AF/KLM is eager to acquire Alitalia. The acquisition would create the biggest and best airline in Europe according to Berlusconi. He further stated that Alitalia would bring in an excellent network, fine service and a young fleet with economical issues currently being solved for Alitalia. Berlusconi's Italian government would do its best to make the bride beauty for the acquisition.

AF/KLM is eager to acquire Alitalia. (...) Berlusconi's Italian government would do its best to make the bride beauty for the acquisition.

SCARY. EXTREMELY SCARY!!!

A local Italian newspaper reports a Berlusconi statement that AF/KLM is eager to acquire Alitalia.

This is no more than wishful thinking by Berlusconi.

. The acquisition would create the biggest and best airline in Europe .


Biggest , well maybe. The BEST ?????? :D :D L.M.A.O

Not a chance in Hell !!

Two things.

1. This is very old news. This merger has been talked about for quite a while. It's not going to happen anytime soon.

2. I rank AF as the current best airline in Europe, based on the FF program, costs, service and routes. BA is better in some ways, but their FF program is terrible and their costs are high. And no one has anywhere near as many routes as the new AF.

Given time, KLM will be fully absorbed into AF. The same could happen to AZ, but I'm not holding my breath.

urmmm..

"quote


stimpy Two things.

1. This is very old news. This merger has been talked about for quite a while. It's not going to happen anytime soon.

2. I rank AF as the current best airline in Europe, based on the FF program, costs, service and routes. BA is better in some ways, but their FF program is terrible and their costs are high. And no one has anywhere near as many routes as the new AF.

Given time, KLM will be fully absorbed into AF. The same could happen to AZ, but I'm not holding my breath

"end quote ..!!


First this is not old news, it is quite new,

next... If you think AF is the best airline in europe then you need some help !
as they are quite rubbish ..yes come on ...they are

if fd KLM was to be fully absorbed into af that would be so bad ,it would be untrue. as f+ is so much worse to KLM FD and all us frequent flyers do NOT want that !!

next... If you think AF is the best airline in europe then you need some help !
as they are quite rubbish ..yes come on ...they are

if fd KLM was to be fully absorbed into af that would be so bad ,it would be untrue. as f+ is so much worse to KLM FD and all us frequent flyers do NOT want that !!

I really don't see the point in that. There are a good few reasons why AF is, overall, the best European airline. The majority of pax must think so since this is clearly reflected in their balance sheets. True, FD may have some special features but AF's programme is far more straightforward and doesn't keep changing all the time. Personally I find that FD as well as service on KL (both inflight and ground-service) has steadily been going downhill. This hasn't been the case with AF who have kept full in-flight service on most flights and offer a better product (incl. proper business class) altogether.

First this is not old news, it is quite new,

next... If you think AF is the best airline in europe then you need some help !
as they are quite rubbish ..yes come on ...they are

if fd KLM was to be fully absorbed into af that would be so bad ,it would be untrue. as f+ is so much worse to KLM FD and all us frequent flyers do NOT want that !!

It's not news. Go back here on Flyertalk or in most any Euro newspaper and you can find this story repeated ever since the AF/KLM merger hit the news.

How often do you fly in Europe? I did over 100 segments last year, mostly on AF, but a lot on KL, LH, SK, BA, BD, IB, AZ, JK, and others. As I said above, BA is better in some respects, but their prices are too high and their FF program is terrible. I should disclose that I am a US member of F+ which helps on the threshold a bit, but the rest of the program seems to be the same.

Well let me think how much I fly in Europe , more than you mate ! , KLM 120 segments or so, lufthansa 30 segments, BA/EI /AA about 20. plus alot of other european carriers, SAS, Swiss , but anyway back to the point in question...

I agree that KL's FD program is no way as good as it has been in the past and has been getting worse ever since the AF merger... And has had little or no stability.

You are right to say it is old news but it HAS been reprinted recently in a number of european news papers !

As far as BA prices are high,? well if you take a look at there website they have a sale on at the moment and for the most part are cheaper on some routes than most other european carriers ! I agree with you on there FF program as it IS pants low miles or no miles for most of the lower ticket classes, AA's is a lot better as far as One world programs go as it has segment qualification to get to higher membership. ..

As far as AF being cheap , well not on the KL or AF website , AF is more expensive as far as some routes that I use regually .

As far as the original title, AF merging with Alitlia, does AF have enough money to do this after the KL merger ? I dont think so at the moment ! The AF piggie bank is a little light at the moment :rolleyes:

As far as the original title, AF merging with Alitlia, does AF have enough money to do this after the KL merger ? I dont think so at the moment ! The AF piggie bank is a little light at the moment :rolleyes:
Let's not make this a "whose is bigger" contest, shall we? ;)

i'd like to see info on AF's light piggie bank as that's contrary to about everything I've read in recent months. I may be wrong, of course, so I'd be curious to read up!

First off, I said "in Europe" and I guess I should have been clearer and said within Europe (Europe-to-Europe) which excludes AA. I have lots more flights in and out of Europe I wasn't counting. But anyhow, it sounds like you have plenty of flight experience at least on KLM. Have you tried AF much in the last year? They are vastly improved.

Also when I was referring to BA's high prices, I meant Club Europe tickets. Recently I went to LHR T4 and tried to buy a last minute ticket to AMS. BA cost over 200 pounds more than KLM. Granted the BA product is much better, but not that much!

As for AF's balance sheet, I'm not a CFO, but by every report I've read recently they are flush with cash and the most profitable large airline out there. Another year from now with more expense reductions kicking in they will have lots more money. I believe their share price as done quite well too which would be the real currency for buying Alitalia.

Yes I have tried AF , last year I took a MAN TXL due to a new business travel agent putting us on AF insted of KL as it was about 20/30 pound cheaper
Well the flights were fine in Y , food a bit bad but inter europe is pretty much all bad , wine was good though :) , on the down side , the band for which I was traveling to do a concert in berlin that night ,were firstly charged £500 excess at MAN ,not that that bothers me but it did my employer
Then after a CDG transfer they lost the lot !! every last one out of 12 items ! so not only charge excess but lost the lot ! top marks , ( ps we also get this alot with KL , 9/10 times in 2004 ! ) then they find it just in time to miss the concert so the band then had to hire extra kit at cost to them which AF never did cover !
So on the way back they also loose it all aswell as charging us about 750 euro ! So yes have tried them , may try again for personal travel, but will not send anything down to the hold !! :)

PS this was before the KL merger in which we all 9 of us Plat elites travelling would not have been charged the excess anyway !


PPS I am know that kl have topped lost luggage tables in recent articles and this may have been a one off , but it was not a good start, first impressions are very important... after that the band told the Agent not to use AF again !

on the down side , the band for which I was traveling to do a concert in berlin that night ,were firstly charged £500 excess at MAN ,not that that bothers me but it did my employer
Then after a CDG transfer they lost the lot !! every last one out of 12 items ! so not only charge excess but lost the lot ! top marks , ( ps we also get this alot with KL , 9/10 times in 2004 ! ) then they find it just in time to miss the concert so the band then had to hire extra kit at cost to them which AF never did cover !
So on the way back they also loose it all aswell as charging us about 750 euro ! So yes have tried them , may try again for personal travel, but will not send anything down to the hold !! :)

PS this was before the KL merger in which we all 9 of us Plat elites travelling would not have been charged the excess anyway !


PPS I am know that kl have topped lost luggage tables in recent articles and this may have been a one off , but it was not a good start, first impressions are very important... after that the band told the Agent not to use AF again !

Having spent over 8 years as a promoter in London (not any longer, enough was enough!) I've booked many, many bands onto flights that took them around Europe. You're going to hate me saying this, but the one European airline who never once lost anybody's equipment was EasyJet. If your luggage is more important to you than miles, upgrades, meals and all the other 'comforts' that you get with AF - I'd forego AF and go with them.

You are right Eazyjet being a point to point airline have a better chance of not lossing stuff ! But you get stung right royally with excess !

PS Dont say Eazyjet to loudly as the Bands promoters may get ideas !! :D

You're going to hate me saying this, but the one European airline who never once lost anybody's equipment was EasyJet. If your luggage is more important to you than miles, upgrades, meals and all the other 'comforts' that you get with AF - I'd forego AF and go with them.

I have friends who fly Easydeath quite often and have had their stuff damaged on more than one occasion. Good luck trying to make EZY pay up! Also Easyjet's dreadful rostering practices mean that you will often be flown by exhausted pilots (have a quick look at pprune if you want to find more details about this), which is not a good thing!

Didn't KLM and Alitalia almost merge several years ago? If memory serves, the deal fell apart because Alitalia fell woefully behind schedule on a list of promised improvements. I'm surprised AF/KLM is considering it again.

German fvw reports today in its online edition (partly quote):

Nach einem Bericht der italienischen Wirtschaftszeitung „Finanza & Mercati“ von heute strebt Air France-KLM die Übernahme von Italiens größter Fluggesellschaft an. Der Börsenkurs von Alitalia war am Montag um 3,7 Prozent und am Dienstag um rund zehn Prozent gestiegen.
Konkret kommentiert Air France die aktuellen Übernahmegerüchte nicht. Stattdessen verweisen die Franzosen auf ein Statement ihres Chairman Jean-Cyril Spinetta von Ende November 2005: „Wir werden unsere Zwei-Prozent-Beteiligung behalten.“

Seems uncertain at best. From Reuters:
1134GMT05JAN06/UPDATE 1-(Adds background, shares)
ROME, Jan 5 (Reuters) – Alitalia denied on Thursday reports it was accelerating merger talks with Air France-KLM.
“We reiterate that the two airline companies are continuing their merger plan according to the framework already set out within the context of the SkyTeam alliance, and there is no plan being looked at for a short-term merger of Alitalia and Air France as reported in the press,” Alitalia’s spokesman said.
Alitalia shares have risen 20 percent in the last five days, the second-highest gainer in Milan’s all-share index.
Italian newspapers had speculated the jump could be due to renewed discussions with Air France-KLM about on-off merger plans. Merger talk had cooled in recent months as Alitalia undertakes a restructuring programme vital to its survival.
Alitalia shares traded down 2.9 percent at 1.1 euros after the denial.
Newspapers also reported that several funds had also recently bought into the stock.
MFL

Rough translation of fvw article quoted in first post:

Italian newspaper „Finanza & Mercati“ reports today that AF/KL is aiming at taking over AZ. Stocks of AZ are up 3,7% on Monday and 10% on Tuesday. AF won't comment on the rumors but instead refer to a statement of Spineta of Nov. 05 "we will continue to hold the 2% stake we currently hold".

Interesting but not entirely surprising news given the history of the wedding plans between KLM and Allitalia and flirtations between Allitalia and AF.

Maybe now some return can be made from the enormous "down payment" KLM was forced by the courts to make to Allitalia after breaking off the engagement.

Would be too bad for full-miles-earning flying though...

They were hoping to do the deal this week but no one had any loose change on them :)

Fascinating how things work in France.

PARIS, Aug 18 (Reuters) - France is considering proposing to Italy a tie-up between airlines Air France-KLM (AIRF.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) and Alitalia (AZPIa.MI: Quote, Profile, Research) in exchange for Italy's Enel (ENEI.MI: Quote, Profile, Research) renouncing any intention to bid for French utility Suez (LYOE.PA: Quote, Profile, Research), Le Parisien newspaper reported on Friday.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlebusiness.aspx?type=basicIndustries&storyID=nL18818999&from=business

Nov. 23 (Bloomberg) -- Air France-KLM Group, Europe's biggest
airline, restarted talks with Alitalia SpA about a takeover, the
third major carrier to announce merger negotiations in eight days.
Shares of Air France fell as much as 7.3 percent, the biggest
decline in more than three years, on the Alitalia discussions.
Investors were also disappointed that Air France didn't increase
its full-year earnings forecast after second-quarter profit,
excluding a year-earlier gain on an asset sale, rose 26 percent.
``The share drop reflects some profit-taking but far more the
comments about ongoing talks with Alitalia,'' said Andrew
Lobbenberg, an analyst at ABN Amro in London with a ``hold'' rating
on Air France. ``That merger would not be well received by the
market.''
Chief Executive Officer Jean-Cyril Spinetta, 63, who led Air
France's purchase of KLM in 2004, said today at a Paris press
conference that ``exploratory'' discussions have begun on
purchasing Alitalia. Qantas Airways Ltd., Australia's biggest
airline, yesterday received a takeover approach from Macquarie Ban
Ltd. and Texas Pacific Group. US Airways Group Inc. bid last week
for Delta Air Lines Inc.
Shares of Air France fell as much 2.35 euros to 29.90 euros
and were down 6.6 percent at 12:08 p.m. in Paris. The stock is up
67 percent this year. Alitalia, Italy's government-controlled
carrier, rose 3.2 percent to 97 cents.
``After the recent sharp rise in the share price, one might
have anticipated some improvement in the guidance for the full
year,'' said Christopher Avery, an analyst at JP Morgan in London
with a ``neutral'' rating on Air France shares. ``The market is a
little disappointed with its absence.''

Other comments here (http://fr.biz.yahoo.com/23112006/155/air-france-klm-et-alitalia-ont-ouvert-des-discussions-en.html) , sorry, in french only.

Officialy, obviously AF-KL has done nothing "official". I imagine the loss of the share is currently painful enough. Seems that Italian administration is currently not so keen, a way to rise the bid ?

And, btw, respectful question to mods : where should be the correct location of this thread ? Leaving it on AF board is somewhat restrictive for me, the strategy involves all the AF-KL group...

bad bad news! leave Alitalia out of this. Does AF/KL really want them? WHY??? KL quickly forgot, didn't they .... Even paying 1 EUR would be too much. Just my 2 cents.

And, btw, respectful question to mods : where should be the correct location of this thread ? Leaving it on AF board is somewhat restrictive for me, the strategy involves all the AF-KL group...
Done :)

Done :)

Whaou !!! Your'e the Lucky Luke of this board ;)

So, forget PM linked... I could imagine that you are sometimes elsewhere... :cool: Sorry :eek:

Interesting. Weren't there rumours AF-KL taking over OS too? Seems like the battle over Europe. LH vs. AF-KL. :)

But AZ... who would really want to buy that? Old aircraft, striking crew. Loosing money. Probably a decent market though. Rome - Milan is one of Europe's largest routes...

Interesting. Weren't there rumours AF-KL taking over OS too? Seems like the battle over Europe. LH vs. AF-KL. :)
AF has sold its stake in OS

But AZ... who would really want to buy that? Old aircraft, striking crew. Loosing money. Probably a decent market though. Rome - Milan is one of Europe's largest routes...
I think you are right on the market side. It could be dangerous to give away the Italian market to a non-SkyTeam partner. But if anyone understands the risks involved and the challenge turning around AZ would represent, and yet could still pull it off, I believe it would be JCS.

But AZ... who would really want to buy that? Old aircraft, striking crew. Loosing money.

... so was AF in the past...(I would say for 15 years)

but of course I would have prefer OS. :)

By the remarks that get repeatedly thrown around on here by people, I am certain AZ needs a makeover. I wonder how many people that slam AZ have actually flown AZ in the past few years.
As an active flyer (I am North American therefore very accustomed to a high-level of customer service) and having flown over 30 segments on AZ alone this year, I am struck by how my experience on them is so vastly different than other people on here. I've had one seriously delayed flight (MXP-IST.. some people had bags loaded but failed to get on the plane, so had to wait for them to find their bags and take them off before we could get in the air.. about 1 hour delay). I have never flown on a filthy plane. In fact, almost all intra-European flights are now on A320 or A321 aircraft and are clean, newer and quite comfortable. The food has been a step ahead of KL, LH, and BA (airlines I've flown this year in C and Y classes). AF food is always a bit better in my opinion. Milan has got to be one of the easiest airports to transit in. Compared to the nightmare of CDG or FRA, MXP is a god-send. I've never been mistreated or harrassed by any AZ staff. Can't say the same about AF staff or god-forbid the nasty lounge dragons in AMS. In fact, the in-flight crew of AZ are smartly dressed, highly-trained, very kind and gracious and always willing to give an extra cup of coffee or coke. This is in sharp contrast to the disinterested AF crew or the droll LH hags. I cannot tell you how many flights departing VCE to MXP or FCO to make a connection and being it is such a short flight, the crew bounces up, and pops open several bottles of good prosecco and pours everyone a nice glass of bubbly. When was the last time that happened to you on BA?
Ok, so, AZ is not a perfect little utopia. They did permanently lose my bag once, but it is possible someone stole it from luggage claim without my knowledge. It did take 5 months to receive the $1770 that I was entitled to. However, I did get it. Their international fleet (except 777s) is tired and needs to be scrapped in favour or newer planes. And FCO is not my favourite airport in the world. In fact, it rates near the bottom of the pack.
I guess I am looking for how AZ is sooooo terrible compared to the other big Euro-carriers like AF, KL, LH, and BA. I'd say that AZ is better in many areas and worse in a few others. Just my 2 centissimi!

By the remarks that get repeatedly thrown around on here by people, I am certain AZ needs a makeover. I wonder how many people that slam AZ have actually flown AZ in the past few years.
As an active flyer (I am North American therefore very accustomed to a high-level of customer service) and having flown over 30 segments on AZ alone this year, I am struck by how my experience on them is so vastly different than other people on here. I've had one seriously delayed flight (MXP-IST.. some people had bags loaded but failed to get on the plane, so had to wait for them to find their bags and take them off before we could get in the air.. about 1 hour delay). I have never flown on a filthy plane. In fact, almost all intra-European flights are now on A320 or A321 aircraft and are clean, newer and quite comfortable. The food has been a step ahead of KL, LH, and BA (airlines I've flown this year in C and Y classes). AF food is always a bit better in my opinion. Milan has got to be one of the easiest airports to transit in. Compared to the nightmare of CDG or FRA, MXP is a god-send. I've never been mistreated or harrassed by any AZ staff. Can't say the same about AF staff or god-forbid the nasty lounge dragons in AMS. In fact, the in-flight crew of AZ are smartly dressed, highly-trained, very kind and gracious and always willing to give an extra cup of coffee or coke. This is in sharp contrast to the disinterested AF crew or the droll LH hags. I cannot tell you how many flights departing VCE to MXP or FCO to make a connection and being it is such a short flight, the crew bounces up, and pops open several bottles of good prosecco and pours everyone a nice glass of bubbly. When was the last time that happened to you on BA?
Ok, so, AZ is not a perfect little utopia. They did permanently lose my bag once, but it is possible someone stole it from luggage claim without my knowledge. It did take 5 months to receive the $1770 that I was entitled to. However, I did get it. Their international fleet (except 777s) is tired and needs to be scrapped in favour or newer planes. And FCO is not my favourite airport in the world. In fact, it rates near the bottom of the pack.
I guess I am looking for how AZ is sooooo terrible compared to the other big Euro-carriers like AF, KL, LH, and BA. I'd say that AZ is better in many areas and worse in a few others. Just my 2 centissimi!

A number of good points. I would probably disagree with two. MXP is a far smaller hub to connect through than FRA, LHR or CDG and probably easier. But I did miss several connections there when traffic was disrupted by fog. (oh, well, I then had the time to look at the Etro shirts ;) in the shop there) With respect to staff, I have seldom had a problem onboard AF, but I did find several AZ FA to be "moody" or disinterested. Just my 2 own centimes ;)

Old aircraft, striking crew. Loosing money. Probably a decent market though. Rome - Milan is one of Europe's largest routes...

Old aircraft... I'm not an expert, but when I land in MXP, I see mostly (at least for EU routes) A320 and B80 ; is it so much obsolete ? Except error, I see two fleets with this kind of equipment, AA, and SK ; any reason for blushing ? In these case, KL aircrafts would be in a museum, inside bottles filled with formaldehyde...
On another hand, i tried a couple of times booking a Y ticket on LIN (or MXP, I'm not sure)/FCO on AZ; what I'm sure of is that ticket was half what I would have payed for TLS-PAR, this may be explaining a part of EBIT concerns...

Almost all of the M80s you see at MXP are intra-Italy or going to not so distant locations in Eastern Europe like BUD, BUH, or WAW. The nicest thing about these old birds is C class, with American-style 2 across seating. The only intra-Italy flights not operated by M80s is the MXP-FCO route.
Yes, that damned fog at MXP is no fun, but then again, neither is the constant fog/rain of AMS or worse, any weather at LHR T4.
The striking and all that nonsense is the fault of this silly Italian government that refuses to get a spine and stand up to the all-too-powerful labour unions. In fact, most of the time, the strikes are general strikes called by some transportation union and if the flight attendants don't participate, they get cement boots on the next layover to Naples. Ok, that's a stretch and being a little silly, admittedly. Nonetheless, the strikes in Italy are a nuisance. I especially love how we get a months notice and they always seem to occur on a Monday or Friday with the occasional Thursday so they can do a "ponte" through Friday to the weekend. Ohhh, how clever they are, sfigati!
As for AF, I am French-Canadien and French is my native tongue. I've travelled so much in France that I am mostly mistaken for being Parisian, not Canadien. :-) However, on long-haul and short-haul flights on AF, even when speaking flawless French, I am so surprised at how crap the service on the ground is. Particularly, one time in Paris, I was speaking English (without a French accent, mind you) to a colleague. The GA spoke into the microphone but there was so much noise happening that we could not hear what she said. I approached the GA and asked her in English if she could tell me what she had said. She repeated what she said, in a very obnoxious way, turned to her colleague as I turned away and said in French "that people like me that ask these stupid questions make her hate her job". I quickly re-approached her and spoke in flawless French that I understood everything she said and took offence to it. She just stood there, looked at me, blinked, and turned to her co-worker and laughed. On another occasion, I was in C from ATH-CDG. The only meal boarded for us for dinner was fish. Well, I am allergic to fish. I told this to the FA to then said, "I guess you won't be eating then, now, will you?" When another FA walked past, I asked her if there was something from Y class I could possibly have. I was starving, mind you. I explained I was allergic to fish. She went up to the F class galley, came back and said, "My colleague already offered you a meal and you declined, so there is nothing else for you." Hmmmmm.. I walked back to rear galley and spoke to the other FA. He was preparing a drink for someone. I asked him if there was anything sans poisson for me to eat. He cheerfully handed me what Y class had eaten - a nice risotto with chicken and peas. How hard was that? I had to work overtime to feed myself! Now, I love the French and I absolutely love France and I travel there about once a month. This is not France/French-bashing. Just repeated paltry service from AF all-around. Mind you, the AF people in VCE are great. Awesome staff!

delete post

The only intra-Italy flights not operated by M80s is the MXP-FCO route.

Huh? So all those horrible ATR-72's were in fact M80's? Or MXP to PEG is now international?

With all its dirtyish planes, gloomy FA's and seriously ugly hubs, AZ is still cheap and all their fares earn 100% in FB so yes, my next ST trip is on Alitalia as well. Just let's not pretend they are a fine carrier

I believe AF can pull this off if they want to.

But, there needs to be involvement from everyone. The situation AZ has right now is pretty much the same as what AF had in 1994. AZ staff would need to take a similar approach to what those at AF have become used to.

What I believe would happen if AF does get their hand on AZ:

-Shut down the MXP hub. Even though it does generate more yield than FCO, that could easily be tunneled through CDG, AMS or FCO.
-Expanding operations as much as possible in LIN (capacity increases, frequency) to core european cities which can sustain business class and O&D. MXP could still be used for some non-essential Point-to-Point services such as Northern Africa, Iberian peninsula, Greece/Turkey, Israel, vacation destinations.
-Get rid of the whole fleet of MD80s
-Bring the remainder of the fleet from MXP to FCO, expand Airbus A32S fleet if needed.
-Phase out ATR72s to a franchise or disguard them totally as probably of limited use from FCO anyways. Use EMB 170/145 for slimmer routes.
-Replace the 767s with A330s (better than keeping them for another 10 years until they can get slots for a 787 or 350)
-Use FCO to its full potential. By having true arrival/departure banks. Not random departure times for european/north africa/middle east flights. Increase frequencies on core routes in order to maximise feed.

What I meant to say was that the MD80s that are seen in MXP are intra-Italy or the odd Eastern European route. The MXP-FCO route is the only intra-Italy route to use the A320/321 instead of the MD80. There are some ATR72s and AlitaliaExpress flights using Embraers intra-Italy to places like Trieste, Ancona, or Bari.
Please pardon my mistake.

Huh? So all those horrible ATR-72's were in fact M80's? Or MXP to PEG is now international?

With all its dirtyish planes, gloomy FA's and seriously ugly hubs, AZ is still cheap and all their fares earn 100% in FB so yes, my next ST trip is on Alitalia as well. Just let's not pretend they are a fine carrier

Almost all of the M80s you see at MXP are intra-Italy or going to not so distant locations in Eastern Europe like BUD, BUH, or WAW. The nicest thing about these old birds is C class, with American-style 2 across seating. The only intra-Italy flights not operated by M80s is the MXP-FCO route.
Yes, that damned fog at MXP is no fun, but then again, neither is the constant fog/rain of AMS or worse, any weather at LHR T4.
The striking and all that nonsense is the fault of this silly Italian government that refuses to get a spine and stand up to the all-too-powerful labour unions. In fact, most of the time, the strikes are general strikes called by some transportation union and if the flight attendants don't participate, they get cement boots on the next layover to Naples. Ok, that's a stretch and being a little silly, admittedly. Nonetheless, the strikes in Italy are a nuisance. I especially love how we get a months notice and they always seem to occur on a Monday or Friday with the occasional Thursday so they can do a "ponte" through Friday to the weekend. Ohhh, how clever they are, sfigati!
As for AF, I am French-Canadien and French is my native tongue. I've travelled so much in France that I am mostly mistaken for being Parisian, not Canadien. :-) However, on long-haul and short-haul flights on AF, even when speaking flawless French, I am so surprised at how crap the service on the ground is. Particularly, one time in Paris, I was speaking English (without a French accent, mind you) to a colleague. The GA spoke into the microphone but there was so much noise happening that we could not hear what she said. I approached the GA and asked her in English if she could tell me what she had said. She repeated what she said, in a very obnoxious way, turned to her colleague as I turned away and said in French "that people like me that ask these stupid questions make her hate her job". I quickly re-approached her and spoke in flawless French that I understood everything she said and took offence to it. She just stood there, looked at me, blinked, and turned to her co-worker and laughed. On another occasion, I was in C from ATH-CDG. The only meal boarded for us for dinner was fish. Well, I am allergic to fish. I told this to the FA to then said, "I guess you won't be eating then, now, will you?" When another FA walked past, I asked her if there was something from Y class I could possibly have. I was starving, mind you. I explained I was allergic to fish. She went up to the F class galley, came back and said, "My colleague already offered you a meal and you declined, so there is nothing else for you." Hmmmmm.. I walked back to rear galley and spoke to the other FA. He was preparing a drink for someone. I asked him if there was anything sans poisson for me to eat. He cheerfully handed me what Y class had eaten - a nice risotto with chicken and peas. How hard was that? I had to work overtime to feed myself! Now, I love the French and I absolutely love France and I travel there about once a month. This is not France/French-bashing. Just repeated paltry service from AF all-around. Mind you, the AF people in VCE are great. Awesome staff!

The MD80s are more widely used than you make it sound like, remember they have 75 of those horrible machines.

They operate on quite a bit of the European network: LHR, CDG, AMS, MAD, VLC, BCN, ATH, BRU, NCE, PRG, CPH, ARN, WAW, SKG, TIA, SOF, OTP.

Also to northern africa: ALG, TUN.

I'm sure I've left some out. But still they do get around.

Shut down MXP?? Are you mad??? 70% of all Italian business takes place in northern Italy. It also has the vast majority of the Italian population. With over 35 million Italians living within 2 1/2 hours of MXP, it is the heart and soul of transportation to/from northern Italy. The Veneto alone has more venture capitalist investment than than the whole of Germany! If anything, expand at MXP! The yields are higher, the revenues are higher. Rome has been overtaken by AirOne. LIN is a terrible airport with absolutely 0 international service. MXP is the only viable international airport in northern Italy.
Rome is not growing, while the whole of northern Italy is growing quickly. Unemployment in my province is under 3% which is a fair representation of the entire northeast. While Piemonte (Torino) is not sitting as pretty, 5.5% unemployment suggests a more robust economy than any area of France or Germany.
Italy is the #3 destination to Europe for North Americans (after France and UK). Shutting down MXP to international flights and instead relegating them to connections in AMS/CDG/FCO puts lots of people on double connects. Not acceptable. It adversely effects the economy of all of Italy then. Just look at the loads of flights nonstop to US from MXP. Consistently, full full full. There is a reason!

I believe AF can pull this off if they want to.

But, there needs to be involvement from everyone. The situation AZ has right now is pretty much the same as what AF had in 1994. AZ staff would need to take a similar approach to what those at AF have become used to.

What I believe would happen if AF does get their hand on AZ:

-Shut down the MXP hub. Even though it does generate more yield than FCO, that could easily be tunneled through CDG, AMS or FCO.
-Expanding operations as much as possible in LIN (capacity increases, frequency) to core european cities which can sustain business class and O&D. MXP could still be used for some non-essential Point-to-Point services such as Northern Africa, Iberian peninsula, Greece/Turkey, Israel, vacation destinations.
-Get rid of the whole fleet of MD80s
-Bring the remainder of the fleet from MXP to FCO, expand Airbus A32S fleet if needed.
-Phase out ATR72s to a franchise or disguard them totally as probably of limited use from FCO anyways. Use EMB 170/145 for slimmer routes.
-Replace the 767s with A330s (better than keeping them for another 10 years until they can get slots for a 787 or 350)
-Use FCO to its full potential. By having true arrival/departure banks. Not random departure times for european/north africa/middle east flights. Increase frequencies on core routes in order to maximise feed.

I have native WorldSpan and just pulled up all of the cities you mentioned.
While OTP, SOF, TIA, and WAW are in Eastern Europe, which I mentioned.
And yes, TUN and ALG are served also by the MD80s. Actually flew MXP-TUN this past April. Delightful flight.
Previously, to ATH, they were flying A320s from MXP and MD80s from FCO. Seems they've changed this. All the flights to BCN from MXP are A321. 4 out of 16 flights from FCO/MXP to CDG are MD80. These old birds are a much better ride than a silly AF Fokker 100. I avoid them like the plague after they started dropping out of the sky like bird poo.

The MD80s are more widely used than you make it sound like, remember they have 75 of those horrible machines.

They operate on quite a bit of the European network: LHR, CDG, AMS, MAD, VLC, BCN, ATH, BRU, NCE, PRG, CPH, ARN, WAW, SKG, TIA, SOF, OTP.

Also to northern africa: ALG, TUN.

I'm sure I've left some out. But still they do get around.

Shut down MXP?? Are you mad??? 70% of all Italian business takes place in northern Italy. It also has the vast majority of the Italian population. With over 35 million Italians living within 2 1/2 hours of MXP, it is the heart and soul of transportation to/from northern Italy. The Veneto alone has more venture capitalist investment than than the whole of Germany! If anything, expand at MXP! The yields are higher, the revenues are higher. Rome has been overtaken by AirOne. LIN is a terrible airport with absolutely 0 international service. MXP is the only viable international airport in northern Italy.
Rome is not growing, while the whole of northern Italy is growing quickly. Unemployment in my province is under 3% which is a fair representation of the entire northeast. While Piemonte (Torino) is not sitting as pretty, 5.5% unemployment suggests a more robust economy than any area of France or Germany.
Italy is the #3 destination to Europe for North Americans (after France and UK). Shutting down MXP to international flights and instead relegating them to connections in AMS/CDG/FCO puts lots of people on double connects. Not acceptable. It adversely effects the economy of all of Italy then. Just look at the loads of flights nonstop to US from MXP. Consistently, full full full. There is a reason!

I'm fully aware of how important MXP is for the economy.

Yet MXP is also probably too close for comfort to CDG and AMS. FCO will also fill up planes in the rear whereas it is doubtful that MXP can do it that well on O&D.

It is also probably easier to convince a FCO based politician to close down MXP rather than FCO. An Alitalia not at FCO is quite unthinkable, not at MXP isn't that far fetched.

If LIN were so terrible then everyone would be running to MXP. They aren't. When there is an alternative people pick LIN, much more convenient. Just look at it. More flights to LHR and FCO from LIN. The yield is that much higher on those routes. MXP would probably keep a few flights (JFK, plus whatever else works well without connective traffic). Where Linate loses out is that it can't work as a hub at all (too small, too central).

Double connects are quite rare. Unless you are going to either a very far away place or a smaller city, you can already get to the most important cities on a one-stop through any major hub. (Certainly in Europe/USA from MXP that is already true).

I have native WorldSpan and just pulled up all of the cities you mentioned.
While OTP, SOF, TIA, and WAW are in Eastern Europe, which I mentioned.
And yes, TUN and ALG are served also by the MD80s. Actually flew MXP-TUN this past April. Delightful flight.
Previously, to ATH, they were flying A320s from MXP and MD80s from FCO. Seems they've changed this. All the flights to BCN from MXP are A321. 4 out of 16 flights from FCO/MXP to CDG are MD80. These old birds are a much better ride than a silly AF Fokker 100. I avoid them like the plague after they started dropping out of the sky like bird poo.

The (AF) Regional F100s are fortunately soon a memory of the past.

The MD80 list I gave includes flights from MXP, LIN and FCO.

You'll find for example that:
-All FCO-BCN (4x daily) is MD80
-Out of the 13 (MXP/LIN/FCO)-LHRs 3 are MD80s (not that much, but still seeing people's faces who expect an A321 and get into that is always priceless).
-CDG-LIN 3/4 AZ are MD80

My point isn't really on the frequencies. More that they still fly around Europe. The MD80s are really subpar compared to any A32S and probably make most people run away from flying AZ again if there is competition on the route.

Well, I wholeheartedly disagree with you here. MXP is far enough away from CDG and AMS to provide good connecter service throughout southern and eastern Europe, Middle East, nothern Africa.
As for double-connects, my friend, you aren't correct. Over 30% of the population of the US would require a double-connect to get to Milan, even WITH JFK-nonstops. Denver, Phoenix, Dallas, San Antonio, Austin, San Diego, Portland OR, Salt Lake City, Kansas City, St Louis, New Orleans, Omaha, Oklahoma City, Cleveland, Minneapolis/St Paul, etc.. none of these have feeder service on Skyteam carriers (for through fares connecting to AZ only.. not DL). All of these cities are 500,000+.. Take out the JFK AZ nonstops and now everyone has to fly DL through ATL or JFK.
As for convincing an FCO based politician about AZ, may I remind you that northern Italy controls the Italian government. Piemonte, Lombardia, Emilia-Romagna, Veneto, Friuli, Valle d'Aoste, Liguria, and Trentino have the votes, not Lazio (the region where Rome is located). There is a fierce bias and dislike of the southern/central Italians by the northern Italians. They will do anything and everything to protect what they have in the north.

I'm fully aware of how important MXP is for the economy.

Yet MXP is also probably too close for comfort to CDG and AMS. FCO will also fill up planes in the rear whereas it is doubtful that MXP can do it that well on O&D.

It is also probably easier to convince a FCO based politician to close down MXP rather than FCO. An Alitalia not at FCO is quite unthinkable, not at MXP isn't that far fetched.

If LIN were so terrible then everyone would be running to MXP. They aren't. When there is an alternative people pick LIN, much more convenient. Just look at it. More flights to LHR and FCO from LIN. The yield is that much higher on those routes. MXP would probably ke