I'm currently back in the US, but I was reading a thread today on a local Argentine BB where several posters have reported problems with the Banelco ATM network in Argentina that started last weekend. The Banelco network is affiliated with the VISA/Plus system, and probably the most widespread.

One of the posters talked to a Banelco representative today and was told that all VISA/Plus Network cards in the Banelco network will now only allow a maximum withdrawal of AR$100 (~US$32) per operation and a maximum of 3 operations per day. This is apparently being done for "our" protection, in case of card theft. [I can't see how allowing 3 transactions/day will help in this regard ...]

Apparently the MasterCard/Cirrus network is still able to dispense larger sums (but I don't have any details).

Up until a couple of years ago, the Banelco network would dispense AR$800/day, but then that was lowered to AR$500/day (even if your card has a higher US$ limit than this).

Any savings by using a Banelco ATM will be eaten up by the foreign ATM transaction fees imposed by US banks (usually US$3-5/transaction, unless you're lucky enough to have a fee-free card).

I'll keep an eye on the problem and report back if there are updates or a resolution.

The next best alternative in the meantime (if you don't have a MasterCard-branded ATM card), is to use one of the major banks. Foreign exchanges transactions are possible in the later morning (I think it's after 11:00 am), and you will need to present your passport. Usually there's not any problem with exchanging amounts up to US$1000 - the only problem I've encountered was at the PNB Paribas branch close to Gaucho100K's wine store, which only allowed me to exchange US$300, if I remember correctly (and I only went inside the bank since the ATM network was down at that time). The last couple of times I've used a bank, I've been asked to show them the immigration entry stamp in my passport.

So if you're flying into EZE, the best place to get pesos is at the Banco de la Nácion, which is directly on the right just before you exit customs. Remember to ask for some small bills and peso coins, since taxi/remise drivers don't carry much change.

Hope this helps.

John

John, great post. Ive know of the limitations on the Banelco network, but my experience with the Cirrus network and specifically with the BNP Paribas bank is that it will give you up to AR$3000, or USD 1000 per day. I havent used my US based ATM in the last 60 days or so, and perhaps things have changed recently, but as I say... Ive been able to get those amounts from my US checking accounts with no issues. FWIW, my US bank is Bank of America, and my card has all possible logos on the back so I guess it works with both Cirrus and Visa Plus and a host of other systems.

I understand that there are a couple of "new" internet banks that offer special ATMs with custom-tailored daily limits. It seems that these banks are able to bypass local regulations on daily limits... at least this is what Ive heard from folks posting on Trip Advisor. I will dig up that information and re-post it here once I find it.

Cheers
Alex (Gaucho100K)

Alex -

I've only been able to use my Wells Fargo and Schwab ATM cards on the VISA/Plus (Banelco) network. The cards have the VISA-affiliated logos on them (not Cirrus). At least with my Schwab card, I get all ATM fees reimbursed, so I've been able to get the interbank exchange rate.

John

.....Ive know of the limitations on the Banelco network, but my experience with the Cirrus network and specifically with the BNP Paribas bank is that it will give you up to AR$3000, or USD 1000 per day...

Gaucho100K:

$1,000 on an ATM seems very high. I never got more than $400 to $500 in a foreign country, mostly less than this. BTW, I talked with my banker not to put a limit on my account for ATM withdrawals. I was also told, the bank who runs the ATM also sets a limit for withdrawals!
To be safe, I always carry 3 ATM cards from 3 different banks.
In Buenos Aires I had only trouble with a Citi Card at Citi Bank, went next door to the ATM from Banco Gallicia and got the ARS.

Banelco have admitted they made a mistake in programming their ATM network, as reported in the BA Herald:

... Sources at Banelco, Argentina’s electronic funds transfer company, told the Herald that the glitch arose because a ruling by Plus had been misinterpreted by local officials and that this had resulted in the capped withdrawals yesterday.
"The glitch is being worked on and the system should allow tourists to make up to three withdrawals a day of up to 300 pesos each," the source said...

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/business/note.jsp?idContent=360129&hideIntro=true

Local expats have reported that larger transaction amounts are still possible through the LINK network (at least AR$1000).

See http://www.redlink.com.ar/Cajeros/index.htm for a search engine for ATM locations.

These are some of the banks that have ATM machines that can connect to the LINK network:

BANCA NAZIONALE DEL LAVORO S.A.
BANCO DE LA CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES
BANCO DE LA PROVINCIA DE BUENOS AIRES
BNP PARIBAS

John

Gaucho100K:

$1,000 on an ATM seems very high. I never got more than $400 to $500 in a foreign country, mostly less than this. BTW, I talked with my banker not to put a limit on my account for ATM withdrawals. I was also told, the bank who runs the ATM also sets a limit for withdrawals!
To be safe, I always carry 3 ATM cards from 3 different banks.
In Buenos Aires I had only trouble with a Citi Card at Citi Bank, went next door to the ATM from Banco Gallicia and got the ARS.

Hi USAFAN-- as I post above, I have been able to draw AR$3000 using a BNP Paribas Link ATM machine, and I bank with Bank of America. I dont know if the limits have since been changed, but next time I use the card I will report back.

I thought I'd update the situation concerning VISA/Plus ATM transactions in Argentina.

This last week I've only been able to withdraw ARS$300/transaction (but since I've not needed much cash, I've not tested if I can do three transactions/day). Unfortunately I don't have a LINK-associated debit card, so I can't report on any limitations on that network.

I'm still waiting for the transactions to post electronically - I made mine on a Schwab card associated with my Schwab One account. As I mentioned previously I get all ATM fees waived on this card. and the rate of exchange is very close (or better) to the OANDA FX interbank rate.

http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic

John

Just bumping this thread as a reminder.

Some folks have also reported ARS$300/transaction limitations on the LINK network. That limitation is still in place on the Banelco/VISA Plus network.

John

I was testing the number of allowed transactions on the VISA Plus/Banelco Network today in BsAs, and can confirm that only 3 transactions/day are permitted (even if they are for small amounts of cash).

Two of the transactions were made from the same machine about 15 minutes apart. So if you want more than 300 pesos using a VISA-branded card, you will need to make multiple transactions. Depending on your bank's fees, currency exchange at a local bank may be cheaper. Also remember that ATM machines in popular places, especially on the weekend, may run out of cash.

John

Hi USAFAN-- as I post above, I have been able to draw AR$3000 using a BNP Paribas Link ATM machine, and I bank with Bank of America. I dont know if the limits have since been changed, but next time I use the card I will report back.
Where are the BNP Paribas machines located? Do they still waive the fee for BofA customers?

Where are the BNP Paribas machines located? Do they still waive the fee for BofA customers?

Puerto Madero has one, right behind the Hilton Hotel. Just go in the alley between Asia da Cuba and the Hilton Hotel and you'll see it. (This was my preferred place to get cash when the correlito hit and the rest of the machines in the city seemed to be out of cash. ;) )

There are others within a short cab ride distance away too:

http://www.bnpparibas.com.ar/es/home/agences.asp#

Where are the BNP Paribas machines located? Do they still waive the fee for BofA customers?

Kathy,,, don't know where you are in BsAs. but I use one on Callao y Guido never had problem withdrawing 2-3000 ar.

Kathy, there is also a BNP Paribas branch a block away from Alex's wine store:

Fray Justo Santa Maria de Oro 2923

John

Kathy, there is also a BNP Paribas branch a block away from Alex's wine store:

Fray Justo Santa Maria de Oro 2923

John

Indeed.... the only catch for this ATM is that your best bet is to use it at 4pm, after the branch fills it up as its a very popular cash-mashine and by the end of the day its usually empty.

http://www.bnpparibas.com.ar/es/home/agences.asp#
Thanks to all for the responses, and thanks for the link above.

The nearest BNP to where I'll be staying is near Plaza San Martin on av. Santa Fe.

As for the branch near Alex's wine store, I believe I tried that one a year or two ago, without success. :( Perhaps the explanation is that it was empty, as suggested by Alex? :confused:

I usually withdraw around ARP 3.000 with my German Maestro EC Card. I often have problems getting in in the microcentro, but somewhere closer to where I stay (Barrio Norte, Santa Fe around 2800-3200) I never encountered a problem with any of the banks (usually Patagonia, Rio, HSBC).

Banelco $300 ARP limit still applies per transaction. However, I was able to make five transactions at the ATM when I needed to get out $900 ARP (about $300 USD). The only problem is that I was charged the $5 USD transcation fee for each of those! I'm going to try to find a BNP Paribas to get my next months rent out.

ATM Problems in Argentina
===================

What about Mendoza? Are there any ATMs from foreign banks where I get >=900 ARS with a max $5 fee?

Thanks.

The only problem is that I was charged the $5 USD transcation fee for each of those! I'm going to try to find a BNP Paribas to get my next months rent out.

If you use BOA call them up and a CRS should take some if not all of the service fees off for you

ATM Problems in Argentina
===================

What about Mendoza? Are there any ATMs from foreign banks where I get >=900 ARS with a max $5 fee?

Thanks.

Most of the foreign banks in Argentina are not well represented in Mendoza. One notable exception if HSBC, as they recently bought out the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro and gained a very impressive branch network in all cities... but, as far as I know, CitiBank is not in Mendoza although Im not 100% certain. I will dig for more info. and report back.

...but, as far as I know, CitiBank is not in Mendoza although Im not 100% certain...
Citibank is indeed in Mendoza. I use them all the time on my trips there. It's on the Sarmiento peatonal - Av. Sarmiento 20.

A list (https://www.latam.citibank.com/argentina/laar/spanish/branch/consumer/cnotros.htm) of Citibank locations in the interior.

Gaucho100K & Cada 90 Diaz:

Thanks!

I checked both on the Internet. Looks like HSBC has a Banelco ATM. I'll try Citi. I arrive in the evening from SCL at the airport ... I may get some ARS there too.

Cada 90 dias, thanks for correcting my mistake on Citibank´s availability. Welcome to FT, look forward to your posts.

Are you based in Santiago de Chile...?

Gaucho100K & Cada 90 Diaz:

Thanks!

I checked both on the Internet. Looks like HSBC has a Banelco ATM. I'll try Citi. I arrive in the evening from SCL at the airport ... I may get some ARS there too.

I got 1,000 ARS at the Banco de Nation ATM at the airport in Mendoza.
Thanks for all other help. And special thanks to Gaucho100K for starting and supporting those Argentina threads.^

It has been reported that Mastercard-branded ATM cards (at least those issued in the US) are now subject to the same withdrawl restrictions that were placed on VISA-branded cards a year ago. Apparently this took place on April 3. There has been a report that Citi cards (at a Citi ATM) are not subject to the same restrictions.

It's unclear, as yet, if there is a restriction on the number of transactions that can be done on one day (as their seems to be with VISA-branded cards, at least in my experience). It is possible to do multiple consecutive withdrawls from the same ATM machine, but be aware that that may trigger a security lock from the issuing bank in the US. I had that happen with my Schwab/VISA ATM card, but that was quickly resolved when I called Schwab customer service in the US.

So folks, unless you have a bank with low per-transaction charges, or that reimburses you for Argentine bank charges, your best bet is to exchange dollars at a commercial bank.

John

John is, as always, right on. Doing multiple transactions at the same ATM one right after the other can be scary, especially since most ATMs in EZE are still the older machine version where the ATM actually swallows your card... if the machine or the protocol that the issuing bank thinks there may be a security issue, it may choose to swallow your card. With all the hassles this involves, I think its best to come down with some USD or Euro cash.

I have heard that the best ATM's to use as those with a sign saying "LINK" in a green circle. At least in January 2008, I had no problems with those, getting as much as 1150 pesos. (Deliberably chose an odd amount to get some small bills, too.) For me, I never can exceed the equivalent of $400 USD per day because that is what my American bank limits me to.

For example, there is a Banco de Nacion "LINK" ATM right inside El Calafate's airport. That worked fine there and elsewhere.

I have heard that the best ATM's to use as those with a sign saying "LINK" in a green circle. At least in January 2008, I had no problems with those, getting as much as 1150 pesos. (Deliberably chose an odd amount to get some small bills, too.) For me, I never can exceed the equivalent of $400 USD per day because that is what my American bank limits me to.

For example, there is a Banco de Nacion "LINK" ATM right inside El Calafate's airport. That worked fine there and elsewhere.Bowgie - that was true until last week. Now everyone with a VISA- or Mastercard-branded card has been affected. Germans also have reported to same problems with their cards. These issues arise from restrictions imposed by Argentine banks and their network affiliates.

John

It's probably a good idea to call your issuing bank before you come to Argentina to let them know of your travel plans. However, be aware that sometimes (at least with credit cards), that security locks on cards are often computer-generated without human involvement and are based on unusual activity.

My bank (Schwab) declined my withdrawl at a Banelco ATM in Argentina but thankfully returned my card. I was making multiple AR$60 withdrawls to obtain small bills. I was able to have Schwab customer service annotate my account so that I've not had a problem since.

John

The US Embassy in Buenos Aires is apparently aware of the situation regarding credit card withdrawls on foreign bank cards via all networks, and is investigating the matter.

They've promised to look into and report on the matter latter this month in the American Citizen Services newsletter (available on their web site).

Presumably embassy employees have also been affected by this situation, not to mention getting angry calls from US citizens resident or visiting Argentina.

John

I've had no problem getting 1200+ pesos out of Citibank machines, with a Paypal MC. I last withdrew from the one on Florida (between Viamonte & Cordoba, I think), last week.

Don't wait until late in the day to take money out. I tried another ATM at Banco Patagonia, across from where I had lunch, and it just rejected it when I wanted 1200 pesos.

So, at about 4:30pm, I hit the same Citibank on Florida, and each ATM gave me an error. I wasn't sure if the ATM system was down, but tried the last ATM, just in case, and got out my 1240 pesos. I guess the other two machines were out of money already! I've heard of problems on weekends, but not weekdays.

I can regularly get up to $2000 from the Citibank ATMs, but thats by using my Citibank Argentina issued card.

Any news on this matter?

I have been in La Cumbre, Córdoba some 3 weeks ago, where I live half of the time besides Germany and could only withdrwaw 320,- pesos a time, but many times/day with my German Maestro card.
Either from a Banco Nación (Link) or a Banco Provincia de Córdoba (Banelco).

I had talked to people from Banelco (they had no clue..) and Link in BA, latter told me that this limit was imposed in Argentina by Cirrus as of April 1st.
First 300,- pesos, than risen to 320,-.
It is a mess as my wife and kids living there normally withdraws 2 times 2.500,- pesos/month (which is our daily limit on our Germany bank of 500,- EUR at a cost of 5,- EUR/withdrawal) and now has to withdraw about 16 times/month, costing 16x5,- EUR!

As of what I was told by MasterCard in the US and Germany, Maestro does not belong to them any longer (?).

My Bank in Germany had no clue about this, is checking since about 3 weeks, but showed signs of being willing to reduce the fees.

1MIO....:

I have had some problems with Citibank in Recoleta....even with a US Citi Bank ATM card. Never with Banco Nation.

You may open an account in Argentina and wire transfer the funds.
My German bank charges

Max: E 12.50 + E 5.00 Swift + E 2.50 Conv. = E 20.00 for wires up to 12,500 E.

1MioFlight-- sorry to hear about your troubles... if your family lives in Cordoba and you also spend a reasonable time there, I think that the above advice to perhaps open an account at some local bank may be the way to go... alas, please note that there is paperwork involved and also every time you wire funds down you will also have to fill out papers and then have to convert your Euros to Pesos... even if you want to withdraw Dollars from your local account. I dont know how many times a year you yourself come down, but maybe its best for you to be a cash mule of sorts and come down with the max. USD10,000 allowable by law and just open a safety deposit box.

Also, please remember that operating in Euros in Argentina is more expensive than other foreign currencies, as all FX transactions are cross-referenced to the dolar.... so in the end, if you have an inexpensive way to source USD cash in Europe then this would be the best solution to feed your Cordoba safety-deposit box.... but then, you run dollar risk and its possible continued weakness against the Euro....... ahhhh so many things to consider... :D

Hope this helps somewhat.

[B]....Also, please remember that operating in Euros in Argentina is more expensive than other foreign currencies, as all FX transactions are cross-referenced to the dolar.... so in the end, if you have an inexpensive way to source USD cash in Europe then this would be the best solution to feed your Cordoba safety-deposit box.... but then, you run dollar risk and its possible continued weakness against the Euro....... ahhhh so many things to consider... :D

Hope this helps somewhat.

Gaucho100K:

I just checked my bank in Germany. I could wire (ON-LINE?) ARS (or US-$) from my German Euro account to a bank in Argentina. What is the problem? Just asking ... I still remember that you have been in the financial business in your "first life".
BTW, instead of bringing notes/cash, he could ask the German bank for an "Order Scheck" .... a secure bank check, which can be deposited in a local bank account.

USAFAN, Gaucho100K, tks for the hints, etc.

Checks and transfers are no solution as we (mainly my wife) use the card there like here in Germany, only that now it costs half a fortune.

La Cumbre in Córdoba is not BA in terms of being able to cash in checks, etc.

I've lived almost all my life in BA and Córdoba...It'll be a long time until Argentina sees another bank account from me again after 2001/2002..., if at all.

I was just wondering why the limit on foreign (just?) ATM cards was imposed in Argentina as all threads I've seen on the I-net these weeks regarding this do not conclude with a reasonable explanation, besides devaluation talks and speculations out there...

Nevertheless, I've ordered and already received a Mastercard credit card on our german bank account for my wife. That will solve 50% of the problem for her down there.

I was just wondering why the limit on foreign (just?) ATM cards was imposed in Argentina as all threads I've seen on the I-net these weeks regarding this do not conclude with a reasonable explanation, besides devaluation talks and speculations out there...

From everything I understand, the people running the ATM networks want more money, and weren't happy with the fee they got. So they make you take out many transactions, so they get more money.

I was fairly satisfied that I could get out $400 from Citibank. (That was my daily limit, so I never tried for more than that)

Gaucho100K:

I just checked my bank in Germany. I could wire (ON-LINE?) ARS (or US-$) from my German Euro account to a bank in Argentina. What is the problem? Just asking ... I still remember that you have been in the financial business in your "first life".
BTW, instead of bringing notes/cash, he could ask the German bank for an "Order Scheck" .... a secure bank check, which can be deposited in a local bank account.

Hello USAFAN-- Im not saying that wiring funds will be a problem.... and its certainly possible to wire funds down to Argentina, be it online as you correctly state, or through a normal teller transaction. The issue is that the "problems" will start when you approach a local bank and want to clear those funds and withdraw them. You will have to be prepared to fill out paperwork, explain in detail where the money comes from... its not all automatic and straight-forward as it may be to issue an outgoing wire from your bank. The reasons for this are various... of course, your local bank knows who you are (after all, you have an account with them)... but here one needs to understand that the bank receiving the funds may not know you well, may need to verify various things.... after all, there are nowadays more and more controlls & international regulations on $$$ laundering & other related issues, etc. etc.

Apart from the traditional controls, in Argentina there are specific regulations that also add red tape (and costs) to these types of transactions..... again, I dont know your specific situation and if you already are a legal resident of Argentina, and have a local account established, its of course easier for you to do this.... but still, depending on which bank you have an account with, you will be asked to fill out several forms and you will still be forced to convert your foreign currency to Pesos, regardless of what currency you wish to withdraw the funds in.

As for the special confirmed cheque that you mention... to my knowledge such a cheque is not depositable in a local bank account... I could be wrong, but Im 99% sure. Not saying you cant cash such a cheque down here, but to do that you would have to go to an Exchange Bureau or Brokerage Firm that has an account in Europe and the fees involved would be important (at least 3%), and in some cases depending on what bank the draft/cheque is issued against you may have to await collection before they pay you.

One last thing... you mention in your post that you can wire AR$ (or US$) from your Euro bank account... please note that wiring AR$ from Germany is not feasible. The Peso is not an internationally convertible currency, so your German bank cannot transact in Pesos... what they will do is send a "Gegenwert" or equivalent amount in either Euros or Dollars that would match some amount you may be able to fill out in Pesos. In any case, its an issue of games with the unit of measure... :D

Cheers,
Alex

1MioFlight-- while you are right about La Cumbre not being Buenos Aires, there are surely "Casas de Cambio" or "Financieras" that will be able to help you with cashing a cheque... it will be an issue of knowing the right people and finding someone thats trustworthy. Else, you may have to go to Cordoba Capital.... Im afraid my financial city contacts are all in Buenos Aires, so I cant be of much further assistance.

Hello Gaucho100K:

Very interesting ... first let me say, I have never done a wire transfer to Argentina. I just looked at my account, if I could transfer funds .. and yes, I can .. and I can even select ARS!?!
Actually, I wasn't aware, that it was so painful to wire funds to Argentina. I have sold boxes (computers that is) to Deutsch Sued-Amerikanische Bank, headquartered in Hamburg, now part of Allianz/Dresdner Bank AG .. and I had the impression that they could handle such businesses.

OT: What do you think about this

http://www.vinesofmendoza.com/private_vineyard/private_vineyard_estates.html

not calculating any possible problems with ARS? Is this real? Or just a "smart business idea" to catch other peoples money.

I experienced the same thing (maximum of 300 peso withdrawals on my ATM card) last August in Mendoza and Las Lenas. The year before I could take out around 1000 pesos from the same ATMs, so something did change in the interim.

This year I will bring some cash down. Its pretty easy to change, a lot of Argentineans like to keep a few US$ on hand.

To my knowledge, Alex is 100% correct with his characterization of foreign exchange transactions in Argentina.

I'm also certain that a foreign cheque (in US$ or Euros) would not be depositable in any retail bank account in Argentina. After all, that would circumvent the Central Bank's dollar/peso exchange racket. Another complicating factor regarding wire transfers is that in addition to the paperwork involved in accessing the funds, there may be restrictions on how much you can withdraw in any time period.

It's been over a year since I started this thread, and my advice remains the same. If you want to avoid exchange conversion fees you have two choices:

Bring cash (preferably US$) into Argentina, and exchange into pesos as necessary, or
Find a bank/brokerage that reimburses for foreign ATM fees.

I would never rely on any information that you might receive from front line employees in Argentine retail banks - they seem woefully unaware of Argentine Central Bank regulations regarding foreign wire transfers. I should also note that regulations regarding wire transfers from accounts in Argentina to countries abroad have recently been significantly tightened.

For foreigners (i.e. non-residents of Argentina who do not have DNIs), transferring funds via exchange houses (i.e. not recognized or regulated by the Central Bank) to buy property in Argentina will create a problem when the property is sold. AFIP (the Argentine tax authority), now insists on seeing that the funds were transferred into Argentina by using an approved method, and that personal property taxes (Bienes personales), have been paid every year.

John

...
As of what I was told by MasterCard in the US and Germany, Maestro does not belong to them any longer (?).
...

Nevertheless, I've ordered and already received a Mastercard credit card on our german bank account for my wife. That will solve 50% of the problem for her down there.

1MIOflight-km - according to the Mastercard International web site, Maestro is still a trademarked brand of the company.

Have you tried your (Germany-issued) Mastercard in Argentina yet? Cards issued in the US have been subject to the same limitations (presumably because they are routed through the Cirrus network) as you described for your Maestro cards. Note, Cirrus is another Mastercard enterprise.

MasterCard International brands:
http://www.mastercardbrandcenter.com/us/moreabout/index.shtml

John

Im with John on the Maestro issue.... Im a Merchant and accept all MasterCard International methods of payment and as far as I know they are still part of MC. There is a new company now called First Data that holds ownership, and I know that there is some rebranding going on... alas, Maestro is still very much part of MasterCard.

On a side note-- for those with memory... in Argentina MasterCard was known as ArgenCard until a few years back, especially for local credit cards. As weird as it may sound, some banks in Argentina still issue credit cards that are not valid internationally (ie they are only good in Argentina and some regional countries).

Hello Gaucho100K:

Very interesting ... first let me say, I have never done a wire transfer to Argentina. I just looked at my account, if I could transfer funds .. and yes, I can .. and I can even select ARS!?!
Actually, I wasn't aware, that it was so painful to wire funds to Argentina. I have sold boxes (computers that is) to Deutsch Sued-Amerikanische Bank, headquartered in Hamburg, now part of Allianz/Dresdner Bank AG .. and I had the impression that they could handle such businesses.

OT: What do you think about this

http://www.vinesofmendoza.com/private_vineyard/private_vineyard_estates.html

not calculating any possible problems with ARS? Is this real? Or just a "smart business idea" to catch other peoples money.

Well yes.... there are many issues to consider when wiring funds to Argentina, unless you go through some of the other standard methods like Western Union, that while painless, are very expensive and you cannot wire significant amounts of cash. Having said this, nowadays with all the additional regulations and controls of flows of capital, there is more paperwork involved in wiring funds to all countries... of course this is depending on how the wires and done and what amounts one is talking about.

Not to beat a deat horse... but remember that even if you can select ARS with your online bank (which is plain nonsense), no German bank deals in Pesos unless its their local branch established in Argentina and duly regulated by the BCRA (Argentine Central Bank). For any transcation that you will do with your bank in Germany, even if you can input an ARS amount it is a game of units of measure.

On your Mendoza question-- yes, the project is indeed for real and I know a few of the principals involved in the exact project you mention. It is not a scam, and for projects of its type, its one of the two best in its concept/category.

It is a lifestyle type purchase/investment... anybody that thinks he will make money from selling wines made under such a scale is simply dreaming.... however, as I state before these types of real estate plays are about having a second (or third) home in a region that you enjoy and having a different concept around it. To give a further example... some people like to have a second home in a place that you can ride horses... or play polo. Those folks will sometimes buy into a Country Club that has an Equestrian Club..... for folks that are serious wine aficionados, a second home with a Club that allows you to make your own wine is a natural choice.

Also, the ARS issues have very little to do in the analysis of investing in real-estate in Argentina. This is because, contrary to what many foreigners think, all real estate transactions are quoted and transacted in US Dollars, or even in Euros... just never in Pesos. This is a very long standing tradition in Argentina (more than 40 years old)... as real estate is together with hard currencies and precious metals have traditionally been the reserve "values" for Argentines looking to place their savings. Someone looking to invest in something like this is not looking for a quick short term flip.... and taking a more paused back stance perspective, prices of land in Mendoza as one of the world capitals in wine are still grossly undervalued (no matter in what currency you measure it).

Gaucho100K, SoFlyOn, I have not tried to withdraw cash with my Mastercard Credit Card. I presume I would run into the same 320,- pesos limit problem. Paying for several 1K pesos with it was no problem some weeks back either in Córdoba and BA.
FirstData also owns ownership of Mastercard and related brands here in Germany lately. That Maestro is no longer part of MasterCard was, as I had written, being told to me by a customer service guy from MasterCard; I do not remember if in the US or Germany, when I started to call around because of my withdrwal problem some weeks ago while being in Argentina.
As well as MasterCard being ArgenCard some years ago in Argentina, as well in Germany it has been Eurocard for ages, but as far as I know, with no local limitations.

This link is in spanish. Maybe this is the background to the withdrawal limit. Use with caution... http://www.seprin.com/portal2/portal/mostrar.php?subaction=showfull&id=1210689977&archive=&start_from=&ucat=4&

Gaucho100K, SoFlyOn, I have not tried to withdraw cash with my Mastercard Credit Card. I presume I would run into the same 320,- pesos limit problem....

Checked my account ... I had no 320 ARS limit problem: End of November 2007 I cashed 1000 ARS at Banco Nation with my German ATM Maestro card and was charged 219 Euros including fees....which reflected about the rate published at Bloomberg.

However, I recognized recently, that this German ATM Maestro card might not be 100% save. I used the card in Portugal and on two occasions (gas station & restaurant) no PIN was needed, only a signature.

11/2007 I had no problem either in Argentina to withdraw +320 pesos from ATM's with Maestro. Problems started 04/2008. I do not need a PIN with my German Maestro in many places within Germany. Even if it has a chip and provides for PIN. Seems like some German merchants are still in the process to implement PIN function yet. Maybe in Portugal they thought it was a credit card :)...
I've even been able to pay on Maestro in Norway and Denmark on signature...

Gaucho100K:

First of all THANK YOU! You are really well informed!I believe, all is true what you write regarding the wire transfer!
Next, your information regarding real estate is very valuable. I was not aware, that all real estate transaction are done in US-$. However, I have never seen advertised RE prices in ARS, only US-$. So, people (from Argentina that is) who purchased property when 1 ARS was 1 US-$ had a nice windfall profit after 2001/2002; however, only when they sold, right?
Or did the rent (for an investment property) increase by factor 3? I know, it's far OT, and I really don't expect an answer on this, just curious....like a smart taxi driver in Buenos Aires who asked me about prices in the US: meat, bread, gas/diesel and cars ....

Thanks again^

My understanding of the reason for ATM limitations is the same as that posted upthread by Jaimito.

About a year ago I was reading that the VISA/Plus network affiliates in Argentina were unhappy with the decreased fee they would receive for the use of their ATMs, and decided to increase revenue by forcing multiple transactions.

It seemed highly likely that the Argentine MasterCard/Cirrus network would eventually follow suit (it's free money after all). And that's what happened in the first week of April. Any anecdotal accounts before this time are spurious.

Required reading:
http://flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Credit/Debit/ATM_Cards_and_Foreign_Exchange

Information on First Data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Data
http://www.firstdata.com/
John

SoFlyOn, might be, but nobody is able to confirm it anywhere that that is the background.

1MIOflight-km - How do German Banks treat ATM transactions on credit cards? In the US, they are treated as cash advances, and thus accrue high interest charges from the withdrawal date. You used to be able to overpay your credit card before traveling abroad to mitigate this problem, but at least with my credit cards that avenue was closed off some time ago.

I've never been able to find more than anecdotal evidence for the ATM restrictions either, but there again, I wouldn't expect a press release from an Argentina bank explaining why :D

John

John, talking only about my German Mastercard, that would be the case, cash advance at high interest charge.

I assume that is the case with all other credit cards in Germany.

I've only done a cash advance some 17 years ago on a German Visa in Italy.

There is no way to "overpay" it before a travel.

The Amount due at closing date (normally at about mid month) is either debited in full or in part (previously agreed partial payment part between card owner and bank) from your bank account it is linked to, directly.

So you could withdraw cash up to your total card limit, usually between 2-8K EUR, depending on the monthly income on your account or personal income.

Regarding actual argentine ATM restrictions on foreign cards, I would at least expect Mastercard/Maestro to know and be able to inform.
But that seems not to be the case, at least here in Germany.
My Bank has been digging into that for 4 weeks now with no response...

I would never expect a press release or alike in Argentina on that...
I've lived there far too long to know that.

Nevertheless, my Bank is willing to reduce the fees (min. 4,- EUR or 1%), so if they reduce them down to a level that it equals my previous (wifes) monthly costs, I'm done with this and Mastercard/Maestro/Cirrus Argentina can claim all they want.

Another angle that hasn't been discussed is the situation with Bank of America debit cards and affiliate banks.

Barclays, BNP Paribas, China Construction Bank, Deutsche Bank, Santander Serfin, Scotiabank, and Westpac allow BofA customers fee-free ATM transactions (but it's not clear whether, for example, BNP Paribas ATMs outside of France would waive the ATM fee). If I remember correctly Alex has personal experience with this scenario?

I also don't know whether all members of this alliance have reciprocal agreements. Does anyone have information that could be of use? Especially for European-based FTers traveling/residing in Argentina who would like to utilize their European bank accounts without being gouged.

John

1MIOflight-km - Ever since the restrictions imposed by VISA/Plus-Banelco in February 2007, no US or European VISA debit card holders have been able to receive any kind of explanation from their home banks as to why the situation evolved. The expat bulletin boards have hundreds of threads describing the frustration of expats with their home banks seeking an explanation. So I wouldn't expect your bank in Germany to be any more forthcoming.

John

This was in the latest newsletter from the US Embassy in BsAs:

9. Update on ATM Withdrawal Limits

Last July, Visa debit- and credit-card holders got a surprise when ATM machines restricted withdrawal limits to about USD $100. MasterCard cardholders got the same surprise in late March. ACS has contacted card companies, banks and Argentine government officials to determine the cause of the restriction. So far, no clear reason for the change has emerged and no party is willing to take credit for this inconvenience to clients.

The good news, however, is that in response to receiving hundreds of complaints both Visa and MasterCard have doubled their withdrawal limits to USD $200. Both companies also explain that cardholders are free to make multiple successive withdrawals at the same machine up to their bank's daily withdrawal limit. ACS continues to research the issue to determine the exact cause for the restriction on international ATM withdrawals and learn how much international cardholders pay in ATM fees as the teller machines do not normally provide this information.

That's good new about the increase in withdrawal limits. They did however get wrong when the problems started with VISA (and complaints were received by the Embassy when it started in Feb 2007), and it should be pointed out that the withdrawal limits are actually in pesos should anyone mistakenly think they can get US$ from a Argentine ATM if they are do not have a bank account there.

We'll see if it's now true that you can withdraw funds up till your daily limit since that's not been true in the past (I've been cut off after 4 or five transactions).

John

As of today there seems to be no change, my wife still cannot withdraw more than 320,- pesos with our german Mastercard related to our german bank account. She's tried with 640,- pesos and less, no chance.
If anyone has been able to, please state details.

Using my Australian issued Visa and MC I am limited to multiple withdrawals of AR600

and it should be pointed out that the withdrawal limits are actually in pesos should anyone mistakenly think they can get US$ from a Argentine ATM if they are do not have a bank account there.

Some ATMs offer both pesos and dollars. Citibank, for one.

This restriction is such bullocks..... I called a radio station today and talked about this... cant understand why the authorities dont allow foreign issued ATM cards to have higher daily limits. These small things end up costing the economy important tourist revenue $$$.... its annoying to have to do multiple withdrawals and allow your bank to take you to the cleaners with fees....

With everything computer driven these days, it would be easy to implement a higher limit for foreign issued cards.... apart from the fact that domestic issued cards have limits of AR$1000 per day, with some banks having higher limits when you use in-house or in-network cash-dispensers... one example is Citibank Argentina (one of my banks locally).

As of today there seems to be no change, my wife still cannot withdraw more than 320,- pesos with our german Mastercard related to our german bank account. She's tried with 640,- pesos and less, no chance.
If anyone has been able to, please state details.

Are you being hit with multiple flat fee commisions if you do repetitive transactions? I ask you this because if you have now arranged for some fee reimbursement from your bank, you may be able to "play" the sistem by using ATMs from different networks.

Apparently, if you withdraw the maximum amount from Banelco network, you can still draw the limit on ATMs of the Link network.... alas, I still havent tried this myself.

Some ATMs offer both pesos and dollars. Citibank, for one.

JC, is that with a US Citi card? I've never been able to withdraw US$ with any US-issued cards (not Citi) at any retail bank.

I'm always offered the choice of pesos or dollars, but if I select dollars the transaction is denied . However if an Argentine friend with a local dollar-denominated account uses the same machine after me, he can withdraw dollars.

John

Are you being hit with multiple flat fee commisions if you do repetitive transactions?

Unfortunately yes, flat fee with every transaction, minimum 4,- EUR or1% of withdrawal amount.

Unfortunately yes, flat fee with every transaction, minimum 4,- EUR or1% of withdrawal amount.
I've only seen one report on a bulletin board of someone being able to get more pesos from an ATM machine - a Brit with an UK HSBC card at a local HSBC bank. He wrote that he could get multiples of 700 pesos a couple of weeks ago, but only multiples of 600 today. Other posters are reporting the continuing restriction at ~320 pesos.

Hopefully the US Embassy will get an earful, and the consular officer responsible for the newsletter will be making some more enquiries (and most likely more bucking passing).

I'm here in BsAs, but since I get all my ATM fees refunded, I've not tried to see how much I can get. I usually request multiple amounts smaller than 100 pesos so that I can get small bills.

John

...With everything computer driven these days, it would be easy to implement a higher limit for foreign issued cards.... ... In fact it's a very easy software change. The same ATM machines have (overnight) been changed to dispense a maximum of 800, 500, 100, 300, then 320 pesos at various times in the past few years.

There was a report today that Banelco was still "in discussion" with the local banks. I guess it's difficult to give up the huge amount of money that's being gouged from customers.

I'm surprised that a class action suit hasn't (apparently) been filed in the US yet against VISA/MasterCard ...

John

I'm surprised that a class action suit hasn't been (apparently) been filed in the US yet against VISA/MasterCard ...


Sounds like a good chance for an ambulance chaser to make some $$$$$.... :D

Gaucho100K, how good is the exchange rate from US$ at a bank in BA? Wondering if I'll do better just bringing over US cash and changing it at a bank, compared to using an ATM and paying fees from both banks + a [small] spread.

If I were to walk into a bank today with US$1000, when the quoted exchange rate is 3.13825, how many pesos would I get? (Not trying to get an exact amount, just a general idea of the conversion spread at the bank)

My math has me getting AR$2968 for my US$1000 if I use ATMs, after paying multiple ATM fees on both ends and the exchange spreads my bank will charge me.

Do you think I would do better just changing cash? Even if the amount I receive is the same, I'd rather use the bank- then I can get lots of AR$20 notes for tips.

JC, is that with a US Citi card? I've never been able to withdraw US$ with any US-issued cards (not Citi) at any retail bank.

I'm always offered the choice of pesos or dollars, but if I select dollars the transaction is denied . However if an Argentine friend with a local dollar-denominated account uses the same machine after me, he can withdraw dollars.



No, I was offered it, but never selected it. I figured that if it offered it to you, then it would give them to you. However, this is Argentina... :)

My unscientific anecdotal conclusion after withdrawing over the last few days is that ATMs affiliated with the Banelco network allow withdrawals of AR600 and those affiliated to Link allow AR320.

Gaucho100K, how good is the exchange rate from US$ at a bank in BA? Wondering if I'll do better just bringing over US cash and changing it at a bank, compared to using an ATM and paying fees from both banks + a [small] spread.

If I were to walk into a bank today with US$1000, when the quoted exchange rate is 3.13825, how many pesos would I get? (Not trying to get an exact amount, just a general idea of the conversion spread at the bank)

My math has me getting AR$2968 for my US$1000 if I use ATMs, after paying multiple ATM fees on both ends and the exchange spreads my bank will charge me.

Do you think I would do better just changing cash? Even if the amount I receive is the same, I'd rather use the bank- then I can get lots of AR$20 notes for tips.

The best exchange rates are usually found at the Banco Nacion... and at some exchange bureaus in the MicroCentro (financial district). In Argentina, it is not customary to have commisions charged, so the rate you will see posted will be the rate you are paid. Remember that you will see two figures quoted... a buy and a sell rate... the amount you will receive in Pesos will be your USD x the buying rate.

Other commercial banks usually have larger spreads than the Banco Nacion... for example, its not uncommon to see CitiBank quote teller rates of 3.02 and 3.12 (for buy and sell respectively)... and at the same time you be able to find 3.08 and 3.12 at a Banco Nacion. If you have time... shop around and check who has the best buying rate... and also, if you will transact USD1000, it doesnt hurt to ask if they will not offer you an additional cent or so (but this only at Exchange Bureaus, not at banks).

Hope this helps....

Cheers,
Alex

Folks.... aside from the anecdotal value... I dont see why visitors would want to get USD from an ATM machine..... since this may mean that you end up paying the buy/sell spread when you have to exchange to Pesos.

Unless you are going to make a purchase at a Merchant that will give you a "special" rate for your Dollars... I cant see why you would want a EZE ATMachine to give you Dollars.... (???)

My math has me getting AR$2968 for my US$1000 if I use ATMs, after paying multiple ATM fees on both ends and the exchange spreads my bank will charge me.


Sorry... Ive just only now caught this..... the above shows me that the fees are killing you.... even if you went to a commercial bank that will give you the non-customer rate, you would for sure get at least AR$3.00 for every dollar... so even without going to a Banco Nacion or Exchange Bureau you are already ahead. This is a no-brainer in your case.

Thank you Alex, I really appreciate the help.

My Pleasure.

So, I'll be in BsAs in June for a week. Would it just be best to bring US cash money (a weeks worth) and exchange it at the airport? I always have a moment of panic when I try my debit card in a foreign ATM. I've had a few instances where I couldn't get cash on the first try and had to find another - all the while with no more than a pocketful of change and days remaining before departure.

From what Alex (Gaucho100K) has posted, quite possibly- check the fees your bank will charge you to use an ATM, keeping in mind you will only be able to get the equivalent of US$100 or US$200 out per withdrawal.

If you use an ATM, you can be charged the following:
1) Fee from your bank for using a foreign ATM
2) Currency exchange %
3) Fee from the Argentinian ATM owner

Here is a list of some banks and their fees:
http://flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Credit/Debit/ATM_Cards_and_Foreign_Exchange

Do a little quicky math... for me, it's substantially cheaper to exchange cash than use an ATM. If you have your checking/savings account at a bank with low/zero foreign ATM fees, the ATM might be a better bet.

Today, I took out AR$400 at one time w/o problem. (I didn't want to try for more, because my bank doesn't charge me and I don't want extra pesos.) Card has a MC and Star logo.

Wirelessly posted (Palm TX: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D050; Blazer/4.3) 16;320x448)

So, I'll be in BsAs in June for a week. Would it just be best to bring US cash money (a weeks worth) and exchange it at the airport? I always have a moment of panic when I try my debit card in a foreign ATM. I've had a few instances where I couldn't get cash on the first try and had to find another - all the while with no more than a pocketful of change and days remaining before departure.

I would bring approx. USD 1000 in cash and exchange 400 or so at Eze - avoid the crooks and go to the BNA.

Card has a MC and Star logo.

On what Bank in what country?

I'm surprised that a class action suit hasn't (apparently) been filed in the US yet against VISA/MasterCard ...
John

John,
in my opinion that wouldn't help. It's a local issue in Argentina and filing a suit in Argentina against Visa, Mastercard, Maestro, Cirrus, FirstData or alike could/would, according to my experience, be a lifeteme never ending pain..

I believe that only the users can start to claim at their banks so much that at the end they find a solution to it somehow by getting the fees waived or alike.

On the other side it hase been close to 2 months now and I still do not get a solution propposal from my bank here in Germany.

On the other side it's no big issue for one-time tourists in Argentina, but it's a real pain if you use this on a regular basis...

On what Bank in what country?

US. The Mechanics Bank (California)

3) Fee from the Argentinian ATM owner
Could someone elaborate on this? I don't ever recall being charged a fee on the Argentina ATM side. Is this only certain systems or Argentina banks? Or is this something that started since mid-March?

Could someone elaborate on this? I don't ever recall being charged a fee on the Argentina ATM side. Is this only certain systems or Argentina banks? Or is this something that started since mid-March?

I've used 2 banks already the past couple days and no fees mentioned.

AR$600 @ Banco Itaú. No problem. (I needed more money unexpectedly because I went to a store yesterday called "Cheap Wine To Get Drunk By" and it was complete false advertising, the negociant locked me up and made me spend all my AR$ before unlocking the exit. :p

I really think that a lot of the atm issues have calmed down. I haven't had any big problems... .In the past...( months and years ago) there were times when atms often didnt have money or had tough limits.. Right now the only problem is that some banks are limiting 600 pesos (aprox 200usd) per however you can easiliy just do it twice for 1200... I use a wamu account which still reimburses me for any fees..

Last week I got 1500peso on first try at a LINK bank not BANELCO on Guido/montevideo...

... I use a wamu account which still reimburses me for any fees..

Type of card used?
Bank account located where?

Could someone elaborate on this? I don't ever recall being charged a fee on the Argentina ATM side. Is this only certain systems or Argentina banks? Or is this something that started since mid-March?

I'm sorry if I incorrectly listed this. I have certainly been charged fees at foreign ATMs, but I'm not specifically sure that it occurred in Argentina. I think I've been charged fees at out-of-the-way ATMs in Argentina, but my memory isn't as sharp as it used to be. If so, they were dwarfed by the US$5 fee my own bank charged me each time I used one.

Type of card used?
Bank account located where?

u.s. issued washington mutual debit card (wamu) ,,,, not sure if all their accounts reimburse you for fees but mine does....

debit card

Mastercard/Maestro, Visa/Electron/Plus, which one?

Mastercard/Maestro, Visa/Electron/Plus, which one?

wamu debit mastercard.... logo.... used as debit not as credit card.


Important advice,,,, You MUST notify your bank before going International especially to Argentina.. I had trouble once in BsAs when I forgot to do this and card was declined until i called and told them where I was. Took two days to clear up.. In Europe didnt have same problem but I dont take that chance anymore.

According to my German Bank (Sparkasse) today, they have received further reports besides mine in Argentina from other customers also with low withdrawal limits from Chile and Uruguay within the last weeks, at least...
The guy I've talked to knew about other countries in the region also but did not remember which.
He offered me a Visa/Electron debit card but I've rejected it, stating that I would run into the same problems as with my Maestro debit card
They're still working on it...:confused: :(

AR$600 @ Banco Itaú. No problem. (I needed more money unexpectedly because I went to a store yesterday called "Cheap Wine To Get Drunk By" and it was complete false advertising, the negociant locked me up and made me spend all my AR$ before unlocking the exit. :p

Sounds like you need to change your Wine Merchant.... :p :D

Sounds like you need to change your Wine Merchant.... :p :D

Yes . . .go to that one in Palermo that will get you to spend all of your USD before unlocking the door. :p

Yes . . .go to that one in Palermo that will get you to spend all of your USD before unlocking the door. :pYou mean the terroirista on Buschiazzo? I think that was Eastbay1K's problema :D

You mean the terroirista on Buschiazzo? I think that was Eastbay1K's problema :D

Well, as we sit here right now, it looks like soon, I'll be one of your temporary neighbo(u)rs and can hire my own peoples to take care of any prior terrorisms.

I have had no ATM problems, except for kicks, I tried to extract US$ one time, and the machine told me to go FOAD.

You mean the terroirista on Buschiazzo? I think that was Eastbay1K's problema :D

I hear the terrorist mentioned is on the Argentine Wine Authorities most wanted list.... he is accused of selling 3rd rate quality Spoof Juice.... :eek: :eek: :eek:

I have had no ATM problems

I assume recently (I mean after April 1st 2008).
Type of card (Credit or debit)? For what ATM network? Bank? Account located where?

I hear the terrorist mentioned is on the Argentine Wine Authorities most wanted list.... he is accused of selling 3rd rate quality Spoof Juice.... :eek: :eek: :eek:
Hence the appellation terroirista terrorista

I assume recently (I mean after April 1st 2008).
Type of card (Credit or debit)? For what ATM network? Bank? Account located where?Eastbay1K's probably left for EZE already, but if you look upthread he notes that his debit card is from The Mechanics Bank (California) with MasterCard cobranding. He's been here in BsAs this last week.

John

Eastbay1K's probably left for EZE already, but if you look upthread he notes that his debit card is from The Mechanics Bank (California) with MasterCard cobranding. He's been here in BsAs this last week.

John

What he said. And not only have I left for EZE, I am here right now.

According to my German Bank (Sparkasse) today, they have received further reports besides mine in Argentina from other customers also with low withdrawal limits from Chile and Uruguay within the last weeks, at least...
The guy I've talked to knew about other countries in the region also but did not remember which.
He offered me a Visa/Electron debit card but I've rejected it, stating that I would run into the same problems as with my Maestro debit card
They're still working on it...:confused: :(:)

Up-date:
We have been able last week to withdraw :D 600,- pesos/withdrawal on several withdrawals/day up to our daily limit of 500,- EUR.
At least something.
Nevertheless, my Bank still has no clue on how to solve this...:td: :rolleyes:

:)

Up-date:
We have been able last week to withdraw :D 600,- pesos/withdrawal on several withdrawals/day up to our daily limit of 500,- EUR.
At least something.
Nevertheless, my Bank still has no clue on how to solve this...:td: :rolleyes:

Same in here. Up to 600 pesos/withdrawal
It's a temporary rule for all foreigns accounts. Last month was 320 pesos.
Hopefully will increase the amount soon.

It's a temporary rule for all foreigns accounts.

Do you have any further informations as to if it really is temporary?
For how long?
Why only for foreign accounts?
Source of that information?
Important to know for my Bank "negotiation"...

Do you have any further informations as to if it really is temporary?
For how long?
Why only for foreign accounts?
Source of that information?
Important to know for my Bank "negotiation"...

You can make all the withdrawals that you want up to your bank daily limit but just up to 600 pesos/withdrawal.
It was on the news and newspapers (began in April). It's a governemnt federal rule for all ATM's around the country. They say that is mainly for security reasons (protect tourist for possible robbery) but in my opinion just want extra bank fees.
You can't predict what's going to happen...changes week by week
I love my country but we have these things...or these politics...
Good luck!

It was on the news and newspapers (began in April). It's a governemnt federal rule for all ATM's around the country. They say that is mainly for security reasons (protect tourist for possible robbery) but in my opinion just want extra bank fees.
You can't predict what's going to happen...changes week by week
I love my country but we have these things...or these politics...
Good luck!

Well, that's news; nobody before in this forum wrote that this is an Argentina government federal rule for all ATM's around the country...

And I strongly doubt that it was published like that in the news and newspapers as nobody really knows the background to this, besides wild speculations.
The only media that I know about that has written something and or informed their email news subscribers about this is www.seprin.com

Besides the fact that the same is happening also in Uruguay and Chile.

So, locals are not subject to security issues...:rolleyes:...

I'm as "local" as you are, born and raised in Baires... and know how unpredictable Argentina is.
I do not blame it on the government, 43% of the population in theory voted the actual one...