I saw on usairways.com that they have a new interactive page for the new 767 Envoy seat. It is obviously much nicer than the current Envoy seats......and it looks nice.....but it seems like they could have gone nicer. I guess the planes will probably only be around for 5 or so more years, so going top of the line wasn't really necessary. But they seem nice. I can't really remember......but have they always had a linen tray cover during meals? It seems to me that this is new. Anyway, I'm interested to hear what people think of them.

http://www.usairways.com/awa/content/traveltools/intheair/envoyfirst/envoyclass.aspx

Too little, too late.

Oh, and cutting the number of seats from 24 to 18 is bad too. :td:

Hopefully they cut the price to something fair given the quality and overall value.

The seats look quite nice, especially the near lie-flat position.

Of course, the downside has already been mentioned elsewhere by Art and others in that the number of 767 Envoy seats will now drop from 23 to 18 due (at least reportedly) to the larger footprint of the seat. I am obviously not a financial analyst for US, but it does seem counterproductive to upgrade your product while at the same time reducing supply, although I suppose the number of Envoy could be adjusted upward in the future if there was demand.

Nice seat. Too bad most of the international carriers had them 4 years ago.

Why didn't they go with the latest generation truly flat seats that BA, AC, UA and DL are installing?

Yes, the number of seats are dropping from 24 to 18, because of the larger seats. If I were running the show it would have been a toss-up for me to keep it 24 by removing economy or taking it down to 18.

The European trips during the summer are to a mix of lower yielding vacation destinations and higher yielding business markets. I have seen low loads in Envoy for the Stockholm, Venice, Barcelona, Athens (not always, though), and sometimes even Milan. But then again they fly routes like Zurich, Munich, and a second PHL-Frankfurt flight, where the Envoy loads should be higher. Then there are those in winter where 767s will be flying to Dublin, Brussels, Amsterdam, etc. where one would think there is Envoy demand (but then again its the winter). But I think the deciding factor was that a lot of 767 European markets are seasonal and the 767s go to the Carribean during the winter, where they would not need that number of Envoy seats, and more coach.

Honestly, if I were ahead of the reconfig and was looking towards revenue, I don't know what I would have done. It would be a toss-up with all of those Caribbean destinations and places like Cancun that they fly in the winter. I guess the numbers showed that taking it down was better. Would I like more Envoy, sure.....but I guess I see the rationale.

The one benefit that I see is that there was a loss of 1 row of envoy but only the addition of 1 coach row...instead of trying to pack in 2 and squeezing pitch. Only a gain of 1 seat after the reconfig (minus 6 envoy, plus 7 economy). At 32" pitch pre reconfig, the new pitch should be pretty comfortable in front of exit rows. Probably 33-34 inches.

Nice seat. Too bad most of the international carriers had them 4 years ago.

Why didn't they go with the latest generation truly flat seats that BA, AC, UA and DL are installing?

That's what I was thinking. They are in a great position now because many of other carriers have tipped their hands as to what they have picked or will be installing.

Instead of capitalizing on that knowledge and installing something similar (or better), they've chosen something that will be outdated before it is ever even installed.

And of course, the seat is only one (albeit large) part of the experience. If that's all they focus on, it's no wonder why they are removing seats.

That's what I was thinking. They are in a great position now because many of other carriers have tipped their hands as to what they have picked or will be installing.

Instead of capitalizing on that knowledge and installing something similar (or better), they've chosen something that will be outdated before it is ever even installed.

And of course, the seat is only one (albeit large) part of the experience. If that's all they focus on, it's no wonder why they are removing seats.

Ah no, the sandcastle thinks they are on top of it...they are just taking everyone elses old business seats and installing them in the envoy cabin.....now THAT is cutting edge for US....lol

The new seats look nice. How will Tempe screw it up???

The bitter pill is that we are losing 6 Envoy seats. Tempe would argue that in order to provide us with better seats, something's gotta give. My counter-argument would be that if you sell a product that people actually want to buy, demand will far exceed supply....and then you'll end up with alot of ticked off customers! (But Tempe should be used to dealing with ticked off customers by now.)

The "fair" compromise would have been to split the difference and offer 2 or 3 rows of increased pitch at the front of the Y cabin as a perk for elites, who will be the big losers in all of this, since this inevitably means that upgrade inventory will be reduced by as many seats as they are removing.

I saw on usairways.com that they have a new interactive page for the new 767 Envoy seat. It is obviously much nicer than the current Envoy seats......

http://www.usairways.com/awa/content/traveltools/intheair/envoyfirst/envoyclass.aspx

With this link I don't get an interactive page and I see what looks like the current A330 Envoy seat. Am I missing something?

With this link I don't get an interactive page and I see what looks like the current A330 Envoy seat. Am I missing something?

Bizarre! It was there earlier today. They must have taken it down for some reason.

With this link I don't get an interactive page and I see what looks like the current A330 Envoy seat. Am I missing something?

It has obviously been taken down. You weren't missing much. It was a cheaper and played-down version of the interactive tour of J that most airlines have had on their websites for years.

. . .It was a cheaper and played-down version of the [name just about anything] that most airlines have had . . .for years.

Well there's something new.

Sorry GotCalico4, I did a little creative editing to your response. . . the opportunity was too ripe to pass up. :p

Yeah, it's sure been taken down alright. Do you think it was a joke? The new seats looked horrible and way behind anything else out there. Another reason to nix "Envoy" for an future transatlantic travel.

Ian

Do you think it was a joke? The new seats looked horrible and way behind anything else out there.

I think you answered your own question, Ian. :)

Bizarre! It was there earlier today. They must have taken it down for some reason.

Ahhh, like everything else they've done recently, the link takedown was only half-as*ed... ;)

Here's the flash promo...

http://www.usairways.com/awa/content/traveltools/intheair/envoyfirst/envoy_seating.aspx

Well there's something new.

Sorry GotCalico4, I did a little creative editing to your response. . . the opportunity was too ripe to pass up. :p

:D So true! I just did an interactive tour of the new BA Club World, and then retook the Envoy tour. I'm in a fit of giggles right now . . .

... and I thought AA had patented the "wedgie seat"... those things look like they'd make boxers into a thong in no time flat!

Ahhh, like everything else they've done recently, the link takedown was only half-as*ed... ;)
http://www.usairways.com/awa/content/traveltools/intheair/envoyfirst/envoy_seating.aspx

Very funny Sean. How did you find this. I think they took it down because they forgot to add the Juniper Bank sponsorship logo in the corner of the IFE screen :D

In all seriousness though... please let's not scoff at an improvement. An improvement is after all an improvement. I know I would rather sit in this than a busted up A333 row 7 reject on a 757ETOPS.

In walking the tightrope of affordable TA service from PHL it is nice to see some small victory for comfort and experience. If you want to be pampered beyond imagination on your way over there are options for you:
LH PHL-FRA 11,362 in F
BA PHL-LHR 13,968 in F
AF PHL-CDG 13,534 in F
(based upon 10/07 advance purchase including a saturday night)

Lets keep in mind that US E PHL-FRA books at 3,012 a far cry from LH (even LH in B). If you add 300 for the row 1 sleeper then frankly this is quite the value.

OK - take it easy folks.

While it is a "small victory" there's also been some sacrifices to accomplish it. They're about one generation behind the rest of the world with this seat.

I feel sorry for everyone based in PHL that is committed to this airline geographically (that and the whole Eagles thing... ;) )

I just went through the Flash site and I noticed some mistakes. The picture showed a wine glass, and not a party cup. Under the "eat" section, I believe the "healthier" meal corresponds to the fact that they will dispatch your flight w/out food (!) - it's easy to loose weight when you don't eat. And I wonder what the "snacking station" will be all about... all you can eat chewy bars?

With all that being said - I still have 2 unused CP T/A upgrade certs. Anyone want them? They only thing they are guaranteed to give you is a headache.

By the way, Jordie, for an accurate comparison you need to compare C fares and not F fares. US doesn't have First class.

First let me say that I'm very glad that they are finally upgrading the 767 Envoy cabin. It really needed it.

The seats don't look great or terrible, they definitely aren't anything revolutionary. As someone mentioned earlier this is a bit of a stop gap measure though as these 767's are a bit long in the tooth. Would you put top shelf seating in if they planes won't be around in 5-7 years?

The kicker is downsizing the Envoy Cabin. I imagine 18 premium seats is the smallest amount on any TA widebody going out these days. This is terrible for elites, especially CP's who's already worthless TA upgrade coupons are now even more worthless. I'm certainly not going to pay for a Q fare over the lowest coach fare now in order to try to upgrade when there are only 18 seats to upgrade into. I will not make CP next year (taken much of my business to AA) but I don't really think I'll be losing out on much due to these sort of decisions.

As an aside, this is one of the worst "Flash" videos I've seen in a while. It runs very slowly and just has nothing in it that gets me excited about the product. Maybe that is why the pulled it. Really terrible marketing though.

Sean

By the way, Jordie, for an accurate comparison you need to compare C fares and not F fares. US doesn't have First class.

I was referring to if you wanted to be pampered... but...
To compare E to B (which is the acurate contrast)

October 12/13-October 22/23
LH PHL-FRA in B 8,087
US PHL-FRA in E 3,012

AF PHL-CDG in B 4,870
US PHL-CDG in E 2,932

BA PHL-LHR in B 3,770
US PHL-LGW in E 2,688

However, as pointed out elsewhere http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36857&st=100&start=100
the new seats are comparable to that offered by much of the competition, for example: NW/AA/CO.

October 12/13-October 22/23
LH PHL-FRA in B 8,087
US PHL-FRA in E 3,012

I just checked this one, and the US fare is for each way while the LH fare is round trip. The actual comparison for 10/12-10/22 is US $7828 vs LH $8086 including taxes/fees/etc.....only $258 difference. Not quite as dramatic as you attempted to illustrate......

Jim

I just checked this one, and the US fare is for each way while the LH fare is round trip. The actual comparison for 10/12-10/22 is US $7828 vs LH $8086 including taxes/fees/etc.....only $258 difference. Not quite as dramatic as you attempted to illustrate......

Jim

Jim,

With all due respect... please check the others too.

The fares I entered were RT.

Believe it or not, since early this AM the PHL-FRA fare is gone (maybe someone bought it?).

The US PHL-CDG is still 1466 each way - 2932 for the RT
The PHL-LGW is 1344 each way 2688 for the RT.

Definitely dramatic

However seemingly more volitle than barrels of sweet light crude.

Jordie

US PHL-FRA-PHL 10/12-10/22
Passenger Type Adult
Fare
PHL to FRA - Fare Basis CX0RY $3,798.00
Plus Fuel Surcharge $70.00
Subtotal $3,868.00
FRA to PHL - Fare Basis CX0RY $3,798.00
Plus Fuel Surcharge $70.00
Subtotal $3,868.00
Adjusted Base Fare $7,736.00
Total Fare $7,736.00
Tax: US International Arrival $15.10
Tax: US International Departure $15.10
Tax: Germany Domestic and International Security Charge $9.36
Fee: US Immigration $7.00
Fee: US Animal & Plant Health Inspection Svc. $5.00
Fee: US Customs User $5.50
Fee: US Passenger Facility Charge $4.50
September 11 Security Fee $2.50
Fee: Germany International Depature Passenger Service Fee $28.24
Total Per Passenger $7,828.30

US PHL-CDG-PHL 10/12-10/22
Passenger Type Adult
Fare
PHL to CDG - Fare Basis DA0RY $3,751.00
Plus Fuel Surcharge $85.00
Subtotal $3,836.00
CDG to PHL - Fare Basis CX0RY $4,061.50
Plus Fuel Surcharge $85.00
Subtotal $4,146.50
Adjusted Base Fare $7,982.50
Total Fare $7,982.50
Tax: US International Arrival $15.10
Tax: US International Departure $15.10
Tax: French Airport Tax $12.06
Tax: French Aviation Civile Tax $9.71
Tax: Passenger Solidarity Tax $55.15
Fee: US Immigration $7.00
Fee: US Animal & Plant Health Inspection Svc. $5.00
Fee: US Customs User $5.50
Fee: US Passenger Facility Charge $4.50
September 11 Security Fee $2.50
Fee: French International Passenger Service Charge $18.63
Total Per Passenger $8,132.75

US PHL-LGW-PHL 10/12-10/22
Passenger Type Adult
Fare
PHL to LGW - Fare Basis DA0RY $3,833.00
Plus Fuel Surcharge $60.00
Subtotal $3,893.00
LGW to PHL - Fare Basis DA0RY $3,833.00
Plus Fuel Surcharge $60.00
Subtotal $3,893.00
Adjusted Base Fare $7,786.00
Total Fare $7,786.00
Tax: US International Arrival $15.10
Tax: US International Departure $15.10
Tax: United Kingdom Air Passengers Duty $162.44
Fee: US Immigration $7.00
Fee: US Animal & Plant Health Inspection Svc. $5.00
Fee: US Customs User $5.50
Fee: US Passenger Facility Charge $4.50
September 11 Security Fee $2.50
Fee: United Kingdom Passenger Service Charge $16.24
Total Per Passenger $8,019.38

These are the US fares for unrestricted C. US does have Z fares for the prices you mentioned, but comparing that to a C fare is comparing apples to oranges.

Jim

Arrive Flight # and Details
8:45 PM 12 Oct 2007
Philadelphia, PA
9:10 AM 13 Oct 2007
London, United Kingdom (London)
Flight: 730
Class: Envoy Boeing 757-200
On-Time: N/A Meal: Dinner
Travel Time: 7 h 25 m
Return Arrive Flight # and Details
12:30 PM 22 Oct 2007
London, United Kingdom (London)
4:00 PM 22 Oct 2007
Philadelphia, PA
Flight: 731
Class: Envoy Boeing 757-200
On-Time: N/A Meal: Dinner
Travel Time: 8 h 30 m
Class Requested Not Available
Flight arrives next day
Summary (1 Passenger)
Base Fare $2,688.00
Taxes and Fees $233.38
Grand Total Hide Details $2,921.38
Passenger Type Adult
Fare
PHL to LGW - Fare Basis ZG50XY $1,284.00
Plus Fuel Surcharge $60.00
Subtotal $1,344.00
LGW to PHL - Fare Basis ZG50XY $1,284.00
Plus Fuel Surcharge $60.00
Subtotal $1,344.00
Adjusted Base Fare $2,688.00
Total Fare $2,688.00
Tax: US International Arrival $15.10
Tax: US International Departure $15.10
Tax: United Kingdom Air Passengers Duty $162.44
Fee: US Immigration $7.00
Fee: US Animal & Plant Health Inspection Svc. $5.00
Fee: US Customs User $5.50
Fee: US Passenger Facility Charge $4.50
September 11 Security Fee $2.50
Fee: United Kingdom Passenger Service Charge $16.24
Total Per Passenger $2,921.38
Number of Passengers 1
Total by Passenger Type $2,921.38

Grace to irresponsible actions of one of the moderators with the long name I do not want to be here.

Fare Basis ZG50XY

Like I said, comparing different fare buckets......US' restricted non-refundable fare to the other's unrestricted refundable fares. One could make the same comparison in any market to show that any carrier is cheaper than any other.

Jim

Fare Basis ZG50XY

Like I said, comparing different fare buckets......US' restricted non-refundable fare to the other's unrestricted refundable fares. One could make the same comparison in any market to show that any carrier is cheaper than any other.

Jim

Pont well taken Jim

US, of course offers these fares through their website
BA/LH/AF do not

Maybe someone has a trick, but even using 3rd party sites I cannot find a lower BA fare for the said itinerary

I read this thread initially just to see what's new with US but the fare comparisons drove me to chime in.

I fly to South Asia at least a couple of times a year and in really weird years, it's much higher (5 times last year). That's a fair bit of trans-Pacific and 90% of the time, I fly EVA on biz (C/J) or their Deluxe class. Flying from SEA, I'm still stuck with their old 744s sometimes regulars, sometimes combis. Still, I'm quite happy with their old metal because they have one of the cheapers biz class tickets I can find and service is actually really good (boy those taiwanese stewardesses are nice).

While I chuckled with some of you who posted here on the "old new seats" US has put in their 767 Envoy class, I actually thought the critcisms were a little harsh. Sure, they're quite a ways behind other major carriers but if they are taking baby steps forward, that's not a bad thing. However, my sentiments changed when I saw the fare comparisons.

If US is offering notably lower fares than other carriers, what's wrong with the older generation new seats? I think it's great to see improvement of any kind. I just wish they'd extend the upgrades to domestic metal, especially the old 733s and ERJs. A plane without duct tape holding panels together would be nice too.

However, if US is offering a far inferior product but charging very similar fares to other major carriers, slam on FTers. US deserve every ding from every passenger who had to fly them because of company rules, project requirements, location, etc...

I'm not real familiar with fares and availability so for me, the question is, can you get biz/Envoy class at low fares without jumping through hoops of fire? If Z fares are easily available on US but not on other carriers, I really don't care that it is Z fare (ok, I know others do). But if it's one of those things that you gotta stand on your nose, sing the sound of music in a Louis Armstrong voice, draw circles with your left big toe and squares with your right heel while Rigel and Betleguese are at their brightest before you can purchase the ticket, well then forget it. You'll never get me to sing the sound of music.

I assume that either LH is sold out of restricted business seats or doesn't offer them (selling the seats without discounting). AF has R/T PHL-CDG-PHL in mid-January for $2930 + taxes/etc. BA has R/T PHL-LHR-PHL in mid-January for $3770 + taxes/etc, which probably explains why every U.S. TA carrier wants access to Heathrow (higher fares).

Isn't Oktoberfest in October? Maybe that's why the other carriers were sold out of lower fares on the dates you checked.

Jim

I believe Sicma (http://www.sicma.zodiac.com/en/our-products-first-class/) is the manufacturer US chose for their Envoy seat order. I can't find the specs, but I've heard the leg rests on these seats are short. If you're over 5'8", your legs hang off the end when in the resting or flat positions. You can see it in the Flash (http://www.usairways.com/awa/content/traveltools/intheair/envoyfirst/envoy_seating.aspx) presentation. Click on "Relax" and check out the photo on the right.

It's also interesting to note that this seat will only be on the 767. The A330 seats aren't changing and the 757s that fly TA have been fitted with Envoy seats pulled off the A330 when they downsized the Envoy cabins.

It has obviously been taken down. You weren't missing much. It was a cheaper and played-down version of the interactive tour of J that most airlines have had on their websites for years.

How true! Did anyone notice that "Blanket and Eyeshades" are a feature of the new seat under "Sleep"? Truly pathetic.

As an aside, this is one of the worst "Flash" videos I've seen in a while. It runs very slowly and just has nothing in it that gets me excited about the product. Maybe that is why the pulled it. Really terrible marketing though.

Sean

I second that. The flash is so slow that I just quit halfway through the "tour".

Did anyone also notice under "PLAY" - "on demand entertainment including 10 movies, 25 hours of television programming, and 35 CDs..."

35 CDs?? talk about cheap...if that's seven categories of music, that's 5 CDs per category??

Recent AVOD experiences on other carriers:
TG - 100+ CDs
DL - 160 CDs
SQ - 700 CDs

Still, the seat looks better than what's out there today...I'll be in Envoy again this Sunday on the 762 to ZRH - sadly, it will still be the frayed, falling-apart, and filthy, malfunctioning PTV again....

IFE licensing costs money, which cuts into DP's profits.

I think I know why they pulled down the 767 Envoy seat presentation. Turns out the seat manufacturer messed up some measurements and US had to postpone the install until spring '08. They were going to start pulling the 767s out of service one by one in October after the Europe high season ends. Now it will be March before they can start the reconfigs. Hopefully they will be ready for next summer, though by then the planned enhancements will be even further behind the competition's product upgrades.