The once isolated and mysterious region of Tibet has just become accessible to the masses. That is either good or bad, depending on your perspective. But either way it will change Tibet.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060701/ap_on_re_as/china_tibet_railway

This should be a good thing for Tibet. It should bring in more investment and also give the people there more of an oportunity to be part of China's economic growth.

This should be a good thing for Tibet. It should bring in more investment and also give the people there more of an oportunity to be part of China's economic growth.

It might be an idea to use something other than China Daily as a source of information on this matter. The ethnic Tibetans would largely prefer to be able to make their own choices on links with China, and fear, quite rightly, an acceleration in the influx of Han Chinese and a further expansion of the policies that have already seen Lhasa trashed and Sinicized. The interest of the Beijing government in such a wildly expensive project has nothing to do with benefiting Tibetans, and everything to do with being able to get troops to Tibet at short notice, with extracting the region's mineral wealth, and with further diluting the local population with Han Chinese from elsewhere.

It's likely, however, that the line to Lhasa will turn into one of China's most popular tourist trips, perhaps overtaking the ersatz experience of the Three Gorges, and likely considerably more spectacular.

Peter N-H

It might be an idea to use something other than China Daily as a source of information on this matter. The ethnic Tibetans would largely prefer to be able to make their own choices on links with China, and fear, quite rightly, an acceleration in the influx of Han Chinese and a further expansion of the policies that have already seen Lhasa trashed and Sinicized. The interest of the Beijing government in such a wildly expensive project has nothing to do with benefiting Tibetans, and everything to do with being able to get troops to Tibet at short notice, with extracting the region's mineral wealth, and with further diluting the local population with Han Chinese from elsewhere.

It's likely, however, that the line to Lhasa will turn into one of China's most popular tourist trips, perhaps overtaking the ersatz experience of the Three Gorges, and likely considerably more spectacular.

Peter N-H

^ I'm with you on this one. This is not necessarily a good step and the
intentions of Chinese government are not in the best interest of Tibetans.

Wow. That's a pretty fast long distance train. It looks like it moves about 50ish MPH average. Does it stop at all?

It might be an idea to use something other than China Daily as a source of information on this matter. The ethnic Tibetans would largely prefer to be able to make their own choices on links with China, and fear, quite rightly, an acceleration in the influx of Han Chinese and a further expansion of the policies that have already seen Lhasa trashed and Sinicized.

i agree. in fact, i got in a heated argument with a chinese tourist in xinjiang recently who failed to grasp the point in question.

slightly off topic, one of my friends from school is currently attempting to launch a luxury train service in china and tibet is slated to be his first destination. google "rail partners" for more info.

I didn't intend to sound like a CCTV news broadcaster but romantic notions of Tibet aside, its largely an extremely poor place with extremely poor people that needs investment. Now it may be mostly the PRC's fault that it is a dump but this train should do nothing but help.

The book "The Long March" by two British guys who retraced the long march has some good points about Tibet. They mention how most of the native Tibetians are dirt poor but all the monks are fairly well fed and the temples all have gold plating and monks were everywhere soliciting donations from the poor native Tibetians. They say that their view of Tibet changed quite quickly from their romanticized version of it to seeing the actual reality.

I agree that Tibet should be able to be independent if they want to be but there ain't much of a chance of that happening in the near future and it seems that this train gives them a good chance to at least have a better life...not a bad thing when most people worry about eating rather than worrying about political questions.

I guess your view on the issue comes down to what is more important, development so that people can live above the poverty line or increased independence from basically a foreign power. I wish we could ask the Tibetans but CCTV wont run that poll any time soon so we don't know.

Now it may be mostly the PRC's fault that it is a dump but this train should do nothing but help.

It's not clear how importing further aliens in their thousands to open businesses and reap whatever economic benefits there may be, or how exporting mineral wealth for the benefit of an alien government and profit of alien entrepreneurs counts as 'nothing but help' for the indigenous population. (Nor, insofar as it helps the Party stay in power, is it doing much for the Han Chinese, either.)

Nor is the only alternative to the (falsely) romanticized Tibet the imposition of commerce on China's terms, rather than on Tibetan-arranged terms with the aim of benefiting Tibetans.

Peter N-H

I read this article: http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2006/07/02/chinas_1st_train_to_tibet_continues_west/

I would agree that most Tibetians would not see this as much as good thing as the Chinese government. As someone who visited Bejing and Shanghai last year I must admit I am interested in going back and seeing Tibet some day. Has anyone heard anything on what the cost will be for a ticket?

I have not seen fares published for this yet. But it is about a 2400 mile, 48-hour ride from Beijing. Also, foreign tourists must have a Tibet permit (TTB) before they can purchase a ticket.

I have not seen fares published for this yet. But it is about a 2400 mile, 48-hour ride from Beijing.

According to a recent posting on The Oriental-List, the trip from Beijing to Golmud is 2850km, and from Golmud to Lhasa is 1135km. Prices from Beijing are Y389/seat, Y814/hard sleeper, and Y1262/soft sleeper.

For the full timetable and other fares, see:

http://www.chinatt.org/Lhasa.htm

Peter N-H

Also, foreign tourists must have a Tibet permit (TTB) before they can purchase a ticket.

i noticed during my may travels that the train people started checking passports religiously, which i assume had something to do with the tibet service. (i wouldn't dream of bringing my passport on a shanghai-hangzhou run and the train attendents were understanding.)

in any case, i think the tibet permit is riduculous. my abc friends seem to be exempt from the requirement so i would like to be as well.

I would be grateful for any information/recommendations regarding how to book a sleeper on the new train from being to Lhasa.

Can anyone let me know the schedule?

Any recommendations regarding which way (Beijing/Lhasa or Lhasa/Beijing) to make the trip.

I would be grateful for any information/recommendations regarding how to book a sleeper on the new train from being to Lhasa.

Can anyone let me know the schedule?

Any recommendations regarding which way (Beijing/Lhasa or Lhasa/Beijing) to make the trip.

The schedule is as per Peter N-H linked to a couple of posts back.

Buying tickets is either an agency job or roll up at the station. If you're doing it from outside China an agency is the only real option - but you'll pay heavily compared to the cost of doing it locally.

Frankly though I think you're mad if you do the trip in one go. You're better breaking the journey, travelling around a bit, and picking up the Lhasa train in Lanzhou which gives you a civil 30(ish) hour trip.

As to direction, I suspect you'll struggle to find someone who's done the trip yet, but I'd have thought to Lhasa would be best. I presume the interest builds on the way in in comparison to on the way out.

As to direction, I suspect you'll struggle to find someone who's done the trip yet, but I'd have thought to Lhasa would be best.

There are several reports of failure to obtain tickets in Beijing, although some of these are to do with the lack of the infamous Tibet permit, which many do not realise they need, but without which a ticket cannot be purchased. This has to be dug out in Beijing, whereas you have to fight off the agents offering it in Chengdu.

It is said (I haven't tried this myself) to be available in Beijing from 28F, A, Dongfang Yinzuo, Dong Zhi Men, 8610-8447 7899 for Y850 including a nominal four-day tour package which many people simply ignore on arrival. Photos, copies of relevant passport pages, etc., are needed.

Tickets are almost certainly easier to obtain in Lhasa, where no permit is required (because you're leaving, obviously), and where there's a far smaller pool of people and cash chasing after the same number of tickets. A colleague of mine has succeeded in buying a ticket there, and ridden to Chengdu.

Peter N-H

Tickets are almost certainly easier to obtain in Lhasa, where no permit is required (because you're leaving, obviously), and where there's a far smaller pool of people and cash chasing after the same number of tickets. A colleague of mine has succeeded in buying a ticket there, and ridden to Chengdu.

Peter N-H

Thank you for your very sensible and extremely helpful advice ... now if you happen to know the best/most economical way of getting (one way) from KTM to Tibet, I will foreve be in your debt.

the best/most economical way of getting (one way) from KTM to Tibet
Assuming 'KTM' is Kathmandu, this is a problem. Although, as with everything else to do with China, things wobble from time to time, in general no direct independent entry to Tibet is allowed from there.

Accounts vary, but if you buy your visa in Kathmandu it's a variety clearly stamped as not good for land entry, and requiring a tour to obtain. Joining a tour and then converting or extending the brief visa you get while you are in Lhasa is said to be possible, but a pain in the neck. Arriving in Kathmandu with a standard tourist visa already in your passport is said to make simply abandoning the tour (as people arriving from elsewhere do) rather easier.

I have no recent direct personal experience, and am relying on the accounts of others here. But for nearly 20 years this has been a famously tricky entry point for China and most people exit rather than enter this way. The most common routes to Lhasa have always been plane from Chengdu, or by bus from Dunhuang/Golmud, and more recently by uncomfortable and expensive off-road vehicle from Kunming, on a tour. It is also possible to fly in from Beijing/Xi'an and Kunming/Xianggelila, as long as you have the permit.

Peter N-H

Once again, many thanks for your informative and helpful response. I guess that I am back to the drawing board.

If you're doing it from outside China an agency is the only real option - but you'll pay heavily compared to the cost of doing it locally.

Would you be able to recommend an agency for someone outside of China? I'm curious about this journey.

Isn't there some issue about the structural soundness of part of the infrastructure used for the journey to Tibet?

I recently did a trip to Tibet and entered from Beijing via the Lhasa train. Before we left I was worried about all the permit talk. When actuall got htere we were never required to show anything except our train ticket to get to Lhasa which really surprised me. I don't even recall having to show my passport. When on the train they did collect our train ticket and issue us a hard credit card looking item, but never once did anyone ask about Tibet permits of any kind. When we got to Lhasa they gave us our ticket back, we walked off the train and met up with our guides. We could have just as easily gotten off the train and gone on our own way.

I have put together a travel blog outlining my trip. You can find it at
http://www.merikle.com/Tibet/index.html

Feel free to ask me any questions you might have.