This is a first for me.

Half way during my PHX-SLC flight tonight, this woman pulled out her cell phone and started making phone calls. Apparently, it worked. The flight attendant stopped her.

After the flight, I asked her "what were you thinking". She said she didn't know. The whole thing seemed like a joke for her. Strange. Who doesn't know that? She was in first but also traveling with a pillow (the kind you use on your bed). She is an American (not a language issue) and does not seem to have any mental problems.

I know this probably does not affect safety but it is sort of amazing that people would do this.

This is a first for me.

Half way during my PHX-SLC flight tonight, this woman pulled out her cell phone and started making phone calls. Apparently, it worked. The flight attendant stopped her.

After the flight, I asked her "what were you thinking". She said she didn't know. The whole thing seemed like a joke for her. Strange. Who doesn't know that? She was in first but also traveling with a pillow (the kind you use on your bed). She is an American (not a language issue) and does not seem to have any mental problems.

I know this probably does not affect safety but it is sort of amazing that people would do this.

I'm amazed a cell would work at FL 350. Perhaps this deranged woman is the victim of too many hot pockets and apple cobbler over the years.

Considering that on average I find Americans to be quite...stupid. I've always wondered why newspapers are written at an 8th grade level. :td:

Please note...I'm an American.

Considering that on average I find Americans to be quite...stupid. I've always wondered why newspapers are written at an 8th grade level. What does that observation have to do with this topic? :confused:

Considering that on average I find Americans to be quite...stupid. I've always wondered why newspapers are written at an 8th grade level

Huh ? :confused:

Actually it does interfere much more than previously thought. (Navigation and Communication, oh and a cell that was on in a suit case in the baggage hold once started the fire extinguisher system in the hold when it received a call ...

With nothing in the way to block the signal, a cell tower easily can reach upwards of 40,000 feet. There is persistent wishful thinking that the FAA is considering allowing cell phones to be used while cruising. I don't put much stock in it, even though the EEs at work insist that the interference risk exists only during landing and takeoff operations.

edit: see above post by roundtheworld, maybe there really was consideration of allowing cells to be used, and a decision not to. interesting.

Actually it does interfere much more than previously thought. (Navigation and Communication, oh and a cell that was on in a suit case in the baggage hold once started the fire extinguisher system in the hold when it received a call ...

Could you please cite a source for this? Thanks!

I don't know about roundtheworld's source but using a cell phone in flight happened to make it to an episode of MythBusters on the Discovery Channel. They found the following:

In a test rig, using their home built flightdesk in a ferriday cage and a device that generated test signals, GSM 850 & 900 caused a deflection to the needle on the navigational system. GSM 1900 had no affect.

When they tried to scale it up and took their test rig to SFO their home built flightdesk couldn't get a steady lock on SFO's navigational beacon, without any type of cell phone being used.

They they tried it in a plane, parked at SFO. The plane's flight deck didn't do anything even when they bombarded the system with 100x what a cell phone could put out.

They wanted to try it inflight but they couldn't, since they said it was against FAA regulations.

My friend's 80 year old mother used her cell phone in flight a few weeks ago to call her. Her flight was about to land and she called her daughter (my friend) to tell her she was almost on the ground. My friend told her to end the call NOW and shut off the phone when she found out she was still in the air. :D The mother had no clue she couldn't use the phone in flight. :eek:

With nothing in the way to block the signal, a cell tower easily can reach upwards of 40,000 feet. There is persistent wishful thinking that the FAA is considering allowing cell phones to be used while cruising. I don't put much stock in it, even though the EEs at work insist that the interference risk exists only during landing and takeoff operations.

edit: see above post by roundtheworld, maybe there really was consideration of allowing cells to be used, and a decision not to. interesting.

One of the problems is that from the vantage point of tens of thousand of feet altitude, the signal reaches many more towers than it would on land. The whole basis of the "cell" system is that cells are limited in size. Since there are a fixed number of usable frequencies in the cell phone ranges, by using "cells" rather than one big antenna in the middle of town, the same frequency can be used in different areas that are relatively nearby, thereby making efficient use of the limited RF bandwidth. Airplane use of cell phones does not play well with this system. That is why in addition to any FAA limitations, the FCC also does not allow it. (cite) (http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html)

As this reference mentions, any future use of cell phones in flight would be done by having an antenna onboard, and making the plane it's own "cell". The onboard equipment would then make use of some other satellite or ground based radio communication method to deliver the calls to the phone network.

Originally, the UK ban was on the basis that too many stations would see the phone and the phone companies did not have the software to work out which one to talk to.

There are reported cases of cargo hold fire detectors going of in DHC 8-400s on a routine basis at the start of the Q400 era. The 146 suffers from fuel gauge interference. There were some reported undemanded roll inputs on 737-200 autopilots. And there is some, or can be, some intereference with GPS receivers in aircraft. However, almost every flight will have someone who forgets to switch off their phone on it. We have not been losing hundreds of aircraft a day over the last few years.

However, receiver sensitivity is quite high for autoland functions. Still, nobody has fallen off the runway during a CAT III rollout either.

And another data point. Here (http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report_sets/ped.pdf) is a sample of 50 representative reports from NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System (ASRS) regarding Personal Electronic Devices. While quite a few of these are just reports of people not turning off phones when told to, with no obvious problems caused, there are several that pretty strongly indicate that cell phones and other PEDs can cause problems.

Acutally, I'll be the first to admit it, I regularly forget to turn off my phone.. especially on night flights, when I am exhausted and get on the plane and fall asleep.

I know i should try harder to turn it off, and I do try to remember, but sometimes it just slips my mind.

I have not EVER, however, attempted to use my phone at altitutde.

The strangest thing I find is that they don't allow you to use your cell phones in flight, but they do allow you to use say an iPod, yet when you land and are taxiing, you can use the cell phone, but not the iPod.

I know some pilots who fly corporate planes and they use their cell phones in flight all the time. They say it has no effect at all on anything.

Could you please cite a source for this? Thanks!

Why bother with a source when unfounded statements are much more fun?

My last DEN-MDW flight, I was next to a young lady who text messaged the whole flight. interference or other aircraft trouble were certainly not a concern of hers (or me).

I don't know about roundtheworld's source but using a cell phone in flight happened to make it to an episode of MythBusters on the Discovery Channel. They found the following:

In a test rig, using their home built flightdesk in a ferriday cage and a device that generated test signals, GSM 850 & 900 caused a deflection to the needle on the navigational system. GSM 1900 had no affect.

When they tried to scale it up and took their test rig to SFO their home built flightdesk couldn't get a steady lock on SFO's navigational beacon, without any type of cell phone being used.

They they tried it in a plane, parked at SFO. The plane's flight deck didn't do anything even when they bombarded the system with 100x what a cell phone could put out.

They wanted to try it inflight but they couldn't, since they said it was against FAA regulations.

I saw this episode. They concluded that the shielding on the planes instrumentation protected it from the cell signals. So if they planes shielding was damaged a cell phone would affect the navigation equipment. I have accidentally left my phone on before but I have never made a call from it. If I really NEED to make a call I'll use the Airfone for .10 per minute / no connection fee.

My last DEN-MDW flight, I was next to a young lady who text messaged the whole flight. interference or other aircraft trouble were certainly not a concern of hers (or me).

Please explain clearly to me about cellphone rules during the in-flight? FAA policy doesn't allowed to use the cellphone for during the flight. I caught with the birds on the air. It may cause to get problems of cellphone on the airplanes. Then, they should be wait for landing in the cities.

And another data point. Here (http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report_sets/ped.pdf) is a sample of 50 representative reports from NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System (ASRS) regarding Personal Electronic Devices. While quite a few of these are just reports of people not turning off phones when told to, with no obvious problems caused, there are several that pretty strongly indicate that cell phones and other PEDs can cause problems.

I glanced through the first few where there was speculation that a device might have done something and stopped reading. None of these stories offered any conclusive proof that a personal electronic device was to blame, only speculation. How many times have there been issues like those documented here where there was no convenient PED to blame? Quite a few, I'd suspect. ;)

Considering that on average I find Americans to be quite...stupid. I've always wondered why newspapers are written at an 8th grade level. :td:

Please note...I'm an American.

Your findings are worng and proven to be so.
Pls read:
"michael moore is a big fat white stupid american"

Note: im not american.

it is funny, becuase while traveling on a prvt jet the pilot said feel free to use your cell phone all you want, Im still alive, nothing happened to the nav system that made him take back what he said. so. . . who's right? who's wrong?

The Federal Aviation Administration does not expressly prohibit cell phone usage in flight. The FAA does prohibit the use of electronic devices that have not been approved by the carrier (i.e., the airline). The effect is that the carrier assumes the liability if they allow you to use an electronic device in flight and it creates problems. The FAA will say to the carrier, "You authorized it--we didn't."

Cell phones probably don't cause any problems with in-flight avionics. But the carriers take the safe route and deny usage of any transmitters since they can't prove they are safe. If in-flight cell phone usage is ultimately permitted (I hope not), as another poster stated, the connection will be with an on-board cell phone repeater. There will be a surcharge to connect to that repeater, and I hope they make the fee quite high. I'm not sure how they prohibit direct air-to-ground connections, but they must have some technology that will allow them to do so.

So how is cell phone usage presently legally prohibited? It's a Federal Communications Commission regulation and is in place for the reason already cited: the signal hits too many towers on the grounds and screws-up the system.

That FCC regulation applies equally to commercial and private aircraft. The pilots on the private jets are just violating the regulations. Doesn't it make you wonder that, if they are willing to violate those regulations, there might be other safety oriented regulations they are ignoring because they don't think they are important?

I am certain that cell phones are left on during virtually every flight. I find it hard to believe they interfere with anything or we would have many reports of navigational problems.

QL

What does that observation have to do with this topic? :confused:
It means a lot of americans although educated...still can't read.

The strangest thing I find is that they don't allow you to use your cell phones in flight, but they do allow you to use say an iPod, yet when you land and are taxiing, you can use the cell phone, but not the iPod.

I once asked about that, and the explanation was that if there is an emergency, you would still be able to hear instructions when using a cell phone, but not with an iPod. I had never even thought of that, although it makes perfect sense.

Mike

[QUOTE=djk7]One of the problems is that from the vantage point of tens of thousand of feet altitude, the signal reaches many more towers than it would on land. The whole basis of the "cell" system is that cells are limited in size. Since there are a fixed number of usable frequencies in the cell phone ranges, by using "cells" rather than one big antenna in the middle of town, the same frequency can be used in different areas that are relatively nearby, thereby making efficient use of the limited RF bandwidth. Airplane use of cell phones does not play well with this system. That is why in addition to any FAA limitations, the FCC also does not allow it. (cite) (http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html)


This is absultely correct. The real issue is not the FAA and saftey but the FCC and it's effect on the ground. Currently a 100 people flying across country using thier cell phones would knock Hundreds of calls ofF from each cell they could reach. The only way it gets (FCC) approved is if the A/C is it's own cell. On the FAA front I see an issue of rude passengers and "Phone Rage" possible being an issue to, the main reason the AFA is opposed. Those two big issue's and no real clamering to get cell use approved I don't see it happening any time soon.

Used to call my wife on approach to let her know we're landing and to come get me. Haven't done it in a few years, no empty rows to hide in. :eek:

I don't know about roundtheworld's source but using a cell phone in flight happened to make it to an episode of MythBusters on the Discovery Channel. They found the following:

In a test rig, using their home built flightdesk in a ferriday cage and a device that generated test signals, GSM 850 & 900 caused a deflection to the needle on the navigational system. GSM 1900 had no affect.

When they tried to scale it up and took their test rig to SFO their home built flightdesk couldn't get a steady lock on SFO's navigational beacon, without any type of cell phone being used.

They they tried it in a plane, parked at SFO. The plane's flight deck didn't do anything even when they bombarded the system with 100x what a cell phone could put out.

They wanted to try it inflight but they couldn't, since they said it was against FAA regulations.

And they tested on an almost brand new plane with an extreme amount of shielding. Thinking a lot of the jets we fly on are a lot older and have a lot less wire shielding and are much more likely to react closer to what they found in the lab!

I know there are many that dont believe there can be any effect, but try setting your phone by your computer or tv and watch the interference when it rings. No it will NOT knock the plane out of the air, but it definitely could interfere with radio communication or GPS readings momentarily.

Well, being a former ATC I kow that the cell signal can jack with the nav equipment, but the whole 'no battery powered' electronics is a bit bogus from my former training.

Well, being a former ATC I kow that the cell signal can jack with the nav equipment, but the whole 'no battery powered' electronics is a bit bogus from my former training.

Then you should know that the power radiated by a cell phone in the far field (about 1 meter or less) from the phone is for all purposes zero in the cell phone's operating frequency and is even less in the harmonics (multiples of the frequency) where the aircraft's navigation and communication systems operate.

In short, the only way a cell phone is possibly going to interfere is to put it next to the piece of equipment with which it might interfere and start transmitting.

In the passenger cabin, it's truly a non-issue from a safety perspective.

I do not have a degree in electrical engineering, so this is solely from my own experience flying.

Many cell phones do not seem to have any effect on the equipment up front, but there's a fairly large number of cell phones that can and do cause interference on the radio. Generally the phones have to be pretty close to the radio equipment in the cockpit to cause interference, but I've been told that if a phone in the back is in close proximity to wiring in the fuselage it can also cause interference.

I have directly observed the radio interference from phones in the cockpit. A few years ago when I was instructing in light aircraft flying VFR at low altitudes, people often kept their cell phones on. Some didn't cause any problems, but some of my students had phones that would cause all kinds of buzzing over the headsets and even small jumps in the navigation needles (which I've never seen happen on a modern jet aircraft). Even in modern jets, when we're on the ground and a phone in the cockpit goes off, it's likely to cause interference.

Just a few weeks ago, on descent we started picking up very heavy interference on the radio. It was loud and strong enough that we were having problems hearing ATC. We asked the FA to ask if anyone had a cell phone on. Sure enough, someone in the first row had accidentally turned the cell phone feature on their PDA/phone on and it was apparently close enough to the cockpit to cause problems when it received a call. The person apologized, turned the device off and our interference problem vanished.

If the cell phone presented a safety hazard it should not be allowed on board. I assume this has been examined by the nail scissor inspection group. Would a group of terrorists get on board and then screw the plane by turning on their cell phones? Since there is nothing stopping anyone from using it except a rule, then it can't be a danger in reality. Or the security mavens overlooked this one and Osama is out buying cell phones that give out big signals.

I don't think phones are dangerous in flight, but they can be extremely annoying and distracting if the phone is close enough to the equipment. Are they going to crash the plane? Of course not. We can navigate and land in busy airspace even with a total radio failure, so radio interference from a phone isn't something I would call a serious threat to flight safety. Still, knowing that a phone can cause headaches in the cockpit, I don't know why anyone would intentionally leave it on.

I know some pilots who fly corporate planes and they use their cell phones in flight all the time. They say it has no effect at all on anything.


When I was a corporate pilot, I used it all the time. Now that I flew B747 I still do.

It has absolutely no affect on the aircraft.

I do not have a degree in electrical engineering, so this is solely from my own experience flying.

Many cell phones do not seem to have any effect on the equipment up front, but there's a fairly large number of cell phones that can and do cause interference on the radio. Generally the phones have to be pretty close to the radio equipment in the cockpit to cause interference, but I've been told that if a phone in the back is in close proximity to wiring in the fuselage it can also cause interference.

I have directly observed the radio interference from phones in the cockpit. A few years ago when I was instructing in light aircraft flying VFR at low altitudes, people often kept their cell phones on. Some didn't cause any problems, but some of my students had phones that would cause all kinds of buzzing over the headsets and even small jumps in the navigation needles (which I've never seen happen on a modern jet aircraft). Even in modern jets, when we're on the ground and a phone in the cockpit goes off, it's likely to cause interference.

Just a few weeks ago, on descent we started picking up very heavy interference on the radio. It was loud and strong enough that we were having problems hearing ATC. We asked the FA to ask if anyone had a cell phone on. Sure enough, someone in the first row had accidentally turned the cell phone feature on their PDA/phone on and it was apparently close enough to the cockpit to cause problems when it received a call. The person apologized, turned the device off and our interference problem vanished.

Which aircraft have wiring in the fuselage that is in the passenger cabin?

I'd be very pleased to perform the "cell phone on" test and see if there is any noticable interference. I don't think there's any conclusive evidence that a cell phone 1+ meter away from the electronic equipment in question is going to cause any noticable nterference.

Wiring runs the entire length of the fuselage, but the avionics equipment is mostly contained in the forward bays of most aircraft.

Again, I don't think that it's a serious safety concern, but the interference is an annoyance over the headset. I have never seen anything but a cell phone cause interference, and I've never observed a cell phone do more than cause an obnoxious buzz on the headset. Many phones don't even do that. It's also true that the phone has to be pretty close to the equipment. I honestly didn't think that even the first row was close enough before my incident a few weeks ago. So no, it's not a serious risk by any means, but since they do have an effect under the right conditions, it's only right to turn them off. Personally, when I fly for fun under VFR below 10,000 (when there's no cell phone restriction), I use my phone to make calls all the time without hearing a peep of interference. Even though mine doesn't seem to cause any buzzing, I still always make sure it's turned off in flight so I don't annoy the other pilot.

It has absolutely no affect on the aircraft.
Might not have an effect on the aircraft, but atleast in with GSM networks a few hundred high-altitude-and-fast-moving phones that constantly change network cells (because they can see them all from above + the plane moves fast) will kill the ground network...

In addition, if a phone moves at around 150 km/h relative to the ground station the timing of the GSM packets is disturbed by the Doppler effect, and you will loose contact. (This can also be a problem on fast moving trains when the network cell is placed very close to the rail line.)

Let me say something.

One time flying from PHL-SAN on an a321 aboard US Airways, I forgot to turn on my cell, since i was rushing to catch my connection, from the whole situation i forgot to turn of my cell. 6hrs later I was in San Diego trying to call, realizing I didnt have to turn on my cell. The entire 6 hours, the pilot did not announce anything about disturbances, the F/A's said nothing, so obviously nothing happened. I personally dont want people calling inflight, because it would so annyoing having a ton of people talking about BS or no BS on such long flights!

As this reference mentions, any future use of cell phones in flight would be done by having an antenna onboard, and making the plane it's own "cell". The onboard equipment would then make use of some other satellite or ground based radio communication method to deliver the calls to the phone network.

That sounds to me like something an airline/mobile service provider could team up with and charge alot for. I'm surprised they are not all over it trying to make it happen.

I leave my phone on all the time (not intentionally - just forget to look for it and shut it off). Never had any problems, save for one flight:

A 3 hour departure delay (after boarding, of course) on an AA LAX-MIA 767 while mechanics changed multiple tires. Apparently, removing a tire often causes the others to go flat as well.

Anyway, a phone rings intermittently while we sit at the gate. The panicked FAs search frantically for the phone and then locate it: In my jacket pocket - my jacket has been hung up in a closet. Several of them deliver my ringing jacket to me and proceed to give me a dressing down about the terrible dangers of a cell phone not turned off.

Had the trip to London not been really important, I would have said something. But I just took their abuse.

Yes, cell phones inflight would attempt to contact too many cells simultaneously - not an ideal situation. But they don't impact the navigation equipment of the aircraft any more than do any other electronic devices.

Several of them deliver my ringing jacket to me and proceed to give me a dressing down about the terrible dangers of a cell phone not turned off.

I keep hoping someone will give me a "dressing down" about the terrible dangers of cell phones on aircraft because it's so hard to find someone who wants to discuss electromagnetic waves and antenna theory intelligently. :D

Constantine Balanis, where are you??? ;)

During my flight to Cleveland this monday, just as the flight safety recording got to the part about Cell Phones must be off and stay in the off posititon during the remainder - A woman's phone rang very loudly. It was one of those really annoying rings. Sure enough she answered it in full voice. Her conversation was personal and not at all of an urgent nature. The flight attendant who was standing 1 row in front of her looked at her with amazement. Many of us are on this flight together every Monday and we all starting laughing. It was the laughing that finally signalled the lady that maybe she was doing something unusual. But the flight attendant still had to tell her to HANG UP.

I have 2 cell phones (1 work/1 personal) and I always throw them in my laptop case while going through security. I rarely think to turn them off before boarding and seeing as my laptop is in the overhead and I'm half asleep w/ IPOD and headphones in place before the FA announcements commence I usually don't turn them off. However I had a little surprise somewhere between LAX and PHX a couple weeks back as a FA was tapping my shoulder to wake me up and ask me to turn off my cell phone (which they found ringing up in the overhead.) :o :o

Anyhow the flight was uneventful other than the interruption to my nap. The best part was when I asked her to hand me the other phone in the opposite pocket of my case as I'd probably forgotten to turn it off also...(didn't want a 2nd wake up)

I hope they don't ever allow calls in flight as I work for a company that'll expect me to make them, and I don't want to be that passenger.

I almost always fly commercial. About a year ago, I was in a LearJet between Seattle and Oakland. The pilot said I was welcome to use my mobile phone. Despite my best efforts, my phone would not lock onto a tower for a signal. I was using a Nokia 3650 and T-Mobile, fyi.

I know some pilots who fly corporate planes and they use their cell phones in flight all the time. They say it has no effect at all on anything.