FlyerTalk has always been a good source of advice so here is an "off the wall" question. I am in the process of moving to Tokyo. I am looking for an apartment. I have focused on expat areas of Azabu, Hiroo, and Roppongi. We have found an apartment in the Aoba Building which is also home to Hobgoblin which I am sure many FTers are probably familiar with. I have a very simple question:

Would you live in this area of Roppongi or would you opt for the quieter areas of Azabu or Hiroo?

thanks,

Marc

PS Tokyo Hilton has been a wonderful place to stay for last week; I will see how it is after a month.

As a long time resident of Roppongi, I would not move there. The street hustlers/pimps are constantly on the prawl in that area.

There is no way I would live in Rapongi.

Take the advise of the of the other poster. In addition to the excitement, it can be dangerous there.

FlyerTalk has always been a good source of advice so here is an "off the wall" question. I am in the process of moving to Tokyo. I am looking for an apartment. I have focused on expat areas of Azabu, Hiroo, and Roppongi. We have found an apartment in the Aoba Building which is also home to Hobgoblin which I am sure many FTers are probably familiar with. I have a very simple question:

Would you live in this area of Roppongi or would you opt for the quieter areas of Azabu or Hiroo?


Sure, if you like being hounded every day on your way to the station by the LivePerson equivalent of the 419 scam. If I were to live in the Roppongi area, I'd live on the other side, the Akasaka/Nogizaka side, further down the slope towards Nishi Azabu, or behind Roppongi Hills in Moto Azabu or Azabu Juban.

it can be dangerous there.

Especially if you get lost and find yourself at Heartland :p!
Live where it is most convenient to your job. And if you are in a real pinch for a place I am sure someone on this board can hook you up with a great place!

Again, in regards to Roppongi, I’m another of the ‘no-way!’ brigade.

You can walk to Roppongi from Azabu Juban, but it’s miles away in other respects.

One of the reasons that Azabu Juban and Hiroo have their fair share of expats is the amount of Embassies and Consulates in the area. One of the reasons that this concentration came about is because this part of Tokyo has particularly solid foundations and has traditionally remained less prone to earthquake damage. This also made it a sound choice for affluent Tokyoites (there are a good few members of the Japanese Aristocracy in the ‘Juban.)

As an address, Minami Azabu seems to provoke the same kind of reaction from Japanese people as somewhere like Chelsea or Fullham would from Brits. Roppongi is more like Leicester Square… it might be alright for a night out, but you wouldn’t want to live there.

Hiroo has a lovely park and very good stores for International foods, but I'm more familiar with Azabu Juban as that's where my husband's family home is. (He used to play in the park in Hiroo as a child... and he taught me how to make sailing boats out of bamboo leaves there)

Welcome to Tokyo! I just (finally) got settled about a month ago in Yoyogi-Uehara, which is a bit off the expat beaten path but still plenty expat. I've heard it described as the area for expats who want a bit more Japanese experience.

That having been said, I'd second the other posters who said where you live really should depend on where you work. I like that I can walk to Shibuya where I work in a pinch, such as this morning when there was bad construction on the road. Hiroo and Azabu-Juban are also good places that I considered but ended up finding better housing in Uehara; colleagues at work live in both places and really enjoy it (they have kids, I don't, but I'm not sure that'd adjust the preferences between these neighborhoods).

Since moving here, some other areas that I've found and would consider living in are Naga-Meguro, Shimo-kitazawa, and Sangenjaya. Then again, those are all much busier neighborhoods and are also further out from the Yamanote. I did look in the latter two areas, however, and couldn't find what I considered to be high-quality housing. As it is, I ended up on a major street, which has its upsides and downsides (a bit noisy).

But I'd agree with all the posters above that the area of Roppongi that you're looking at right now is good to visit, but not a great place to live.

hamburgler

A good question and one which deserves a good answer. That building is across the street from an American School in Japan (ASIJ) bus stop so not too bad by the standards of the folks that send their kids there. It is also next to a spot where a new supermarket is opening soon. That part of Roppongi is just fine in many respects. If you are walking from the crossing to the Hob, you will indeed encounter the seedy side of Roppongi at night. There are pluses and minuses that will be increased or decreased depending on where you are walking to/from and whether or not you will be driving.

Will you be working in Roppongi? In Roppongi Hills perhaps? If so I would look closely at the areas of Nishi Azabu which is entirely different from both Minami and Higashi Azabu areas. Or even Moto-azabu for that matter. I would consider Hiroo for sure as it is quiet but rather boring. What you really need to do is establish what your budget is, how close you want to be to work/play/food shopping/restaurants/subway/etc. Then you would be well advised to contact both KEN Corporation and Plaza Homes. Both of these have extensive experience in the areas you describe and with non-Japanese tenants. They will be able to prepare a spreadsheet showing a comparison of available units at your price in all areas. They will then take you to each in their car and make sure you have all paperwork handled appropriately. They will also be able to intelligently discuss the merits and demerits of each place they show you. I can do this with you also, but as I work for a single developer my views of what is good and not may be slightly biased. I do however have 10 years in the field at Tokyo’s biggest private developer so you are welcome to ask questions here or via e-mail. I have a fair bit of information and I am always happy to help a fellow FTer.

Mike

Thanks for all the inputs. I will primarily be working in Fuchu but want to live in the Hiroo, Azabu, Roppongi areas. We want to live in a midrise or highrise so we can have a bright apartment and some form of a view. In addition to the Aoba building, we are considering Azabudai Towers, Homat Viscount, Roppongi Arents, and Hiroo Gardens. None of them have near the space for the money as Aoba. In addition, the commute from Roppongi using Toei Oedo to Keio New Line to Keio is the shortest from any of the areas.

We also looked in Daikayama and Ebisu. We haven't looked in Uehara but the commute ends up not being that easy as I would either have to go back into Shinjuku on Chiyoda or take the Odakyu and then connect to Keio.

We have a good realtor. We are trying to stay under 750,000-en. Obviously, the reason I originally posted was a concern about the neighborhood. We have looked at so many first or second floor dreary apartments that the Aoba building really shines. It doesn't hurt that Legends shows USC football games each Sunday when they are on.

Again, thanks for all of the help.

Marc

Thanks for all the inputs. I will primarily be working in Fuchu but want to live in the Hiroo, Azabu, Roppongi areas. We want to live in a midrise or highrise so we can have a bright apartment and some form of a view. In addition to the Aoba building, we are considering Azabudai Towers, Homat Viscount, Roppongi Arents, and Hiroo Gardens. None of them have near the space for the money as Aoba. In addition, the commute from Roppongi using Toei Oedo to Keio New Line to Keio is the shortest from any of the areas.

We also looked in Daikayama and Ebisu. We haven't looked in Uehara but the commute ends up not being that easy as I would either have to go back into Shinjuku on Chiyoda or take the Odakyu and then connect to Keio.

We have a good realtor. We are trying to stay under 750,000-en. Obviously, the reason I originally posted was a concern about the neighborhood. We have looked at so many first or second floor dreary apartments that the Aoba building really shines. It doesn't hurt that Legends shows USC football games each Sunday when they are on.

Again, thanks for all of the help.

Marc

For that kind of dough you should talk to mjm, he can put you somewhere nice instead of some nice building above a second-rate bar down the street from Tokyo's answer to the 3rd World. 750K goes a long, long way in Tokyo.

Also, if I was working in Fuchu, hypothetically speaking of course (man, did you draw the short end of the stick, or what? I would rather not come to Japan than work in Fuchu and have to commute from central Tokyo), I'd live somewhere more west, maybe somewhere in Minami Aoyama or Akasaka, where I could get on the Oedo line at Aoyama Ichome or Kokuritsu Kyogijo.

For that kind of dough you should talk to mjm, he can put you somewhere nice instead of some nice building above a second-rate bar down the street from Tokyo's answer to the 3rd World. 750K goes a long, long way in Tokyo.

Also, if I was working in Fuchu, hypothetically speaking of course (man, did you draw the short end of the stick, or what? I would rather not come to Japan than work in Fuchu and have to commute from central Tokyo), I'd live somewhere more west, maybe somewhere in Minami Aoyama or Akasaka, where I could get on the Oedo line at Aoyama Ichome or Kokuritsu Kyogijo.
I will second the Pickles on this.....750K a month.....I wonder what you could get for that in Fukuoka? :p

http://www.moriliving.com/residence/index.html.en

Thanks for the link to moriliving. Unfortunately, for our budget, there was not a single property with 1.5 baths; one of our hard requirements. 750,000 doesn't go as far as many think in Central Tokyo. One further question, though; how low can you negotiate with Mori Living or Homat....any?

thanks,
Marc

Thanks for the link to moriliving. Unfortunately, for our budget, there was not a single property with 1.5 baths; one of our hard requirements. 750,000 doesn't go as far as many think in Central Tokyo. One further question, though; how low can you negotiate with Mori Living or Homat....any?

thanks,
Marc

That's why you really should look outside the Hiroo/Roppongi area... I had a 1500 sq. ft. 3 bed, 1.5 bath out in Komazawa Daigaku for 550,000 (and it's cheaper now). I'm not saying you should go to Komazawa, because it's farther out and the commute would be tricky, just that there are nicer newer buildings for less money than the buildings you've described. Really, Homats are nasty and overpriced, as is that Azabudai building. Please take a look at Pickles' recommendations of places--there are high-rises in Akasaka in your budget.

Edited to add: What about Kudan-shi-ta or Ichigaya? (No, there aren't really any hyphens in that word, but I have to get around the software somehow.) Much nicer neighborhoods, still plenty of expats (although more European) so there's still expat housing and OK grocery stores, but I think cheaper than where you're looking. Toei Shinjuku Line goes straight into the Keio Line if I remember correctly.

That's why you really should look outside the Hiroo/Roppongi area... I had a 1500 sq. ft. 3 bed, 1.5 bath out in Komazawa Daigaku for 550,000 (and it's cheaper now). I'm not saying you should go to Komazawa, because it's farther out and the commute would be tricky, just that there are nicer newer buildings for less money than the buildings you've described. Really, Homats are nasty and overpriced, as is that Azabudai building. Please take a look at Pickles' recommendations of places--there are high-rises in Akasaka in your budget.


A couple of data points: I live in a 1,000 sq ft 2 bedroom 1-bath a 5 minute walk from Omotesando and a 10 minute walk from the Oedo line Aoyama Itchome. I pay 400K a month in rent. Friend of mine in Nogizaka lives in a 4 bedroom, 2.5 bath split-level duplex, about 2,000 sq ft, pays 800K. I think finding a 1.5 bathroom in a nice area for 750K should not be a major deal these days.

My unit is in a 20 year old building that went through extensive exterior renovations a couple of years back, and my unit went through a gut rehab before I moved in. My friend's place is no more than 3-4 years old.

Another question, Marq--have you actually done the transfer at Shinjuku from the Oedo Line?

Personally, that would be a deal-breaker for me if it were part of my daily commute. Actually, the Oedo Line in general would be a deal-breaker, but that transfer is particularly bad (the Oedo platform is very far below ground at that point and it takes many escalator rides to get anywhere).

No way I'd live in Roppongi. What about living a little closer to Fuchu, to make the commute easier? Perhaps Shinjuku or maybe even somewhere out on the Keio line?

I lived near Chitose-Karasuyama for a couple years and liked it, but that's probably a bit further out than you're looking for

Another question, Marq--have you actually done the transfer at Shinjuku from the Oedo Line?

Personally, that would be a deal-breaker for me if it were part of my daily commute. Actually, the Oedo Line in general would be a deal-breaker, but that transfer is particularly bad (the Oedo platform is very far below ground at that point and it takes many escalator rides to get anywhere).

I have taken the Oedo like to Toei Shinjuku station then came up to where Keio line entrance is located. One thing I haven't tried is catching the Keio New Line directly at Toei Shinjuku station and then connecting to Keio at Sasazuka. Given I can still connect to Express train, this doesn't add any time in the morning and removes that walk in Shinjuku station.

In addition to working at Fuchu, I will occassionally work out at Iruma and at Ichigaya. Also, our mail will be at Hardy Barracks in Nishi Azabu 1 and we can use New Sanno Hotel in Minami Azabu. Azabu, Roppongi, or Hiroo will be most convenient. Getting close to Aoyama Itchome station does save some time; so we have started looking there, too. Also, Akasaka does not seem to add much time on commute and we can easily get to Roppongi and Nishi Azabu by bus when we want.

To be able to have both a guest room and an office, we are starting to look at three bedrooms as many two bedroom units don't have space for desks, too. The requirement for 1.5 bath is also limiting. Finally being "bright" is also limiting our choices.

I do really appreciate all the help I am getting on FlyerTalk. We are going to check out Akasaka today and Roppongi tonight. We are going to see yet more apartments on Monday so I will probably have more questions then.

Again, thanks,

Marc

For access to Fuchu, Iruma, Ichigaya and Azabu I might look for somewhere in Ichigaya. They're building a few new tall-ish developments on the North side of the moat (South facing slope) which might be "bright."

What is 1.5 baths? Does it mean one bathroom and one shower room?

I have visions of a bath cut in half and I worry that you will flood the apartment if you ever try to fill it. :D

(Now we know how many baths it takes to fill the Albert Hall).

I have taken the Oedo like to Toei Shinjuku station then came up to where Keio line entrance is located. One thing I haven't tried is catching the Keio New Line directly at Toei Shinjuku station and then connecting to Keio at Sasazuka. Given I can still connect to Express train, this doesn't add any time in the morning and removes that walk in Shinjuku station.

One advantage of avoiding the transfer at Sasazuka and walking the extra distance in Shinjuku station is that Sasazuka does not get Special Express or Semi-Special Express service - if your schedule is such that you can catch one of those from Shinjuku it can save quite a bit of time on the trip out to Fuchu.

The half part of 1.5 baths refers to the WC (i.e just a toilet) usually located outside of the area where the bedrooms or other living area is. It is often off the hallway near the front door in Japanese apartments. The idea is that guests needing the facilities would not need to go into your own personal area and also you would not have to share a seat used by someone other than you or your S.O.




What is 1.5 baths? Does it mean one bathroom and one shower room?

One advantage of avoiding the transfer at Sasazuka and walking the extra distance in Shinjuku station is that Sasazuka does not get Special Express or Semi-Special Express service - if your schedule is such that you can catch one of those from Shinjuku it can save quite a bit of time on the trip out to Fuchu.

Sasazuka does get Commuter Express trains in the morning. For example, the trains that leave Shinjuku at 0645, 0700, and 0715 all stop in Sasazuka and take just 21 minutes or so from there to Higashi Fuchu without requiring a change of trains in Chofu. All of these trains are nonstop from Chofu to Higashi Fuchu. True, living in Meidaimae would be more convenient to Higashi Fuchu; however, we would like to live in Central Tokyo.

As for Ichigaya, I thought the expatriate community was primarily French versus American or other English speaking countries. My Japanese is already better than my French has ever been.

As for the half bath, mjm stated it perfectly. Actually, if we have guests and have to live with just one toilet for four people, it could get pretty dicey.

Tonight we walked all around Akasaka and then down to Roppongi (after a wonderful dinner at Lawry's). A Guiness at Legends topped off the excursion. Both locations are wonderful. However, grocery shopping in Akasaka seemed a bit hard. We found a Food Express by Akasaka Station but that is a long distance to the Homat Viscount. Having a Food Express opening just next door to the apartment in Roppongi may be the deciding factor on our choice of apartments. However, we will be going out on Monday looking at both Moto Azabu and Aoyama.

Again, thanks for all the help.

Marc

Sasazuka does get Commuter Express trains in the morning. For example, the trains that leave Shinjuku at 0645, 0700, and 0715 all stop in Sasazuka and take just 21 minutes or so from there to Higashi Fuchu without requiring a change of trains in Chofu. All of these trains are nonstop from Chofu to Higashi Fuchu. True, living in Meidaimae would be more convenient to Higashi Fuchu; however, we would like to live in Central Tokyo.


Those are Express / Commuter Rapid trains, not Special or Semi-Special Express trains. These will stop at Sasazuka, Sakurajosui, Chitose-Karasuyama, and Tsutsujigaoka, where as the Special and Semi-Special Expresses will all skip those stations. IIRC, the Special and Semi-Special Expresses are about 7-9 minutes faster for the Shinuku-Chofu section of the route than the Expresses / Commuter Rapids.

Tonight we walked all around Akasaka and then down to Roppongi (after a wonderful dinner at Lawry's). A Guiness at Legends topped off the excursion. Both locations are wonderful. However, grocery shopping in Akasaka seemed a bit hard. We found a Food Express by Akasaka Station but that is a long distance to the Homat Viscount. Having a Food Express opening just next door to the apartment in Roppongi may be the deciding factor on our choice of apartments. However, we will be going out on Monday looking at both Moto Azabu and Aoyama.

Again, thanks for all the help.

Marc

At the intersection where Minami-Aoyama, Kita-Aoyama, and Jingu-mae line up there's a Peacock supermarket. Plus a Tokyo super across on the Kita-Aoyama side and a the Kinokuniya further down towards Shibuya.

Thanks for all the inputs. I will primarily be working in Fuchu but want to live in the Hiroo, Azabu, Roppongi areas. We want to live in a midrise or highrise so we can have a bright apartment and some form of a view. In addition to the Aoba building, we are considering Azabudai Towers, Homat Viscount, Roppongi Arents, and Hiroo Gardens. None of them have near the space for the money as Aoba. In addition, the commute from Roppongi using Toei Oedo to Keio New Line to Keio is the shortest from any of the area.

The only advantage of Roppongi is that it's so close to Japan. :p

Seriously, though, I had to pull out my Tokyo Metropolitan Atlas to remind myself where Fuchu is (aside from "out west of the city somewhere"), and even if I could afford to live in Roppongi, I would not subject myself to the commute. Actually, one of the best locations for access to both Fuchu and Iruma would be Tachikawa, and Ichigaya wouldn't be bad either, given that you could take the Chuo-sen into town and transfer to the Sobu-sen at Yotsuya.

If you had 750,000 yen a month to spend on housing, you could probably buy an estate out in Tachikawa...

However, it sounds as if you may be U.S. military, and in that case, your needs may differ. However, for a civilian whose job was in Fuchu with regular ventures to Iruma and Ichigaya, I'd say Tachikawa for minimum commuting hassle.

I've been living in Roppongi for over a year now. Safety is a non issue. Sure the hustlers look intimidating, but they don't bother you. The issues for me have been 1. Expensive groceries 2. Lack of midpriced restaurants serving non Japanese food . I would also recommend looking outside of the Mori buildings. You get at least 20 - 30% more space for the same price. Amenities remain the same. The added advantage is smaller the dwelling the better you get to know your neighbours. I like the Homats. In fact there is a brand new Homat near where the american embassy staff live. It does not have a view but the interiors are fantastic.

I second the other poster's opinion. Anything that takes away the morning commute should be priority number one. That IMHO is the toughest deal of living in this mega city.

One other mega project coming up - the Roppongi midtown project will almost certainly result in a glut of housing around Roppongi. So (based on the opinion of my real estate agents) prices could actually reduce in Roppongi and thereabouts beginning early next year.

Good luck.

Well, we ended up with a wonderful apartment in Roppongi 5 near Azabu Juban station. Just heard back this afternoon that our application was accepted. Only a few blocks from all the action on Gaien Higashi Dori but quieter and closer to all the shopping in Azabu Juban. Thanks for all the advice from FTers.

Marc

PS Never heard back form Aoba Building landlord; his loss, our gain.

Well, we ended up with a wonderful apartment in Roppongi 5 near Azabu Juban station. Just heard back this afternoon that our application was accepted. Only a few blocks from all the action on Gaien Higashi Dori but quieter and closer to all the shopping in Azabu Juban. Thanks for all the advice from FTers.

Marc

PS Never heard back form Aoba Building landlord; his loss, our gain.

Congratulations!

May you enjoy many many pieces of warm, freshly baked, Hokkaido Milk bread.

That was a score. Maybe even a slam dunk! Nice one. Let me know when you want to toast your new home.

Congratulations!

Mike


Well, we ended up with a wonderful apartment in Roppongi 5 near Azabu Juban station. Just heard back this afternoon that our application was accepted. Only a few blocks from all the action on Gaien Higashi Dori but quieter and closer to all the shopping in Azabu Juban. Thanks for all the advice from FTers.

Marc

PS Never heard back form Aoba Building landlord; his loss, our gain.

Hmm..... Couple of things here.

I've been living in Roppongi for over a year now..... The issues for me have been....2. Lack of midpriced restaurants serving non Japanese food .

Have a peek at both bento.com and eatpia.com as they have several good listings. If you would like to e-mail me I would be pleased to try and point you in the direction of a place or two that would be good and good value at the same time.

I would also recommend looking outside of the Mori buildings. You get at least 20 - 30% more space for the same price. Amenities remain the same.

This one is in fact not true. Outside of the Mori Buildings you do not get the same facilities (Homat spas?), construction (in house developed anti-seismic dampers), safety care in the event of a disater (1200 staff on hand to tap owner run wells for water), and so on. There is a very good reason they are highly regraded throughout the property world. You pay more, but as the housing mini-bubble seems to be going full swing, the market seems willing to bear it.

One other mega project coming up - the Roppongi midtown project will almost certainly result in a glut of housing around Roppongi. So (based on the opinion of my real estate agents) prices could actually reduce in Roppongi and thereabouts beginning early next year.

This project is fully let as is the "On the Hill" project behiond it. Prices are rising not dropping and the new supply coming on line is being pre-let before it is complete. You will see some movement within the area as the people looking fopr the latest or greatest move, but with three year fixed term leases, you will not see casual leessees doing this. I would caution against having expectations for a glut in the Roppongi area anytime soon and certainly not one caused by Midtown, which is for all intents and purposes Roppongi Hills in another location.

As I re-read my post I note that it sounds a bit argumentative. Not trying to be so, just trying to add to the discussion from a property professional's standpoint.

Mike

Well, we ended up with a wonderful apartment in Roppongi 5

Congrats.
With all the folks trying to encourage you to move out to the boonies, I was expecting to hear that you'd bought a farm on the Izu islands from which you could commute via Chofu (http://www.central-air.co.jp/do228_to.html) ....