Just came back from Europe and noticed that wines maybe have a 5-10 Euro mark-up (at best) on restaurant wine lists, compared to the U.S where it's typically 75%-100%!!! :mad:

No wonder people in the States aren't very savvy about good wines -- they spend $25/bottle and think they're buying something good...when it's bargain bin crap!

A few reasons, I think. (Licensed) restaurants in North America make most of their profits on booze. Selling food just pays the bill. Perhaps the other point is volume: Europeans will almost always have a bottle of wine (per person? :D) while many in N. America go dry.

p.s. I've seen GBP 3 (at the supermarket) wine sold for GBP 12 in restaurants so it isn't only the U.S.

Try Canada!after the markup and the outrageous tax(also marked up by the resto)a simple bottle ends up costing $40 cad!
I cringe when a date wants a bottle of wine in Montreal,,,,thank goodness for the good byob places.

Just came back from Europe and noticed that wines maybe have a 5-10 Euro mark-up (at best) on restaurant wine lists, compared to the U.S where it's typically 75%-100%!!! :mad:

No wonder people in the States aren't very savvy about good wines -- they spend $25/bottle and think they're buying something good...when it's bargain bin crap!

Many places are becoming more fair in their pricing-especially those that want folks to enjoy good wine.

Unless it is something special that the resto has cellered for a while then anything at more than 50% +retail is a ripoff.

I cringe when a date wants a bottle of wine in Montreal,,,,thank goodness for the good byob places.

Why date out of country when you have California girls at home?!?! :D

p.s. I've seen GBP 3 (at the supermarket) wine sold for GBP 12 in restaurants so it isn't only the U.S.

True, but on average...I was just amazed to have a bottle of wine at a restaurant, only to go to the nearest bottle shop the next day and find out I paid a small premium in the resto.

The traditional restaurant mark-up in US used to be 3x retail store price. Therefore, a bottle costing $8 in a retail store would be $24 in the restaurant. The profit would be even higher if sold by the glass.

I think the US and the GB standard is to triple the wholesale cost(they sometimes get a better deal than wholesale). this makes the shelf price(50% add on) appear to be half the restaurant price.

france and italy seem to add the same 50% as the local stores.

In DC, Dino and Finn&Porter are under shelf price on a lot of the wines.

I am not so certain that more wine is consumed in european restaurants than in upscale urban usa resturants.

As examples of truly outrageous mark up on wine, may I give the following examples from Toronto. Last year at the Intercontintental Toronto Centre's restaurant, Azure, the Ravenswood Vintners Blend was featured at $70.00 Canadian a bottle plus 18% tax. The L.C.B.O. price for the same product was $19.95 and the L.C.B.O. mark up on wines is 64%! In California, one can buy the latest vintage of Ravenswood Vinters Blend currently for $7.86 U.S. plus tax. At Canoe restaurant on the 54th floor of the T.D. Tower, Chateau Clerc Milon 1989 is $900 plus tax. I bought a case of it in 1992 at $30 per bottle. Clerc Milon has never been a wine in that price range ever. For $100 more, one can get a first growth with Haut-Brion at Canoe.

The traditional restaurant mark-up in US used to be 3x retail store price.

When was this? I usually patronize restaurants in the US where the
markup is 2 to 2.5x retail. When I was growing up it was 2x wholesale.

I think that one of the reasons for the high markups is the liability
issue; of course, if the structure were rational, the per-drink markup
would be constant.

When was this? I usually patronize restaurants in the US where the
markup is 2 to 2.5x retail. When I was growing up it was 2x wholesale.

I think that one of the reasons for the high markups is the liability
issue; of course, if the structure were rational, the per-drink markup
would be constant.

Could markup multiples be regional?

Try Canada!after the markup and the outrageous tax(also marked up by the resto)a simple bottle ends up costing $40 cad!
I cringe when a date wants a bottle of wine in Montreal,,,,thank goodness for the good byob places.

To be fair, restaurants in certain provinces only get a minor break off retail prices (I think it's 8%) where I am (B.C.).

When I was growing up it was 2x wholesale.


Paying attention to wine prices while growing up?? What...did your Mom put a split in your lunch box or something?? :D I got a lousy Capri-Sun... :(

The L.C.B.O. price for the same product was $19.95 and the L.C.B.O. mark up on wines is 64%!

LCBO = ???

I had some customers from Canada the other day who say that my store sells Folie a Deux Menage a Trois for $6.99, when they were paying over 30$ Canadian for the exact same thing. I felt sorry for them :(

I felt sorry for them :(

Because their wine is so expensive? Or that they're Canadian? (Sorry, couldn't resist...:D)

Because their wine is so expensive? Or that they're Canadian? (Sorry, couldn't resist...:D)

hahahahahahaha I knew that was coming.

Well this restaurantaur has a different take on this. The mark up of wine is no different then anything else. Why would you pay $35 dollars for the steak when you dine out when you can buy it at the butcher for $10?
Here is a littte of why that bottle gets marked up. First there are the taxes paid to the state on the sales price 14% in Texas which is not paid by the customer, second you have your license cost, glassware and refridgeration and wine storage coolers to store the product.
Everything is marked up 3 times -food and beverage, well alcohol maybe more.

I think if you want to drink good wine and pay retail for it you should just stay home and cook your own dinner and uncork your own wine and you will save alot of money.

The great restaurants in europe cellar their own wine -- a considerable investment, and something that is rarely done in the US (I doubt there are a dozen restaurants in the US with wine that they have cellared for over a decade). At those european restaurants you can often find wine below the US retail cost, particularly for the better vintages. And often the wine is properly aged, without temperature variation or other problems.

So there are some bargains to be found, albeit mostly at the high end, and mostly outside of the US.

I think if you want to drink good wine and pay retail for it you should just stay home and cook your own dinner and uncork your own wine and you will save alot of money.

Or go to dinner in NY or CA where BYO is allowed. :)

Well this restaurantaur has a different take on this. The mark up of wine is no different then anything else. Why would you pay $35 dollars for the steak when you dine out when you can buy it at the butcher for $10?
Here is a littte of why that bottle gets marked up. First there are the taxes paid to the state on the sales price 14% in Texas which is not paid by the customer, second you have your license cost, glassware and refridgeration and wine storage coolers to store the product.
Everything is marked up 3 times -food and beverage, well alcohol maybe more.

I think if you want to drink good wine and pay retail for it you should just stay home and cook your own dinner and uncork your own wine and you will save alot of money.

As someone who's worked at a few restaurants, I have to disagree with your attempt at justifying marking up bottles of wine 3-4x their wholesale price. Add to that, I know any smart restaurant owner would get by-the-glass pricing on everything possible, thereby lowering the per bottle cost even more. I think keystoning a bottle is fine, because of some of the reasons you mentioned, but selling a 10 dollar bottle of wine (wholesale cost) for 30-40$ is cheating the consumer. A smart consumer will buy that bottle for 10$, then pay the 15$ corkage, rather than accepting your attempts at what frankly is a ripoff.

LCBO = ???

Liquor Control Board of Ontario

Liquor Control Board of Ontario

AKA, government monopoly on the sale of alcohol.

I still cringe when I think of what I pay when I visit my family here in Saskatchewan - a 24-case of cans of regular domestic beer is approximately CA$37. That's approximately US$33. A 24-case of cans of regular domestic beer almost anywhere in the US? US$15-$17. It seems as though all alcohol in Canada (or at least SK) is TWICE what it would cost in the US - and that's just at the government run stores which close, at the latest, at 9 PM. Buy it at "off-sale" (privately run open until no later than 3 am) and you're paying at LEAST C$10 more for that case.

...A 24-case of cans of regular domestic beer almost anywhere in the US? US$15-$17. ....The beer I buy is between USD 1-1.50 per bottle (and this is for nothing exotic, just decent quality like Widmer or Sam Adams). That makes it USD 24-30 for 24; or not much different from the SK price. The quality of most Canadian beer is quite high; the difference is that they don't make and sell plonk (due to the tax structure, but it also means the quality is improved).

So the "free market" for alcohol in most US states has resulted in similar prices for high-end product (despite much lower government taxes, so the price goes into private profit instead) and a market for lower-priced higher volume product but with substantial product differentiation in the form of worse flavour and quality.

A lot like the wine market, fwiw.

Everybody always fusses about the wine, but the markup on wine is much less than beer or hard liquor. The most notable markup is on well vodka and gin, which frequently costs $6 for a bar liter while drinks approach $4. You will pour 15-20 drinks out of a bar liter. Also, there's around 140 pints in a keg, while a keg of Budweiser will sell for less than $60. Go ahead and do the math on these.

I am not in the restaurant business, but, I do not see many wealthy restaunteers. a few do well, but most work horrendus long hours for a midest income.

second: looks to me like a great opportunity for all you complainers to get really really rich.

third: why don't people complain about your $150-250 consulting fee?

I have owned my own buisness for the past 40 years or so. one charges what the traffic will bear. I do donate a lot to charity, as I have been relativly successful, as long as i do not talk to customers.

you want to be a redeemer, get into religion, or charity work.

The beer I buy is between USD 1-1.50 per bottle (and this is for nothing exotic, just decent quality like Widmer or Sam Adams). That makes it USD 24-30 for 24; or not much different from the SK price. The quality of most Canadian beer is quite high; the difference is that they don't make and sell plonk (due to the tax structure, but it also means the quality is improved).

So the "free market" for alcohol in most US states has resulted in similar prices for high-end product (despite much lower government taxes, so the price goes into private profit instead) and a market for lower-priced higher volume product but with substantial product differentiation in the form of worse flavour and quality.

A lot like the wine market, fwiw.

My pricing example is NOT for something like Widmer or Sam Adams. It is for your standard domestic crap like Budweiser or MGD (the equivalents in Saskatchewan being Canadian, Blue, and Kokanee for example...with Budweiser and MGD also being available, etc). You also pay more for quality in Saskatchewan if you want to drink something like Sleeman's. Granted, the price gap is less extreme than the United States...but I'd rather be able to get a well bottle of vodka for US$6.99 than get the cheapest bottle in SK for C$20+. :)

Could markup multiples be regional?

In the US, mostly no. I patronize mostly but not exclusively
restaurants that purport to offer value for the dollar, in the
midrange. At the upper end, of course, "what the market
will bear" has a lot to do with the eventual bill, and I've had to
pay 4-5x retail for some wines (though there are occasional
relative bargains even there).

My recent experiences with restaurant wine lists encompass
WA, CA, IL, MA, ME, MD, VA, NV, and FL, and only in the
most touristy parts of those last two has the 2-2.5x rule
been grossly off.

Why date out of country when you have California girls at home?!?! :D

You have been to Montreal right? ;)

You have been to Montreal right? ;)

Yep, hence my question... :D

Well this restaurantaur has a different take on this. The mark up of wine is no different then anything else. Why would you pay $35 dollars for the steak when you dine out when you can buy it at the butcher for $10?
Here is a littte of why that bottle gets marked up. First there are the taxes paid to the state on the sales price 14% in Texas which is not paid by the customer, second you have your license cost, glassware and refridgeration and wine storage coolers to store the product.
Everything is marked up 3 times -food and beverage, well alcohol maybe more.

I think if you want to drink good wine and pay retail for it you should just stay home and cook your own dinner and uncork your own wine and you will save alot of money.

Being in the restaurant industry, I can totally understand this line of reasoning. If you are aiming for a food cost of say 35%, that implies a general mark up of 2x. So say that steak cost $10 in raw materials you end up selling it for $30 to hit you aprox target. The standard thinking in the restaurant business is that the same mark-up should apply for sirits and wines. If you mark up less, your overall food cost would start creeping up.