Hello,

I'm off to Maui in a week for a week and wanted to pick up the Maui Revealed before I leave NYC but can't find it anywhere. Is this only available online? Can I purchase a PDF/e-book version online to download to my laptop?

Thanks,

DJ.

The Strand Bookstore

The Strand Bookstore
Believe it or not that was the FIRST place I went (the one over on Astor Place) and they didn't have it. I thought if they didn't have it no one else would. I've tried about 4 different Barnes & Nobles and even the Books-A-Million in DC (Dupont Circle).

I'm surprised you're finding it so hard to find in NYC! You could always order it from Amazon. With 2 day shipping, it will run you $20 vs. the $15.95 list price.

Aloha, everybody! To me, Maui revealed is what happens every time I give a good trimming to the plants around my windows! As well as every day at sun-up! See you at the waterfalls! Aloha!

Hello,

I'm off to Maui in a week for a week and wanted to pick up the Maui Revealed before I leave NYC but can't find it anywhere. Is this only available online? Can I purchase a PDF/e-book version online to download to my laptop?

Thanks,

DJ.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/002-3293543-7552031?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dstripbooks%3Arelevance-above&keywords=maui+revealed

Cheapest online source is Buy.com or Overstock.com.

Thanks to all. In DC for the next couple days and I just picked it up at the Books A Million in Dupont Circle that didn't have it last week.

Thanks to all. In DC for the next couple days and I just picked it up at the Books A Million in Dupont Circle that didn't have it last week.
By the way (though it seems moot now), Costco in Hawaii carries the "Revealed" books for a good price (less than $10 IIRC, maybe a tad bit more). And, there's a Costco right smack dab near the entrance of Kahului Airport.

Please, PLEASE, be warned that the "formerly secret", remote, exotic sounding spots in Maui/Oahu/Big Island/Kauai Revealed are as dangerous as they were "secret". But no quotes around dangerous. See article in Saturday 11/18 www.mauinews.com Two Dead After Apparent Drowning At 'Olivine Pools'

Please, PLEASE, be warned that the "formerly secret", remote, exotic sounding spots in Maui/Oahu/Big Island/Kauai Revealed are as dangerous as they were "secret". But no quotes around dangerous. See article in Saturday 11/18 www.mauinews.com Two Dead After Apparent Drowning At 'Olivine Pools'
These books have caused a myriad of legal problems in the Islands. Tourists think they can go anywhere to exploit anything, disregard the risks in the books, then sue the State when they get in trouble. :rolleyes:

Yes, or sue the landowner who for generations had left a path open for community access to local folks who knew the area and knew what they were doing and knew both the dangers and the delights.

Or the landowner has, sadly but understandably, chosen to gate and fence what formerly had been sort of local kine community access.

Direct link to article: http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=25295

I'm not sure why you blame the guide book. :confused: It's no different than any other accidental death.

Direct link to article: http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=25295

I'm not sure why you blame the guide book. :confused: It's no different than any other accidental death.

Don't be confused.
Confused is choosing the isolated, barren, jagged a'a headlands of Kahakuloa, over Ka'anapali Beach for bathing, with directions provided by the Revealed series.

Don't be confused.
Confused is choosing the isolated, barren, jagged a'a headlands of Kahakuloa, over Ka'anapali Beach for bathing, with directions provided by the Revealed series.

I think these books have value - but many of its suggestions are only for experienced, knowledgable visitors who understand the risks involved and are willing to accept those risks without blaming others when things go wrong.

A few weeks ago, we decided to try a "hidden" trail to some "secret" falls on Kaua'i - well, not a secret to locals, but certainly off the beaten track. While hiking down the road to the trailhead, I slipped on a muddy path, took a short flight, and landed on a rock cracking a couple ribs. A few days of intense discomfort and I am still recovering - but I just chalked it up to another "oopsie". No blame. Just a little adventure gone wrong. Had it been worse, I would still have no right to blame anyone except myself.

The books are filled with warnings, especially the beach section which has ample warning about shore breaks, currents and seasonal differences. If a tourist who is unfamiliar with the beach ignores the warnings or doesn't educate themselves from other source and is injured or worse, they have no one to blame but themselves.

I'm not sure why you blame the guide book. :confused: It's no different than any other accidental death.

I think the last line of the article sums up the concerns so many of us have with guidebooks such as the "Revealed" series...

The rocky coastal area is among several sites considered to be hazardous to anyone unfamiliar with the local conditions that are publicized in recent guidebooks about the island.

I'm not sure the dangers are made clear enough. I've learned the hard way about the dangers of the ocean and I've lost friends who have drowned at places such as the one listed above.

Additional discussion regarding this can be found in the following thread:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323586

Please, PLEASE, be warned that the "formerly secret", remote, exotic sounding spots in Maui/Oahu/Big Island/Kauai Revealed are as dangerous as they were "secret". But no quotes around dangerous. See article in Saturday 11/18 www.mauinews.com Two Dead After Apparent Drowning At 'Olivine Pools'

Aloha, bocastephen!
I never mentioned "blame".

Aloha, bocastephen!
I never mentioned "blame".

Sorry about that, I wasn't referencing your post - it was a general comment referring to those who use these (and other guidebooks or advise) to go to areas that are dangerous or off the regular tourist trails - get injured or worse - then blame the books or file lawsuits against landowners or the state and try to have access cut off for everyone.

In the right hands, these books are a blessing. In the wrong hands, they are an accident waiting to happen.

In the right hands, these books are a blessing. In the wrong hands, they are an accident waiting to happen.[/QUOTE]

I've never met a person who'd admit that theirs are the "wrong hands", though!

Half.com has "Maui Revealed" "like new" as low as $3.33 plus shipping.

Yes, or sue the landowner who for generations had left a path open for community access to local folks who knew the area and knew what they were doing and knew both the dangers and the delights.

I've heard this said before, but have never seen any actual lawsuits reported on. Do you have a link to some? I'm also wondering how that fits with Hawaii statute 520, which seems to pretty much release private landowners of such liability. http://www.americanwhitewater.org/resources/repository/Hawaii_Recreational_Use_Statute.htm

(a synopsis)
Along with most states across the nation, Hawaii has developed a statutory exemption limiting liability for those who open their lands to the public for recreational uses. Hawaii Revised Statutes section 520-1 encourages owners of land to make land and water areas available to the public for recreational purposes by limiting their liability toward persons entering thereon for such purposes."80 Hawaii Revised Statutes section 520-4 provides that:

an owner of land who either directly or indirectly invites or permits without charge any person to use the property for recreational purposes does not: (1) Extend any assurance that the premises are safe for any purpose; (2) Confer upon the person the legal status of an invitee or licensee to whom a duty of care is owed; (3) Assume responsibility for, or incur liability for, any injury to person or property caused by an act of omission or commission of such persons . . . .

In other words, when an owner of land does not charge for the land to be used for recreational purposes, there is no duty of care owed. The statute provides for liability when a landowner has charged a fee for use of the land or where the injured person was a houseguest.

I have friends here who have family members who have had such a suit, but I don't know of an online link to show you.

And even if such suits would eventually be dismissed on statuatory grounds, the costs of getting to that point could still be substantial in attorneys' fees.

Half.com has "Maui Revealed" "like new" as low as $3.33 plus shipping.


Not the current edition though. It seems most current editions are ~$10.50 or mimimum shipped. I personally find it easier to use a 30% off coupon from Border's (check out the s.p.a.m. forum) and get it in hand when you want it for about the same price. (Assuming you have a Border's that has it).

Not the current edition though. It seems most current editions are ~$10.50 or mimimum shipped. I personally find it easier to use a 30% off coupon from Border's (check out the s.p.a.m. forum) and get it in hand when you want it for about the same price. (Assuming you have a Border's that has it).
Costcos in Hawaii usually have it for $9.99. And there's a Costco right by Kahului Airport. :)

Not the current edition though. It seems most current editions are ~$10.50 or mimimum shipped. I personally find it easier to use a 30% off coupon from Border's (check out the s.p.a.m. forum) and get it in hand when you want it for about the same price. (Assuming you have a Border's that has it).

You're right. My goof.

I think these books have value - but many of its suggestions are only for experienced, knowledgable visitors who understand the risks involved and are willing to accept those risks without blaming others when things go wrong.

When things do go wrong, however, the surviving family members and their attorneys tend to take a different POV.

When things do go wrong, however, the surviving family members and their attorneys tend to take a different POV.

Second person to bring this up ... so as I asked before (see post #21), can you point to some cases? I'm just wondering how real these lawsuit risks are ...

Anybody can sue anybody anytime, we all know that.

When somebody tragically dies accidentally, their survivors' attorneys, more often than not, bring suit.

Another tourist drowned on the Big Island, yesterday. 19 years old. Exploring the pahoe'hoe, in Puna, where only opihi should be.

We're not attorney's. We don't cite cases. We are, however, burdened and troubled and saddened every time our EMS must be activated to perform these remote and highly dangerous rescues and recoveries that are occurring more and more.

When somebody tragically dies accidentally, their survivors' attorneys, more often than not, bring suit.

What is this based on? This is commonly presented as an argument why people should not be able to access public lands through private lands. I'm wondering how real of an argument it is. Any such suits would make the press. I'm not asking for a legal brief. I can find a case where the owners of a B&B paid $1 million to the survivors of a guest who died falling off a 300' cliff on their property, but none against landowners who didn't charge.

You can't protect people from themselves. Landowners should be protected from others' actions on their land and there appears to be a law that does that. I'm just curious if that law works or not, since you and others seem to think it doesn't.

Let's get real. The EMT's, helicopter pilots, scuba divers, jet-skiers, searchers and their dogs don't need to be called from their beds and dinners and families and jobs to recover bodies from the ocean in horrible, dangerous, life-threatening conditions.

Screw the lawyers.

Costcos in Hawaii usually have it for $9.99. And there's a Costco right by Kahului Airport. :)

I know, but I love to read through the book prior to leaving to plan and to get excited about visiting paradise :cool:

Let's get real. The EMT's, helicopter pilots, scuba divers, jet-skiers, searchers and their dogs don't need to be called from their beds and dinners and families and jobs to recover bodies from the ocean in horrible, dangerous, life-threatening conditions.

Screw the lawyers.

So are you saying we should close off the oceans? :confused: The Revealed books are not about access to the oceans, something the state of Hawaii and Hawaiians have worked hard (and continue to work) to keep accessible to the public.

I did, BTW, find one case about private landowners being sued. A Hawaiian family sued the condo owner where they live and their child died in some natural pools.

So who should and shouldn't be allowed to use land since suing is clearly not unique to tourists?

We're excited to welcome you. Please be super-careful when enjoying the more remote locations listed in the book.

Rescue attempts can turn into recovery operations in a heartbeat.

So are you saying we should close off the oceans? :confused:

How in the heck could you possibly infer something as bizarre as the above quote from anything I have posted on the subject?

How in the heck could you possibly infer something as bizarre as the above quote from anything I have posted on the subject?

You wrote ... (bolding mine)

"Let's get real. The EMT's, helicopter pilots, scuba divers, jet-skiers, searchers and their dogs don't need to be called from their beds and dinners and families and jobs to recover bodies from the ocean in horrible, dangerous, life-threatening conditions. "

Exactly.

Let's save it (EMS) for natural disasters and acts of God.

EMS: Not for use by vacationers. Enjoy your vacation.

Exactly.

Let's save it (EMS) for natural disasters and acts of God.

Not for use by vacationers. Enjoy your vacation.

You've lost me. So no one should use the oceans?

Not sure how you turned this around from my lawsuit question to this topic, but whatever.

FWIW, I don't believe people who get themselves into trouble because of their own negligence/ignorance/etc. should cause others to risk their lives trying to save them. This doesn't just happen in Hawaii though; it happens everywhere.

You've lost me. So no one should use the oceans?

Here's the deal:

There are proven safe, and proven less safe areas to use the ocean. The remote a'a and pahoe'hoe outcroppings, with directions from Revealed, tend towards dangerous.

BE CAREFUL.

EMS: Not for use by vacationers! - God willing!

Don't put yourself in the position to activate EMS when you're on holiday.

FWIW, I don't believe people who get themselves into trouble because of their own negligence/ignorance/etc. should cause others to risk their lives trying to save them.

In your opinion it shouldn't.

But it does. It happens all the time. That's the point.

And more since the Revealed series.

kaukau: OK, we would have agreed about a lot of things way back on page 1, but none of this is why we got into our discussion. What triggered that was your comments in post 26.

So that puts me back where I started. Does anyone know of cases where a private property owner faced a lawsuit because of these books? It's seems a fairly common argument against the books.

Here's a young man dead because of a hike he took from Maui Revealed: http://mauinews.com/news/2008/1/25/07orem0125.html

Deep condolences to those affected.

I love this book and have used it to find less used interesting places, but how do I know when deciding to visit a recommended place if it is private property or not? Obviously some places are marked, but I am guessing some aren't. I hate people to trespass on my property, so I sure wouldn't want to be a trespassor.

I love this book and have used it to find less used interesting places, but how do I know when deciding to visit a recommended place if it is private property or not?......

In this case, there is a sign on the locked gate one must climb over to do this hike that reads: "Private Property. No Trespassing".

:(

Deepest condolences to all those mourning the death of this young visitor.

In this case, there is a sign on the locked gate one must climb over to do this hike that reads: "Private Property. No Trespassing".


Sorry,
I didn't mean to leave that quote attached to my question. That was not appropriate. I also send my thoughts and prayers to these families.

The revealed books are fabulous and written by a local.

The books do not cause anyones misfortune or death, it is the individual that makes a decision to do something without the proper forthought or training or equipment to do what they plan on doing.

What I find really funny (or odd) is that in the US the land of the free and individual liberty, the indivudual always tries to blame someone else instead of looking in the mirror.

These deaths are unfortunate but the blame will usually rest on the individual for doing something that exceeds their abilities and it has nothing to do with the book.

The books offer plenty of warnings throughout.

..........The books offer plenty of warnings throughout.

I'm sure that will be of great comfort to the deceased's family in their time of mourning.

I'm sure that will be of great comfort to the deceased's family in their time of mourning.

No it won't be but the individual made their own choice to do something, the books author had ZERO responsibility in the individuals free choice to do somehting that they were not capable of doing.

I'm sure that will be of great comfort to the deceased's family in their time of mourning.

Isn't the appropriate response that the deceased died doing what they wanted to do? We are all going to die. You can die exploring and testing your limits, or you can die at a Starbucks drinking proletariat coffee. There are no prizes for simply living a long time.

R.I.P.

It's a dangerous....not a safe, hike; and nobody cares that it's on private property with a locked gate posted "Private Property - No Trespassing" that you gotta climb over, right? Locals do it. It's in Maui revealed: with a warning. I've done it; why shouldn't you?

Yeah, I've trespassed too.

Done the hike twice. Saw the same thing happen to a companion: slip down a greasy red-dirt trail: but they didn't crack their head and die. And I don't think that's how they wanted to go out. So I don't know what to tell ya.

It's a very dangerous hike, and should not be done in the rainy season. Does it say that in the book?

More people; more accidents; no stopping progress.

Aloha Kakou

kaukau,

People are going to what they are going to do; it is really hard to keep people form themselves if you know what I mean. So far this year 8 people have been killed by avalanches here in Colorado in the backcountry. According to the experts, none of them should have been where they were with conditions as they were at the time. Avoidable tragedies, but again you can only warm people so much.

kaukau,

People are going to what they are going to do; it is really hard to keep people form themselves if you know what I mean. So far this year 8 people have been killed by avalanches here in Colorado in the backcountry. According to the experts, none of them should have been where they were with conditions as they were at the time. Avoidable tragedies, but again you can only warm people so much.

Roger that.

Let's not have anything bad happen to our fellow FlyerTalkers, though; if we can avoid it!

Cheers!

Aloha Kakou!

Isn't the appropriate response that the deceased died doing what they wanted to do? We are all going to die. You can die exploring and testing your limits, or you can die at a Starbucks drinking proletariat coffee. There are no prizes for simply living a long time.

Nope. The deceased didn't die doing what he wanted to do. The deceased wanted to be a minister. He was a new, 22 year-old enrolee in a Bible College.

He died as a trespasser on private property. Way too young; with lots of unfinished business, and great potential now unfulfilled. He most certainly didnt want to die alone in a miserable steep valley on Maui; his corpse helicoptered out by emergency personnel risking their lives in a recovery. So I disagree with your platitudes 100%.

Peace; out.

Aloha Kakou.

We ( me,wife and 3 yr old girl) are planning to visit Maui during the Easter holidays ( Mar 19 - 23) for 4 nights. I just started planning for this. Note that this is my first visit to Hawaii. I am thinking how should I go about planning this. We live in LA.

The title of thread drew me to it. Should I get the book for $11 shipped with Amazon prime? Is it worth it? Or should I goto AAA and get some of the boiler plate books/maps.

We ( me,wife and 3 yr old girl) are planning to visit Maui during the Easter holidays ( Mar 19 - 23) for 4 nights. I just started planning for this. Note that this is my first visit to Hawaii. I am thinking how should I go about planning this. We live in LA.

The title of thread drew me to it. Should I get the book for $11 shipped with Amazon prime? Is it worth it? Or should I goto AAA and get some of the boiler plate books/maps.

I think it costs more than that at Costco Kahului.

Don't do anything stupid with that little girl of yours based on bad information from it, please!

I am a some what regular visitor to Hawaii with my family (6 trips in 10 years). We would go more often if we could afford it. Other than the first trip when I was not aware of the Wizard Publications guide books (maybe they weren't available back in 1998, I don't remember), I have always used them and found them to be very helpful. All guide books should be used as just that, a guide. They are not a substitute for good sense and good manners. I.e. don't do something stupid and don't trespass where you don't belong.

Over the pass couple of years, I have seen a rising number of complaints about the "Blue Books" on Flyertalk. In general I think they are getting an undeserved bad rap. The one thing I do find disturbing is that there are more complaints about hikes and adventures actually being on private property. The author's shouldn't be sending people to private property unless the owners have explicitly given their permission for them to do so. Bottom line for me, eliminate any of the suggested activities that may be on private property, evaluate the safety of the activity on my own (including seeking local advice if I am not qualified to make a judgment on my own), and hope I don't unknowingly wind up trespassing.

One final thought, since many of the truly public places are not marked well, it is sometimes difficult to tell if you're on public or private property. On the other hand, one of the charms of Hawaii is that there are still many undeveloped areas. I don't have a good solution to propose for always being able to determine if you're on public verses private property. When in doubt, err on the side of caution and assume it is private.

Aloha,

Jon

One final thought, since many of the truly public places are not marked well, it is sometimes difficult to tell if you're on public or private property.

Actually, it very easy: On Maui, it's ALL private property. Unless you are in a National, State, County Park or on the beach ....... it's all private property.

Huge tracts of undeveloped land, owned by large corporations: East Maui Irrigation; Maui Land and Pineapple; Haleakala Ranch, for example, on Maui.

Nope. The deceased didn't die doing what he wanted to do. The deceased wanted to be a minister. He was a new, 22 year-old enrolee in a Bible College.

He died as a trespasser on private property. Way too young; with lots of unfinished business, and great potential now unfulfilled. He most certainly didnt want to die alone in a miserable steep valley on Maui; his corpse helicoptered out by emergency personnel risking their lives in a recovery. So I disagree with your platitudes 100%.

Peace; out.

Aloha Kakou.

kaukau - so you mean to say that someone forced this person to go on this trail? I think not, they did on their own choosing as you said in another thread that is applicable here "At some point "personal responsibility" comes into play"

I really wonder if those that criticize have actually read the book. For example, the section on adventures starts "Some of the activities described below are for the serious adventurer. ... We are assuming that if you consider any of them that you are a person of sound judgement, capable of assessing risks. All adventures carry risks of one kind or another. Our descriptions below do not attempt to convey all risks associated with an activity. These activities are not for everyone. Good preparation is essential. In the end it comes down to good judgement."

For the Four Falls of Na'ili'ili-haele (which I think is the place but not certain) it states "The trail is on EMI land...Locals have simple been using the trail for years without a problem, but we will leave it up to you to secure permission from them [EMI]."

Now I am not certain that this is the place mentioned earlier, but this is just a small example of the warnings that are in the book about makeing sure you are competent and qulaified to do the activity, understand the risks, use good judgement, get permission from the land owner, etc...

It all comes down to a person taking responsibility for ones action, even if you are not around to do so after you did your action. Sad but true.

kaukau - so you mean to say that someone forced this person to go on this trail? I think not, they did on their own choosing as you said in another thread that is applicable here "At some point "personal responsibility" comes into play"

Don't put words in my waha! ;)

If I die over this lap-top, I didn't die "doing what I loved doing". That takes place in the bedroom! :p

Here's the deal: alot of the stuff in Maui Revealed is stuff that folks on Maui did and do knowing it's wrong and dangerous. Get it? "Ho brah! My faddah works fo' East Maui Irrigation: he told me where dere one lava tube where one waterfall empties into one puka! I take you next Saturday; No tell nobody!!! It's on Kapu land! Ssshhhhhh!!!!!!" Ya see - or not?

Anyway, the book comes along and - I guess - makes it out like these are established "hikes" on "trails" that "anyone can do"; like it's the Appalachian Trail or something......and it's not.

The stuff is decidedly not safe......not anything like an actual hiking trail. But folks now treat it like a series of attractions at Disneyland.

I'm still confused by your statement "...so you mean to say someone forced this person to go on this trail?" Care to explain?

And you know what: The EMS rescue/recovery team doesn't go out on these missions "of their own choosing". Capisce? I'm sure they'd rather choose to stay home. They risk their lives to deal with people who have made mistakes. Unnecessary mistakes. There are consequences when people decide to do risky things. Consequences for others that they selfishly never considered.

But whatever, be careful!

I really wonder if those that criticize have actually read the book. For example, the section on adventures starts......It all comes down to a person taking responsibility for ones action, even if you are not around to do so after you did your action. Sad but true.

All you - like the book - have provided is lip service: Noboby gets permission from the landowner. No landowner would ever grant permission to those who asked; Nobody files a hike plan with EMS, because the hike is illegal; Nobody posts a bond with EMS to pay for the rescue/recovery mission.

Ya know the appeal of these "activities? They're "free"!!

Yup: you heard me. Parasailing costs $. Jetskiing costs $. Back-country off-road ATV adventure tours costs $. A helicopter ride costs $. Ziplining costs $. Horseback riding costs $. Professionally guided hikes by Hike Maui cost $. But for $11 bucks we can buy a book that has dozens of "secret activities" that we can do FOR FREE!!!!!! Yippee!!!!!!!

One day the EMS is goonna accompany each R & R mission with a bill for $35,000 for "services rendered".

Here's a young man dead because of a hike he took from Maui Revealed:

To Kaukau - The Maui News does not do very good research and you may not have a copy of the guidebook either.

The hike the young man died on was the "commando hike" it is not and never has been listed in any copy or edition of Maui Revealed.

I also agree, it is a very sad accident, indeed. But I also agree with the fact that books do not kill people. If you get hit by a car driving down a road - should all maps be banned from publication, too?

People should adventure, it is what life is all about, but they should also know their limits.

........If you get hit by a car driving down a road - should all maps be banned from publication, too?

People should adventure, it is what life is all about, but they should also know their limits.

Welcome to FlyerTalk, camsdad!

1.) If a map keeps leading people down roads where they consistently get lost, injured, and require rescuing, would you say "That's a great map?"

2.) "People should know their limits" How about recognizing "No Trespassing/ Private Property" signs as the first hint that they're overstepping their limits?

All you - like the book - have provided is lip service: Noboby gets permission from the landowner. No landowner would ever grant permission to those who asked ...

I have asked permission from landowners on a few Hawaiian islands and have received it with no problems - not for this hike, which I've never done - but for others.

Further, I'm sure you are well aware there are plenty of places where people have put fences on public property. Just because "No Trespassing" signs are posted or fences or up doesn't mean they were put there rightfully. And that's not unique to Hawaii.

I do think it appears this latest death is misplaced on this thread. This hike is apparently not listed in any edition of 'Maui Revealed'.

I have asked permission from landowners on a few Hawaiian islands and have received it with no problems - not for this hike, which I've never done - but for others.

Further, I'm sure you are well aware there are plenty of places where people have put fences on public property. Just because "No Trespassing" signs are posted or fences or up doesn't mean they were put there rightfully. And that's not unique to Hawaii.

I do think it appears this latest death is misplaced on this thread. This hike is apparently not listed in any edition of 'Maui Revealed'.


You are the rare exception, l'etoile, and a good egg to boot.

Wow- Maui Revealed just got wind of a "hike" they overlooked in their last edition. Look for it in the next!

Fact is: Wet, slick, treacherous muddy trails in the middle of nowhere with no cell phone service that you can slip, fall, and get hurt or killed on, and requiring access by helicopter in the event of an accident on kapu land are not limited to the "commando hike" that took the life of this visitor. Word up.

Fellow FTers: you watch your okoles when you start venturing into the outback on Maui, yeah?





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Don't put words in my [I]waha[I/]

I am not in thread on Target thread post #18 you wrote

What's your point? That's 90% insured! The rest of the country can't insure anyone, and we've got 90% insured!!!! We should show the rest of the country how to run itself!

At some point "personal responsibility" comes into play. Work less than 20 hours a week? Work a few more. Work for a small company? Get a job with a bigger one. Self employed? That's a choice.

90% of our people have health insurance!!!!! That is FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!

So no words put anywhere they came directly from you

If I die over this lap-top, I didn't die "doing what I loved doing". That takes place in the bedroom! :p

Here's the deal: alot of the stuff in Maui Revealed is stuff that folks on Maui did and do knowing it's wrong and dangerous. Get it? "Ho brah! My faddah works fo' East Maui Irrigation: he told me where dere one lava tube where one waterfall empties into one puka! I take you next Saturday; No tell nobody!!! It's on Kapu land! Ssshhhhhh!!!!!!" Ya see - or not?

Anyway, the book comes along and - I guess - makes it out like these are established "hikes" on "trails" that "anyone can do"; like it's the Appalachian Trail or something......and it's not.

The stuff is decidedly not safe......not anything like an actual hiking trail. But folks now treat it like a series of attractions at Disneyland.


That is so true, I do not disagree with you at all, excdept the book does not make it out as "Disneyland" it quite clearly says there is risk and it is for experienced folk.


I'm still confused by your statement "...so you mean to say someone forced this person to go on this trail?" Care to explain?

It was said earlier that "The deceased didn't die doing what he wanted to do", if he did not want to do it someone coerced him. Perhaps he also loved hiking, the article does not refernce this - I do nt know it is just a possibility

And you know what: The EMS rescue/recovery team doesn't go out on these missions "of their own choosing". Capisce? I'm sure they'd rather choose to stay home. They risk their lives to deal with people who have made mistakes. Unnecessary mistakes. There are consequences when people decide to do risky things. Consequences for others that they selfishly never considered.

But whatever, be careful!

The EMS peopel everywhere deserve more recognition than they get. However, I beleive for the most part that they do do what they do because it is their passion. No they do not relish having to rescure someone or put out fires, or clean up after a car wreck, they are doing it because they want to use their skills to help others. Thank God for that!

But whatever, be careful!

Always, I know my limits and they donot involve going on a narrow trail that is slippery, I will stick with the beach.

I am not in thread on Target thread post #18 you wrote
So no words put anywhere they came directly from you

You misunderstand. I was responding to your statement 'Nobody forced this guy to go on the hike".

I don't make the connection between taking "personal responsibility for working and making a living and getting health insurance" and "forcing someone to go on a hike", but that's cool.

Here's the gig: Personal responsibility with regards to the hike he died on:

Did not heed "No Trespassing/Private Property/Keep Out" signage. "Irresponsible"

Did not have proper safety equipment. "Irresponsible"

Did not assemble a team that could extract themselves. "Highly Irresponsible"

No emergency plan: (hike out to cell phone coverage and call 911 is not a plan - it's a default) "Irresponsible"

Endangered the lives of our EMS personnel, and took them away from their other duties to recover his dead body "Sadly Irresponsible".

Made no arrangements to reimburse the County and State for the expense we incurred. My tax dollars preferably spent on schools: "Expensively irresponsible"

All the people he could have ministered to if he had completed his course of studies and will never have his help: "Selfishly Irresponsible"

^Rant off!^

See you for some Primos on da beach!

R.I.P.

It's a dangerous....not a safe, hike; and nobody cares that it's on private property with a locked gate posted "Private Property - No Trespassing" that you gotta climb over, right? Locals do it. It's in Maui revealed: with a warning. I've done it; why shouldn't you?...

kaukau, do I understand correctly that you claimed that this hike was in Maui Revealed, and now you admit that it never was? If so, that's a lot of blame you've asserted and withdrawn.

kaukau, do I understand correctly that you claimed that this hike was in Maui Revealed, and now you admit that it never was? If so, that's a lot of blame you've asserted and withdrawn.

http://mauinews.com/news/2008/1/25/07orem0125.html

My reading of Maui Revealed is limited to killing time at Costco as Mrs. k shops, rolling my eyes at the out-of-date and incorrect info, and seeing tourists on the beach reading it, and me asking "Hey, lemme see that for a sec will ya?" What do I need to read/own/buy it for? I could have written it, if I felt like it! And better, too. (Stick tongue out!) There's nothing in it I, my wife, and our friends don't know, and tons of stuff we know about but isn't in it!

The Maui News reported the death scene as a location published in the book.....and frankly, it really doesn't make a difference one way or another, because the location is no different than any other "secret spot" revealed in "Maui Revealed": what once was a wide spot in the road you had to drive by twice to find because you always missed it the first time, is now evidenced by the dozen vehicles lined up on the side of the road by the gate posted "No Trespassing/Private Property".

Oh well. Have fun. Watch your okole!

...dozen vehicles lined up on the side of the road by the gate posted "No Trespassing/Private Property"....

It seems to me that there are separate issues here, with a little overlap. There's brazen trespassing, and then there's sending people out to trespass in a way that is dangerous to their health and safety. I don't defend either of these, but the second is obviously a much bigger concern.

If Maui Revealed is doing either of these, have the property owners asked the authors to pull the hikes from their pages? Of course, it's trespassing either way, but it would seem prudent for the property owners to request the removal of these unauthorized hikes from the book in the next edition.

Kaukau,

The Commando Hike is not and never has been in any edition of Maui Revealed. I have every one and looked. So you could not have ever "read" it there as you have said prior.

But it is listed all over the Net - so maybe the young man read about it there or maybe one of his friends was a local or knew a local who knew the hike.

Bottom line is this...nothing in a guidebook or a newspaper or on the Net "killed anyone" - ever. They chose to take actions themselves - of their own free will.

I like to think most people are not so stupid as they can not assess their own danger and risk. I take risks every time I get on plane and I get on a lot of them.

People die doing "perfectly reasonable" activities - like crossing the street, for example. People die and get hurt every day - every place in the world.

The article that next day in the Maui News said - the young man "was having the time of his life on Maui". Unfortunately - it was the last time he had.

The new edition of Maui Revealed doesn't list places on private land that I can see but it does list adventures and I personally choose what I like to do or what I feel is safe and reasonable for me.

The good thing about hiking (for me) is I can turn around if it is too tough for me. I'm pretty afraid of the ocean - so I only swim where and when it's flat. But my friends love to surf...but I leave that to them.

It sounds to me like you just want tourists to sit on the beach in front of their hotel, but that just isn't tourism for most people.

Maybe MAUI being named best island by Conde Naste so many years is what caused the Maui boom (that and 9/11) and now has all the Maui residents up in arms - that - and maybe developers, time shares and illegal vacation rentals.

But without all the tourists Hawaii's economy "may" cave in on itself. So roll up the beaches and just send everyone back where they came from - eh, brah?

Aloha!

Kaukau,

The Commando Hike is not and never has been in any edition of Maui Revealed. I have every one and looked. So you could not have ever "read" it there as you have said prior.........

Never said "I read it in Maui Revealed"!!!!. (Not that it matters!) I was quoting the Maui News. Here's the article: http://mauinews.com/news/2008/1/25/07orem0125.html

He died on a slippery red-dirt trail, no different than all the other hikes listed in Maui Revealed or not, not unique to the "commando hike", and a danger to all who venture off the beaten path, especially in the rainy season.

Have fun on Maui, and watch your okole if you go into the outback!

P.S. Most, if not all back-country adventuress are safer and better undertaken in the DRY Season, not the RAINY SEASON.

Aloha Kakou!




************************************************** **********************

Bottom line is this...nothing in a guidebook or a newspaper or on the Net "killed anyone" - ever. They chose to take actions themselves - of their own free will.

*****Then we'll stop sending out EMS teams to rescue the victims and recover the corpses. That's not our "Free Will". We're forced to do it.********

I like to think most people are not so stupid as they can not assess their own danger and risk. I take risks every time I get on plane and I get on a lot of them.

********It's got nothing to do with 'stupid'. Visitors don't have the "local knowledge" about recent rainfall, tide changes, ocean surge, flash floods, seasonal phenomena etc., etc. that can make a fun hike one day a killer the next!!!!!***********

People die doing "perfectly reasonable" activities - like crossing the street, for example. People die and get hurt every day - every place in the world.

******That doesn't require sending our EMS on life threatening helicopter extractions into remote dangerous terrain.********


The article that next day in the Maui News said - the young man "was having the time of his life on Maui". Unfortunately - it was the last time he had.

******The first thing you posted that made real sense.*******


The new edition of Maui Revealed doesn't list places on private land that I can see but it does list adventures and I personally choose what I like to do or what I feel is safe and reasonable for me.

***********Have fun!*********

The good thing about hiking (for me) is I can turn around if it is too tough for me. I'm pretty afraid of the ocean - so I only swim where and when it's flat. But my friends love to surf...but I leave that to them.

********Can't turn back from a flash flood!!!! Do you know we get 'em ALOT?*********

It sounds to me like you just want tourists to sit on the beach in front of their hotel, but that just isn't tourism for most people.

********Sounds to me that you don't really pay attention: "Parasailing, Jetskiing, Ziplining, Horsebackriding, Helicopter tours, back-country ATV adventures and professionally-led hikes by HIKE MAUI" are just some of the activities I've recommended to tourists in this thread!!!!!***********


But without all the tourists Hawaii's economy "may" cave in on itself. So roll up the beaches and just send everyone back where they came from - eh, brah?

OK, now pay attention: The activities I mentioned above COST MONEY! When tourists patronize these LOCALLY RUN BUSINESSES and partake in the PROFESSIONALLY MANAGED activities they provide, then the tourists SPEND MONEY and HELP THE HAWAIIAN ECONOMY AND LOCAL BUSINESSES!!! When they hike off-road, unsupervised, unaware of the ecological and financial consequences of their intrusions, following directions from an innacurate and incomplete source, they do NOTHING to further help our economy, and in addition serve to TAX OUR RESOURCES by spreading alien invasive species like MICONIA, and deplete our finances with EXPENSIVE EMS RESCUES AND RECOVERIES!!!

Capisce?

"Parasailing, Jetskiing, Ziplining, Horsebackriding, Helicopter tours, back-country ATV adventures and professionally-led hikes by HIKE MAUI" are just some of the activities I've recommended to tourists in this thread!!!!!***********

Interestingly, not one of those things sound like fun to me. I found the hike in question on YouTube and it sounded interesting, right up until the 30 ft. cliff-dive into a pool. No way would I do that unless I've personally checked out the water depth.

Interestingly, not one of those things sound like fun to me. I found the hike in question on YouTube and it sounded interesting, right up until the 30 ft. cliff-dive into a pool. No way would I do that unless I've personally checked out the water depth.

The 30' jump is the first of three; further up is a 50'; even further up is the third and 70' jump. A friend's wife broke her back on the 30'er.

Watch your okole!

By the way: both HIKE MAUI and MAUI ATV ADVENTURES will take you to lava tubes, waterfalls and high dive spots that are supervised, safe, reliable and beautiful.....even dare I say better than the "commando hike". But you probably don't want to pay the money; nor recreate in a supervised environment in spots that aren't "secret" and "known only by the locals". :rolleyes:

Watch your okole!

OK, now pay attention: The activities I mentioned above COST MONEY! When tourists patronize these LOCALLY RUN BUSINESSES and partake in the PROFESSIONALLY MANAGED activities they provide, then the tourists SPEND MONEY and HELP THE HAWAIIAN ECONOMY AND LOCAL BUSINESSES!!! When they hike off-road, unsupervised, unaware of the ecological and financial consequences of their intrusions, following directions from an innacurate and incomplete source, they do NOTHING to further help our economy, and in addition serve to TAX OUR RESOURCES by spreading alien invasive species like MICONIA, and deplete our finances with EXPENSIVE EMS RESCUES AND RECOVERIES!!!

Capisce?

Wow touched a nerve - sorry!

Those "cost money activities" you mention, they kill a lot of people every year. You can even read about it in the Maui News.

Like downhill biking - helicopters - SCUBA, etc. Sounds like you must work for one of the companies or something.

Anyway, tourists bring in PLENTY of money...from taxes and enjoying all the stuff you mentioned - as well as hotels and restaurants, etc. Without them, there wouldn't be much work for Maui residents, as many are tied to that industry - like all the companies you mention - for example and restaurants, galleries, hotels, etc.

Thanks for the tips on flash floods, they happen where I live, too. "Act of God" not act of guidebook or newspaper. Besides they mention flash floods in the guidebook I have. I don't think you can stop people from adventuring on Maui or anyplace else for that matter. I think most guidebooks do a good job of explaining stuff like that if people read the books.

I think we both want people to be safe - there are NO guarantees on it though - even if you PAY money to have that adventure.

How did we jumped to invasive species? It sounds to me like you just don't like anyone coming to Maui - period.

Wow touched a nerve - sorry!

Those "cost money activities" you mention, they kill a lot of people every year. You can even read about it in the Maui News.

Like downhill biking - helicopters - SCUBA, etc. Sounds like you must work for one of the companies or something.

******NEGATIVE******

Anyway, tourists bring in PLENTY of money...from taxes and enjoying all the stuff you mentioned - as well as hotels and restaurants, etc. Without them, there wouldn't be much work for Maui residents, as many are tied to that industry - like all the companies you mention - for example and restaurants, galleries, hotels, etc.

Thanks for the tips on flash floods, they happen where I live, too. "Act of God" not act of guidebook or newspaper. Besides they mention flash floods in the guidebook I have. I don't think you can stop people from adventuring on Maui or anyplace else for that matter.

*************Not trying to. Trying to open your eyes to the real Maui: not the "secret Maui only the 'locals know'" :rolleyes: ***************

I think most guidebooks do a good job of explaining stuff like that if people read the books.

I think we both want people to be safe - there are NO guarantees on it though - even if you PAY money to have that adventure.

********APPROVED OSHA EMERGENCY CONTINGENCY PLANS ARE IN PLACE, WITH FIRST AID AND EMERGENCY SUPPLIES AT HAND! No "Help!!! Call 911 and get a fix on my cell phone"************

How did we jumped to invasive species? It sounds to me like you just don't like anyone coming to Maui - period.

***********Just you showing your ignorance of Maui, again. The spreading of invasive species, especially MICONIA, is the single biggest threat to Maui's watershed; and the biggest culprit spreading the plant are back-country tourists, who unwittingly are spreading it all over the island: from East Maui back to West Maui, to South Maui to the North Shore. That costs us more to control than the rescue and recovery missions!***********Gotta admit: NOT TOO MANY TOURISTS GIVE A RAT'S A$$ ABOUT THE HEALTH OF OUR WATERSHED!!!!!************



You strike me as a rather selfish person, camsdad, only interested in what you want to do, not paying attention to, or caring about, the needs of Maui in 2008 and beyond! Your first 3 posts on FlyerTalk are only to proclaim and complain that you want to do whatever it is you want to do when you visit, and that you have some sort of inherent right to do whatever is written in the pages of some guidebook, because it's written there, without any regard for your impact here. I bet you're pretty Green and Carbon Neutral wherever you live. Why not consider your impact here while you're on vacation?

You're all welcome on Maui; and there's way more to know about your impact here than is printed in the pages of Maui Revealed. That's why FlyerTalk is such a good resource for sharing information!

Maui is not the only place in the world that has over development and problems. Maybe you need to get off the rock more, Kaukau.

You think I sound selfish? You are the one telling people we don't know how to travel or how to be respectful of a place we visit. You don't know any of our experiences. You sound like a over zealous Maui transplant from the mainland. If you are such an expert - go write a book.

You make way too many incoherent leaps of topics for me. Safe hiking is all we started on. You must love conspiracy theories.

easy, brah.... aloha.

Maui is not the only place in the world that has over development and problems. Maybe you need to get off the rock more, Kaukau.

******We go Vegas once a month!!!!******** :D

You think I sound selfish? You are the one telling people we don't know how to travel or how to be respectful of a place we visit. You don't know any of our experiences. You sound like a over zealous Maui transplant from the mainland. If you are such an expert - go write a book.

**********Don't need da money!************

You make way too many incoherent leaps of topics for me. Safe hiking is all we started on. You must love conspiracy theories.

***********Got ya thinkin' did I?*********

easy, brah.... aloha.


Aloha Kakou!

This thread is pau for the moment for a little cool down.

Let's all have a few pupus and chill :)

cblaisd
Co-Moderator, Hawai`i forum.