After a few unexpected events, I now have the first free summer of my entire life - and I don't want to waste it. After evaluating all of the possibilities, I have decided that I want to spend the entire time developing my weak Mandarin language skills in China. I've looked at programs at all of the major universities (mostly in Beijing, the only city I've visited), however, for you China experts, where would you go/stay? It seems like it would be wise to either rent an apartment for 3 months in one city, or stay in a maximum of two cities during my stay. I can't spend hotel money, and it appears that I can rent a nice apartment for less than $750/month.

Any ideas?

After a few unexpected events, I now have the first free summer of my entire life - and I don't want to waste it. After evaluating all of the possibilities, I have decided that I want to spend the entire time developing my weak Mandarin language skills in China. I've looked at programs at all of the major universities (mostly in Beijing, the only city I've visited), however, for you China experts, where would you go/stay? It seems like it would be wise to either rent an apartment for 3 months in one city, or stay in a maximum of two cities during my stay. I can't spend hotel money, and it appears that I can rent a nice apartment for less than $750/month.

Any ideas?

I can tell you from personal experience, two of the best programs in the world are in Taipei, Taiwan:

National Taiwan University: http://ccms.ntu.edu.tw/~iclp/
National Taiwan Normal University:http://www.ntnu.edu.tw

My oldest son, who graduates from college next week is taking 1-2 yrs off to study Mandarin before going back to law school and these are the two he has considering.

In China, the better program is at Tsing Hua University (pin yin is qing hua)... you can do a google on them. The 'old Stanford' program used to be at NTU Taiwan and then moved to Tsing Hua after formal recognition of China years back.

I can tell you from personal experience, two of the best programs in the world are in Taipei, Taiwan:

National Taiwan Normal University:http://www.ntnu.edu.tw

Tsing Hua University (pin yin is qing hua)...
That's interesting. I visited NTNU when I was in Taiwan last fall. I was actually visiting the college as an evaluation to determine if it is a place I want to attend to earn a degree. Tsinghua was the original school I considered for language, with Beijing Normal and Peking being the other options (leaning toward Beijing Normal).

What concerned me about National Taiwan is that some of the Mandarin seems to be spoken differently than what I heard in Beijing (mainland cottonmouth style :) ). Although learning traditional wouldn't be that big of a problem (I know simplified), would my Taiwanese style pronunciation cause a challenge is dealing with persons from China, which is my main goal.

That's interesting. I visited NTNU when I was in Taiwan last fall. I was actually visiting the college as an evaluation to determine if it is a place I want to attend to earn a degree. Tsinghua was the original school I considered for language, with Beijing Normal and Peking being the other options (leaning toward Beijing Normal).

What concerned me about National Taiwan is that some of the Mandarin seems to be spoken differently than what I heard in Beijing (mainland cottonmouth style :) ). Although learning traditional wouldn't be that big of a problem (I know simplified), would my Taiwanese style pronunciation cause a challenge is dealing with persons from China, which is my main goal.

This reply might elicit different opinions.

1. What is spoken in Beijing is not the same as putonghua, but the king's mandarin. As there are 100's of dialects and accents in China, most don't speak the pure beijing mandarin.
2. What you will learn in either Taiwan or China - at the school is putonghua, with the cottonmouth -- but what you will actually learn on the 'streets' depends on where you are live. In Beijing, of course the kings' mandarin. In Shanghai, more of the 'normal' putonghua; in Taiwan it will obviously be heavily slanted to taiwan colloquial speech.
3. There are probably 300-450,000 taiwanese in Shanghai and trust me there is no barrier in communications :)
4. I would also argue for anyone serious about the language to learn the traditional characters...moving to simplified is easy. Doing the other way around is tougher.
5. My wife is from Taiwan (but not taiwanese) and she has two different ways of speaking: one with friends, the other with more beijing/putonghua accent during more formal settings.

Back to Taiwan

NTNU is not as competitive as NTU, at least when I was studying back in the '70's! NTU was more for graduate students, doing their Ph.D, etc. whereas NTNU more for college students.

But as I noted earlier and you outlined above, Tsinghua, Beijing Normal should all have good programs. You can't go wrong with any of them....whereas I would not say the same of some other university language programs.

IMHO

About NTNU, don't worry about accent differences, the teachers there take care to speak and teach in a very standardized pronunciation.

On the other hand, it might be nice to be in a big city on the mainland because i assume you will hear a much wider variety of accents. having only lived in taiwan, I have trouble understanding some of the mainlanders i run into here in the states.

On the other hand, it might be nice to be in a big city on the mainland because i assume you will hear a much wider variety of accents. having only lived in taiwan, I have trouble understanding some of the mainlanders i run into here in the states. Thanks for that input, that actually confirms one of my main concerns. When I was in Taipei last fall, I got into a long conversation with the taxi driver out to the aiport (traffic). He commented that from time to time, it's difficult for him to understand people from Beijing. I made note of that and tucked into the back of my mind.

For my puposes, the main focus of my language skills will be to communicate with persons from (1) Beijing and (2) Shanghai, so I think I'll leave the focus there. While I did enjoy the more modern feeling Taipei (vs. Beijing), the prices seemed very "western" - i.e.: stuff wasn't that cheap :)

So let me change the question slightly. Would you spend all 3 months in Beijing or Shanghai, or spend two months in Beijing and one month in Shanghai?

I studied in Beijing a long time ago (1988-89 at BeiDa), and my last visit was in 2000, so I can't offer much of an informed opinion on which school to choose, etc. But I'll throw in my two fen regarding the city choice and language learning in general: I would stay the whole time in a single city, and I would make sure that it's a city where the local dialect is more or less the one you're going to study. In other words, of the two places you're now thinking of, I would pick Beijing.

It depends in part on your style for learning languages, and on how proficient you already are in spoken Mandarin, but I'll presume here that you want to be able (or be compelled to) use the language on a daily basis, with the taxi drivers, the street vendors, etc., and to be immersed in it - that is, to have the language surround you via television, radio, PA announcements, and streetside chatter. If this is indeed the case, then Shanghai IMO is not a great choice, for the reason that people there will still prefer their native shanghai-hua dialect (which is very different from Mandarin). Oh, they'll speak to you in putonghua, but it still won't be the same immersion experience that you'd get in Beijing.

Another idea: take some time - like the entire third month - to travel around China. Beijing is a big city, with a lot of English speakers -- both Chinese and other foreigners -- and lots of locals who are jaded and less interested in talking to you (unless they want to take you to a tea ceremony, apparently...). So hit the road, and go to some of the smaller cities where there aren't so many foreigners. Take the train rather than flying, and chat with the other people in your compartment on the long-haul train rides. It's a great country to explore, and you'll get a little more attuned to the variety of accents too.

As far as the western vs non-western aspect of Taipei vs Beijing...well, what can I say, compared to the late 80s, Beijing now seems so very modern and western to me...

Yi lu ping an,
Michael

[QUOTE=Michael]I studied in Beijing a long time ago (1988-89 at BeiDa), and my last visit was in 2000, so I can't offer much of an informed opinion on which school to choose, etc. But I'll throw in my two fen regarding the city choice and language learning in general: I would stay the whole time in a single city, and I would make sure that it's a city where the local dialect is more or less the one you're going to study. In other words, of the two places you're now thinking of, I would pick Beijing.

What Michael said.

When I went to Beijing for the first time, I was struck by how closely people's everyday speech resembled what was on my textbook tapes.

Shanghai's street language is NOT Mandarin, but part of a family of dialects known as the Wu dialects. I've seen a movie in which the dialogue is all in Shanghai dialect, and I could understand almost nothing. It was not quite as opaque as Cantonese, but it wasn't easy, either. (In a movie with a Mandarin soundtrack, I can understand from 25%-50%. The Shanghai movie was more like 10%. A Cantonese movie is more like 1%.)

This reply might elicit different opinions.
Here's one :D

1. What is spoken in Beijing is not the same as putonghua, but the king's mandarin. As there are 100's of dialects and accents in China, most don't speak the pure beijing mandarin.
I would hardly call Beijing dialect "pure" though -- Beijingers add "r" to the end of every other syllable and speak like they're rolling hot potatoes in their mouths, so it's no wonder others find them difficult to understand. As a dialect it's pretty far from what you hear on CCTV news.

Putonghua is, fundamentally, an artificial compromise and there are no "native" speakers anywhere in China, in a way it's a second language for everybody. As a point of comparison, I'm sure we can all agree that there is such a thing as "American English", but where do they speak "pure" American English? NBC and CNN...?

What is spoken in Beijing is not only difficult for taiwan taxi drivers but shanghainese taxi drivers.

What is taught at any good program is standard putonghua with a emphasis on the 'r' rolling of tongue/pronunciation. In fact very few, except north china uses the 'r'....but they do speak in the standard putonghua.

Keep in mind China is huge, larger than states. If you were ESL student in states, would you study in NYC, LA, Chicago, Boston, etc. etc....each area has their own 'accent' and one could argue dialect (ha ha).

In Shanghai, the level of putonghua, at least by service industries (hotels, restaurants, even taxi drivers) is quite good. Yes, when among friends they'll speak local dialect but everyone else Mandarin. So that should not sway you from considering S.

At the end of the day, for learning to speak and only 2-3 months to invest, you can't go wrong with any of the locations (i.e. Taipei, Beijing, Shanghai)...if you enroll in a good program and have good teachers, then basically it depends on what you do with it outside of the school environment.

For instance, you could be learning in Shanghai and hook up with a group of people from Beijing....should that happen, trust me, you'll be learning their 'dialect'.

IMHO

I'd recommend Kunming, in Yuunan province. Its pleasant all year round, has a decently sized expat community, and is inexpensive.

BUT - check out http://www.chinese-forums.com - the issue of where to study is covered exhaustively. Its a great resource. Enjoy!

Taiwan everytime, it seems clear people who learn Chinese in taiwan fair better than those from mainland China, somehow seems you get understood better all over the place

Taiwan everytime, it seems clear people who learn Chinese in taiwan fair better than those from mainland China, somehow seems you get understood better all over the place

Interesting point. My first teacher was a Beijinger here in the US. Now I'm off to NTNU for the summer. :-)

I studied in Beijing for 9 months at the Beijing Language and Culture University. They are the Beijing school that specializes in teaching foreigners Chinese, hence there are more foreigners on this campus than any other school in China. Overall I found that they had a good program, especially for basic Chinese, and they definitely have the nicest on-campus accomidations of any of the other choices in Beijing. Definitely check it out I'm sure they have a website if you google it.

As far as the different sounding mandarin in different cities this should not affect your choice at all why? Because no matter where you go you're going to sound like a foreigner speaking Chinese! It won't matter if you roll the R at the end of "yidian" like the best Beijing taxi driver or if you pronounce the verb to be as "si" or "Shir"...people will understand you. Learning the old Characters is a pain and if you don't plan on reading Taiwanese or Hong Kong newspapers I'd say go for the much easier simplified...If they are good enough for 1.3 billion people, they're good enough for you!

Go to what you consider the most interesteing city and enjoy your time there...its only a summer you ain't gonna become fluent so you might as well enjoy yourself. People on the mainland make fun of Taiwanese mandarin and vice versa...but they all understand each other when (and if) they speak to each other.

For my money I'd choose Beijing because of it's fast pace, exciting nightlife, and cheap food/lodging compared with Taipei. Taipei simply isn't as "hot" now as Beijing and not as interesting and a heck of a lot more expensive.

Enjoy your trip and good luck with the language study.

add my vote for bj. the r's aren't that tough to figure out (you can pretty much add them at will) and summer is great here. just be prepared to learn korean in addition to chinese because those guys increasinly rule wudaoko.

Beijing Language and Culture University (http://www.blcu.edu.cn)
ding, ding, ding - we have a winner! ^

I just spent about 15 minutes on the phone with one of their admissions advisors, and I'm going to FedEx over an application on Tuesday. I made a thorough review of Peking, Tsinghua, Beijing Normal, Taiwan Normal, Beijing L&C and a number of private institutions. For a number of reasons, BLCU was the perfect match (timing, visas, level of study, length of program, etc.). I’m going to do an 8-week program from June 29 – August 30, with a one week break in the middle.

I’m at an “Advanced Beginner” type level (about 400-500 characters & I can string together a few sentences/phrases), and I want to solidify that and bring myself up to a strong 800+ character level by the end of the summer in time for my fall classes. I’ll be spending most of the next 6 weeks in Sacramento, and I’ve re-hired my old Chinese tutor/instructor to spend four hours/week (two 2-hour sessions) with me to get me geared up for arrival.

Questions

• single room is being offered at 126 RMB/day ($110 USD/week), should I stay with the on-campus lodging, or look to rent an apartment for two months?
• Is there an easy way to get a multiple-entry visa? I would like to fly back to the U.S. during the one-week break. I’ve also heard that there is a new 24-month/multiple entry visa – any details on how to get one?

Thanks, Ken.

• single room is being offered at 126 RMB/day ($110 USD/week), should I stay with the on-campus lodging, or look to rent an apartment for two months?


operating under the assumption that you are above the normal college age, i would at least make an attempt to find an apartment. they are cheap and there are lots in the area, some of which are nice. if you want, feel free to pm me and i will ask my friends up there to keep their eyes open.


• Is there an easy way to get a multiple-entry visa? I would like to fly back to the U.S. during the one-week break. I’ve also heard that there is a new 24-month/multiple entry visa – any details on how to get one


assuming you've been to china a handful of times in the past, it's not that difficult to get a 12-month in the us (a 12-month tourist visa requires no documentation in practice; for a business visa, you'd need to get an invitation letter or fabricate one).

otherwise, you can go to hk first and get a visa there. agents in hk can issue 6-month and 12-month business visas; they take care of the invitatioin letter.

24-month visas issued in the US seem to require a past 12-month visa with a few entries.

of course, there are exceptions to all these rules.

Interesting point. My first teacher was a Beijinger here in the US. Now I'm off to NTNU for the summer. :-)

I'm here now. Excellent school.

Ken,

I'm glad you chose the BLCU, I think you'll have a great time there as well as learn Chinese. If I were you I'd look for an apartment off campus in the Wudaoko area, although you might have problems renting one for only 2 months. If you can't I'd go for the single room in the newest dorm they have I hear its quite nice.

Remember the best way to learn Chinese is to use Chinese whenever and wherever you can, its actually a pretty easy language to learn to speak, writing is another matter entirely!

A coworker's 21 yr old son has signed up for a 2 week program in Beijing (held at Peking Univ) from Aug 12 - 28 but he has to make his own living arrangements. Unclear if there is on campus housing for him. Would welcome any leads or suggestions for nearby housing. Can he find something decent for under USD $500? Any tips to provide him would be appreciated.
TF

A coworker's 21 yr old son has signed up for a 2 week program in Beijing (held at Peking Univ) from Aug 12 - 28 but he has to make his own living arrangements. Unclear if there is on campus housing for him. Would welcome any leads or suggestions for nearby housing. Can he find something decent for under USD $500? Any tips to provide him would be appreciated.
TF

I'm actually going to be studying at BeiDa (common name for Peking/Beijing Univ) this summer. If you're not in a rush, I'm happy to get some details for you when I arrive at the end of May.

I'm actually going to be studying at BeiDa (common name for Peking/Beijing Univ) this summer. If you're not in a rush, I'm happy to get some details for you when I arrive at the end of May.

That would be much appreciated. I would note that he does not speak Chinese.

TF

A coworker's 21 yr old son has signed up for a 2 week program in Beijing (held at Peking Univ) from Aug 12 - 28 but he has to make his own living arrangements.

Two weeks and they can't give him a dorm! I would press them a little harder.

Assuming you still come up empty, check out the classifieds on thatsbj.com and maybe craigslist.

Worst case scenario, there are lots of hotels in the area (Wudaokou Binguan comes to mind) that don't don't cost a whole lot more than the dorms.

Two weeks and they can't give him a dorm! I would press them a little harder.

Assuming you still come up empty, check out the classifieds on thatsbj.com and maybe craigslist.

Worst case scenario, there are lots of hotels in the area (Wudaokou Binguan comes to mind) that don't don't cost a whole lot more than the dorms.

Thanks I'll suggest that though I have the impression his program is at/near the U but is sponsored by another college. Another question: option for travel to/from airport to Univ. area?

TF

Another question: option for travel to/from airport to Univ. area?


There are definitely busses, but I think I'd go with a taxi if it was my first trip to China.

There are definitely busses, but I think I'd go with a taxi if it was my first trip to China.
Heck, I think I'd go with taxi on my 50th or 60th trip to China :D The cost from the airport to the university is ~80-100rmb, depending on traffic, which is about $10-$13usd.

For my money I'd choose Beijing because of it's fast pace, exciting nightlife, and cheap food/lodging compared with Taipei. Taipei simply isn't as "hot" now as Beijing and not as interesting and a heck of a lot more expensive.


I'd personally disagree, even though I haven't been to Beijing in over a year. Have you seen footage of for example Taipei101 at New Year's? There's plenty of K-tv and nightlife in Taipei; there's still plenty of businesses & city-things, and a new bullet-train was just completed to connect Taipei to the rest of the country. Beijing is supposedly under a lot of construction for the Olympics, yes, but Taipei's still a great city.

If you learn Chinese in Beijing, people will definitely know you learned it there. If you learn it in Shanghai or Taiwan or elsewhere, people will more likely have trouble guessing where you learned.

Beijing is supposedly under a lot of construction for the Olympics, yes, but Taipei's still a great city.


Believe it or not, Beijing is already a lot nicer than it was a year ago, much less 5. The construction that has been the source of a substantial amount of pollution and annoyance is finally starting to wind down. I think I've seen more blue sky days during the past 3 months than in all of 2004.


If you learn Chinese in Beijing, people will definitely know you learned it there.


IMO 儿话 is a lot easier to drop when traveling in other parts of the Mandarin speaking world than it is to learn. Keep in mind that a substantial portion of China's news is broadcast from Beijing by Beijing natives, who speak pretty much sans accent.


If you learn it in Shanghai or Taiwan or elsewhere, people will more likely have trouble guessing where you learned.


I can almost always pick out someone who learned Chinese in Taiwan due to their annoying tendency to pronounce "sh" as "s"; the English word "sissy" provides an apropriate, if un-PC, description.

That said, I find that Taiwanese living in the PRC long-term do a pretty good job at assimilation, largely due to the fact that they don't enjoy the daily political debates with cabbies that a Taiwanese accent begs.