Haven't been to BKK since the dollar's recent dramatic drop against the Baht (thank you, Mr. Bush).

But, a lady I was talking to at a recent party told me she found BKK kinda pricy now, given that it is a Third World city. And, I have noticed that folks don't appear to be getting good rates for hotels on Priceline or otherwise recently.

How bad is it in BKK and Thailand now for Dollar spenders? Euro spenders are, no doubt, in fat city.

Consider this - In the US, 10 hours of (legit, though often inferior) Thai massage costs about $1000. The price is about the same for 10 hours of Thai massage in Thailand - but only if you include the roundtrip airfare!

I don't doubt that things used to be cheaper there - and that the weak US Dollar contributes to that, but things are still quite inexpensive. Even more of a bargain in neighboring countries.

Get outside of Bangkok, the further out the better the bargains that remain.

Recently at the Le Meridien Khao Lak (and this *is* still a resort, mind you - though off-season and prices are 25% lower as a result) an hour-long Thai massage was ~ US$38. Sure that's higher than it would have been a year ago. But still wonderful IMHO.

Go off-property and it's much MUCH less expensive still.

It's about 25% more expensive than it was a couple years ago. $1 now equals about 30 baht...in 2005 $1 was just over 40 baht.

But I wouldn't call Bangkok a "Third World city."

Since the capital-flow restrictions imposed by the Bank of Thailand in December 2006, the on-shore and off-shore exchange rates of the baht have diverged. Many websites currently quote the offshore (i.e., freely tradeable) rate, but those for commercial banks in Bangkok and, for the last couple of months, the table in the back of The Economist quote the onshore. A standard retail spread from the onshore rate is generally what you'll get in Thailand, as the name suggests. My credit cards and ATM card have processed charges at the (better for me) onshore rate. These days, the offshore rate is approaching 30:1, but the onshore is about 33.7:1 In December 2006, the rate broke the 35 mark. A year earlier, it was closer to 39, and a year before that over 40. In those days, things were very cheap. And back in '01, when the rate was over 45, things were ridiculously cheap.

Things aren't ridiculously cheap any more. But I'd say that Bangkok is still a bargain. For those converting from euros or pounds, Bangkok is surely a real bargain. 5000 baht for tailoring a three-piece suit isn't $110 anymore; it's $150 now. That's still a bargain.

Something to keep in mind: a big chunk of what a visitor will spend on a trip to Thailand goes to the hotel room rate. That is often quoted in US dollars but charged in baht at the exchange rate prevailing at the time of the stay. To that extent, costs are exchange-rate neutral, or close to it.

And I definitely wouldn't call Bangkok a "Third World City."

nor would i call bangkok a "third world city" either

nor would i call bangkok a "third world city" either

Stay at the Oriental or ShangriLai hotel(s) or any number of other places and tell me how that compares with London and Paris hotels....most of europe is backwards compared to what's available in modern asia.

Spend $200 for top flight 5+ star in Bkk and try to get something even closely comparable for 200 pounds (or euro)....nadda!

IMHO

Bangkok is certainly not a third world city. I suggest you stay at some real third world cities on the continent of America or Africa and you might get an idea of what the third world really is.

luxury hotels in bangkok are a bargain compared to Europe or major U.S. cities even with the current exchange rates. Dining out in Bangkok is also substantially less expensive than most cities.

I've always said that Thailand is a 1st world country in disguise.

To further the topic, I find that living in Thailand is expensive. Not as expensive as where I come from, but expensive nonetheless. I like it so much more than North America, so it's worth it.

BTW it's inflation as prices have risen... not the YankeeBuck.

Bangkok Apr 2006 Westin Grande Sukhumvit $115/night
Bangkok Mar 2007 Westin Grande Sukhumvit $199/night

Krabi Apr 2006 Scooter THB100
Krabi Mar 2007 Scooter THB250

From one year to the next I saw more and more Western tourist with no clue about the local costs. Rich westerners willing to pay more artificially jack up the price as much as international economics.

During my Mar trip with my buds... told them that the metered cab should be no more than $2.50 to anywhere in Bangkok. My idiots friends refused to demand that the meter is on and and were okay with THB500 cab fares ($15) saying that it is cheaper than Chicago :confused::rolleyes:!

So I'd blame the tourist as much if not more so...

... BKK kinda pricy now, given that it is a Third World city. ...

Um... Bangkok is NOT much of a "Third World City" than say, Okalahoma.

Thailand is not "Third World". It may be developing but fare from "Third World" status.

True, airfares have gone up in price. But the standard of living is generally still quite affordable than say, anywhere else in relatively similar standards.

In defense of biggestbopper, I think the "third world" comment may have been made by the "lady" he was speaking with, not by him as an editorial point of his own. Hard to tell, though, given how he wrote the sentence and the one that follows it. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt: it's the lady's comment that should be slammed.

But, a lady I was talking to at a recent party told me she found BKK kinda pricy now, given that it is a Third World city. And, I have noticed that folks don't appear to be getting good rates for hotels on Priceline or otherwise recently.

Then again, my mom made pretty much the same comment today. :o And she knows better--she's been there, and the comment was in connection with planning another visit that she's eager to plan. I didn't want to fight her on it.

"Third World" used to refer to the countries that weren't aligned with the U.S./"Western" powers/NATO ("First World" - relatively industrialised democracies) or the U.S.S.R./Warsaw Pact ("Second World"). It just happened that most "Third World" countries were underdeveloped and so this is the more popular (and incorrect) definition.

Since the capital-flow restrictions imposed by the Bank of Thailand in December 2006, the on-shore and off-shore exchange rates of the baht have diverged. Many websites currently quote the offshore (i.e., freely tradeable) rate, but those for commercial banks in Bangkok and, for the last couple of months, the table in the back of The Economist quote the onshore. A standard retail spread from the onshore rate is generally what you'll get in Thailand, as the name suggests. My credit cards and ATM card have processed charges at the (better for me) onshore rate. These days, the offshore rate is approaching 30:1, but the onshore is about 33.7:1 In December 2006, the rate broke the 35 mark. A year earlier, it was closer to 39, and a year before that over 40. In those days, things were very cheap. And back in '01, when the rate was over 45, things were ridiculously cheap.

Things aren't ridiculously cheap any more. But I'd say that Bangkok is still a bargain. For those converting from euros or pounds, Bangkok is surely a real bargain. 5000 baht for tailoring a three-piece suit isn't $110 anymore; it's $150 now. That's still a bargain.

Something to keep in mind: a big chunk of what a visitor will spend on a trip to Thailand goes to the hotel room rate. That is often quoted in US dollars but charged in baht at the exchange rate prevailing at the time of the stay. To that extent, costs are exchange-rate neutral, or close to it.

And I definitely wouldn't call Bangkok a "Third World City."


This is what Flyertalk is all about. Thanks for this great post. We are going back to Thailand in Feb and have been lamenting the exchange rate. I usually order Bahts in advance and pick them up at Amex travl services in Baltimore. We will exchange in Thailand this time.

In addition to the strengthening Baht against the USD, prices for airfare (ex-USA, in USD) and hotels in THB have increased generally over the last 12 months. Local inflation also contributes to somewhat higher prices but energy costs make up the bulk of the increases so maybe affect tourists less. So yes, for US travelers Thailand is much less of a bargain than it was 12 months ago. Whether it remains a bargain is very much a personal calculation and decision so I wouldn't want to tell someone it is still a bargain for them.

I have no idea how to define "third-world" but once you get outside the bright lights of Bangkok and the tourist/resort areas, Thailand is a very, very rural society and an agricultural-based economy. Even in Bangkok it is quite easy to find shanty-towns (2-story bamboo and corrugated aluminum, divided into 3mx3m rooms, or worse) and living conditions which I would associate with third-world countries. So in some ways it does strike me as a bit 'third-worldish'. (I spend ~ 3 months per year in a very rural area in the northeast of Thailand.) Access to reasonable universal public education and decent health-care certainly separate Thailand from third-world countries. Freedom from disease, increasing literacy rates, increased life-expectancy, increasing personal income (although more than off-set by debt) are other positives. I think that accidents are now the number one cause of infant and child mortality, rather than disease or malnutrition.

I think allowing the military to overthrow a democratically elected government and institute a military dictatorship which greatly limits personal rights and freedom has been a step back towards the third-world for Thailand, so maybe this has contributed the perception? I think many people associate military dictatorships with third-world countries.

I think many people associate military dictatorships with third-world countries.

Until relatively recently (1970s), some First World countries such as Spain and Portugal had military dictatorships. Anyway, it's funny how the U.S. has been responsible for many military dictatorships in Latin America.

I think allowing the military to overthrow a democratically elected government and institute a military dictatorship which greatly limits personal rights and freedom has been a step back towards the third-world for Thailand, so maybe this has contributed the perception? I think many people associate military dictatorships with third-world countries.


I have always suspected that the old elite and the monarchy would be close, but I recall i was flabergasted when the monarch put the seal of approval on the overthrow of a democratically elected government. What's the hurry, if the Taksin crowd were no good, wouldn't they have been toppled at the next election, maybe they knew something?

Anyway it's the same way as SINGAPORE has never bothered us, I KNOW our lot still believe Thailand to be a bargain. The girls have their hair, nails, eyelashes and feet done at a fraction of the cost back home, the men, especially our ugly ones are treated like gods and they love it and dispose of obscene amounts of hard earned cash. Our tourist go for the warmth of the country and of the Thai people, they stay in palatial hotels compared to how they would holiday at home & for what they would pay for a dog box in Europe. They eat copious amounts of seafood, a luxury they cannot afford in Australia, and it still amazes me that each and every one of them, still fall for the good old tried and tested scams that they have been warned about, but "he said it was closed and his brother......"

we are an old lot??!!

Thailand is not "Third World". It may be developing but fare from "Third World" status.

DECIDEDLY NOT!

There is quite a bit of Thailand that is first world - the luxury hotels, luxury restaurants, beaches and the Thai rich live a first world lifestyle at a fraction of the cost in the West.

But there are a very, very many Thais who live in "third world" conditions. Thailand has been spending more and more time hiding them.

We got back from BKK a couple of weeks ago. Exchanged money
here in Japan and locally in BKK, in the area around the Holiday
Inn. More or less the same rate 100 Bhat-$ 3.00, no significant
difference. I understand that since last weeks' problems in the
US the Bhat is getting even stronger. Mrs. Exleftseat found that
the price for a manicure of $ 20.00 was comparable to the U.S.,
though a lot cheaper than here in Japan. Eating out was cheaper,
but even at the Weekend market prices were not cheap at all. If
cheap is what one expects from a market in China for example.
And little bargaining room, we found. Biggest problem for us was
the taxi situation. After arrival we flagged a cab at the departure
level, fought with the driver to turn the meter on. Meter showed
230 Bhat and I figured plus toll the total should be 300 Bhat. Trouble
is we had no small change and gave him 500 Bhat. Of course he
did not return any change but left saying with surcharges that's
the price we have to pay. The driver back to the airport refused to
turn on the meter because ( quote ) it is too far and it's nighttime.
He wanted 700 bhat, we got away with 600 bhat. A ripoff, we think.
The tuku-tuku ( or whatever their name is ) was not much better.
For a ride to Chinatown he agreed to 50 Bhat only to follow us for
ten minutes around at the destination demanding 100 Bhat, because
we were two passengers. This time we had small change and 50 Bhat
was the end of that. From then on we walked or took the BTS or
the subway. Of course, Starbucks was in the 120 Bhat range, and to
our surprise no inexpensive tea was to be found in the local TOPS
supermarkets. All in all not bad, a very interesting experience for a
first time. Probably would not go back to BKK but interested in the
countryside. We think it is not cheap, even compared to expensive
Japanese cost of living, definitely not a bargain.

Sorry to hear of your difficulties with cab drivers in BKK, ExLeftSeat. Unethical and unreasonable cab drivers are the bane of tourists in Bangkok. You might have been able to get the doorman of your hotel to help out. Failing that, I would have demanded change or refused to pay entirely if the cabbie couldn't make change. But I'm a frequent visitor to Thailand and feel more at home/confident there than a first-timer.

The Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT) set up a special Tourist Police department with a dedicated phone number to "deal with" situations like these. The Tourist Police number used to be everywhere, but I haven't seen much of it lately, though perhaps haven't been looking for it. I put deal with in quotes because I would hope the police would interfere in these situations to get the tourists out of trouble but probably would do much to punish the scamsters or achieve real justice.

$20 USD for a manicure??!? This is much higher than the average price for a manicure in Thailand. As for food, my friend and I enjoyed many seafood dinners for under $25 USD for two. Thailand may not be as much of a bargain as it once was, but it still is relatively inexpensive compared to many if not most other tourist destinations. I am guessing, however, that the strength of the baht has many of the Chinese package tour groups looking for cheaper destinations.

Yes, I did not see a number for the "tourist police" myself.
And I thought, I was well prepared, with the help of a lot
of FT members prior to the visit. But it did not work out.
And I think the doorman was in it, as well. At least he
got me the taxi to the airport in the middle of the night
with the NW flight leaving at 6:00 a.m.
But I saw some sort of construction for a rail line or monorail
from the airport to ( I hope ) downtown. So maybe one day
these taxi problems will be a thing of the past.
As for the $ 20.00 for a manicure, we were surprised as well.
Mind you, this was all in the area of Shilon. Maybe not the
most reasonable area pricewise.

Next time pay the tolls. That will get you the change for a 500 baht note. Or go inside the hotel and get change. Or report the taxi driver to the police. You kept that slip of paper the dispatcher gave you, right? :)

Is the price for a bag of fruit still 10 baht?

BKK kinda pricy now, given that it is a Third World city.

I am interested to know which criteria you have used to classify BKK as a third world city.

Incidentally, this 'third world' city has a great Skytrain and train service. Compare that to the London underground and train services - perpetual severe delays and cancellations (reasons ranging from floods, signal problems, snow, lightning, power failure, high temperature, leaves on tracks, etc.)

Is the price for a bag of fruit still 10 baht?

Last night on the drive back from Khao Yai to Bangkok we bought 4 bags (24 large cobs) of fresh corn for 100 baht from a roadside vendor. :)

i just returned from bkk , khao lak, phuket etc.

and i feel that thailand is not a bargain anymore.

the rate baht=yen 100baht = 400yen has jumped 35%.
to the euro the baht has jumped 18% within the last 14 month.

its still cheap in thailand but for us travellers who go to luxury resorts and expensive hotels and expensive spas, this made me spent a couple of hundreds euros more than last time.

and hotels are charging not very fair exchange rates. when i booked my hotels in USD i expected to be billed at a normal thaibaht to usd rate. but the hotels rates are so worse that a 117USD booking after converting it back was 135USD etc. etc

this was for all hotels and it adds 10% on top of the 18% service charges etc.

:td::td::(

but still it was great to be back in bkk :)

Next time pay the tolls. That will get you the change for a 500 baht note. Or go inside the hotel and get change. Or report the taxi driver to the police. You kept that slip of paper the dispatcher gave you, right? :)
We thought we were sooooo prepared. Offered the driver the note
to pay the tolls, he declined and said we will pay later. No dispatcher
because we were told to do as the locals do and flag down a taxi at
the departure level. That would save us 50 bhat! Anyway, it's done
with and we are looking forward to the next trip.

We thought we were sooooo prepared. Offered the driver the note
to pay the tolls, he declined and said we will pay later. No dispatcher
because we were told to do as the locals do and flag down a taxi at
the departure level. That would save us 50 bhat! Anyway, it's done
with and we are looking forward to the next trip.

That's the spirit. It seems like you got a ride from a particulalry determined crooked cabdriver. Good to hear it's not deterring you from going back. ^

As for derpelikan's situation with converting dollars:baht:dollars (or yen or euros) for hotel rates, I've seen the hotels convert the room rate at a an exchange rate slightly worse than bank rate, but it's not usually too bad for me. It's not as bad a rate as you get, for example, exchanging cash for cash at the front desk. Including the 2.5% my Amex charges, I figure a total increase of 4-5% on what the rate would have been if simply charged through in dollars. If it's getting up near 10% for you, that's not good at all.

For the record, the 18% in add-ons to hotel room rates at most places comprises 10% service charge, 7% national VAT, and 1% local tax (if applicable). That, of course, hasn't changed in the six years I've been visiting Thailand.

That's the spirit. It seems like you got a ride from a particulalry determined crooked cabdriver. Good to hear it's not deterring you from going back. ^

As for derpelikan's situation with converting dollars:baht:dollars (or yen or euros) for hotel rates, I've seen the hotels convert the room rate at a an exchange rate slightly worse than bank rate, but it's not usually too bad for me. It's not as bad a rate as you get, for example, exchanging cash for cash at the front desk. Including the 2.5% my Amex charges, I figure a total increase of 4-5% on what the rate would have been if simply charged through in dollars. If it's getting up near 10% for you, that's not good at all.

For the record, the 18% in add-ons to hotel room rates at most places comprises 10% service charge, 7% national VAT, and 1% local tax (if applicable). That, of course, hasn't changed in the six years I've been visiting Thailand.

it was exactly 10% at the sheraton phuket, meridian khao lak, meridian phuket.

so 17% for tax its is ok, but on top of that 10% difference on exchange rate does not sound too fair to me.

dp

Read Tom Friedman's book to find out if third world countries even exist anymore ;)

PS - you'd be surprised at who is has up and who has moved down on the pecking order

It's sad to see all of these negative comments here. I'm writing this email from Chiang Mai. It's our first time to Thailand, and we're having a fantastic time. We're on a tour through Intrepid Travel. One of the things that has been great is that we have a local guide who is helping arrange all of our travelling and giving us tons of tips regarding where to do laundry, where the cheapest internet place is (the place I'm writing this from is 30B/hour), where the best places to eat are, the best markets, etc. We've seen a number of tourists having problems with Tuk Tuk drivers or taxi drivers, especially in Bangkok. We keep telling ourselves how nice it is to have a local guide. So all in all we're having a fantastic time and have gotten a bunch of great deals buying things. We spend about 4 hours last night at the Chiang Mai Sunday night market and bought almost all of our souvenirs for friends and family, costing us only about $25-$30! So the deals are out there, you just need to know where to find them.

Interesting commentary on BKK prices by the famous (or infamous, your choice) stickman.
"Western Prices, But Is It Western Quality?

Bangkok is getting more and more expensive. In baht terms as well as relative to Western currencies, a city once known as one of the most affordable capital cities in the world is getting pricey.

More and more Westerners resident in Thailand, as well as tourists passing through, comment on how the city is more expensive than they thought it would be, or more expensive than it used to be.

The big problem is that many come to Bangkok thinking it is cheap, but find it to be somewhat otherwise.

While the locals hate to admit it, one of the very attractions of Bangkok, and one of the main reasons Westerners move to, retire to, or possibly even holiday in Bangkok, is the perceived low cost of living. Note, I used the word perceived. I am of the opinion that while the city is cheap in many respects, it is not as affordable as we think it is, and certainly not what it used to be in terms of affordability."

See the rest of the rather long discussion at:

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/StickMarkII/WesternPricesButIsItWesternQuality.htm