Not satisfied with declassifying PIT as a hub (after the county BUILT that white elephant of a terminal at US's request (read: demand), nor with reducing the number of flights out of PIT since 9/11 by 70%, they are now taking away (albeit slowly) our non-stops to the left coast.

I was booking my weekly flights PIT-LAX out through the end of September when I noticed that I wasn't able to get flight 1454 back to Pittsburgh from 9/1 forward. I called a Chairman's rep and was told that yes, there were no non-stops from LAX to PIT as of September.

I'm sure it won't be long until PIT is just another station like BNA with service to some hubs. Enjoy it while you can. The discounters rule at PIT just like BNA.

I can book PITLAX nonstop through the last day of booking window i.e. 7/2/08as of today. You must be misinformed.

I'm looking at flights PIT-LAX-PIT, Sept 28 & Oct 5. 8:40am non-stop on 9/28 and 11:50am non-stop return on Oct 5. The evening out/red-eye back are gone. I checked December dates and the daytime flights are gone and the evenings are back. I've been flying out 3 or 4 times a year the past couple years and they usually cutback to 1 non-stop each way in the winter. This year it looks like it was a little earlier.

They did the same thing to BWI...and now WN owns it. Prepare for the same thing to happen in PIT. More brown/blue/orange planes that blue/grey ones....

It's almost that bad in PHL now too...Last time I counted about 9 WN planes parked to the 15 or so US had...what I could see from the hotel, anyway...

One has to ask if you prefer the convenience of a hub or if you prefer the lower price that comes with additional competition. US was able to maintain the PIT hub despite its smaller market size because it was able to supplement its operations with inflated local fares. In comes a low fare airline pouring tons of additional seats on an already weaker local market and BAM! the pricing advantage is gone and thus the operations can no longer be maintained at the airport gets 'de-hubbed'.

PIT, especially after 9/11, became a money vortex for US Airways, sucking it into bankruptcy not once, but twice. It is obvious that the consumers weren't going to pay the money that it would take to maintain the operations there so thus the hub went away. Don't blame US Airways for making a good financial decision, blame the market that changed the dynamics of the PIT situation. I can't pass blame on the consumer for wanting to pay lower fares nor am I particularly hostile towards WN for aggressively pursuing PIT. Blaming US Airways for making a decision to stay afloat in a turbulent time doesn't make much sense either. Lets face it, PIT simply doesn't want a hub - it would rather pay less for a more inconvenient schedule. The people voted with their money, US Airways counted the votes and thus is in the process of dismantling PIT services. Heck, I remember a mayor who would brag about driving to CMH or CLE to get a cheaper flight - not much loyalty there!

As for construction of the wonderful airport that is PIT, I can see why US Airways says that they wanted the facility as it would make it easier for them to maintain services there more efficiently. My friends there would LOVE to dismantle PIT and move it to PHL. I feel the airport authority took a risk hoping that, despite its weaker local market, having a world-class facility constructed will entice US Airways to maintain their operations there. Regrettably, it simply made it easier for another carrier like WN to come in to market and their plan simply backfired. Or, it could've been their intentions all along to try to get lower fares by enticing WN and other low fare carriers in there and they were in the incorrect assumption that US Airways would never drop their hub - either way it was a miscalculation. Blaming US Airways for being asked what kind of airport they'd like to have by the airport authority and then the airport authority goes off and builds it isn't very effective either. US Airways put a bunch of money in that airport too, by the way.

We've seen this game play out in other markets like BWI and I'd imagine you'd see a similar situation if a low-fare carrier enters CVG, MSP, CLT or MEM with the frequency that WN entered in PIT and BWI.

Our economy is market driving and the market has spoken but I guess we could go back to a regulated system if you prefer?

US started scaling back PIT long before WN came in. Enticing WN was a reaction to that rather than a result of it. The part that I don't understand is most flights I am on US are full. And they aren't cheap. I am flying next week to LAX and paying over $600. The morning non-stop flight back on 8/17 is soldout, I had to take a connection through CLT. I can't imagine too many business flyers are taking WN to the west coast. WN has no non-stops to the coast. I'm paying over $300 to BDL at the end of the month. US flights are full, they are charging a high price, it doesn't make sense to cutback.

US started scaling back PIT long before WN came in. Enticing WN was a reaction to that rather than a result of it. The part that I don't understand is most flights I am on US are full. And they aren't cheap. I am flying next week to LAX and paying over $600. The morning non-stop flight back on 8/17 is soldout, I had to take a connection through CLT. I can't imagine too many business flyers are taking WN to the west coast. WN has no non-stops to the coast. I'm paying over $300 to BDL at the end of the month. US flights are full, they are charging a high price, it doesn't make sense to cutback.


I agree, not only does WN not possess the amentities to lure a biz traveller onto a trans-con lane, but their fares on trans-cons typically aren't much if any more competetive from a price standpoint...

PIT, especially after 9/11, became a money vortex for US Airways, sucking it into bankruptcy not once, but twice.

There is so much bull in your post to a point that I wonder if you could even believe anything that you wrote. This comment was the best though, I think this is the first time I have heard that PIT was responsible for US' 2 bankruptcies.

Now I don't profess to have an indepth knowledge of airline economics, but Boeing Boy has done an amazing job of correcting the false comments such as what you have posted here.

And as Debbie stated, Southwest came after the de-hub. Last week I paid $700 to fly an E145 to STL-Doesn't sound very LCC to me. IIRC, the county didn't build the airport to entice US to maintain service....it was built to US' specifications, with contracts and leases, which they subsequently dropped in BK. Jim correct me if I'm wrong here.

Given that the PIT airport is now 15 years old, and half the municipal people who built it are dead and US has gone throught about 6 management changes since then (Hmm, Colodny, Schofield, Wolfe, David something or other, Lakefield, Parker, did I miss anyone?) I think we can stop blaming either the airline or the local pols for the situation today. And the fact of the matter is that PIT flyers, like any flyers, wanted lower airfares, and even business travelers don't necessarily have inelastic demand -- I conduct a lot more business in NYC than I used to because it costs $100 to fly there instead of $900. And debbieb is correct that WNs entry was a result of, not a cause of de-hubbing. True, there is less service, but the price level is much better suited to my business and personal travel needs.

The bottom line is the only thing that's going to increase the service level at PIT would be if the metropolitan area were to grow to 3 million people or something like that. In the mean time, we just have to hope UA or AA see an opportunity with West Coast service.

PIT, especially after 9/11, became a money vortex for US Airways, sucking it into bankruptcy not once, but twice.

Untrue and unsubstantiated. As a practical matter, US made more money over it's history with PIT as the largest hub than it has since, even after two bankruptcies.

As for construction of the wonderful airport that is PIT, I can see why US Airways says that they wanted the facility as it would make it easier for them to maintain services there more efficiently. My friends there would LOVE to dismantle PIT and move it to PHL. I feel the airport authority took a risk hoping that, despite its weaker local market, having a world-class facility constructed will entice US Airways to maintain their operations there. Regrettably, it simply made it easier for another carrier like WN to come in to market and their plan simply backfired. Or, it could've been their intentions all along to try to get lower fares by enticing WN and other low fare carriers in there and they were in the incorrect assumption that US Airways would never drop their hub - either way it was a miscalculation. Blaming US Airways for being asked what kind of airport they'd like to have by the airport authority and then the airport authority goes off and builds it isn't very effective either. US Airways put a bunch of money in that airport too, by the way.

Completely inaccurate summation of what happened. Here is how it went:

US: "We will move the hub."

Forrester: "What do you want."

US: "2B monster."

Then, in BK:

ACAA: "So, we are good on our leases, right?"

US" "Absolutely."

US (10 minutes before emerging from BK and with no prior warning): "Hey, we just rejected all the leases"

Any other characterization of this is someone trying to spin US' abuse of bankruptcy into a positive light. US walked away from over a billion dollars in airport debt, thanks to the BK court. If I'm the ACAA, my next response is "f' em"

Why do you think US is getting no help at PHL on gates, particularly from the state? It will be a cold day in hell before the Commonwealth lifts a finger for US Airways, and rightfully so.

Clue is correct - the PIT midfield terminal was built at the insistence of US, to US specs, and US insisted that the old terminal be torn down after the new one opened - remember that People's Express was operating out of the "slums" across the field in EWR during the negotiation/planning period for the PIT midfield terminal and US wanted to be absolutely sure that the same wouldn't happen at PIT.

After BK1 and the rejection of the PIT leases, US continued to occupy all 50 mainline gates while paying 10% extra without the long-term leases ($5 million/year) in an attempt to keep any true lcc competition out. It was only as BK2 was becoming more inevitable that US signed long term leases on 10 of the mainline gates and relinquished a hand full of the other 40. That allowed WN to start service.

Jim

As a practical matter, US made more money over it's history with PIT as the largest hub than it has since, even after two bankruptcies.




From a customer's perspective, PIT is a much more viable connecting hub than PHL. Customers do not consider the costs involved with maintaining the PIT hub, or if there is enough O&D traffic to support a PIT hub. Customers care about reliable service, ease of connections, cleanliness....and PIT is worlds above PHL in that arena. Scale back service to and through PIT, and you end up with a double-whammy: Locals flock to other airlines because they have less options out of PIT, and connecting pax flock to other airlines because they do not want to connect through PHL.

Untrue and unsubstantiated. As a practical matter, US made more money over it's history with PIT as the largest hub than it has since, even after two bankruptcies......
Why do you think US is getting no help at PHL on gates, particularly from the state? It will be a cold day in hell before the Commonwealth lifts a finger for US Airways, and rightfully so.

What is the basis for your claim that "US made more money over it's history with PIT as the largest hub than it has since" - can you provide any detailed data? Parker disagrees with your position and would not publicy state so unless it was an accurate summary:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06138/691052-28.stm

PHL has just announced a 3 gate expansion of the international concourse and a complete re-design of Terminal F. Who would most benefit from these improvements if not US?

What is the basis for your claim that "US made more money over it's history with PIT as the largest hub than it has since" - can you provide any detailed data? Parker disagrees with your position and would not publicy state so unless it was an accurate summary:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06138/691052-28.stm

PHL has just announced a 3 gate expansion of the international concourse and a complete re-design of Terminal F. Who would most benefit from these improvements if not US?

More lies there. He said in May 2006:

>>>CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- US Airways Chief Executive Officer Doug Parker yesterday said Pittsburgh International Airport was now "marginally profitable" for the carrier because of cutbacks made since last year's US Airways-America West merger and that he does not expect any more dramatic reductions in local flights or employees.

The region's largest carrier now has fewer than 200 flights and about 3,000 employees at the airport, down from more than 500 flights and 12,000 employees at the beginning of the decade.<<<<

The last I heard was that as of September PIT will be down to 110 daily flights. I would call that a dramatic reduction.

Next time anyone is sitting in PHL on a 3 hour ATC delay because it rained a few drops, think about why PHL was a better choice. That has to be costing them money. Long ATC delays are rare at PIT.

I would love to see UA, DL or CO come in with non-stop service to the west coast. I would be gone in a flash.

What is the basis for your claim that "US made more money over it's history with PIT as the largest hub than it has since" - can you provide any detailed data? Parker disagrees with your position and would not publicy state so unless it was an accurate summary:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06138/691052-28.stm

Parker's statements to the PG are not covered under SEC regulations.

What US puts in it's filings historically are. And, harken back to the early and mid 1990s and add up how much money was made.

Your suggestion that Parker would not state something in public that is not true is laughable--shall I pull up quotes on how well the res system migration was initially going? Or, better yet--his statements surrounding his DUI history?

But what's truly funny? At the time he said that, the entire airline was only marginally profitable.

PHL has just announced a 3 gate expansion of the international concourse and a complete re-design of Terminal F. Who would most benefit from these improvements if not US?

Check and see who is footing the bill. I'm sure that US can get whatever it wants at PHL if it brings cash to build it. And the three gates will probably be instantly absorbed when Delta moves over to A--the entire point of that process is to free up more room for WN, not make room for US.

Let's spin it properly, eh? I realize that the US-fanboy population has shrunk somewhat, of late, but don't blindly believe what comes out of Dougweiser and Scotch in Tempe--much of it is really as transparent as a desert mirage upon close scrutiny....

Not satisfied with declassifying PIT as a hub (after the county BUILT that white elephant of a terminal at US's request (read: demand), nor with reducing the number of flights out of PIT since 9/11 by 70%, they are now taking away (albeit slowly) our non-stops to the left coast.

I was booking my weekly flights PIT-LAX out through the end of September when I noticed that I wasn't able to get flight 1454 back to Pittsburgh from 9/1 forward. I called a Chairman's rep and was told that yes, there were no non-stops from LAX to PIT as of September.

With your USELESS heading, I sincerely hope they pull out completely. You people hate US Airways so much, but whine when they cut more flights. I would think you all would be celebrating. As far as the current airport...regardless of who demanded what, your old airport was a s***hole and a joke in the country. You would had built a new airport regardless. Are you all whining equally about the millions spent on football and baseball stadiums?

[QUOTE=flight62;8198126]your old airport was a s***hole and a joke in the country. You would had built a new airport regardless. QUOTE]

The old airport was nicer the day they moved out than PHL is today.

I would love to see UA, DL or CO come in with non-stop service to the west coast. I would be gone in a flash.

Can't happen soon enough. Either someone else comes in or I'm looking for a new home/hub.

Next time anyone is sitting in PHL on a 3 hour ATC delay because it rained a few drops, think about why PHL was a better choice. That has to be costing them money. Long ATC delays are rare at PIT....

Every East Coast airline has the same ATC problems at EWR, JFK, LGA and PHL.
This is why US chose PHL over PIT:
PHL Domestic O&D = 19+M
PIT Domestic O&D = 7M
PHL International O&D = 4.2M (Excluding Canada)
PIT International O&D = 0.2M (Excluding Canada)
PHL Catchment = 7M
PIT Catchment = 3M
Another measure more difficult to quantify, but nevertheless important, is the high probability that there is a significant difference between the quality of PHL and PIT O&D, with PHL far exceeding PIT in premium fare paying customers - this is my opinion however, without proof of claim.

If the design and infrastructure of an airport, regardless of location, was the main reason for an airline to hub there, PIT would be the hub/focus city of 3 or 4 airlines.

US is further downsizing PIT, as the OP pointed out, but has any airline stepped up and said they were considering an upsize compensation? Jet Blue has stated recently that that they are not happy with the PIT load factors and that they must improve. WN has done very little expansion at PIT since starting service and is now in a process of downsizing/ evaluating a restructure of their entire network. Internationally, no airline has expressed any solicited (by Pittsburgh) interest, in offering a single flight to Europe from PIT - although I would speculate NW could do something possibly with a 757-200 to AMS in the near future. If US does vacate many more of it's flights out of PIT, I'd suspect DL would do a little growing, B6 loads should improve to the deleted US cities, and WN is really an unkown, although lots of PIT cheerleaders tend to look at them as the "savior". My feeling is that WN is more likely to grow PHL, when it gets more gates later this year, before looking at anything substantial for PIT.

Can't happen soon enough. Either someone else comes in or I'm looking for a new home/hub.

I find this all VERY fascinating. Before jetBlue went into Pittsburgh the fares to New York and Boston were absolutely astronomical. All but the business traveler were relegated to I-80 (long drive), Greyhound, Amtrak, or simply not going to New York or Boston. I've worked with some people from Pittsburgh and their tickets to New York were so expensive I remember them saying they were flagged by the Audit Team.

Junior people couldn't attend meetings in New York when junior people from Chicago could, the fares were just ridiculous out of proportion, the Pittsburgh teams didn't have the budgets to support the fares.

I remember US Airways cut some of the PIT LGA trips down to 37 seat DASH 8 turbo props. Not a 757 to a 737, not a 737 to an E170, not a CRJ, there were DASH 8 turbo props. Then jetBlue came in with incredibly low fares and beautiful new E190 aircraft, in-flight entertainment, new planes, comfortable seating, friendly crews. And what happened, travel between Pittsburgh and New York has increased... ...on US Airways. jetBlue has had the most difficulty gaining traction in Pittsburgh of virtually all the cities they fly to. Why is that?

All this griping about US Airways in Pittsburgh and you're not supporting jetBlue. Maybe if jetBlue's flights to New York were full they might consider growing in Pittsburgh. Is it ALL about the Dividend Miles?

Next time anyone is sitting in PHL on a 3 hour ATC delay because it rained a few drops, think about why PHL was a better choice. That has to be costing them money. Long ATC delays are rare at PIT.

I would love to see UA, DL or CO come in with non-stop service to the west coast. I would be gone in a flash.

I know what you mean - I have been tempted more and more to switch back to UA, since I am connecting almost everywhere I go now anyway.

Every East Coast airline has the same ATC problems at EWR, JFK, LGA and PHL.


Um, I think that was part of debbieb's point - long ATC delays are a fact of life on the WAS-NYC corridor, but they aren't as much of a problem at PIT.

With your USELESS heading, I sincerely hope they pull out completely. You people hate US Airways so much, but whine when they cut more flights.

I don't call it Useless Airways, but I share a lot of the OP's feeling on this. For most of us, it isn't that we hate US so much - it's that we have (perhaps foolishly) given a lot of time, effort, business, and love to them, and we feel frustrated by the direction that the airline is going. I am friends/acquaintances with a number of East ground crew, FAs, and call center agents (not to make this another East-West debate), and I see the sacrifices they have made for US, and the frustration that they feel with the airline they are now representing. I would LOVE to see US regain some of it's former glory, and I would (as a PIT resident) also love to see it reestablish itself in PIT. I'm not naive, though, and I know that is not likely to happen, and I think that is why you see so much angst from so many of us here.

Parker's statements to the PG are not covered under SEC regulations.

What US puts in it's filings historically are. And, harken back to the early and mid 1990s and add up how much money was made.

Your suggestion that Parker would not state something in public that is not true is laughable--shall I pull up quotes on how well the res system migration was initially going? Or, better yet--his statements surrounding his DUI history?

But what's truly funny? At the time he said that, the entire airline was only marginally profitable.



Check and see who is footing the bill. I'm sure that US can get whatever it wants at PHL if it brings cash to build it. And the three gates will probably be instantly absorbed when Delta moves over to A--the entire point of that process is to free up more room for WN, not make room for US.

Let's spin it properly, eh? I realize that the US-fanboy population has shrunk somewhat, of late, but don't blindly believe what comes out of Dougweiser and Scotch in Tempe--much of it is really as transparent as a desert mirage upon close scrutiny....

Actually it is you who is "spinning" - in a great circle of inaccuracies. I find no supportive evidence for any of your claims. I personally would be much more inclined to believe the CEO of a publicly held company making a financial related statement to the Press, than the opinion of a message board poster. Any public statements by a corporate official which can potentially influence stock price is subject to SEC scrutiny. Adding 3 gates to Terminal A-West is not an offset to Terminal A-East, it's an improvement/upgrade in anticipation of the 332s/333s and possibly 343s arriving on/before 2009. The funding for the Terminal "A-East" refurbishment, "D&E" Redesign/Refurbishment (underway), "F" Redesign and "A-West" Extension are all BOND issues - not US Airways funded projects.

Pardon my language but US screwed Pittsburgh royally over the airport. It's a shame PIT was such a great airport to fly out of.

The local politicians were ready to just hand over the wallet to keep US when they just up and cancelled their gate leases.

flight62, when I lived in Pittsburgh I was quite vocal about the new football and baseball stadiums we didn't need.

I would love to see UA, DL or CO come in with non-stop service to the west coast. I would be gone in a flash.

I am sure you would... if the price is right. Truth is, having lived in PIT for 10+ years, it's pretty apparent that the most vocal people there are never happy. When PIT was a hub and it cost $700 to fly to IAH and $400 to PHL, we complained about the high prices. Now, we can fly to PHL for $80 (!!!), so we're unhappy that the non-stop to IAH is gone.

What do we want in PIT?

And don't tell me we want a UA hub 'cause we'll end up like ORD, and if it's a CO hub, we'll end up like EWR.

I am sure you would... if the price is right. Truth is, having lived in PIT for 10+ years, it's pretty apparent that the most vocal people there are never happy. When PIT was a hub and it cost $700 to fly to IAH and $400 to PHL, we complained about the high prices. Now, we can fly to PHL for $80 (!!!), so we're unhappy that the non-stop to IAH is gone.

What do we want in PIT?

And don't tell me we want a UA hub 'cause we'll end up like ORD, and if it's a CO hub, we'll end up like EWR.

First of all, I don't think you'll ever end up like Newark or Chicago, I don't think you have to worry about that.

I'm curious how many of the people here complaining about US Airways actually use jetBlue, Southwest, or Air Tran for travel to / from Pittsburgh?

flight62, when I lived in Pittsburgh I was quite vocal about the new football and baseball stadiums we didn't need.

and now we get a gleaming hockey palace and casino to join them. egad.

Looking at the thread as a whole, I don't know where the idea came from that PIT was "attractive" to airlines like WN (and that made it unpalatable to US), and that's why they had to downsize. No sustainable entrant like WN showed up until US had already gutted the place.

The big O&D numbers for PHL are undeniable, but the product being provided there has degraded to the point where people will consider alternatives they otherwise would not have.

I'm in PHL with a lot of colleagues in PIT and more and more of them are on Southwest. Yeah, its not known for being a business airline, but they know the trick to check in as close as possible to 24hrs before the flight to get the coveted "A" boarding pass, they know WN will get them home on time most often, and heck, even with the open seating dealio (which is about to change in some form) they figure with an hr flight, it is not the end of the world if they get a middle seat.

[QUOTE=mike_one2many;8198814]I am sure you would... if the price is right. Truth is, having lived in PIT for 10+ years, it's pretty apparent that the most vocal people there are never happy. When PIT was a hub and it cost $700 to fly to IAH and $400 to PHL, we complained about the high prices. Now, we can fly to PHL for $80 (!!!), so we're unhappy that the non-stop to IAH is gone.
QUOTE]
The first 6 months I worked this job (14 yrs. ago) I was going PIT- PHL weekly, and paid $600 - $700 and the service was unreliable back then. I was also paying $1400 - $1600 to DFW and IAH.

If my current work destinations change, I will most definitely use JetBlue. The only thing I have against Southwest is no seat assignments. As soon as that changes, I'll be using them. Many of my coworkers have gone that route already and do nothing but praise Southwest. For now, it's DL for some trips and UA for others, and the few nonstops I can take I still do some on US.

To start, I'm not even going to get into the O&D figures--PIT's is, in reality, north of 8 million. Off by a million or two, who cares, right? Nobody is debating that PHL has a much larger O&D count, but at least try to get the numbers right.


Another measure more difficult to quantify, but nevertheless important, is the high probability that there is a significant difference between the quality of PHL and PIT O&D, with PHL far exceeding PIT in premium fare paying customers - this is my opinion however, without proof of claim.

Your opinion is wrong.

There are two significant areas (maybe three) in the country where there are any significant amount of passengers who are truly price insensitive, above and beyond corporate contracts. PHL is not one of them.

US is further downsizing PIT, as the OP pointed out, but has any airline stepped up and said they were considering an upsize compensation? Jet Blue has stated recently that that they are not happy with the PIT load factors and that they must improve. WN has done very little expansion at PIT since starting service and is now in a process of downsizing/ evaluating a restructure of their entire network.


WN has done very little expansion, eh? I guess that's the Clintonian definition of "very little."

10 departures to 23 in two years. For a shoddy little town, I'd say a %130 expansion inside of two years, including dominating the traffic PIT-PHL and PIT-PHX is not bad, all things considered.

They are also doing that in direct competition with the incumbent "focus city" carrier on everything but BWI--and they drove US off that route in roughly 1 month.

If you want to speak to this stuff, do try to have the actual facts at hand. It makes it easier.

That all having been said--If US wants to continue to connect people at PHL, it's going to lose everyone but the PHL O&D pax, over time (this is why Dougweiser is cutting capacity, BTW).

PIT's O&D is capable of supporting a hub, the same as CLT is or MEM or CVG or certainly CLE. What those places (save MEM) have in common is airlines whose management apparently gets it, unlike Dougweiser. You will note that post-BK, DL is already showing much more promising numbers than US, and CO always has. Dougweiser and Scotch, despite what they say about PHX and LAS, cannot compete with real LCCs. PIT is a victim of the run and hide mentality.

If you step back to look at it, it's a slow motion repeat of the early 1990s. The problem you may run into is very few people on airliners.net, for instance, are old enough to actually remember it...

Actually it is you who is "spinning" - in a great circle of inaccuracies.

Keep telling yourself that, and you might even begin to believe it.

I find no supportive evidence for any of your claims.

Is that sort of like your characterization that Southwest's %130 growth at PIT in under two years is "very little?"

I personally would be much more inclined to believe the CEO of a publicly held company making a financial related statement to the Press, than the opinion of a message board poster. Any public statements by a corporate official which can potentially influence stock price is subject to SEC scrutiny.

If you believe that, how can you possibly explain where Dougweiser and Scotch came out and said, the res migration was going well with some "bumps," for instance before later admitting the truth?

Or Dougweiser initially denying the DUI?

Or, for that matter, Siegel's promise to have first class on the CRJ-700s and EMB-170s? It was patently untrue--where was the SEC?

You really, really need to look before you shoot.

Adding 3 gates to Terminal A-West is not an offset to Terminal A-East, it's an improvement/upgrade in anticipation of the 332s/333s and possibly 343s arriving on/before 2009. The funding for the Terminal "A-East" refurbishment, "D&E" Redesign/Refurbishment (underway), "F" Redesign and "A-West" Extension are all BOND issues - not US Airways funded projects.

Wrong. It's entirely about making room for Delta, which is why (if you listen to the earnings call or talk to the folks in PHL), Dougweiser is making noise about not having enough room for additional European expansion.

Quote:
I personally would be much more inclined to believe the CEO of a publicly held company making a financial related statement to the Press, than the opinion of a message board poster.

LOL!!

I think your quote is slightly inaccurate, you should have added: "a message board poster who thinks he knows more than the CEO of a major corporation!!"
:)

Interestingly I just noticed that US also does not have a Nonstop State College ==> LAX :confused:

Sounds like a great opportunity for the Yappering US Hating Club to start their own airline and show the rest of the idiot industry how its done. Clueless Airways anybody?
:rolleyes:

I think your quote is slightly inaccurate, you should have added: "a message board poster who thinks he knows more than the CEO of a major corporation!!"
:)

That's easy....there's thousands of message board posters who do know more than dougweiser. That's been painfully obvious for the last 2 years.

Interestingly I just noticed that US also does not have a Nonstop State College ==> LAX :confused:

Sounds like a great opportunity for the Yappering US Hating Club to start their own airline and show the rest of the idiot industry how its done. Clueless Airways anybody?
:rolleyes:

Yeah, and it would be better than the current T.I.T.S.Airways which Tempe is running (and the name is borrowed from PineyBob)!!

[QUOTE=Travels2mch;8200051]That's easy....there's thousands of message board posters who do know more than dougweiser. [QUOTE]



I do know a little more then the drunken', babblin' fool running UseLess air into the ground.

I 'put up', without 'shutting up'. That is...I moved. All of my money (a TRUE $50K, with receipts to PROVE it, unlike most on here!!) to CO! Is CO perfect???nope...are they GREAT...yep!

Happy trails..and great flights!!!

Check and see who is footing the bill. I'm sure that US can get whatever it wants at PHL if it brings cash to build it.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20070808_Bond-rating_upgrades_on_time_for_airport_plans.html

What I don't get is what happens in another year when US wants more intl. gates and DL is already firmly entrenched in A-East, and WN has used all DL's old gates?

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What I don't get is what happens in another year when US wants more intl. gates and DL is already firmly entrenched in A-East, and WN has used all DL's old gates?

Maybe the solution is to move the current A-Easter's into C, then US into all of A and B. not a great idea, but might work. ish.

There are two significant areas (maybe three) in the country where there are any significant amount of passengers who are truly price insensitive, above and beyond corporate contracts. PHL is not one of them.


Do you really think that the larger concentration of businesses around PHL doesn't lead to a yield premium, you're kidding yourself.

In fact, PA DOT cites the figure at ~$12 more on average (though this doesn't exactly translate into RASM it's a decent indicator).

Oh, and that pesky state government thing also cites a 1-hour drive zone population of 2.2 million for PIT, while PHL is 5.6 million (the 2 hour drive zone is skewed because NYC is within 2 hours of philly by car, in theory). Catchment area populations aren't drastically different on a ratio basis, either.

Also, PIT's Domestic O&D is ~6million, it's only over 8 million if you count O&D PDEW so both numbers are accurate. But don't let that get in the way of the I love PIT/PHL is the seventh layer of hell (OK... so it is...) agenda.

Interestingly I just noticed that US also does not have a Nonstop State College ==> LAX :confused:

Sounds like a great opportunity for the Yappering US Hating Club to start their own airline and show the rest of the idiot industry how its done. Clueless Airways anybody?
:rolleyes:

Just so that we are clear, has US does anything that you disagree with, or are you a member of the "club tempe" so that we can continue this debate knowing where everyone stands?

I don't have to start my own airline--My business with US has dropped off about $40-$60k/year. Let me know when the fanboi crowd digs up enough people to offset that loss. I've also made a good chunk of change shorting the hell out of US and subsequently LCC. I don't want to do it better than Dougweiser, I want him to keep doing what he's doing--it's easy money.

Dougweiser and Scotch are running a business with the benefit of two bankruptcies to reduce capacity and slash wages and annihilate leaseholders/creditors. My cat could achieve the same result. There is no growth model, and the "run and hide while reducing capacity" game has a finite life. It's the early 1990s but with a different western route network (PHX/LAS instead of LAX/SFO). Think about it--now that DL and NW are out of BK with lower costs and better networks than US, and UA (while not going far enough on the cost-out side) is treading water with a far more substantial route network than US, what do you think is going to happen? Look at DL's numbers (hell, even NWA's numbers minus the BK cruft) for the quarter and then LCC. Now project that out into a bit into the future, particularly when capacity starts to return (and it will, because the people running the legacies suffer from very short memories and groupthink). Dougweiser is going to run out of places to run and hide to and have to compete on either cost or amenities, at which point the gig is up.

If you look at the operational metrics, they are failing miserably. Integration activities continue to fail miserably. There is still no single certificate. The major unions have yet to get combined contracts. If you thought the reservations thing was ugly, just wait until the operation/dispatch computer systems are merged.

And as a bonus--think of it as an investment tip--smart money would never run an airline. There is one crew (Southwest) who has done it right post-deregulation with any kind of regularity. Everyone else (save AA) has been bankrupt at least once. That's a sucker's dare. Good management and executive talent (save Southwest) does not really exist, because if they were the least bit smart, they'd be in any other industry.

Keep on the bandwagon, and report back once the wheels come off.

In fact, PA DOT cites the figure at ~$12 more on average (though this doesn't exactly translate into RASM it's a decent indicator).

According to the BTS, the average domestic yield @ PHL is 14.8 cents while the average domestic yield @ PIT is 16.2 cents (data from 1Q07, the latest available). If you assume an 85% average load factor, that makes the RASM @ PHL 12.58 cents - just about breakeven for US East. For PIT to have a higher RASM, it would only take a 78% load factor.

PHL has a higher average fare - $164 vs $145 @ PIT - by virtue of the average distance flown being further - 1110 mi vs 900 mi.

Jim

I'm looking at flights PIT-LAX-PIT, Sept 28 & Oct 5. 8:40am non-stop on 9/28 and 11:50am non-stop return on Oct 5. The evening out/red-eye back are gone. I checked December dates and the daytime flights are gone and the evenings are back. I've been flying out 3 or 4 times a year the past couple years and they usually cutback to 1 non-stop each way in the winter. This year it looks like it was a little earlier.

On this point, I stand corrected. I should have stated that I was referring to the evening flights. I do appreciate the information on the December dates with the return of the evenings. Thanks for the research.

There is so much bull in your post to a point that I wonder if you could even believe anything that you wrote. This comment was the best though, I think this is the first time I have heard that PIT was responsible for US' 2 bankruptcies.

Now I don't profess to have an indepth knowledge of airline economics, but Boeing Boy has done an amazing job of correcting the false comments such as what you have posted here.

And as Debbie stated, Southwest came after the de-hub. Last week I paid $700 to fly an E145 to STL-Doesn't sound very LCC to me. IIRC, the county didn't build the airport to entice US to maintain service....it was built to US' specifications, with contracts and leases, which they subsequently dropped in BK. Jim correct me if I'm wrong here.

Yep, lots of half-truths and outright falsehoods in his/her statements. Almost written like a US PR rep.

WitAre you all whining equally about the millions spent on football and baseball stadiums?

As a matter of fact, yes. I am. $600M for two buildings...each used only part of the year....replacing a building on which the tax payers still owed $35M at the time of demolition. Absurd.

As for your diatribe on hoping that the airline pulls out because of my headline: I couldn't possibly care less about what you hope for.

What do we want in PIT?


Actually, I thought I was pretty clear. I want my constantly full evening non-stops to LAX back.

Interestingly I just noticed that US also does not have a Nonstop State College ==> LAX :confused:

Sounds like a great opportunity for the Yappering US Hating Club to start their own airline and show the rest of the idiot industry how its done. Clueless Airways anybody?
:rolleyes:

Are you sincerely comparing State College, PA to Pittsburgh, PA? Really? Honestly?

Just so that we are clear, has US does anything that you disagree with, or are you a member of the "club tempe" so that we can continue this debate knowing where everyone stands?

Blah

Keep on the bandwagon, and report back once the wheels come off.

I know its the typical slap against any that may disagree with the Anti Anything US Airways point of view but since you asked: I have no clue what "club tempe" is. Are you asking if I work for US? Have a vested interest other than being a customer? If so, the answer is NO! If there is a different meaning than please forgo the attempt at cuteness and ask straight away. thank you.

To you other question, YES, many things they do irk me to no end. I, unlike you it appears, fly US regularly so I do not think that a exUSflyer needs to give the rest of us customers any advice.

I'll let others react to the insults, sarcasm and self righteousness
witnessed in the rest of the missive.

Are you sincerely comparing State College, PA to Pittsburgh, PA? Really? Honestly?

Did you sincerely think I was comparing State College, PA to Pittsburgh, PA? Really? Honestly? ;)

I'm just saying that I would guess US is giving up (given up) on PIT not because every flight is full and they are making a boat loads of profits.

The rest of you airline industry experts can argue what you think you know all day long but a business is in business to be profitable. Ugly truth to be sure but true nevertheless.

I mean really, its Pittsburgh for God's sake. Not like its Cleveland or anything :p (relax - that was just a joke!).

Are you sincerely comparing State College, PA to Pittsburgh, PA? Really? Honestly?

Agreed, don't ever compare State College to Pittsburgh again. State College is a far superior place in all respects :D

I don't know if it's ever going to happen but I remember the computer drawings of the Maglev train that was to connect PIT with downtown from the 1990's. I distinctly remember a picture that showed the train next to the Civic(Mellon) Arena (also comical in light of recent events). Could you imagine hopping on train downtown that takes you to the airport in minutes, only to find a deserted airport with only a dozen non-stop destinations? If that Maglev had actually happened...

All this griping about US Airways in Pittsburgh and you're not supporting jetBlue. Maybe if jetBlue's flights to New York were full they might consider growing in Pittsburgh. Is it ALL about the Dividend Miles?

Actually I will be throwing B6 some bones at the end of the year, once my status level is solidified. The biggest reason I don't fly them? Their afternoon return flights to PIT are at 4:40 and 9pm from JFK, while US has a 6:15 from LGA. Neither of jetBlue's times are convenient if you want to get a full day of work in and also get home in time for a decent night's sleep.

I'm curious how many of the people here complaining about US Airways actually use jetBlue, Southwest, or Air Tran for travel to / from Pittsburgh?

I'm actually shifting more of my business to WN. Why? Well, recently I had to travel to PHL and check two carseats. I don't think i need to elaborate any futher on that, but US was never even considered. I also have some upcoming transcons, and since I don't get upgrades on those routes and I consider my Dividend Miles to be worthless since they can never be redeemed for standard awards, all that's left is price, seat pitch, and expected reliability of dispatch. WN wins on all three counts.

Reflecting on that, it makes me realize that given that Tempe thinks all that fliers care about is price, well, when you remove all other differentiating factors, that's all you leave me with when making my decision. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I don't know if it's ever going to happen but I remember the computer drawings of the Maglev train that was to connect PIT with downtown from the 1990's. I distinctly remember a picture that showed the train next to the Civic(Mellon) Arena (also comical in light of recent events). Could you imagine hopping on train downtown that takes you to the airport in minutes, only to find a deserted airport with only a dozen non-stop destinations? If that Maglev had actually happened...

amazingly "airport train" is still dreamily posited publicly, now as "connecting" to the North Shore subway extension now being put in blocking up Stanwix St with all that digging...

Look on the bright side, even though I just saw somebody sail by in an ark a few minutes ago, most departures this evening out of PIT are listed as on-time. Having only 20% of the previous number of flights means there are never any PIT induced ATC delays. Ever.

All this griping about US Airways in Pittsburgh and you're not supporting jetBlue. Maybe if jetBlue's flights to New York were full they might consider growing in Pittsburgh. Is it ALL about the Dividend Miles?

Just because some of the PIT posters to this bulletin board are full of sh.. doesn't mean all of us are. I fly to New York weekly and take JetBlue every week. I typically buy full fare tickets on JB which are $199 a piece for Sun night or Thu night travel. The flights I am on are 90% or higher full every time.

When AirTran was flying PIT-PHL and PIT-LGA I flew them. Before JB flew PIT-JFK I flew AA PIT-LGA. I've earned over 2M miles on USAirways but have earned 2000 in the past year (the last RT being one to keep my account active).

So on thing I do agree.. if you don't like USAirways and their cutbacks in Pittsburgh then DON'T patronize them. When I fly transcon, I fly through another city rather than take the US non-stop. Just like eventually is going to happen anyway. Yes it adds more time, but I voted with my dollars. I remember my last PIT-LAX flight on USAirways was over $1000 each way. Never again.

Actually I will be throwing B6 some bones at the end of the year, once my status level is solidified. The biggest reason I don't fly them? Their afternoon return flights to PIT are at 4:40 and 9pm from JFK, while US has a 6:15 from LGA. Neither of jetBlue's times are convenient if you want to get a full day of work in and also get home in time for a decent night's sleep.

FYI I like JFK a lot better due to the AirTrain, and the 9pm flight means i can get a full day's work in and then some. Also, at least with JB I believe all fares are one way.. I've done that before, flown the JB flight to JFK (which lands at a reasonable 9pm) and taken an AA flight back from LGA (to not give USAirways any money).

But if its about the miles.. well that's another story

Did you sincerely think I was comparing State College, PA to Pittsburgh, PA? Really? Honestly? ;)

I'm just saying that I would guess US is giving up (given up) on PIT not because every flight is full and they are making a boat loads of profits.

The thing is..... the evening PIT/LAX run was booked solid even before when they were using a A-321 on the route. Booked solid when, inexplicably they switched to a -320. Then they ax it. I'm no airline industry expert, but it seems to me that a run that is consistently flying at capacity is a good thing.

The thing is..... the evening PIT/LAX run was booked solid even before when they were using a A-321 on the route. Booked solid when, inexplicably they switched to a -320. Then they ax it. I'm no airline industry expert, but it seems to me that a run that is consistently flying at capacity is a good thing.

I agree that if the flight were full and assuming it was profitable it seems wierd. I wonder if FFocus would be willing to ask US for the real story about why this flight was axed. Sometimes even full flights lose money or maybe they can make more money by using that plane on another route.

Point is, just spitting the usual "US Sucks" and the silly "Dougie" crap makes us look like spoiled idiot children who do nothing but ......

You make a good point so now lets try to find the REAL reason. Or do we only care about .....ing?

Point is, just spitting the usual "US Sucks" and the silly "Dougie" crap makes us look like spoiled idiot children who do nothing but ......

You make a good point so now lets try to find the REAL reason. Or do we only care about .....ing?

I'd love to know the actual reason. What I would love even more is to not lose a flight on which I rely.

I understand what you are saying about "spitting the usual 'US Sucks'" not necessarily being productive. At the same time, there are circumstances which warrant the blowing off of some steam. I think you'd probably agree with that.

Do you really think that the larger concentration of businesses around PHL doesn't lead to a yield premium, you're kidding yourself.

In fact, PA DOT cites the figure at ~$12 more on average (though this doesn't exactly translate into RASM it's a decent indicator).

Oh, and that pesky state government thing also cites a 1-hour drive zone population of 2.2 million for PIT, while PHL is 5.6 million (the 2 hour drive zone is skewed because NYC is within 2 hours of philly by car, in theory). Catchment area populations aren't drastically different on a ratio basis, either.

Also, PIT's Domestic O&D is ~6million, it's only over 8 million if you count O&D PDEW so both numbers are accurate. But don't let that get in the way of the I love PIT/PHL is the seventh layer of hell (OK... so it is...) agenda.

PIT has an excellent concentration of large corporations in their own right. Alcoa, PPG, Heinz, etc. are all corporately HQ'd in the PIT area. That doesn't even scratch the surface of the corporate presense in PIT.

FYI I like JFK a lot better due to the AirTrain, and the 9pm flight means i can get a full day's work in and then some. Also, at least with JB I believe all fares are one way.. I've done that before, flown the JB flight to JFK (which lands at a reasonable 9pm) and taken an AA flight back from LGA (to not give USAirways any money).

But if its about the miles.. well that's another story

LOL, you must need a lot less sleep than I do. I make day trips, and a 6:50am departure on B6 with a 9pm return would wreck me for the rest of the week. I'd also fly AA if they had a mid-evening flight, and if they ran bigger jets I'd be EXP in a heartbeat. My only problem with AA is that the 7am from PIT is always delayed becauce of crew rest -- they come in from either ORD or LGA on the last flight the night before.

As an aside, I think all of B6, US, and AA charge one-ways on that route, not sure about CO or DL, but you are right, its a nice route to mix airlines if need be. I've taken a good hard look, and I actually think US is the best carrier from PIT-NYC despite the dirty planes and cheap wine. They run the biggest planes which mean they aren't as quick to cancel as RJs, the 7:40am from PIT-LGA is almost always on-time, and re-routes when needed through DCA are usually a snap. I do intend to fly B6 as a thank you for bringing the fares down, just waiting until after the thunderstorm season.

PHL has a higher average fare - $164 vs $145 @ PIT - by virtue of the average distance flown being further - 1110 mi vs 900 mi.


Thanks, for adding in the BTS numbers, Jim. With a longer average flight and the drop in unit cost associated with the longer segments, I'd be curious to see how the net plays out for each. it might be closer than I think, but then again I'm not an expert at much except eating BBQ and drinking beer. :D

PIT has an excellent concentration of large corporations in their own right. Alcoa, PPG, Heinz, etc. are all corporately HQ'd in the PIT area. That doesn't even scratch the surface of the corporate presense in PIT.

... but then again, how does it compare to the corporate presence in PHL and vicinity?

With a longer average flight and the drop in unit cost associated with the longer segments, I'd be curious to see how the net plays out for each.
While I certainly don't have a formula for "stage length" adjustments to CASM, a difference of only 210 miles shouldn't change the cost enough to offset the yield difference between PIT and PHL. The "stage length adjusted" curves I've seen show that the 210 mile difference would lower CASM less than 1/2 cent, still leaving PHL at a disadvantage. Of course, if WN (or other lcc's) keep adding flights at PIT, the yield advantage it enjoys will decline.

Just for comparison, PHL's yield in 1Q07 was identical to 1Q06 - 14.8 cents. PIT's dropped to the 16.2 cents from 17.8 in 1Q06, and CLT dropped to 22.0 cents (862 mile average distance) from 23.3 in 1Q06.

I also failed to note that these yields are for all traffic, not just US'.

Jim

I'll second the BBQ - a few of us FFOCUS folks are getting together tomorrow in Statesville, NC to eat a little.

I'll second the BBQ - a few of us FFOCUS folks are getting together tomorrow in Statesville, NC to eat a little.

I am going to miss you guys by a day :(. Damn 2 hours on 40....

The decline of the Pittsburgh airport is reflecting the severe decline of the Pittsburgh area in general.

The city has just 312,000 people living within the city proper (down from almost 700,000 in the early 1960s), and the metro area is now below 2.4 million residents (down from 4 million in the 1960s). That's a larger percentage decline in population than what hit Detroit, Michigan in the same time period.

Economically, it was once a major Fortune 500 corporate hub and entrepreneurial center, as well as an employment center. Today, that's all changed. US Steel is trying to sell its corporate headquarters to raise desperately-needed cash. Mellon Bank and other major corporate citizens are gone.

The city of Philadelphia has lost population (down from 1.8 million to 1.4 million in the same time period), but the metro area has grown to over 7 million people.

When US had to decide which city to bet its future on -- Philadelphia or Pittsburgh -- it chose Philly, for obvious reasons.

If long-haul through PIT was a massive opportunity for another airline, one would have charged in years ago. Unfortunately, one hasn't, because it isn't. It's much like St. Louis in that regard -- another city with a similarly collapsing population and economy.

Long story short, PIT doesn't have the volume or traffic to support the PIT hub, and there just isn't enough demand to support the O&D traffic that is still there. With population still plunging and a majority of young people who leave never returning, PIT's prospects don't look good long-term either. The city needs to take control of its economic and demographic problems if it wants to see new air service -- i.e. do the things necessary to attract businesses who fly to the west coast.

Long story short, PIT doesn't have the volume or traffic to support the PIT hub, and there just isn't enough demand to support the O&D traffic that is still there. With population still plunging and a majority of young people who leave never returning, PIT's prospects don't look good long-term either. The city needs to take control of its economic and demographic problems if it wants to see new air service -- i.e. do the things necessary to attract businesses who fly to the west coast.

I do understand and, unfortunately, agree with many of your points. But I keep returning to the fact that the route in question consistently sold out... even back when they used an A-321 on the route.

Again, I'm not in the airline industry, but nobody in this thread has managed to coherently explain to me the disconnect between 100% full aircraft and discontinuing flights.....hub or no hub.

I usually park in the airport lot and they keep expanding it (took some of the employee lot since so many less employees) and it's always full mid-week, and so are the off airport lots. So people are flying from PIT.

I don't expect it to go back to a full hub. But I don't understand why they keep cutting back when flights are full. I'm willing to pay more (well my company is) to get a non-stop. My flight next week to LAX is over $600. I couldn't get the morning non-stop on the return next Friday because it's soldout (booked last Monday), they are currently running both morning and evening. So why cutback to 1 per day next month?

I second the notion that there isn't enough volume or demand to support a PIT hub. Unfortunately the local govt was duped into building such a fine airport.

US Steel is trying to sell its corporate headquarters to raise desperately-needed cash. Mellon Bank and other major corporate citizens are gone.

You know, your post would come across as much more credible if you at least had your facts straight. So let's correct them:

USX, like many tenants of headquarter buildings bearing their name does not own the building. As a fact, it has not owned the building since 1982.

The Mellon Bank Center in Philly is not owned by Mellon Bank. Comcast Center won't be owned by Comcast, and if we follow your implication to it's logical conclusion, it's a sign of the impending collapse of the Philadelphia economy. Oddly enough, another tall building in Philadelphia, the PNCBank Center, seems to actually be owned by PNC, who, as you know, is headquartered in..... wait for it..... Pittsburgh.

Mellon has announced (quite publicly) that they intend to actually add jobs to the Pittsburgh area with the BNY merger.

Long story short, PIT doesn't have the volume or traffic to support the PIT hub, and there just isn't enough demand to support the O&D traffic that is still there.

"There is not enough demand to support the O&D that is still there" is one of the more nonsensical things I've seen written here in quite some time. That aside, there is something on the order of a million more O&D boardings every year at PIT more now that it's been dehubbed. Go figure.

US is repeating the run-and-hide from every conceivable form of competition routine, just on a different scale than the 1990s. Sooner or later, Tempe is going to run out of "profitable" or "more profitable" places to deploy aircraft, as well as butchering the route system (there are a finite number of people who will voluntarily fly thru PHL the second time).

But if you want to rag on an area with a tanking economy (despite the fact that it has more O&D than CLT), at least try to cite things that are factually correct or even relevant.

O&D numbers keep rising, probably primarily because fares keep dropping. Obviously it will probably be never that O&D increase will make up for loss of connecting traffic. However, I know its a big sign when the airport keeps creating more and more parking spaces and they are still as full. The bottom line is there's a long way to go (if ever) to get back to former glory, but I think we're going in the right direction.

O&D numbers keep rising, probably primarily because fares keep dropping. Obviously it will probably be never that O&D increase will make up for loss of connecting traffic. However, I know its a big sign when the airport keeps creating more and more parking spaces and they are still as full. The bottom line is there's a long way to go (if ever) to get back to former glory, but I think we're going in the right direction.

Every time I am driving around the new sections of the extended parking lot (practically in Beaver County), and STILL have trouble finding a parking space, I laugh to my self thinking that 'yeah...nobody is flying from PIT'.

I'd love to know the actual reason. What I would love even more is to not lose a flight on which I rely.

I understand what you are saying about "spitting the usual 'US Sucks'" not necessarily being productive. At the same time, there are circumstances which warrant the blowing off of some steam. I think you'd probably agree with that.


More than agree.

I guess my frustration is that some here only complain in the most childish sarcastic way possible (not you btw). Not sure if they are just miserable people or think they are the cat's meow but I think most of us come here to learn, ask questions and yes - sometimes rant. But there are a select few here that spin absolutely everything about US in the worse possible light and I submit that its beyond not productive, its wrong.

I've said more than once that US has serious issues needing to be fixed but IMHO those who childishly complain about everything loose all creditability.

(wonder if I get a special prize for complaining about the complainers :) )

I do understand and, unfortunately, agree with many of your points. But I keep returning to the fact that the route in question consistently sold out... even back when they used an A-321 on the route.

Again, I'm not in the airline industry, but nobody in this thread has managed to coherently explain to me the disconnect between 100% full aircraft and discontinuing flights.....hub or no hub.

Pan Am was flying consistently full planes right up to the day they stopped flying. Those seats were sold at a steep loss, but I remember many of my parents' friends expressing amazement that Pan Am had shut down, talking about "full planes," etc.

I am willing to wager that a great deal of the seats being sold from PIT are low-yield versus seats they could sell on other routes.

I strongly believe that US is "using" the fact that there are now less connections through PIT to support their claim that PIT doesn't have the O&D to support the number of flights it once had. I think this is a crock. It's easy enough to manipulate the numbers to your advantage when you eliminate the access.

Imagine how much more operationally efficient the airline would be if pax who don't NEED to connect through PHL could connect through a hub (or "Focus City") which is not subject to the same choking ATC and weather problems to which PHL is subject? And with more connections through PIT, agents would have greater flexibility to re-book pax during irregular ops. It would be much cheaper in the long run (and customers would be much more satisfied), but I guess the spreadsheets don't take this into account.

The Mellon Bank Center in Philly is not owned by Mellon Bank. Comcast Center won't be owned by Comcast, and if we follow your implication to it's logical conclusion, it's a sign of the impending collapse of the Philadelphia economy. Oddly enough, another tall building in Philadelphia, the PNCBank Center, seems to actually be owned by PNC, who, as you know, is headquartered in..... wait for it..... Pittsburgh.

OK, CluebyFour, you win.

Pittsburgh is a thriving metropolis with an exploding population of eager full-fare paying customers, and US Airways is discontinuing service to the city in favor of dying Philadelphia simply to screw over the hardworking residents of PIT. As this happens, evil executives in a dark office tower in Phoenix, surrounded by storm clouds -- faces lit up by bursts of lightning -- cackle evilly and shout "YES! Again, the mighty people of Pittsburgh cower before us!"

Considering that the Pittsburgh economy has never been stronger, that employment has never been higher, and that United, Northwest, Delta, and JetBlue are all rushing in to start service from Pittsburgh to destinations around the world, however, their evil plan will fail.

It's a good thing, too. It would be ill-advised for Pittsburgh, an economic dynamo with a surging population, to be so poorly served by a major carrier!

:rolleyes:

I strongly believe that US is "using" the fact that there are now less connections through PIT to support their claim that PIT doesn't have the O&D to support the number of flights it once had. I think this is a crock. It's easy enough to manipulate the numbers to your advantage when you eliminate the access.

Imagine how much more operationally efficient the airline would be if pax who don't NEED to connect through PHL could connect through a hub (or "Focus City") which is not subject to the same choking ATC and weather problems to which PHL is subject? And with more connections through PIT, agents would have greater flexibility to re-book pax during irregular ops. It would be much cheaper in the long run (and customers would be much more satisfied), but I guess the spreadsheets don't take this into account.

If this would have worked in the 2000s, US Airways wouldn't have gone through two bankruptcies.

Customers have spoken. They want low fares and nonstop flights -- not median fares and "convenient connections."

If there is demand for the missing flights from PIT to the west coast, other airlines will be more than happy to step in and provide them. However, I suspect most of the growth in O&D traffic is short-haul Southwest flying, and that PIT's economy cannot support frequent long-haul service. If it could, it would be getting more of it.

The bellyaching about PIT reminds me of the bellyaching about STL's problems, and I honestly feel badly for the poor economic state these once great cities are in. The reality, however, is not that AA and US are planning evil cutbacks to punish the cities, but that the cities cannot support the high fares and high demand necessary to support continued long-haul flying. As they continue to shrink in population and economy, they have inevitably transformed from cities where people connected to go places into cities where the city's own residents have to connect to go places.

The only remedy, long term, is fixing the broken economies of those two towns.

Customers have spoken. They want low fares and nonstop flights -- not median fares and "convenient connections."



Yes, when they have the capability of flying nonstop. After all, if you live in PHL or PHL is your destination....you basically have no way of avoiding PHL.

But US serves a multitude of smaller stations whose pax must connect somewhere. Eliminate PIT as a connecting point, and unless you're headed South you're basically stuck with PHL if you take US. US doesn't look so attractive anymore, and alot of these smaller stations are also served by US's competitors. US is basically handing their customers (who by now are fed up with PHL) over to the competition.

I think I will go to my grave lamenting the de-hubbing of PIT. :(

If this would have worked in the 2000s, US Airways wouldn't have gone through two bankruptcies.


You're the second one on this thread to blame PIT for the 2 bankruptcies. I wonder if this is detailed in the BK filings......I should go check that out.

Every time I am driving around the new sections of the extended parking lot (practically in Beaver County), and STILL have trouble finding a parking space, I laugh to my self thinking that 'yeah...nobody is flying from PIT'.

:D

Pan Am was flying consistently full planes right up to the day they stopped flying. Those seats were sold at a steep loss, but I remember many of my parents' friends expressing amazement that Pan Am had shut down, talking about "full planes," etc.

I am willing to wager that a great deal of the seats being sold from PIT are low-yield versus seats they could sell on other routes.

My fares, which I typically buy 21+ days out generally range between $280 and $400. This is not a sarcastic question, I sincerely don't know the answer: Does that sound like it could be a steep loss?

Every time I am driving around the new sections of the extended parking lot (practically in Beaver County), and STILL have trouble finding a parking space, I laugh to my self thinking that 'yeah...nobody is flying from PIT'.

Yep, they're still flying, and unfortunately, they're flying through PHL now :td:

What US forgot in PIT was that it was a valuable east coast hub that was not subjected to the ATC nightmare of the PHL-NYC-WAS alleyway...

Running connections through PIT just made more sense. Far less delays meant that planes were in the air more - which is the only way the airline is making money. The airline's not making money when the plane is 20th in departure and spends an hour on the tarmac waiting to take off in PHL.

In addition, it attracted traffic that would have not, for geography reasons, wanted to fly to PHL to connect to the midwest or west coast. Does somebody in BUF want to fly the whole way to PHL, 400 miles out of the way, in order to connect to LAX? Whereas the BUF, CMH, DAY, etc. passenger would not think twice about connecting in PIT for a westbound flight, nobody wants to add an extra 2 hours of flight time by making the same connection in PHL. They lose traffic to the UA's and AA's of the world because people, in general, think that it doesn't make sense to go east in order to go west....

They lose traffic to the UA's and AA's of the world because people, in general, think that it doesn't make sense to go east in order to go west....

Exactly......and add to the back tracking, the ever present delays in PHL that just make that trip even longer. When I go west, I fly United, I'll take ORD anyday over PHL.

OK, CluebyFour, you win.

Pittsburgh is a thriving metropolis with an exploding population of eager full-fare paying customers, and US Airways is discontinuing service to the city in favor of dying Philadelphia simply to screw over the hardworking residents of PIT. As this happens, evil executives in a dark office tower in Phoenix, surrounded by storm clouds -- faces lit up by bursts of lightning -- cackle evilly and shout "YES! Again, the mighty people of Pittsburgh cower before us!"

Shall I run thru the logical fallacies of debate that you employ in this post, as opposed to the factual inaccuracies in the prior?

At the end of the day, (and I cannot repeat myself slowly in a textual format), you are attempting to rag on an area and an economy that is in the process of rebound from the largest industrial-economic shift in the history of the US.

I'd love to hear your theories about the absolute failure of DL and CO, who maintain hubs in cities with marginally smaller populations (CVG and CLE) respectively, and who trail US in recent bankruptcies. How do those poor people at those airlines manage to eek out money from such pitiful areas?

However, I suspect most of the growth in O&D traffic is short-haul Southwest flying, and that PIT's economy cannot support frequent long-haul service.

You suspect incorrectly. Really--want to know two of the bigger O&D jolts in the last 2 years at PIT, by destination? Wait for it....... PHX and LAS.

Wait a second, I think LCC has hubs in..... wait for it..... PHX and LAS.

So, absent the "more profitable route" thing, whose strategic value is close-ended (and failed miserably in the 1990s), got anything else besides the sarcastic (and inaccurate) commentary about the state of the Western PA economy?

Sooner or later, you may want to accept the premise that there are a modicum of people in the Pittsburgh area who want to go to places and that US Airways is foolish for not taking them there (eg, cutting back flight to PHX).

Again, if you want to rag on Pittsburgh for declining population, that's fine (as hard as many will find this to believe, I'm one of those people who lived there and left). However, the remainder of what you have tried to say is littered with inaccuracies or the sarcasm covering up for being called on said inaccuracies that it's tough to read seriously.

The thing is..... the evening PIT/LAX run was booked solid even before when they were using a A-321 on the route. Booked solid when, inexplicably they switched to a -320. Then they ax it. I'm no airline industry expert, but it seems to me that a run that is consistently flying at capacity is a good thing.


There is actually a simple answer to this question. There were actually FIVE nonstops per day PIT-LAX until about 2001. This dropped to three per day, all on A321s which, as you mention were consistently at or near capacity. The frequency then dropped to two A321s per day (also full or nearly so) then, recently to two A320s per day and finally to a seasonal schedule of two N/S per day for roughly the summer months and only one A320 per day for the rest of the year (though last autumn they did continue the summer schedule of two N/S flights per day until December).

The A321s were full becuase at the time US had far more connecting PAX going through PIT and so needed more capacity to the west coast from PIT. Now that US has decreased daily flights from PIT from over 500 at one time to the current 120 or so, the logic is that PIT needs less N/S LAX service to service the diminishing connecting passenger needs.

Nevertheless, I agree with many of you that US has absolutely miscaluculated by forcing the existing PIT O&D to connect to the west coast. My flights LAX/PIT are regularly full to oversold. The data shows that on O&D alone PIT could more than fill two A320s per day to LAX and this does not even include the remaining connecting traffic that still utilizes PIT.

If US drops the remaining N/S to PIT (and even if it doesn't) I have no doubt that either Delta (lean, progressive, savy and expanding at LAX) WN (slowing down but still possible with big PIT presence) or United (LAX hub and US code share partner) will begin non-stop service from PIT to LAX.

US has made blunder after blunder over the past decade +, and the West coast cutbacks from PIT are just one more in a long series of events driving away one of their most loyal customer bases- the PIT O&D biz traveler. I do not recall paying less than $600 RT on US to/from the west coast in years and do those routes 1-2 times per month. There are clearly many who would jump ship like myself to another carrier if US cuts back further or if another carrier jumps in with direct service.

The decline of the Pittsburgh airport is reflecting the severe decline of the Pittsburgh area in general.

The city has just 312,000 people living within the city proper (down from almost 700,000 in the early 1960s), and the metro area is now below 2.4 million residents (down from 4 million in the 1960s). That's a larger percentage decline in population than what hit Detroit, Michigan in the same time period.

Just to correct one point: the Pittsburgh Metro Area never had a population of 4 million. I beleive the MSA peaked at around 2.6 million. PIT is still in the top 25 metro areas in terms of population. Additionally, according to the latest projections, while the city itself will roughly remain stable population-wise after 2010, the metro area is projected to grow to over 3 million by 2030. Not the Sunbelt by a long shot but decent growth.

I believe that US's biggest problem by far is the fact that the PHL hub is untenable in the long run. Period. Amazing city, but terrible facility and poor location air traffic-wise and geographically. It has been and remains a logistical nightmare.

Exactly......and add to the back tracking, the ever present delays in PHL that just make that trip even longer. When I go west, I fly United, I'll take ORD anyday over PHL.

It's akin to making me, from Pennsylvania, connect in Boston to fly to Florida - who wants to do that?

It's akin to making me, from Pennsylvania, connect in Boston to fly to Florida - who wants to do that?

Want to drive with me? It will be faster!! :)

There is an interesting article in today's PG. Looks like our loyalty to US is costing us getting service from other airlines.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07224/808298-243.stm

<snip>

The city has just 312,000 people living within the city proper (down from almost 700,000 in the early 1960s), and the metro area is now below 2.4 million residents (down from 4 million in the 1960s).

<snip>

The city of Philadelphia has lost population (down from 1.8 million to 1.4 million in the same time period), but the metro area has grown to over 7 million people.

<snip>



Living in Pittsburgh with plenty of relatives in the Philadelphia area, I agree that metro Philadelphia is growing at a faster rate, and has a higher population density (roughly twice that of Pittsburgh), but it should be noted that it isn't exactly an apples-to-apples comparison to look at the *city* populations. The "city" of Pittsburgh is much more geographically/topologically confined than the "city" of Philadelphia: Pittsburgh proper is 58 square miles, while Philadelphia is 143 square miles.

In addition, it attracted traffic that would have not, for geography reasons, wanted to fly to PHL to connect to the midwest or west coast. Does somebody in BUF want to fly the whole way to PHL, 400 miles out of the way, in order to connect to LAX? Whereas the BUF, CMH, DAY, etc. passenger would not think twice about connecting in PIT for a westbound flight, nobody wants to add an extra 2 hours of flight time by making the same connection in PHL. They lose traffic to the UA's and AA's of the world because people, in general, think that it doesn't make sense to go east in order to go west....

Some of this can be avoided when they start routing more East coast T/C traffic through PHX. I think you will see a lot of trips from the East Coast to PHX to connect to the West Coast. It does make some sense if you have to connect anyway it might as well be PHX. I'd rather do DCA-PHX-SFO then DCA-PIT to SFO...not sure why but I like getting the long haul underway, but that may be personal preference.

Believe it or not I'm a 3 year CP and was a GP/SP before that and have NEVER set foot in PIT. I guess that shows you the decline of that airport in the US system.

Sean

Sean

Living in Pittsburgh with plenty of relatives in the Philadelphia area, I agree that metro Philadelphia is growing at a faster rate, and has a higher population density (roughly twice that of Pittsburgh), but it should be noted that it isn't exactly an apples-to-apples comparison to look at the *city* populations. The "city" of Pittsburgh is much more geographically/topologically confined than the "city" of Philadelphia: Pittsburgh proper is 58 square miles, while Philadelphia is 143 square miles.

As another PA resident, let me help some understand what defines "city" populations around here....

In PA, the "city" of, let's say Harrisburg, might have 60,000 people. Small town, right? Well, there's actually probably 150,000 people that have "Lancaster" postal addresses. It is possible to have a Harrisburg address and not live in the "city" of Harrisburg. Compared to say, Springfileld, Missouri....When you have a Springfield postal address, you live in the "city". You vote for mayor, city council, etc....not so in "postal Harrisburg."

Metro areas are a much better indicator of population figures. Shoot, if you took the metro area of Harrisburg, within the same geography of metro Philly, there's probably a million people there....same is so in Pittsburgh.

Some of this can be avoided when they start routing more East coast T/C traffic through PHX. I think you will see a lot of trips from the East Coast to PHX to connect to the West Coast. It does make some sense if you have to connect anyway it might as well be PHX. I'd rather do DCA-PHX-SFO then DCA-PIT to SFO...not sure why but I like getting the long haul underway, but that may be personal preference.

Believe it or not I'm a 3 year CP and was a GP/SP before that and have NEVER set foot in PIT. I guess that shows you the decline of that airport in the US system.

Sean

Sean

About 4-5 years ago I dropped US with the bulk of my travel....who wants to fly from BWI - PHX - MCI? Or BWI - PHX - DFW? For that matter, what if I flew out of PIT, BUF, CLE, etc....most of my travel is/was westbound, and not to the west coast.
IMO they're expecting me to fly on UA metal via ORD. That's probably why they're letting PIT die....

The A321s were full becuase at the time US had far more connecting PAX going through PIT and so needed more capacity to the west coast from PIT. Now that US has decreased daily flights from PIT from over 500 at one time to the current 120 or so, the logic is that PIT needs less N/S LAX service to service the diminishing connecting passenger needs.

Well, it only took ninety posts, but here is an answer that connects the dots for me. Thanks Wave.

Now, if somebody could please explain to me what O&D is? :confused:

Origination & Destination traffic - passengers that start or end their trip at a given airport. This is different from Enplaned passengers (which you'll usually see in airport press releases) - the number of passengers who board a plane at a given airport - since connecting passengers also board planes at the connecting airport.

In the case of a hypothetical passenger traveling PIT-PHL-PVD, the passenger would be
- both an O&D and enplaned passenger at PIT since they both originated their trip and boarded a plane @ PIT,
- only an enplaned passenger at PHL since they boarded a plane but didn't originate or end their trip @ PHL,
- an O&D passenger at PVD since they ended their trip there.

Jim

This is my first ever post. I have been trolling for quite some time and finally decided to join.

Anyway, I sit here currently, on our great PIT free wifi and our chairs that are aging to say the least and wait to get on my flight that is oversold just like every Monday morning and every thursday or friday when I come back home. It somewhat reminds me of how it used to be... all these people waiting to fly to somewhere from here. Then I look down the B concourse ahead of me and see nothing but emptiness and a restroom or two. Sad sad sad. :(

Welcome to flyertalk, PITFLYER50!

(You know, with so many of us PIT flyers on this thread, we should try to set up a 'do sometime. Not at the Harris Grill, unfortunately, though :( )

Welcome to flyertalk, PITFLYER50!

(You know, with so many of us PIT flyers on this thread, we should try to set up a 'do sometime. Not at the Harris Grill, unfortunately, though :( )

There have been two, actually. One was in historicFT times (like 2001, maybe)? The other involved a Pirate game and various microbrews.

I am there!!!!

Origination & Destination traffic - passengers that start or end their trip at a given airport. This is different from Enplaned passengers (which you'll usually see in airport press releases) - the number of passengers who board a plane at a given airport - since connecting passengers also board planes at the connecting airport.

In the case of a hypothetical passenger traveling PIT-PHL-PVD, the passenger would be
- both an O&D and enplaned passenger at PIT since they both originated their trip and boarded a plane @ PIT,
- only an enplaned passenger at PHL since they boarded a plane but didn't originate or end their trip @ PHL,
- an O&D passenger at PVD since they ended their trip there.

Jim

Thank you! Much clearer now.

This is my first ever post. I have been trolling for quite some time and finally decided to join.

Anyway, I sit here currently, on our great PIT free wifi and our chairs that are aging to say the least and wait to get on my flight that is oversold just like every Monday morning and every thursday or friday when I come back home. It somewhat reminds me of how it used to be... all these people waiting to fly to somewhere from here. Then I look down the B concourse ahead of me and see nothing but emptiness and a restroom or two. Sad sad sad. :(

You'll want to avoid looking to the left as you pass through B concourse. Then you won't have to see the closed B Concourse USAir Club.

Welcome to flyertalk, PITFLYER50!

(You know, with so many of us PIT flyers on this thread, we should try to set up a 'do sometime. Not at the Harris Grill, unfortunately, though :( )

So sad about the Harris Grill. :(

If someone can organize a PIT DO, at least something good will have come out of this thread. :p

Related to the topic of this thread, I got screwed last week by US at the check-in counter @ PIT, getting to the front of the check-in line 44.9 minutes before scheduled departure. :mad:

The PIT-BOS and PIT-LGA fares are really low, historically speaking, so I can't complain too much about the reduction in flights. However, PIT-SFO has really suffered.

I do PIT- LAS every week and the red-eye or 12:45 (soon to be 12:50) are my only choices back, and usually the 12:45 doesnt allow me to get a lot of work done(barring upgrade). So I end up taking the red-eye back most week and am a total zombie the following day and run at 50% anyway. :( That being said, I am home in time for when my wife comes home on friday!:)

If someone can organize a PIT DO, at least something good will have come out of this thread. :p


I agree - let's start with a gathering, and then try to work up to a DO. I'll post a thread in CommunityBuzz (http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8225312) for the week of Sept. 10-14. Come on over, everyone, if you're interested.

I will be in China.:(

I agree - let's start with a gathering, and then try to work up to a DO. I'll post a thread in CommunityBuzz (http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8225312) for the week of Sept. 10-14. Come on over, everyone, if you're interested.

OK this may sounds stupid, but what's a DO? I've reached the bottom of the barrel in my acronyms and still can't come up with it. Thanks!

OK this may sounds stupid, but what's a DO? I've reached the bottom of the barrel in my acronyms and still can't come up with it. Thanks!

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=480017

DO: noun (pl. dos or do’s) informal, chiefly Brit. a party or other social event.

Jim

Thanks a lot M4Y & BB......see I couldn't sleep tonight thinking about this! @:-)
There was my problem......working in a totally acronym business, I went down the acronym road with this, instead of thinking of it literally as a word. Do...Do...Do....when I say it out loud, it makes sense now. Then I think doo doo and that takes me down a totally different road (not unbeknown to US, but that's another thread!!)

Thanks again for the clarification.....I'm going back to bed now! :D

DO: noun (pl. dos or do’s) informal, chiefly Brit. a party or other social event.

Jim

You are becoming quite the language person! ;)

You are becoming quite the language person! ;)

Now that BoeingBoy is retired, he has time to dabble in other pursuits.

All can be answered with an internet connection.....:D

Jim

It's a shame that US at PIT has gone downhill over the years. While I've been dedicated to UA for most of my flying career, some of my fondest memories from PIT were being able to take direct flights to LGW and FRA when I was in high school.

I'm not expert on the aviation industry, but it seems to me that there's a correlation between the decline in the regional economy and the decline of US presence. Is the economical decline the cause, I have no idea, perhaps it's just a coincidence.

What's unfortunate in my case is that the ALB-PIT direct flights (was 3x daily up until 8/1) have gone to 0x daily. Now I have to connect in ORD, IAD or PHL, none of which are real joys during the thunderstorm months. If I wasn't a total segment warrior I'd be more upset at the lack of direct options, but I can guarantee you that the last place I'll ever connect is PHL - the ALB-PHL flights are consistently late and/or canceled.

Personally, UAs increase to mainline aircraft in the summer months (including a 752 from ORD in the evening) really makes me wish they would expand their presence there; it'd be a great alternative to IAD IMHO.

Speaking of that 752 on UA, its trip out is a morning direct to LAX with a stop in Denver. If they were to ever keep it through the winter it would fill the hole that US leaves when they go to evening only service.

I don't have it at hand, but I thought the PIT-LAX O&D was something like 300-500/day. They seem to be leaving straight O&D traffic between two points on the floor. Unreal.

All can be answered with an internet connection.....:D

Jim

Yes, dictionary.com for one!

I don't have it at hand, but I thought the PIT-LAX O&D was something like 300-500/day.
Averaged 377 per day in the 1st quarter, with US having the largest share - 42.28% or 159 per day average.

Jim

Averaged 377 per day in the 1st quarter, with US having the largest share - 42.28% or 159 per day average.

Jim

So 2x321 or thereabouts. They run what, 1x319?

So much for "lucrative O&D traffic."

So 2x321 or thereabouts. They run what, 1x319?

So much for "lucrative O&D traffic."

Or they could fill 3x319 per day just on O&D by my calculation. That would not even include the remaining connecting pax that still go through PIT. Clue is correct, after Labor day it goes to 1x319 per day.

They could seemingly run 4x319 per day and make a profit (inc. connecting) assuming the revenue per seat on that route is what we think it is.

It's would be difficult to fathom one of the other legacies (Delta? U?) or even Southwest not jumping into that market. Delta is expanding at LAX and is really turning it around. The PIT-SLC flights have been a pretty big success for them.

Oh yeah, my flight tonight PIT-LAX was, once again, 100% full. This is with a schedule of two dailies currently on 320s.

I'm curious, are they able to get any type of pricing power after PIT-LAX drops to 1 per day?

I'm curious, are they able to get any type of pricing power after PIT-LAX drops to 1 per day?

I just booked yesterday for Sept 28 to Oct 5, $423, non-stop each way.

Very slightly off topic, but my upgrade rate on this route has been far better than last summer even though load factors seem to be the same. Less Elites at US perhaps?

Last summer an upgrade was inconcievable on the A320 on the direct PIT-LAX flights. I would have to book through CLT to get 1rst on the A321 CLT-LAX leg, especially when the PIT-LAX N/S was nearly full, (in order to avoid getting a middle seat and a likely getting an upgrade on the CLT-LAX leg). Now that the A321s are F/16 and I have a decent shot of upgrade on the N/S I generally fly direct.

Man I sure could use the hub back at this moment. My PIT-LAS flight is currently delayed over 2 hours. Next one isnt until 830 tonight. :(

Man I sure could use the hub back at this moment. My PIT-LAS flight is currently delayed over 2 hours. Next one isnt until 830 tonight. :(

Refund it and walk over to Southwest.

Since there are so many Pittsburghers who posted to this thread...just a heads-up about the Pittsburgh meet we talked about a few pages back. Some of us are getting together tomorrow (9/7/07) for lunch - there are more details here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=725024).

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07255/816871-100.stm

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07255/816871-100.stm

Reading this article brings only one phrase to mind: BOHICA!!!!

At the rate PIT as a US focus city is shrinking, does anyone have any bets on how long it will be before it becomes just another station with service to CLT, PHL, DCA, PHX, and LAS? Any bets on when/if they'll shut the club down? I can see PIT becoming another BWI.

Why would he use the occasion of showcasing the new plane to bring negative news? Wipes out any positive publicity. If they want to leave, just leave, don't drag it on. Last one out, turn out the lights. I'm planning to head to Delta/Sky Team. I can't take any more crap from them.

"It is not as if we reduce 10 to 15 flights that means the community won't have service."

You're right Doug, we'll just be flying on another airline.

Why would he use the occasion of showcasing the new plane to bring negative news? Wipes out any positive publicity.

That's an excellent point. To call it "poorly timed" would be a compliment.

At the rate PIT as a US focus city is shrinking, does anyone have any bets on how long it will be before it becomes just another station with service to CLT, PHL, DCA, PHX, and LAS? Any bets on when/if they'll shut the club down? I can see PIT becoming another BWI.

With Doug's implication of 10-15 more flights cut, that would bring PIT to around 95-100 daily flights. Any more cuts and PIT would barely even qualify as a focus city.

It may end up just serving PHL, CLT, PHX, LAS, DCA, LGA, BOS, and several Florida cities (MCO, FLL,TPA,RSW?). I am guessing about 40 flights per day ultimately. Southwest will be the largest carrier at PIT with Delta or United as strong contenders for #2.

I do think they'll keep the club opened though as there will still be quite a few elites flying from PIT due to the legacy of the carrier. They'll probably just shrink the club size though.

Hopefully another carrier will consider PIT as a mini hub but chances are not great. At least the costs have come down tremendously and just about every US carrier serves the airport. Great for leisure travelers. Not good for the biz traveler though.

C'est La Vie.

Why would he use the occasion of showcasing the new plane to bring negative news? Wipes out any positive publicity. If they want to leave, just leave, don't drag it on. Last one out, turn out the lights. I'm planning to head to Delta/Sky Team. I can't take any more crap from them.

I know what you mean. I've been loyal to US for a long time, and to *A airlines for longer than that, even when I lived in a DL-dominated city. Now, though, I'm seriously thinking of switching over to Sky Team. If I am going to have to connect through PHX or LAS to go out west, why not CVG or SLC instead? I already need to connect to go Europe, so that's not a big switch....maybe I'll try to status match before I fly AF to Rome this Fall.

"It is not as if we reduce 10 to 15 flights that means the community won't have service."

Yep, Doug, we know you're all about community service, not profits and nothing else....

Updated article:

http://www.pittsburghpostgazette.com/pg/07256/817090-28.stm

From Kent George:

"A market place will dictate what happens ... there was a demand for Southwest; there was a demand for JetBlue, AirTran, United, Continental, Northwest. Those carriers are doing well, all of them are doing well. How come it's only US Airways not doing well?"

Yeah, while I am not surprised (and still amazed that some of you guys still keep flying them after all this) at the announcement the timing is very odd.. I mean the one day that they can guarantee good press in Pittsburgh (a Steelers plane, come on!) they find a way to still let the papers put a negative spin on it. I'm betting 60-70 flights total, with the bulk going to hubs, most of the big Florida cities, a few other major cities on the East Coast, and maybe a handful heading West past the Mississipi.

As someone else said, you can't shrink into profitablity, especially when the choices become connect on USAirways A-B-C for same price as XYZ Airline A-D-C... less and less people are now enamored with Dividend Miles.

Yeah, while I am not surprised (and still amazed that some of you guys still keep flying them after all this) at the announcement the timing is very odd.. I mean the one day that they can guarantee good press in Pittsburgh (a Steelers plane, come on!) they find a way to still let the papers put a negative spin on it. I'm betting 60-70 flights total, with the bulk going to hubs, most of the big Florida cities, a few other major cities on the East Coast, and maybe a handful heading West past the Mississipi.

As someone else said, you can't shrink into profitablity, especially when the choices become connect on USAirways A-B-C for same price as XYZ Airline A-D-C... less and less people are now enamored with Dividend Miles.

While I don't excuse much of what they do, I can at least appreciate that they were candid if they are indeed contemplating more cuts. The press asks them at every turn, so avoiding the question, even to focus on a positive event, is impossible. Even their earnings calls go like this: "[so and so from JP Morgan] can you talk more about the RASMS blah blah, [so and so from Goldman sachs] are those figures mainline or blah blah, [intrepid reporter from the Beaver County Times] Can you talk about the number of flights from Pittsburgh International and your future plans?"

Seriously, US, just go. Kill the focus city and be done with us so other airlines can move in and we can switch.

While I don't excuse much of what they do, I can at least appreciate that they were candid if they are indeed contemplating more cuts.


This is one instance in which I am glad they are perpetual liars. Ironically, this is probably the one instance in which they are not lying. :(

I still think US is severly hampered by the fact that they no longer have a viable connecting hub in the middle of the country. (PIT is at least close enough to the Midwest to qualify.)

Interestingly, the gradual dismantling of Pit happened in tandem with the gradual decline of US's service and operations.

Yeah, while I am not surprised (and still amazed that some of you guys still keep flying them after all this) at the announcement the timing is very odd.. I mean the one day that they can guarantee good press in Pittsburgh (a Steelers plane, come on!) they find a way to still let the papers put a negative spin on it. I'm betting 60-70 flights total, w