I've never had this occur and wanted to see what everyone's thought is on this.

Last night, taking the last flight out from CLT to TLH; people are boarding and some guy (obviously intoxicated) sits in the wrong seat. The ticketed passenger called an FA over who then asked the guy in the wrong seat for his ticket stub. He starts looking around for one (can't find it); while he is looking, he keeps saying something along the lines of "Fine, I won't go to Tallahassee tonight, kick me off the plane..."

Anyway, he can't produce the ticket stub and the FA tells him to get up and grab a seat in the back.

About five minutes later, the pilot comes on and says "Everyone here going to Tallahassee, right?". About a minute later, an FA gets on the PA and says "Is everyone here going to Tallahassee? We have 69 ticketed passengers and a count of 70" :eek:

Another five minutes goes by, the GA is on the plane, another announcement is made about 69 ticketed passengers and a count of 70.

Next thing I know, the door is shut and we begin to taxi... no-one had gotten off the plane! :confused:

I'm thinking that taking off with an "extra" passenger (my guess is the drunk guy who couldn't produce his ticket stub) is a big no-no???

Does this warrant a complaint to the FAA?

Thoughts?


aw

I'd guess that the GA figured out why the count was off. But even if he/she didn't, what is there to complain about? Would it have been better somehow if they had emptied the plane and re-boarded? Assuming the crew's weight and balance paperwork matched the actual passenger count, the FAA probably wouldn't care.

I'd guess that the GA figured out why the count was off. But even if he/she didn't, what is there to complain about? Would it have been better somehow if they had emptied the plane and re-boarded? Assuming the crew's weight and balance paperwork matched the actual passenger count, the FAA probably wouldn't care.

If there are 70 individuals on an a/c with a passenger manifest of 69 individuals, they violated both FAA and TSA reg's.

If there are 70 individuals on an a/c with a passenger manifest of 69 individuals, they violated both FAA and TSA reg's.

As a pilot, BoeingBoy would surely have an answer to all of this.

Paging BoeingBoy.

I'm not Boeing Boy, but maybe I can shed a little bit of light on the subject. Passenger counts are occasionally off by one or two, and there is a protocol to follow in that case. The f/a's will usually do another headcount, and if there is still a discrepancy then the agents will go in and recount tickets. The ticket recount will almost always match the actual passenger count, and that information is usually relayed while the airplane is taxiing out.
As far as security is concerned...they are more concerned if the count is less than the number of tickets than over. They worry more about someone that checked in for the flight and possibly checked bags and then didn't board the airplane, so if your count was indeed over by one then I wouldn't be too alarmed.
You can notify the FAA or TSA if you want, but I honestly don't think it's warranted in this instance.

I can't comment on what the protocol is these days, but I can confirm that, I, too, have seen precisely this event occur -- twice.

I'm interested to hear from those on the inside what protocol is here.

I can well imagine that the only solution that they would've had would have been to approach each pax separately and ask for identification to match the printed pax manifest. Whoever wasn't on the list would've been asked to explain.

I haven't been to TLH in a looong time - is it still all express? If so, that carrier's policy's would govern the situation.

As for mainline, the company changed our procedures several years ago - seems sorting out discrepancies between the F/A & GA passenger counts were causing too many delays so the GA's count became the "official" count for W/B purposes. Here's the appropriate section of our Flt Ops Manual (FAA approved non-aircraft specific policies & procedures):

-----
Customer Service. Customer Service is responsible for determining passenger headcount and the accuracy of the manifest.

Prior to removing the jetway, the customer service agent will state the passenger headcount and the fuel on board in pounds (from the W/B record). The CSA will then ask the captain if he is ready to depart.

Flight Crew. The flight crew ensures the passenger headcount received by the agent matches the count shown on the final weight & balance. The total passenger count on the final W&B message may vary by +2.

Passenger Count. If the captain desires a flight attendant passenger count to confirm the agent provided number, the captain may obtain a count after departing the gate and prior to the safety demonstration/video.

• Note •
The FAA does not require a flight attendant passenger count for manifest or W & B purposes.
-----

As you can see, we are not required to get a passenger count from the F/A's. As long as the number of passengers shown on the W/B is no more than 2 off what is received verbally from the GA, we're not supposed to care how many passengers are actually on the plane. I suspect, however, that GalleyWench will confirm that 99+% of the Captains want a count from the F/A's before leaving the gate.

Jim

I'm very surprised. I would have thought that after the last 5 years of tightening air travel security, an unaccounted for person on an aircraft would be considered a problem. At the very least, he apparently got on the aircraft without being checked.

Me 2. On a US flight from DEN to PHL almost 4 weeks ago, the F/A wouldn't close the boarding door because, "we have 2 passegers that we aren't supposed to have". It was 2 people from a family of 5 whom the G/A neglected to collect a boarding pass. We left the gate 25 minutes late. But, they made the numbers match before pushing back.

What on earth happens if a catering truck slips a shoe-bomber on board? Sounds pretty easy to do now. Or, the a/c goes down on departure. Are the emergency personnel looking for 69 or 70 people?

I was on a flight to IAH once and they couldn't 'balance' the passengers. So after several recounts, they started calling names over the PA and we had to raise our hands and say 'here' when they called our name. I was freaking to as I had a connection on CO that I came close to missing (fortunately it was late).

Or, the a/c goes down on departure. Are the emergency personnel looking for 69 or 70 people?
In a case such as you describe (like Comair @ LEX), they'll be looking for survivors period. Once it gets to the point of accounting for everyone - survivor or not - the passenger count will come into play.

Other situations, where there's communication between the cockpit and ATC, is where the actual "headcount" comes into play and why I suspect most captains want a passenger count instead of relying on the GA's ticket count. Among the several questions ATC asks when we declare an emergency is how many "souls" are on board. That includes not only ticketed passengers, but lap children and crew - the latter not included in the W/B "headcount" though presumably lap children are shown on the manifest.

Jim

In a case such as you describe (like Comair @ LEX), they'll be looking for survivors period. Once it gets to the point of accounting for everyone - survivor or not - the passenger count will come into play.

Other situations, where there's communication between the cockpit and ATC, is where the actual "headcount" comes into play and why I suspect most captains want a passenger count instead of relying on the GA's ticket count. Among the several questions ATC asks when we declare an emergency is how many "souls" are on board. That includes not only ticketed passengers, but lap children and crew - the latter not included in the W/B "headcount" though presumably lap children are shown on the manifest.

Jim

I think I am going to cancel all of the rest of my trips. Before the plane goes down and while I am still alive I prefer to be called a person instead of a soul. :(

I think I am going to cancel all of the rest of my trips. Before the plane goes down and while I am still alive I prefer to be called a person instead of a soul. :(

I think that's a matter of one's faith and beliefs.

BoeingBoy... unfortunately, flights are still express... PSA to be exact.

I also would have thought that with todays "tightened" security that flying with a discrepancy between ticketed and counted passengers would be a big no-no... guess I was wrong!

Thanks for the info everyone; guess I was blowing this a little out of proportion :)



aw

Does this warrant a complaint to the FAA?

Thoughts?



This situation does not warrant a complaint to the FAA. Obviously they figured out where the discrepency was and everything was okay. When a situation like this occurs we will first go through and count the boarding passes if that's off we will match the boarding passes with the pax manifest to see if we lost a boarding pass or failed to pull one. If that doesn't recitify the situation we will print a manifest and go on the airplane and check each pax. I've never seen it get to the point where we had to go on board and check every pax. Most of these situations are resolved after going through the boarding passes.

I remeber a couple years ago Air Canada getting in big trouble for something like this. From what I recall the flight was from Halifax, Nova Scotia to St. John's, Newfoundland and then continuing to London, England. Well on the short YHZ-YYT leg a passenger fell asleep. When she woke up she asked the FA how long until we land, when she was told it would be about 4 hours it became evident something had gone wrong. She was supposed to get off at YYT, but instead got a free trip to LHR, even if it was for only a few hours. Not sure how the passenger count worked on this one, but you'd think they would've been a little more careful on when changing from domestic to intl.