http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3248854,00.html

Rabbis get woman-free flight

Two leading rabbis buy all first class tickets, ask El Al to only post male stewards on flight so they do not have to see women on way to America

Haim Levinson

A modest first class flight: Two leading rabbis set to fly to the United States concluded an agreement with El Al that would see them enjoy a woman-free and movie-free flight.

The Gerrer Rebbe, a Hassidic leader who will fly abroad on Sunday, asked El Al that no air stewardesses be aboard the flight.

El Al complied with the rabbi's request and on Sunday's flight to the United States only males will look after passengers.

...snip...

The rabbis asked that the flight from Israel adhere to the strictest standards of modesty. Their aides agreed with El Al officials that they will not have to see women during flight.

The rabbis bought all first class tickets on the flight to make sure no businesswomen are on board.

It was also decided that no films will be screened during the flight. Moreover, the backs of first class seats will be covered with plastic so that the rabbis won't even have to see the television screens.

Responding to the report, El Al said: "We do not report on our customers out of respect for their privacy."

Actually this isn't a big deal. There are enough times when a section of seats is booked by an orthodox group that LY has standard procedures for putting in curtains and partitions around the group so they don't have to see the TV screens and whatnot. The lack of female FAs may be a precedent.

Duplicate Post

"It was also decided that no films will be screened during the flight. Moreover, the backs of first class seats will be covered with plastic so that the rabbis won't even have to see the television screens. "

Obviously not your fault, but the reporting sighted some incorrect information.

There are no screens on the back of first class seats on either the 744 or 772. :confused:

If a rock star pays crazy money to have only green M&Ms on his floor and pays for all the rooms on the floor so as not to deny other guests their right to red and blue M&Ms so be it....,

I am guessing the TV issue is for 1st class only as well as the "stewards..." issue. Of course it should be flight attendant not steward that is almost like calling a dog in NY a dog and not a "Canine American"

I guess this issue could lead to a deeper discussion meant for omni...

Can I have the leftover female FAs?

I understand the reason for no women in the cabin (Shomer Negiah?) but what is the reason for covering the TV screens?

I understand the reason for no women in the cabin (Shomer Negiah?) but what is the reason for covering the TV screens?

I would imagine it would be so that they would not have to see immodest dress or behavior in the television programming.

I understand the reason for no women in the cabin (Shomer Negiah?) but what is the reason for covering the TV screens?

Probably so they don't even have to 'think' about the fact that people are in the back of the bus watching Everybody Love Raymond and Guy Pines.

I dont see what the fuss is all about.

when the Pope flew to the US, it was TWA 1 way and Alitalia 1 way.

I really dont think either Carrier had FAs in Short Skirts or Hot pants working those Chartered flights. Nor do I think they asked the Pope ahead of time what Movies he would like to see, there probably was none or at least where he was sitting.

So if the Gerrer will purchase all the seats in a given area , whats so wrong if they ask and LY complies with their requests. Now if it would have an affect on anyone else aboard the flight that would be a different story. If they would Charter or buy out the whole plane then LY should do as they ask.

so they purchase all of say 1st or Biz and ask that only women be allowed to fly that arent wearing pants even in coach, I would hope that LY say "Sorry Charlie", but If they buy out 1st and or Biz and meeting their requests wont have an affect on those in Coach, no prob.

An after thought, I wonder if they specified that the Male FAs not be Gay

I don't think that anyone said it is a big deal. Just an interesting news item that we are commenting on.

An after thought, I wonder if they specified that the Male FAs not be Gay

Now that you mention it, I wonder if they DID think of that.

I understand the reason for no women in the cabin (Shomer Negiah?) but what is the reason for covering the TV screens?

Shomer negiah has to do with not touching women who are not relatives -- and you would hope that they would not be touching the FAs anyway, so that is not the issue here.

I think that paper bags over their own heads (ie. those of the Gerrer Rebbe and his entourage) are really the best solution. :)

Shomer negiah has to do with not touching women who are not relatives -- and you would hope that they would not be touching the FAs anyway, so that is not the issue here.

I think that paper bags :)

Would Love you to post the same regarding when the Pope flies on AZ. You can start such a thread on the "Other European Airlines Forum'. Something says you wont out of RESPECT, something that you are surely LACKING when it comes to Religious Jewish Leaders. Im sure that AZ makes sure that Everything will be done so that the Pope will be Comfortable flying with them. ElAl seems to have what you Dont, RESPECT for Jewish Religious Leaders.

And I disagree with you being Shomer Negiah has Everything to do with Touching any Woman and especially one who is in Nedah. And its very hard for a Female FA not to come into contact with a Male, especially when serving them or picking up be it a tray or a glass etc...

Would Love you to post the same regarding when the Pope flies on AZ. You can start such a thread on the "Other European Airlines Forum'. Something says you wont out of RESPECT, something that you are surely LACKING when it comes to Religious Jewish Leaders. Im sure that AZ makes sure that Everything will be done so that the Pope will be Comfortable flying with them. ElAl seems to have what you Dont, RESPECT for Jewish Religious Leaders.

And I disagree with you being Shomer Negiah has Everything to do with Touching any Woman and especially one who is in Nedah. And its very hard for a Female FA not to come into contact with a Male, especially when serving them or picking up be it a tray or a glass etc...

OK, Niddah is an issue -- that's true. But people manage not to touch their wives when they are in Niddah by placing objects on to the table rather than handing them to each other, and it would be a simple matter for the FAs to be given a lesson in the issue of tumah and taharah, and no bad thing for them to learn about it, and for them to be able to respect haredi practice.

I have never had a female flight attended touch me on a flight, even by mistake, nor would I hope that one ever would.

I _do_ respect these rabbis, but I do think it is quite unnecessary to ban women from working on the flight at all -- since the "hillul hashem" it may cause given the possible reactions of secular female flight attendants is, in my opinion, a great problem. The Niddah issue could have easily been overcome without banning women from working on the flight.

I also think that it is rather profligate to be buying out the whole of first class when that money could be better given to tsedakah. it would set a good example if religious leaders were to travel in a modest manner, financially speaking...

BTW, happy Lag baOmer and I apologise if I caused any offence to you.

OK, Niddah is an issue -- that's true. But people manage not to touch their wives when they are in Niddah by placing objects on to the table rather than handing them to each other, and it would be a simple matter for the FAs to be given a lesson in the issue of tumah and taharah, and no bad thing for them to learn about it, and for them to be able to respect haredi practice.

I have never had a female flight attended touch me on a flight, even by mistake, nor would I hope that one ever would.

I _do_ respect these rabbis, but I do think it is quite unnecessary to ban women from working on the flight at all -- since the "hillul hashem" it may cause given the possible reactions of secular female flight attendants is, in my opinion, a great problem. The Niddah issue could have easily been overcome without banning women from working on the flight.

I also think that it is rather profligate to be buying out the whole of first class when that money could be better given to tsedakah. it would set a good example if religious leaders were to travel in a modest manner, financially speaking...

BTW, happy Lag baOmer and I apologise if I caused any offence to you.

If you really do respect them , then you would go in and EDIT out your comments!

Ive flown on many a Carrier where at times every FA was either Female or Male. Happens all the time more so within a particular cabin.

No way can anyone who isnt Religious get a 1-2-3 Class on what they can and cant do. BTW with a Husband and Wife you must take into acct that BOTH parties know the laws, and even so many a time they will forget. Cant tell you how many times that an FA will tap me on the back to tell me something or to pass by me. I really dont think that LYs FAs had a problem with the whole thing had they, Im sure not 1 of them would have worked the flight. in the Land of JobAction you can bet that not 1 of LYs planes would have gotten Airborne if the Union had a problem with it. So if they didnt why should we?! and the Union has grounded LY for alot less then that.

Keep in mind that although the Rebbe was up front Im sure that the plane was filled with alot of his Hassidim and so he was also looking out for those who would have been flying in the other Cabins that were traveling with him.

Have a Frelich Lag

PS You are assumimg that The Rebbe paid for the tkts. i dont how he got them, alot of times a Rebbes wealthy Followers will buy them. in this case Ideal Tours of NY and JRS which is a large TA, is owned by a wealthy Gerrer Hasid , Mr Elbaum. I wouldnt be surprise in the least to find out that he got X seats from LY for Free (maybe used some of his Numerous Free 1s that they give him and his Agency, due to the amount of Biz he puts their way), maybe made a deal that they pay Y but fly 1st. Im sure that the Rebbes Wealthy Followers paid for 1st on their own. So its not as terrible as you made it out to be. But I do AGREE with you, if in fact (and I doubt it) The Gerrer Institution paid for the tkts at Full fare, it would be a shame, as it good have gone to better use.

Also keep in mind that some of the Rebbes were/are Businessmen also and are Millionaires in their own right.

Ive flown on many a Carrier where at times every FA was either Female or Male.

On every single flight I have taken on any airline, every FA was either male or female.

I'm not certain what other possibilities there are.

On every single flight I have taken on any airline, every FA was either male or female.

I'm not certain what other possibilities there are.


OK ALL Males or ALL Females

You SEE? This is what I LOVE about an EL AL forum. WE can turn a conversation about an airline into a 'discussion' about rabbis, Niddah, and the issues of shomrut negiya (?).

(As an aside...very sad to read about the Lag B'Omer injuries. Dov, can you see any fires at Mt. Meron from your Kibbutz?)

On every single flight I have taken on any airline, every FA was either male or female.

I'm not certain what other possibilities there are.

OK ALL Males or ALL Females

Biological hermaphrodites/intersexuals too?

(As an aside...very sad to read about the Lag B'Omer injuries. Dov, can you see any fires at Mt. Meron from your Kibbutz?)

We're close enough but Baram blocks our view.

I did, however, see a number of fires all the way home last night (I flew into TLV, took the train to Nahariya, and was picked up there by my ex.)

It was a wonderful flight MXP-TLV. LY's plane was out of service so they sent a Sun d'Or 757 instead. It is all configured for Coach and the seats are closer together, meaning that it is generally sardine-packed with people. However, because it was replacing a much smaller plane, and even that would not have been full, there were plenty of empty rows so I got three seats together, put up the armrests, and slept most of the trip.

You SEE? This is what I LOVE about an EL AL forum. WE can turn a conversation about an airline into a 'discussion' about rabbis, Niddah, and the issues of shomrut negiya (?).

Shemirat negiah, maybe better?

(As an aside...very sad to read about the Lag B'Omer injuries. Dov, can you see any fires at Mt. Meron from your Kibbutz?)

What injuries?

BTW, sorry for the OT-ness of all these comments of mine!

Shemirat negiah, maybe better?



What injuries?

BTW, sorry for the OT-ness of all these comments of mine!I can't find the stories now, but I saw blurbs about a guy accidentally lighting himself on fire (location unclear; one story said Netanya, the other Bnei Brak). I also saw a story suggesting there were 80 people hurt at Mt. Meron somehow, though I don't recall reading how.

and what about women doing the check in
what about the security?
what about women in the First lounch that are flying somewhere else
and what about women in General .... :) :)

The RAV RASHI Shlomo Eliau was seating next to me on 767 to London
He got a lot of VIP attantion from Man and woman FA.
But when his assitent from Economy wanted to come and talk with him,
the FA showd him his way back to Economy.

LiorM

and what about women doing the check in
what about the security?
what about women in the First lounch that are flying somewhere else
and what about women in General .... :) :)

The RAV RASHI Shlomo Eliau was seating next to me on 767 to London
He got a lot of VIP attantion from Man and woman FA.
But when his assitent from Economy wanted to come and talk with him,
the FA showd him his way back to Economy.

LiorM

and what about women doing the check in
what about the security?
what about women in the First lounch that are flying somewhere else
and what about women in General .... :) :)

The RAV RASHI Shlomo Eliau was seating next to me on 767 to London
He got a lot of VIP attantion from Man and woman FA.
But when his assitent from Economy wanted to come and talk with him,
the FA showd him his way back to Economy.

LiorM

I would be very surprised if either The Gerrer Rebbe or either of the Rav Rashis , had to go thru a reg check-in process, as if they were Yossi Q Public.

I would think they would be handled no different then any Head of State or even The Pope, does anyone really think that either of the Popes that came ever had to indure anything other then being treated as a head of State which he isnt. So if the Pope will be given special Treatment , how can we treat our Religious Leaders any different, even thou we have alot more of them.

Im sure any Sec of State of the US NEVER had to go thru a reg check-in. they are wisked away when they arrive and go straight to the plane or special side door that bypasses Check-in and passport Control when they leave.

Im sure that ElAl has Special Arrangements for taking care of the Top Rabbis , just as it does for Israeli Officals.

treated as a head of State which he isnt.

The pope IS the head of state for the Vatican (which is a state, legally)

I dont see what the fuss is all about.

when the Pope flew to the US, it was TWA 1 way and Alitalia 1 way.

An after thought, I wonder if they specified that the Male FAs not be Gay

I guess this was not related, but the Pope always flies the carrier of the host country. Eg. From Italy Al Italia, from overseas the oversaes carrier if possible. And he gets the whole plane ...

On the Germany visit they completely redid a A320. Taking out parts of the front section and putting 6 F seats in instead for the 2 hrs flight form CGN to FCO

I truely believe if any religious leader is on board, the it should be a courtesy of the airline to respect their wishes as long as it doens't infringe on other people's rights. and if they pay for hte section they can have the service

I would be very surprised if either The Gerrer Rebbe or either of the Rav Rashis , had to go thru a reg check-in process, as if they were Yossi Q Public.

I would think they would be handled no different then any Head of State or even The Pope, does anyone really think that either of the Popes that came ever had to indure anything other then being treated as a head of State which he isnt. So if the Pope will be given special Treatment , how can we treat our Religious Leaders any different, even thou we have alot more of them.

Im sure any Sec of State of the US NEVER had to go thru a reg check-in. they are wisked away when they arrive and go straight to the plane or special side door that bypasses Check-in and passport Control when they leave.

Im sure that ElAl has Special Arrangements for taking care of the Top Rabbis , just as it does for Israeli Officals.

All of the people you mention (Secs of State, Heads of State including the Popes, Israeli Gov't-appointed Chief Rabbis, etc) other than the Gerrer Rebbe and other "top" rabbis are travelling on official or diplomatic passports. I imagine that the rabbis you are treated more similarly to int'l VIPs like rock stars and the like. VIPs indeed, just not int'l gov't officials with special passports.

All of the people you mention (Secs of State, Heads of State including the Popes, Israeli Gov't-appointed Chief Rabbis, etc) other than the Gerrer Rebbe and other "top" rabbis are travelling on official or diplomatic passports. I imagine that the rabbis you are treated more similarly to int'l VIPs like rock stars and the like. VIPs indeed, just not int'l gov't officials with special passports.

you are correct, I was trying to say that not everyone has to go thru reg check-in and deal with whatever.

I wasnt at TLV when the Gerrer Rebbe flew nor at the arriving airport. I also understand that there are TONS of Rabbis and many if not all think that they are special and very important.

In our case (The Gerrer Rebbe) is not just any Rabbi, but is a VIP among Rabbis. And is the leader of one of the largest Hassidic sects. ( For the record Im not a Gerrer Hasid or any Hasid for that matter).

I didnt find His requests to be farfetched, and it seems neither did ElAl, since they accomadate him. Personally I dont have a problem and would and do fly as He chose not to. But thats his Right to fly as he feels he must.

I would say I would hope that if they didnt charter out the whole flight for themselves, that at least those in the other cabins were able to watch a movie etc if they so chose to. Since they had taken all the 1st class seats , I see no problem if they covered or shut off the screens in that cabin. For me at least I couldnt care if they were only male FAs and I really doubt that most people would care either. So LYs accomadating Him if they made it an ALL Male crew is no prob.

I truely believe if any religious leader is on board, the it should be a courtesy of the airline to respect their wishes as long as it doens't infringe on other people's rights. and if they pay for hte section they can have the service

Shouldn't that be the case (non-head-of-state) religious leader or not?

"Any religious leader" can be quite broad.

OK, Niddah is an issue -- that's true. But people manage not to touch their wives when they are in Niddah by placing objects on to the table rather than handing them to each other, and it would be a simple matter for the FAs to be given a lesson in the issue of tumah and taharah, and no bad thing for them to learn about it, and for them to be able to respect haredi practice.

I have never had a female flight attended touch me on a flight, even by mistake, nor would I hope that one ever would.

I _do_ respect these rabbis, but I do think it is quite unnecessary to ban women from working on the flight at all -- since the "hillul hashem" it may cause given the possible reactions of secular female flight attendants is, in my opinion, a great problem. The Niddah issue could have easily been overcome without banning women from working on the flight.

I also think that it is rather profligate to be buying out the whole of first class when that money could be better given to tsedakah. it would set a good example if religious leaders were to travel in a modest manner, financially speaking...

BTW, happy Lag baOmer and I apologise if I caused any offence to you.

This is all quite fascinating but incomprehensible to the uninitiated...

Would you kindly explain what this is all about - Niddah, tumah and taharah, haredi, hillul hashem etc?

Is it about menstruation?

This is all quite fascinating but incomprehensible to the uninitiated...

Would you kindly explain what this is all about - Niddah, tumah and taharah, haredi, hillul hashem etc?

Is it about menstruation?

Bingo, except for the haredi and hillul hashem terms.

Niddah = menstration

tumah = non-pure in a Religious sense

taharah = rendering something to be pure again

haredi = very Religious

hillul hashem = doing something thats against Jewish law and G-d that other people see or can find out about ( im not happy with this and will try to come up with a better description, hopefully someone else can)

This is all quite fascinating but incomprehensible to the uninitiated...

Would you kindly explain what this is all about - Niddah, tumah and taharah, haredi, hillul hashem etc?

Is it about menstruation?

Sorry for the jargon!

Most of the stuff was already defined by craz, but I'd add:

hillul hashem = literally means "desecration of the name [of God]". If a person sees someone who is known to be religious or who dresses piously but who nonetheless is performing an action that seems (or is) dishonourable, and which is thus in conflict with their supposed piety, the witness to this behaviour might judge all religious people or the religion as a whole in a negative light (making them think that "All Jews or all religious Jews do this and it's religiously permissible/encouraged"), and such a blanket judgment would be a "hillul hashem".

The emphasis is often on the idea that the action is being witnessed, but of course unethical or insensitive behaviour is viewed as problematic in Judaism whether someone else sees it or not.


One more definition:
tzedakah = charity

Apologies for the insider jargon! :)

hillul hashem = doing something thats against Jewish law and G-d that other people see or can find out about ( im not happy with this and will try to come up with a better description, hopefully someone else can)

I would go with "Causing God to be disgraced" but, more importantly, I think we should avoid any religious and/or Hebrew terminology on this forum as many of its readers will not understand them.

I would go with "Causing God to be disgraced" but, more importantly, I think we should avoid any religious and/or Hebrew terminology on this forum as many of its readers will not understand them.

Ditto. Apologies for the jargon, but my intention was to use arguments particularly germane to the response from craz to which I was replying. I had no idea that we would move so quickly into a technical discussion of Jewish law.

I would go with "Causing God to be disgraced" but, more importantly, I think we should avoid any religious and/or Hebrew terminology on this forum as many of its readers will not understand them.

I concur and have posted as such on numerous Threads over FT in the past. Not only regarding Hebrew but any language other then English , of cause if the poster translates what they posted then I dont have a prob with it.

I'm Jewish don't get me wrong but this is way too strict. What happens if I was in FC on that flight I would have the right to watch TV let alone eat a cheeseburger from Mc Donalds. Another passenger would have the right to eat a ham sandwich if he so pleases. We are free people and you cannot get booted off for eating a ham sandwich. If you do a lawsuit would be in place. Nowhere does it say on the website ham is not permitted. Yes they serve kosher meals but how can you controll what secular Jews bring on the fligt? I respect Rabbi's but I respect my own rights. I would need to watch TV as it passes the time. If I paid for the price of the ticket I would go as far as to uncover my PTV and say to the Rabbi's I'm a Jew and I respect your service to the community but pardon me while I tune in to a movie I paid for this seat and so I can adhear to my standards of Jewish living . As for no female FA's what is this all about? What does sex have to do with this. This is too extreme. God made us male and female so why should this have to do anything with operating standards of a flight?

If your soo strict then fly on your own private plane don't expect non-religous passengers to go along with no movies etc. So you even say a blessing for no TV? Hmm how can one enjoy a flght without a PTV?

I would want Airshow as well.

Any opinions? This is the oddest thing I read on Flyertalk in my 3 years of being a member. Oy Vey Iz mir(Woe is me)

What happens if I was in FC on that flight I would have the right to watch TV let alone eat a cheeseburger from Mc Donalds.

Firstly, you would not be in FC on that flight -- the rabbis had bought out the entire cabin just to avoid the situation you mentioned vis-a-vis television.

Secondly, I do believe that LY has the right to stop you from eating ham on board as it would risk making its facilities unkosher. (I may be wrong on that point and call upon the more religious among us to address that issue.)

Thirdly, I am still waiting for an answer from LY about my request earlier in this thread to get the leftover females FAs.

I'm sorry that I've come to this forum so late, but am I right in thinking that two rabbis board a plane in Tel Aviv, where there are women officials (I assume), they buy all the first class seats and insist on male stewards (gay all right then, not that I'd care). Did they insist on the pilots being male?

They ask for all sorts of other stuff, which is fair enough, if you've just bought the whole of first class.

They land in the US and are greeted by customs and immigration, male and female, gay and straight and possibly something else, you can never tell.

Are you honestly saying that they will be dealt with as special people, so that means that the upper classes of all faiths are treated specially. I hope not. I'm lost.

as the son of a holocaust survivor, who by the way is not religious nor was his family, for the most part, does this mean that if i fly el al, that i cannot eat a ham and cheese sandwich or pork or whatever is not kosher? how would this afect anyone else's meal? if i am in my own seat, whether in first,business,or coach class?

i do not know the first thing about kosher or anything, but it would seem to be wrong to tell me if i cannot eat something that i made or bought at airport....

also, these rabbis sound very different, a little too extreme for me, what is the matter with dealing with someone of the opposite sex? or having a tv,in the plane, if they do not want to watch the tv,then they do not have to turn the tv on, they can leave it off, or just ignore the tv.

also, did el al airlines give these rabbis a discount for buying all of the seats, or did they pay "full fare.", also what a waste of money by these men, they could have donated the extra seat money to poor kids, jewish,on-jewish,etc.... or to a charity it is like a rock star or etcc.... just squandering money..... that is my 2 cents...

Are you honestly saying that they will be dealt with as special people, so that means that the upper classes of all faiths are treated specially. I hope not. I'm lost.

Welcome to the wild crazy world of FlyerTalk, graj0. And especially, welcome to El-Al forum. Keep your eyes here and in the British Airways forum for the most lively (at times) discussions on the board.

As for VIP treatment, anyone who buys out the whole F cabin surely is entitled to VIP treatment. El-Al made a lot of money off this group and I am sure is happy to do whatever is necessary to keep them happy.

I'm sorry that I've come to this forum so late, but am I right in thinking that two rabbis board a plane in Tel Aviv, where there are women officials (I assume), they buy all the first class seats and insist on male stewards (gay all right then, not that I'd care). Did they insist on the pilots being male?

They ask for all sorts of other stuff, which is fair enough, if you've just bought the whole of first class.

They land in the US and are greeted by customs and immigration, male and female, gay and straight and possibly something else, you can never tell.

Are you honestly saying that they will be dealt with as special people, so that means that the upper classes of all faiths are treated specially. I hope not. I'm lost.


Welcome to FT

dont wish to repost what was already said. Basically although I wasnt there but do know people who have gone thru with VIP treatment.

These 2 Rabbis werent any Rabbis, they are the leaders of 10s of 1000s. I dont really believe at least in Israel that they were subjected to waiting on the reg check-in line and endure what everyone else does. No diferent then any Israeli Govt offical who who also wont go thru that routine.

Now should that be the case has nothing to do with Me or You. Ive been on Inbound Intl flights where there were Offical govt Reps of a Country coming in. They are met at the door of the Aircraft and wisked away down a staircase and into a waiting Car/s.

Do you think any time a Pope flys that he goes thru the security and Passport controls as we do? does the Pope wait on Check-in lines? Goes thru TSA? Keep in mind that whatever plane he will be flying on is completely reconfigured in the cabin/s to accomadate him and those flying with him.

.
Thirdly, I am still waiting for an answer from LY about my request earlier in this thread to get the leftover females FAs.


Careful now -- you might get what you wish for. And then?

Remember this board is PG13 rated!!!

Careful now -- you might get what you wish for. And then?


Cardiac arrest -- but very enjoyable cardiac arrest.

And I thought this forum was about airlines not religious battles. :confused:

With all due respect to all that have posted:
I can understand that it may seem in excess or as others put it that money can be used for other important causes. But as someone whose family foundation has contributed significant sums to both the Gerrer organization and to charites that the esteemed Rav Steinman have been active in, I can honestly say that in regards to both Rabbis and their representive organizations, that they are not in it for themselves in the least bit. Which other 93 year old person would fly on a plane for 11 hours to go ahead and raise money, not for themselves or something that they get paid for, but for an organization, that they themselves support.

Believe me sitting in a plane is not at all easy. No matter how u slice it or what class yr travelling in. These people aren't in it for the miles. I can only say that every single penny they take in they are accountable for. The fact that they are coming in for different reasons (both of which are to help people) and that they coordinated it to travel together, to CUT DOWN on expenses shows that they are concerned with the bottom line.

Regarding their requests, why is it that when a rock star or any other celb, has their demands, which is specified down to the color of the "m&m" that people do not make a huge deal out of it. With the celbs it is to pamper themselves, with these Rabbi's it is for them to maintain what they call, "shmirat eynayim", meaning, that these pple are very carefull of what they see, (not in any discriminatory manner) and if these are their standards, then El Al I am sure, is head over heals happy to oblige, as them flying El Al, it is giving their endorsment, to hundreds of thousands of pple

With all due respect to all that have posted:
I can understand that it may seem in excess or as others put it that money can be used for other important causes. But as someone whose family foundation has contributed significant sums to both the Gerrer organization and to charites that the esteemed Rav Steinman have been active in, I can honestly say that in regards to both Rabbis and their representive organizations, that they are not in it for themselves in the least bit. Which other 93 year old person would fly on a plane for 11 hours to go ahead and raise money, not for themselves or something that they get paid for, but for an organization, that they themselves support.

Believe me sitting in a plane is not at all easy. No matter how u slice it or what class yr travelling in. These people aren't in it for the miles. I can only say that every single penny they take in they are accountable for. The fact that they are coming in for different reasons (both of which are to help people) and that they coordinated it to travel together, to CUT DOWN on expenses shows that they are concerned with the bottom line.

Regarding their requests, why is it that when a rock star or any other celb, has their demands, which is specified down to the color of the "m&m" that people do not make a huge deal out of it. With the celbs it is to pamper themselves, with these Rabbi's it is for them to maintain what they call, "shmirat eynayim", meaning, that these pple are very carefull of what they see, (not in any discriminatory manner) and if these are their standards, then El Al I am sure, is head over heals happy to oblige, as them flying El Al, it is giving their endorsment, to hundreds of thousands of pple

Theres a big difference between Celebs and Rabbis. A Celeb does what they do for the $$$ and Honor, a Rabbi shouldnt be.

Personally even if they are paying for the seat out of their own pockets, I feel its best for a Leading Rabbi/Sage not to fly in 1st or Biz, in order to set an example.

OT; theres a thing out there that a wedding shouldnt have more then 400 Guests that will be sitting down to the meal that the leading Rabbis (Yeshiva) have called for. Yet when its their own kid or grandchild thats the 1 getting Married then its AOK to have a very large affair. If anything they themselves should be setting an example.

Now lets say LY gave them the 1st Class compartment for free, Id say if the whole plane was a Charter then maybe but since that wasnt the case, how will everyone in Coach who will see them up in 1st or Biz know the seats were for free? The only thing where Id say it would be proper is if they will be able to get work done when up there and they will hit the pavement once they land and if they werent up there then they would need a day to get back to themselves. But Generally they should set an example

First off, on principle it sounds very nice what you say. 2 things, how can anyone expect someone who is 92 or 93 to sit in coach. If these rabbis were in coach, it would disrupt the whole flight for everyone on the plane. As well how can these leaders be expected to function, when they will get no sleep or peace and quiet. They are not like the rest of us. PERIOD.

Let us see some other religious leader that is the same stature of these rabbis fly in coach, its really amazing the discrimination and self hatred of our own holy people. In regards to the wedding comment, I am full aware of the statement put out. But if you would take the time to read it in full you would stop using it as a matter of spitting it back.

When these rabbis make weddings for their kids, it aint no Preston Bailey (he is the considered the top & most expensive wedding designer in North America) extravaganza. The weddings may be huge but they are certainly not lavish in the least bit. The reason that they are big, is not for the rabbis benefit, but rather for his "chassidim" (followers) sake, so they can all share in the joy of the wedding.

This whole 400 pple thing, is meant for pple to cut back on the lavishness of the event, and to take away, from setting such a high standard that people are forced to compete with. Another thing, for your information is that some people who make lavish weddings will take the same amount they spent on the weddings, and take it and give the same amount away to charity to help poor people make weddings.

Sad.

The tickets were paid for by close supporters of the Rabbi's. Why can't we all assume they flew First for privacy and allocation of time reasons.

The funny thing is if a wealthy American man paid for the entire first class and asked for all female stewardesses -this would be less of a story.

These Rabbi's clearly are trying to hold themselves to strict rigid moral standards (perhaps ones that you and I do not follow) - why can't we allow them to??

I have absolutely no objections to El Al reserving an entire cabin for anyone who is willing to pay for it and to make accomodations for them.

I also think that in the case of religious leaders (especially, as Israel is the Jewish state, rabbis) that such accomodations should fit their religious beliefs.

I certainly hope we can all agree on that.

As Reform Judaism is the largest Jewish group in America, I would expect El Al to make accomodations for Reform rabbis on its TLV-JFK flights.

In fact, I could well see a large Reform temple taking every seat, in all cabins, on a flight. I am certain that none of those who support the rabbi's banning of the female FAs would mind if the flight were scheduled for a Saturday so that the rabbi could be back in time for an inter-faith sermon at a nearby church on Sunday morning.

Moreover, if it is a female rabbi and she wants to perform a wedding ceremony on board for a gay couple, I know that all of the haredim would join me in wishing the pair "mazel tov".

(And, as long as disposable plates/utensils are used, there should be no objection to serving non-kosher meals to those on the flight who prefer it, right?)

I have absolutely no objections to El Al reserving an entire cabin for anyone who is willing to pay for it and to make accomodations for them.

I also think that in the case of religious leaders (especially, as Israel is the Jewish state, rabbis) that such accomodations should fit their religious beliefs.

I certainly hope we can all agree on that.

As Reform Judaism is the largest Jewish group in America, I would expect El Al to make accomodations for Reform rabbis on its TLV-JFK flights.

In fact, I could well see a large Reform temple taking every seat, in all cabins, on a flight. I am certain that none of those who support the rabbi's banning of the female FAs would mind if the flight were scheduled for a Saturday so that the rabbi could be back in time for an inter-faith sermon at a nearby church on Sunday morning.

Moreover, if it is a female rabbi and she wants to perform a wedding ceremony on board for a gay couple, I know that all of the haredim would join me in wishing the pair "mazel tov".

(And, as long as disposable plates/utensils are used, there should be no objection to serving non-kosher meals to those on the flight who prefer it, right?)

Must be a very slow day on the Farm

I would think they would be handled no different then any Head of State or even The Pope, does anyone really think that either of the Popes that came ever had to indure anything other then being treated as a head of State which he isnt.

Actually the Pope IS a head of state. Unlike the Rabbis...

Just look up the index of embassies, and you will see the Holy Sea mentioned in most countries. There is also a Minister of Foreign Affairs, they have their own Army, their own money (but not used) and their own postal system (including stamps) ...

It is a small country, but still a country. The only smaller country is the Order of Maltec Knights .. they don't have a country but found sanctuary in Malta

Must be a very slow day on the Farm

LOL

It is very nice that Reform Judaism is the largest Jewish group in America. I ask what accommodations should be made for them. Should we serve them (as YOU alluded to) glatt kosher or regular pork.

For someone who is a flyer talk board member, you have a certain responsibilty for what you post. El Al is the airline of ISRAEL, the land of the JEWS. Yes there are other religions in Israel but ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE.

How dare you insult the reform movement with your degrading post. I am not reform,(actually Orthodox, not that it matters) but I have many reform friends, who would take offense by reffering to accomodations made for Reform Rabbi's would be serving them PURE TREIF on SHABBOS.

Reform Judaism, as a friend of mine (who happens to be the senior rabbi of Canada's largest and oldest Reform Temple) stands for positive change, bringing Judaism to the people, and altering it to fit the times that we live in. NOT GOING AGAINST EVERYTHING THAT JUDAISM STANDS FOR.

THE SEVENTH DAY YOU SHALL REST. THAT DAY IS SATURDAY TO YOU AND SHABBOS, TO THE REST OF JUDAISM. If you want to make reform judaism to be something that is a different religion, go ahead and create your own religion, but do not create a bad name for reform Judaism, because reform judaism has done and will continue to do so very much for the people of Israel, the land of Israel and the Jewish people.

The disgusting hatred that spews from your remarks towards people who are trying to carry out their service to the Jewish people in a way that it does not disturb the general public, is disgusting.

This is what they need, they paid for it, it is not going against anything rule of El Al.

Flying on Saturday, and serving non kosher is going against El Al's rules, because (I am sure you hate to hear this) EL AL is the national airline of ISRAEL and ISRAEL is a jewish state.

How dare you insult the reform movement with your degrading post. I am not reform,(actually Orthodox, not that it matters) but I have many reform friends, who would take offense by reffering to accomodations made for Reform Rabbi's would be serving them PURE TREIF on SHABBOS.

(snip)

The disgusting hatred that spews from your remarks towards people who are trying to carry out their service to the Jewish people in a way that it does not disturb the general public, is disgusting.

This is what they need, they paid for it, it is not going against anything rule of El Al.

Flying on Saturday, and serving non kosher is going against El Al's rules, because (I am sure you hate to hear this) EL AL is the national airline of ISRAEL and ISRAEL is a jewish state.

My disgusting hatred? Against Reform Judaism?

I have news for you -- I am Reform and have been for almost 50 years.

And, no, El Al does not refuse to fly on Saturdays because it is the national airline of Israel. It does not fly on Saturday because the religious parties made it illegal for it to do so.

Most Israeli Jews do not agree with the Shabbat laws and would get rid of them in a moment if it were politically possible.

Please do not tell me what Israel is. I have a pretty good idea, having lived here for 28 years, served in the Army, gone through three wars, raised two children here, and love the country.

What I do not like is being told that I can not get married by the rabbi of my choice. I can in predominently Christian countries like the US and Canada. Why am I denied this religious freedom in Israel?

I do not like being told that one branch of Judaism is somehow superior to the others. These Orthodox rabbis have to avoid seeing women? Where did that come from? Certainly not the Old Testament -- I never heard of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David or Solomon avoiding looking at them.

Oh yes, it is absolutely forbidden to eat chicken with cheese. This is obviously straight out of Leviticus. I'll tell you what -- I will agree with it the moment you show me the first goat which gives birth to a chicken.

Rabbis have, for thousands of years, interpreted Halacha and made their own rulings. Those rulings constantly change. There are even some ultra-Orthodox nut cases who come to Israel to denounce its very existence.

That is their right. My right is to listen to the rabbis whose interpretations seem to make more sense to me -- and I am sorry to tell you that they are not the Orthodox.

Oh yes, it is absolutely forbidden to eat chicken with cheese. This is obviously straight out of Leviticus. I'll tell you what -- I will agree with it the moment you show me the first goat which gives birth to a chicken.

I'd also like to see a chicken boiled in its mother's milk.

Give me an "O", Give me an "N", give me an "M", give me an "I"

What does thats Smell (intended) ? OMNI

These 2 Rabbis werent any Rabbis, they are the leaders of 10s of 1000s. I dont really believe at least in Israel that they were subjected to waiting on the reg check-in line and endure what everyone else does. No diferent then any Israeli Govt offical who who also wont go thru that routine.

(snip)
Do you think any time a Pope flys that he goes thru the security and Passport controls as we do? does the Pope wait on Check-in lines? Goes thru TSA? Keep in mind that whatever plane he will be flying on is completely reconfigured in the cabin/s to accomadate him and those flying with him.

Give me an "O", Give me an "N", give me an "M", give me an "I"

What does thats Smell (intended) ? OMNI

I see no difference in asking for respect for an Orthodox rabbi and a Reform one. Why do you think one is acceptable in the El Al Forum and the other has to be put in Omni?

My disgusting hatred? Against Reform Judaism?

I have news for you -- I am Reform and have been for almost 50 years.

And, no, El Al does not refuse to fly on Saturdays because it is the national airline of Israel. It does not fly on Saturday because the religious parties made it illegal for it to do so.

Most Israeli Jews do not agree with the Shabbat laws and would get rid of them in a moment if it were politically possible.

Please do not tell me what Israel is. I have a pretty good idea, having lived here for 28 years, served in the Army, gone through three wars, raised two children here, and love the country.

What I do not like is being told that I can not get married by the rabbi of my choice. I can in predominently Christian countries like the US and Canada. Why am I denied this religious freedom in Israel?

I do not like being told that one branch of Judaism is somehow superior to the others. These Orthodox rabbis have to avoid seeing women? Where did that come from? Certainly not the Old Testament -- I never heard of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David or Solomon avoiding looking at them.

Oh yes, it is absolutely forbidden to eat chicken with cheese. This is obviously straight out of Leviticus. I'll tell you what -- I will agree with it the moment you show me the first goat which gives birth to a chicken.

Rabbis have, for thousands of years, interpreted Halacha and made their own rulings. Those rulings constantly change. There are even some ultra-Orthodox nut cases who come to Israel to denounce its very existence.

That is their right. My right is to listen to the rabbis whose interpretations seem to make more sense to me -- and I am sorry to tell you that they are not the Orthodox.



This is an airline forum, not a religous one. Therefore:

I am not going to defend Reform, Orthodox, or Conservative Jewry. Each has its own issues. But lets not be foolish - there is no way the State of Israel is going to please everyones interpetation of the Bible.
However you need to open up a bit and try and understand why someone would want to be Conservative or Orthodox. Each denomination has roots, meaning, and traditions. (more on this off the forum).

It appears that these ultra-Orthodox rabbi's prefer to aviod conversing with women other then their wifes. They prefer not to watch TV which is full of women dressed in immodest attire; full of immoral content, and not exactly mind stimulating (If you watch TV like me, you can at least understand that!). They seem to want to keep their minds focused on one thing - following the Bible and it's laws to the best they can interpet.

Are they right? I am not qualified to answer that. Some say yes, some say no. What I do know is that I try to respect their lifestyle the same way I respect the lifestlye of a Conservative Rabbi.
I was not sitting in First Class that day, and nor were you. Supporters of these Rabbi's bought all the FC seats, in order that people like us should not have reason to complain.
So what they don't want to watch TV? So what they are uncomfortable conversing with women who are not their wifes?! It doesn't bother me or my wife, and it shouldn't bother you! No harm done!

When I noticed this topic I started from the begining. I actually though that forum members would congratulate El-Al for finally being accomodating to paying customers!!

I see no difference in asking for respect for an Orthodox rabbi and a Reform one. Why do you think one is acceptable in the El Al Forum and the other has to be put in Omni?

had you posted as such w/o the Bashing like you did, I would have had no problem (I still wouldnt have agreed with You but the post would have been proper and dealing with how LY handles/deals with different types of Rabbis), Once you went into your attacks thats another subject all together.

with that A Good Shabbos to you which I believe starts very shortly for those in Israel

So what they don't want to watch TV? So what they are uncomfortable conversing with women who are not their wifes?! It doesn't bother me or my wife, and it shouldn't bother you! No harm done!

When I noticed this topic I started from the begining. I actually though that forum members would congratulate El-Al for finally being accomodating to paying customers!!

I have no problem with them not watching TV or avoiding conversations with women other than their wives.

I also think that El Al wisely accomodated large-paying customers.

I believe, in fact, that I stated both of these things earlier.

What I object to is El Al making these kinds of concessions to Orthodox rabbis while Israeli law (and the Orthodox lobby) prohibits it from doing the same for Reform rabbis.

with that A Good Shabbos to you which I believe starts very shortly for those in Israel

And shabbat shalom alecha.

I am dissapointed that El Al wishes to support the two rabbi's sexist requests to have an all male flight crew. Even though I was taught to be Jewish I think it should be clear that this is 2007--5767 if you prefer-- and that it is time for a change. El Al or EK or any airline should not go out of thier way to support these types of practices that are outdated and based off of a scripture that is 1000's of years old and we--the whole world-- do not even know who or what the author was. If corporations keep supporting a homophobic, sexist, and fundementalist regime that hundreds of thousands of people follow the corporations may cease to exist. These rabbi's would prefer life be in the middle ages, similar to the Islamic Fundementalists.

To bring it back to El Al, they should not have accepted the requests of the rabbi's to forbid women from the flight crew. If it makes El Al money than it should be fine for them but these rabbi's should be sued or be taken to court in a sexism and homophobic trial to bring them to 2007--5767--and stop them from affecting more people.

I am dissapointed that El Al wishes to support the two rabbi's sexist requests to have an all male flight crew. Even though I was taught to be Jewish I think it should be clear that this is 2007--5767 if you prefer-- and that it is time for a change. El Al or EK or any airline should not go out of thier way to support these types of practices that are outdated and based off of a scripture that is 1000's of years old and we--the whole world-- do not even know who or what the author was. If corporations keep supporting a homophobic, sexist, and fundementalist regime that hundreds of thousands of people follow the corporations may cease to exist. These rabbi's would prefer life be in the middle ages, similar to the Islamic Fundementalists.

To bring it back to El Al, they should not have accepted the requests of the rabbi's to forbid women from the flight crew. If it makes El Al money than it should be fine for them but these rabbi's should be sued or be taken to court in a sexism and homophobic trial to bring them to 2007--5767--and stop them from affecting more people.

Ahem, excuse me, but what are smoking? Neither El Al or the Rabbis (or EK in your theoretical reference) did anything illegal. They PAID for the whole F section (not an incosequential amount of money) and had a request that was, frankly, rather simple to comply with logistically - so what's it to you? El Al is a business, privately owned at that. They CHOOSE to cater to a certain clientele not because they are fanatical fundamentalists or religious extremeists (or religious at all ;) ), but rather because it makes GOOD BUSINESS SENSE in the market they are serving. On what grounds exactly should these rabbis be sued? What the hell is a sexism and homophobic trial? Is their request homophobia? And pardon me, but I don't think its sexism either - certainly not any illegal kind of sexism. There are no laws requiring a passenger to accept or an airline to provide female FA's in a case where they are willing to pay specifically for a male FA. Its like someone asking a car service for a particular driver they like. Is it illegal for the NBA to draft only men? Gee whiz!