I was estatic that JetBLue was coming to PIT thinking the PIT to BOS fares would drop. Well it doesn't look like US is going to care that B6 is taking it's customers away.

I was shocked at the high fares that US is still demanding on the PIT to BOS route. For the time(s) and day(s) I need to fly for work they are still outrageous.

B6 wanted $198.60 while US wanted $788.60 for almost the identical times. And each segment is flying on the E170!! Now who's E170 do you think I'm really going to fly? It ain't Republic that's for sure, OPPS... USAirways Express!!

And after careful review of all available flights on US with connections in PHL, DCA or LGA the absolute lowest price I could get on US was still $281.90. But why bother connecting and ruining an entire day?


Looks like B6 is going to get a lot of business out of PIT from me until US starts to really match those fares. Ofcourse I could also fly PIT to PVD for only $220.00 on direct flights on RJ's. But I think I'll give B6 a chance this trip.

Looks like B6 is going to get a lot of business out of PIT from me until US starts to really match those fares. Ofcourse I could also fly PIT to PVD for only $220.00 on direct flights on RJ's. But I think I'll give B6 a chance this trip.

Well, maybe and maybe not. That's the crazy thing about this business -- there are a number of factors at play here that aren't addressed in the initial analysis.

For starters, you may be underestimating the percentage of high dollar travellers who travel this route a time or two a week and have all their expenses billed out to clients or their employers who are fiercely loyal to US or who wish to maintain their business with US for CP benefits, etc. Yes, it borders on the unethical, but it happens on every plane on every day of the year.

Additionally, US maintains a sizable connection base out of BOS to other, mostly smaller, destinations that Jet Blue doesn't. For example, destinations on the Cape or in Maine (such as Bar Harbor, Augusta, Presque Isle, etc). All of these locations require connections in BOS and US is the only player in these markets. In other words, it's important to remember that just b/c the plane flies from PIT to BOS with 55 pax on board doesn't mean that even half of them are flying to BOS as a final destination for the day.

I live in Portland, Maine, where Jet Blue just launched full A-319 service this year with 4 depatures daily. This is really big news for us. They offer us a real airline with new, sparkling planes, solid service, fresh attitudes, unbeatable on board IFE, lower fares in general, etc, etc, etc, and the market in Maine has responded weakly. Mind bogglingly, the US flights are still going out totally packed to the gills and as uncomfortable as ever. Jet Blue has already announced that loads in and out of PWM are not meeting expectations and that we will see a downsizing of aircraft to the E-190s within two months.

It's a sad commentary, but the Frequent Flier programs that we love to complain about are golden handcuffs for a lot of us. They cause us to be inappropriately loyal.

Actually, I suspect US is confident enough in their bookings not to have any inventory left in the bottom basement bucket that B6 is willing to fly you in.

Sadly, loyalty isn't worth much in the airline biz these days. If the airline can find someone willing to pay more for a ticket than you are, they will sell it to them.

Similarly, if you can buy a ticket on another carrier for less (especially for significantly less), you should buy it. This is obviously one of those situations.

Down the road, if I were to guess, JetBlue will take a bath on this route because most people will choose to remain loyal to US and earn their ff miles. Most of the seats B6 will sell are in the unprofitable cheapo buckets, while US will be able to sell at least some higher priced fares.

Well, maybe and maybe not. That's the crazy thing about this business -- there are a number of factors at play here that aren't addressed in the initial analysis.

For starters, you may be underestimating the percentage of high dollar travellers who travel this route a time or two a week and have all their expenses billed out to clients or their employers who are fiercely loyal to US or who wish to maintain their business with US for CP benefits, etc. Yes, it borders on the unethical, but it happens on every plane on every day of the year.

Additionally, US maintains a sizable connection base out of BOS to other, mostly smaller, destinations that Jet Blue doesn't. For example, destinations on the Cape or in Maine (such as Bar Harbor, Augusta, Presque Isle, etc). All of these locations require connections in BOS and US is the only player in these markets. In other words, it's important to remember that just b/c the plane flies from PIT to BOS with 55 pax on board doesn't mean that even half of them are flying to BOS as a final destination for the day.

I live in Portland, Maine, where Jet Blue just launched full A-319 service this year with 4 depatures daily. This is really big news for us. They offer us a real airline with new, sparkling planes, solid service, fresh attitudes, unbeatable on board IFE, lower fares in general, etc, etc, etc, and the market in Maine has responded weakly. Mind bogglingly, the US flights are still going out totally packed to the gills and as uncomfortable as ever. Jet Blue has already announced that loads in and out of PWM are not meeting expectations and that we will see a downsizing of aircraft to the E-190s within two months.

It's a sad commentary, but the Frequent Flier programs that we love to complain about are golden handcuffs for a lot of us. They cause us to be inappropriately loyal.

I was typing my answer when sbtinme's posted his excellent response. Given the concentration of US flyers in PIT and BOS, I expect the market to react even more tepidly to B6's new service -- especially since, as I recall, US added a bunch of new flights in response and has several more frequencies than B6 (biz travellers love frequencies!).

I myself have every reason to be loyal to US, as I'd like to keep my Gold Preferred status. But I find it challenging because, like in your situation, US's airfares are often substantially higher than its competitors. That's good for the airline; bad for the customer. You do what you need to do.

It's roughly what they COULD have done with WN rather than GoFares. If you're not loooking for B6, you don't find them. Not on Orbitz, Travelocity, Expedia, etc. Lots of folks won't even see the flights, so why bother to offer more than token fare competition? Not that this is a good idea, just what they might be thinking.

PIT might be a different situation, but on the RIC-NYC route, US is matching B6's fares day in, day out. And I'll take an exit row in an E145 and an arrival at LGA over the E190 and an arrival in JFK for a short flight like that.
Not to mention the fact that options are so limited with B6 in irregular ops, etc. If the E190 doesn't show for MX or other reasons at RIC, I'm screwed. If the E145 is late for whatever reason, I can connect through PIT, PHL, BOS and at least make it up to NYC albeit late.

I live in Portland, Maine, where Jet Blue just launched full A-319 service this year with 4 depatures daily. This is really big news for us. They offer us a real airline with new, sparkling planes, solid service, fresh attitudes, unbeatable on board IFE, lower fares in general, etc, etc, etc, and the market in Maine has responded weakly. Mind bogglingly, the US flights are still going out totally packed to the gills and as uncomfortable as ever. Jet Blue has already announced that loads in and out of PWM are not meeting expectations and that we will see a downsizing of aircraft to the E-190s within two months.

It's a sad commentary, but the Frequent Flier programs that we love to complain about are golden handcuffs for a lot of us. They cause us to be inappropriately loyal.

Sbt, I used to live in PWM and was a bartender at the Old Port Tavern many years ago. It's really too bad that people in PWM have not yet converted. I was on B6 twice in the last month between JFK and FLL and was blown away by it. Augusta, Bar Harbor, Rockland, and Presque Isle are a problem, though, and US is the only one who goes there now. 25 years ago DL ran 4 727's a day between PWM, BOS and PQI.

I was typing my answer when sbtinme's posted his excellent response. Given the concentration of US flyers in PIT and BOS, I expect the market to react even more tepidly to B6's new service -- especially since, as I recall, US added a bunch of new flights in response and has several more frequencies than B6 (biz travellers love frequencies!).

I myself have every reason to be loyal to US, as I'd like to keep my Gold Preferred status. But I find it challenging because, like in your situation, US's airfares are often substantially higher than its competitors. That's good for the airline; bad for the customer. You do what you need to do.

PIT--BOS is going to turn out much like PIT-PHL--US overpriced it so badly that the true numbers of people never really turned out until the price drops.

Also, the US stranglehold on PIT is not what it once was, at least the last time I passed thru town.

Now what I don't get is (save the capacity differential) how this is different from PIT-LGA. I'm LGA-PIT in a few weeks, and by booking waaay ahead of time there was no difference with B6. But, I just dummied a booking for later in the week and US is matching B6 at round $250 RT with only a 1 night sayover under a week out. Except for the prime time flights.

4 RT/day seems like decent frequencies to me, although I did not check the timing of the BOS flights. I will say this: if someone can justify a $200-->$800 difference on a comparable route between two airlines, please let me know: I want to short the stock and/or ensure my folks are not doing business with your folks (at least on my folks' dime).

But forget that. At 13 cents/mile (I'm guessing at to the current US CASM with fuel), that roundtrip from PIT-BOS only costs them about what, $130 before taxes? With that said, getting it for $300 at the last minute seems reasonable, don't you think? $788 is highway robbery.

I was surprised I got late July flights PIT/LGA for $163 total. The last time I went to NYC it was around $900 so I flew into EWR.

Just another anecdote for this one: we booked a PIT-BOS for early August sometime back in late May. We looked at B6 and wanted to try it but ended up going with US because the flight times at least at the lowest fares were more advantageous. Lowest fares were the same.

My guess (just as iahphx suggested) is they are still competing but you've picked days/times where the lowest fare buckets on US are all gone, but some are still available on B6. This suggests either lower loads on B6 or more seats in the lower bucket on B6. If this situation turns up enough, more people will look to B6 and perhaps they will be successful on this one.

PIT-BOS and PIT-NYC (as well as PIT-PHL) have been tried before, but it was mostly (and I think in BOS case only) with brand new poorly-capitalized airlines that depended upon such routes. US simply crushed them. They won't exactly be able to do that with B6, it seems to me. On the other hand, FL did try PIT-LGA (and PIT-MDW) a few years back and pulled out of those two leaving only the ATL flights. (I even flew a PIT-LGA roundtrip on them once.) WN is now doing PIT-MDW, but they offer more places to go onward from MDW than FL did, and they're doing PIT-PHL with those connections. B6 has places to go onward from JFK. And WN and now B6 have the advantage that US is not quite so entrenched here as it was even in the days just a few years ago of FL's tries at LGA and MDW. WN seems to be doing okay. I guess we'll see what happens. I'd like to see B6 succeed here and have them as a choice.

I flew the FL PIT to LGA trip a few times (pre FlyerTalk days when I used to just go with the cheapest ticket). I liked being able to upgrade to first class on 717's for $25 each way (reasonable price for a bigger seat plus 2 alcoholic drinks). I think what killed the route is they had a terrible gate at LGA (innermost near the terminal). Flight would always arrive in LGA early or on time and than spend 60 minutes taxiing to the gate due to ground congestion. There was also a second FL flight due at LGA just a bit before the PIT flight. It was always still at the gate compounding the problems. If FL had a better gate at LGA, I think the route would have succeeded. Now that I am a *A point slave, I will tend to fly UA when possible and US as second choice. I have relatives who live in NY and they already gave JetBlue a try for the last visit to PIT. I do think JetBlue stands a good chance of succeeding on this route.

--Jon

I'd like to see B6 succeed here and have them as a choice.


And that's exactly it. I want another choice. I played around on the US and B6 websites along with my online corporate travel website. B6 beat US's pants hands down on every situation I could come up with.

Maybe US has sold out of the lower priced seats, but where oh where is the rational airfares that the Sandcastle says is coming? You would think that US would be matching B6 until September since B6 just started flying out of PIT. But what do I know? I don't live in the weird world of airfare tomfoolery.

I am actually looking forward to trying out B6. I know that in inclement conditions I won't have the "luxury" of the US network to get me home to PIT. But lately the "luxury" hasn't been so nice. Especially with the storms in the northeast lately.

Plus 2 segments aren't going to kill my continued CP status with US. I can give some business to the competition.

Actually, I suspect US is confident enough in their bookings not to have any inventory left in the bottom basement bucket that B6 is willing to fly you in.

Sadly, loyalty isn't worth much in the airline biz these days. If the airline can find someone willing to pay more for a ticket than you are, they will sell it to them.

Similarly, if you can buy a ticket on another carrier for less (especially for significantly less), you should buy it. This is obviously one of those situations.

Down the road, if I were to guess, JetBlue will take a bath on this route because most people will choose to remain loyal to US and earn their ff miles. Most of the seats B6 will sell are in the unprofitable cheapo buckets, while US will be able to sell at least some higher priced fares.

Has it ever been any different? You live in the world's biggest consumer society.. the dollar is king. Why would US reduce its fares if the planes are still going out full? I fully understand the excitement over cheap fares, but if you can't earn any useful miles, can't connect to where you want to go etc., the big guys will grind the competition into the ground. If US pax want to pay higher fares for loyalty points, upgrades, international award flights etc, they will not waste their status by moving to JetBlue. They are deservedly successful, but if they try to compete in a market that does not suit their potential passengers needs and wants, they will fail. Simple economics.

Simple economics.

True it is simple economics, but prior to B6's arrival in PIT, any trip I had to make to the home office in BOS cost around $900-$1000.00. Unfortunately for me I can't push the cost of my trips onto my customers like some people can. So I have to find a reasonable way to get to BOS from PIT. Looks like it's B6 for me for a while even now.

Good thing I don't have to be in the office every week.

How much longer do you think B6 can continue to sustain such low fares? The airlines is slowly slipping into the red and high fuel prices are not helping. It sounds as though US is trying (successfully) to price their routes in a manner that at least attempts to make them profitable. B6 is shooting for market share. I'm actually somwhat shocked that US did not start PIT-JFK service in response to B6 as they are doing in CLT.

Personally, I have flown B6 once and that was enough. I loved the DirecTV but found the planes cramped and the seats extremely uncomfortable. I also did not like the loading from both ends thing. It's not a bad airline but I like the legacy carriers better.

Has it ever been any different? You live in the world's biggest consumer society.. the dollar is king. Why would US reduce its fares if the planes are still going out full? I fully understand the excitement over cheap fares, but if you can't earn any useful miles, can't connect to where you want to go etc., the big guys will grind the competition into the ground. If US pax want to pay higher fares for loyalty points, upgrades, international award flights etc, they will not waste their status by moving to JetBlue. They are deservedly successful, but if they try to compete in a market that does not suit their potential passengers needs and wants, they will fail. Simple economics.

Makes you wonder how Southwest ever survived without useful miles, going where you want to go, etc. Makes you wonder why US, DL, NW, and UA were bankrupt. Why until this year B6 was making money.

FT is perhaps not the best venue to say this--but most people are not going to pay more than a 10 or 15 percent premium for such things. Much less the 300 or so percent premium that the OP found from PIT-BOS.

I'm actually somwhat shocked that US did not start PIT-JFK service in response to B6 as they are doing in CLT.

US put a CRJ900 on that route. All other things being equal, if you find the E-190 uncomfortable, the CRJ900 is like a torture device.

Just got back from a $158 BOS-PIT roundtrip. It's more crowded than I have ever seen it. Missed the upgrade as a Gold on Friday evening but no problem on the Sunday night return. The 319 on Friday was completely full, the 320 on Sunday had 3 empties in coach. There is something satisfying about paying $79 each way to sit in First. If I did not have status, I would be trying JetBlue however.

Has anybody actually taken the B6 trip? How are the loads?

Parker believes (and has said publicly) that he thinks JetBlue is flawed, and time is his ally. He has successfully held his own with WN, and has seen AirTran have some issues with point to point services. Neeleman, who has built JetBlue from scratch (and, by the way is dyslexic, which shows you how much determination he must have) runs a different business, and has shown an ability to repair strategies from time to time, should get a little more respect. If I had an operation in what is arguably one of the best constructed hub airports in the world, and had reduced it to an Express station, I think I might take more notice of a guy with a solid product, far better positive brand recognition, and a lot of planes on order, operating from an airport (JFK) with very little room for expansion. Failure to respond to an incursion like this is somewhere between being careful with your yields and total arrogance. That kind of thinking was what allowed JetBlue to become the largest carrier between the Northeast and Florida.

Note to Warbo. It isn't economic imperialism. It's free market. That's why, when you go out to buy anything in the UK, no matter where you go, the price hardly varies. Conversely, thanks to an Irishman (and David Bonderman of Texas Pacific), you have Ryanair, and thanks to an enterprising guy from Greece, you have EasyJet, both of whom seem to find a lot of Brits who would travel to less convenient airports to save money. Then ask BA (whose original name, as I recall, was Imperial Airways) what happened to GO. Seems like it's harder to run a low cost business than it looks.

deelmakur as always has sharp acumen on this that I dont need to add to.

Just a few random comments. I havent been able to find any official data/etc, but the number of US elites in PIT has gone way down. We should see more evidence over the next month as the 2006 cards are fully delivered.

But my experience with the elite lines at PIT security over the last year is that the lines dont have anywhere near as many people in them (and lets face it, used to be all US). Further I havent had the time or nerve to ask the TSA elite card checker what the percent of elites from UA/CO/etc are in the mix now. Since obviously some of us have gotten comped or earned status on other airlines by now.

Anyway the reason I say this is that when you talk about loyalty, etc, as a factor in paying $600 more for a ticket.. PIT is a city where loyalty is fleeting (ask Tommy Maddox or Nabisco or any local restaurant that has the audacity to not use Heinz ketchup at the table). What might be true in other cities is not going to hold here... So I dont expect lots of people to take it on the chin for $600 when there's no way to upgrade, nothing useful to do with my miles, and no way to buy tickets or check my miles online.

Final note - BOS is a business market generally. It will be interesting to see how many business sustain $800 fares knowing $200 is available.

Any or all of these have me waiting to fly B6 the next time I need to go to BOS.