Just got an e-mail from Westjet about a new "limited time" pass they are offering in the toronto/Ottawa/Montreal corridor. They don't have Ac's frequency, but this could make life interesting:

Introducing the WestJet Travel Pass*! For just $1200 including all taxes, fees and surcharges, you get 10 one-way flights between Toronto and Ottawa and Toronto and Montréal. Don’t delay, this is a limited time offer. WestJet’s convenient travel passes are only available for purchase until April 28 for travel until August 31, 2006. You can share them with others, but at these prices you’ll want to keep them for yourself!

Why purchase a WestJet Travel Pass?

You’re guaranteed a seat-sale price every time. Fly one-way for an average price of $120 including all taxes, fees and surcharges.

Flights are fully transferable. Purchase a WestJet Travel Pass and share it with up to 9 other people. Plus, two or more people can travel together at the same time.

Business-friendly flight schedule. WestJet’s schedule between Toronto and Montréal and Toronto and Ottawa offers convenient flight times for the business traveller.

We don’t overbook our flights. At WestJet, if you’ve booked your flight, you’re guaranteed a seat.

Unlimited flight changes. Reschedule your flight for free up until 2 hours before your flight time.

No booking restrictions or blackout dates. Travel any day of the week until August 31, 2006. If there’s only one seat available on a WestJet flight, it’s yours!

I can't wait for AC to match :D

Posted here already and moved to the WS forum.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=545127

=aw

Posted here already and moved to the WS forum.


The pass thing is a novelty. There's nothing particulary special about it, it's simply another way of offering discounts.

PWA did it for years on YEG-YYC.

What's interesting is that the highest cost producer has attempted to set fares. Now the lowest cost producer has weighed in, and although I haven't looked at the various offers, I'll bet WJ has made use of it's much lower cost structure to make a mockery of AC's offers.

This will probably be rolled out across the network one after one, neutralizing the offers one by one until eventually, the "flight pass" concept as a marketing tool disappears.

With ACE's cost structure, they simply cannot get into a long term price war in key markets with WJA and expect to be even remotely profitable.

Does AC actually issue paper with it's passes? You can bet that WJ's will be 100% electronic. Handling paper costs money.

;)

As cargoagent said, the discussion has been moved to http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=545127

=aw

The pass thing is a novelty. There's nothing particulary special about it, it's simply another way of offering discounts.

No one has done in the manner AC has.....SAS has started offering some and there are ten or so other airlines around the world looing at AC's pass systems.

What's interesting is that the highest cost producer has attempted to set fares. Now the lowest cost producer has weighed in, and although I haven't looked at the various offers, I'll bet WJ has made use of it's much lower cost structure to make a mockery of AC's offers.


If you call less than $100 net per segment responding to lower cost I've got a bridge to sell you. WS has clearly been losing their ... on the Eastern triangle to do this so cheaply. AC may not need to do much as thye already have business passes for rapidair that are already pretty cheap and transferable among 8 employees. AC also has the capacity to absorb the cheap passes with all their frequencies while Wetjet hasn't got the frequencies to keep up. Your asm/casm/prasm and spasm charts won't work here.

This will probably be rolled out across the network one after one, neutralizing the offers one by one until eventually, the "flight pass" concept as a marketing tool disappears.

With ACE's cost structure, they simply cannot get into a long term price war in key markets with WJA and expect to be even remotely profitable.

Does AC actually issue paper with it's passes? You can bet that WJ's will be 100% electronic. Handling paper costs money.

;)

Isn't Westjet capable of doing anything that requires original thought instead of continually parasiting off of the ideas of its competitor?

The level on my WJ loatheometer has just risen again.

No one has done in the manner AC has.....SAS has started offering some and there are ten or so other airlines around the world looing at AC's pass systems.

Actually, even before 9/11, BD had something called a Routepass and in essence, it was pretty much the same thing as what AC is doing... Apparently it was pretty successful (but that's what I heard, but have no specific details, so it may very well be hearsay). So, the AC pass idea really isn't all that new...

Agreed BD's Routepass was a bit limited, but what would one expect with a smaller network?

Well, the *A Europe pass or America pass is similar in nature and the have been around a long time. Also, CX and MY has the Asia passes for a number of years too. Not an entirely new concept but more an adaptation of an existing product.

Actually, even before 9/11, BD had something called a Routepass and in essence, it was pretty much the same thing as what AC is doing... Apparently it was pretty successful (but that's what I heard, but have no specific details, so it may very well be hearsay). So, the AC pass idea really isn't all that new...

Agreed BD's Routepass was a bit limited, but what would one expect with a smaller network?


AC had rapidair passes in the 80's........but these are Etickets and offer a whole range of flights in a geographic area that hasn't been done before

Isn't Westjet capable of doing anything that requires original thought instead of continually parasiting off of the ideas of its competitor?

:rolleyes:

Posted here already and moved to the WS forum.

Same should be done with this thread

Isn't Westjet capable of doing anything that requires original thought instead of continually parasiting off of the ideas of its competitor?

The level on my WJ loatheometer has just risen again.

...and who introduced the one way pricing without stay over requirements that has dramatically cut your travel expenses over the past 10 years?

...and who was it that introduced 100% E ticketing first?

...and who copied YXX? YQQ? YYJ-YEG? YEG-YLW? YHM? YYC-Florida non-stops?

I could go on.......

Get real.......

;)

WJ, not AC has forced change in the marketplace.

...and who introduced the one way pricing without stay over requirements that has dramatically cut your travel expenses over the past 10 years?

...and who was it that introduced 100% E ticketing first?

...and who copied YXX? YQQ? YYJ-YEG? YEG-YLW? YHM? YYC-Florida non-stops?

I could go on.......

Get real.......

;)

WJ, not AC has forced change in the marketplace.

BS.........wetjet was just the first parasite carrier in the Canadian market who treated everyone as cattle.

BS.........wetjet was just the first parasite carrier in the Canadian market who treated everyone as cattle.


...and thats why it's the most profitable airline in Canada, is ranked # 1 in customer service and has grown at a rate about 25x faster than AC over the past 10 years.

You seemed even more frightened than usual today.

;)

I was referring to the main inspiration for Westjet's revenue which for a time was the load factor information on AC's confidential site.

Then this.

As for one-way pricing, that started in the US as far as network carriers go and with LCC's there. And if you care to go back a bit, Canada 3000 always offered it domestically.

Westjet having original ideas?!! Bah. Nothing that wasn't at first tried by Southwest or JetBlue.

As for using stats like a 25X growth factor, that is one of the worst kinds of mathematical misleading...along the lines of calling an airline the fastest growing airline if they grow from 2 planes to 3 and have grown by 50%. If AC grew 25X, you could ground every other airline in the world.

But you do seem to be rather well-informed, coffeebean.

I will grant you that WJ has forced changes in the marketplace, as did C3 and as did Jetsgo, but in Canada, AC invented the marketplace in the first instance and thus had changes to make when competitors came along with updated models. WJ started fresh with the Southwest concept.

And as for WJ introducing e-ticketing, they started up around the same time as e-ticketing and the Open Skies platform IIRC, so they had no changes to make, were part of no networks, had nothing invested in paper ticketing. This analogy isn't a fair one IMO.

As for airpasses, they are not new although most are not for domestic consumption. I know of at least 100 worldwide, but don't recall seeing domestic offerings marketed like those that AC has innovated. These are suited for countries with a large land mass and I can tell you that there are none in any similar countries or equivalent: Australia, the EU [equivalent of one country], Russia, China, India or the US.

AC invented the marketplace in the first instance and thus had changes to make when competitors came along with updated models. WJ started fresh with the Southwest concept.

The historic AC is a product of the federal gov't and the fed's made sure there wasn't a truly competitive marketplace until the late 80's. Since 1987, when PWA bought CPAir and more, the airline marketplace in Canada has undergone a huge transition. In fact, if you consider both the privatization and subsequent recent restructuring of AC into ACE, there isn't a single significant air carrier from 1988 still in existence in Canada today. AC got a fresh start more recently than Westjet on a corporate level even though the brand is much older.

I don't think the airline sector represents a market with a recent history of well-defined business models that last more than a few years. Westjet only remotely resembles Southwest now and AC is certainly not the same creature it was when in the peak of competition with CP/Canadian. I've read lots of comments on this forum questioning if and how Westjet is sticking to its model. But, I believe the important question, from an investor's perspective, is how are AC and Westjet evolving their respective businesses through a set of long-term strategic and short-term tactical plans. If the plan is to stick to a fixed model, no matter what, sell those shares now.

...and thats why it's the most profitable airline in Canada, is ranked # 1 in customer service and has grown at a rate about 25x faster than AC over the past 10 years.


;)
The last claim over growth is dubious.

10 years ago, AC has ~200 planes. 10 years ago, WS had 3.

[QUOTE]AC got a fresh start more recently than Westjet on a corporate level even though the brand is much older.

The fresh start was the result of a needed cleanup for the major carrier based on years of poor regulatory management and a poor competitive arena. WJA is really just a rebirth of PWA.


But, I believe the important question, from an investor's perspective, is how are AC and Westjet evolving their respective businesses through a set of long-term strategic and short-term tactical plans. If the plan is to stick to a fixed model, no matter what, sell those shares now.

I hope sme of the whiners who continuously complai about AC's evolving FF program are reading this. They expect the same benefits when fares are about half of what thye were six seven years ago.

The fresh start was the result of a needed cleanup for the major carrier based on years of poor regulatory management and a poor competitive arena. WJA is really just a rebirth of PWA.

Poor regulatory management? What's that - excuse #172? :rolleyes:

Air Canada needed a fresh start because it was an inefficient, high-cost business. It's model, strategy, and structure was simply obsolete.

Air Canada needed a fresh start because it was an inefficient, high-cost business. It's model, strategy, and structure was simply obsolete.
Yup! And now they price match WS and have been selected as the top airline in North America, not to mention pioneering passes and an exceptional booking system that allows an easy selection of ALL fare groups, not to mention that they will become the first mainline airline in North America to have PTVs fleet wide. All without a single cent of bailout money during CCAA. Considering how down and out AC was, WS should have been able to take AC out over the last few years.

[QUOTE]Poor regulatory management? What's that - excuse #172? :rolleyes:

OF COURSE WORKING THE RAMP YOU MAY NOT HAVE EVER HEARD OF THE AIR CANADA ACT THat RESTRICTS AC FROM DOING A LOT OF EFFICIENT STUFF.

Air Canada needed a fresh start because it was an inefficient, high-cost business. It's model, strategy, and structure was simply obsolete.

If the truth were really known AC's takeout of CP allowed WJA to flourish for a few years until they went through CCAA, restructured CP's debt effectively and got needed union concessions.
Now that they are on their feet and working on only 6 out of 8 cylinders your profits have tanked and you're feeling the heat like you've never felt it since the airline started. Of course there is room for two airlines but Clive now knows he has to work pretty damn hard to comptete and his cocky attitude has taken a hit not only from the competition but from being caught as a crook.

When the other two cylinders are working at full tilt(new seats and new planes all delivered) in about a year or so they will have 46 ERJ's all with J class and seat back avod,etc running all over the place on routes wetjet could only have wet dreams for. That plus Jazz running right sized planes for each market will see AC become quite profitable.
They don't have to buy market share like wetjet does with passes significantly below cost either. $85 net a segment isn't going to help your bonuses which seem to be going the way of the dodo bird in any event.

[QUOTE=Hypnotize]

OF COURSE WORKING THE RAMP YOU MAY NOT HAVE EVER HEARD OF THE AIR CANADA ACT THat RESTRICTS AC FROM DOING A LOT OF EFFICIENT STUFF.



If the truth were really known AC's takeout of CP allowed WJA to flourish for a few years until they went through CCAA, restructured CP's debt effectively and got needed union concessions.
Now that they are on their feet and working on only 6 out of 8 cylinders your profits have tanked and you're feeling the heat like you've never felt it since the airline started. Of course there is room for two airlines but Clive now knows he has to work pretty damn hard to comptete and his cocky attitude has taken a hit not only from the competition but from being caught as a crook.

When the other two cylinders are working at full tilt(new seats and new planes all delivered) in about a year or so they will have 46 ERJ's all with J class and seat back avod,etc running all over the place on routes wetjet could only have wet dreams for. That plus Jazz running right sized planes for each market will see AC become quite profitable.
They don't have to buy market share like wetjet does with passes significantly below cost either. $85 net a segment isn't going to help your bonuses which seem to be going the way of the dodo bird in any event.

Nope, excuse 9,000,000,002 and the usual delusional chant about "...it's all going to be better soon...." - :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=parnel]

Nope, excuse 9,000,000,002 and the usual delusional chant about "...it's all going to be better soon...." - :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Just because status quo is part of your vocabulary don't pin it on others...continuous improvement is a part of life.

[QUOTE=Hypnotize]

OF COURSE WORKING THE RAMP YOU MAY NOT HAVE EVER HEARD OF THE AIR CANADA ACT THat RESTRICTS AC FROM DOING A LOT OF EFFICIENT STUFF.



If the truth were really known AC's takeout of CP allowed WJA to flourish for a few years until they went through CCAA, restructured CP's debt effectively and got needed union concessions.
Now that they are on their feet and working on only 6 out of 8 cylinders your profits have tanked and you're feeling the heat like you've never felt it since the airline started. Of course there is room for two airlines but Clive now knows he has to work pretty damn hard to comptete and his cocky attitude has taken a hit not only from the competition but from being caught as a crook.

When the other two cylinders are working at full tilt(new seats and new planes all delivered) in about a year or so they will have 46 ERJ's all with J class and seat back avod,etc running all over the place on routes wetjet could only have wet dreams for. That plus Jazz running right sized planes for each market will see AC become quite profitable.
They don't have to buy market share like wetjet does with passes significantly below cost either. $85 net a segment isn't going to help your bonuses which seem to be going the way of the dodo bird in any event.

The CRJ's were supposed to be right sized, so were the 146's, the Dash 8 100's and 300's, and then there werer the 35 95 seat DC9's. They all had the right capacity back in the late 90's when fuel was in the teens.

Didn't quite work out the way that was planned, eh?

$120 a sector gross on sectors averageing 300 miles? With a 18 cent cost base, over that asl, that's a cost of $54 a seat. Even with a l/f 10 points below system, WJA can do this indefinitely.

Can't say the same about AC, though.

That's way casm, not counting cars in airport parking lots, is so important.

;)

It doesn't matter what the CASM is on routes that have approaching zero passengers, hence counting cars in parking lots worked fine for the routes that were all cancelled.

Again, in your desire to be disingeneous, you try to assert that this comment applied to WS entire structure, which it did not. Just the failed attempt to fly to non-four person leisure destinations.

Kind of like WS "counting" passengers boarding planes on AC's proprietary employee booking site.

Simon

[QUOTE=PunishedEdmontonian]


Just because status quo is part of your vocabulary don't pin it on others...continuous improvement is a part of life.

Just so to back you up, Parnel.. heres the url to prove it:

Air Canada Public Participation Act (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/A-10.1/text.html)

Proof after all, there IS an Air Canada Act.

Also note this article Air Canada Act implemented in 1977. (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780771056888&view=excerpt)

Sanosuke!

[QUOTE=parnel]

The fresh start was the result of a needed cleanup for the major carrier based on years of poor regulatory management and a poor competitive arena. WJA is really just a rebirth of PWA.
[QUOTE]


The point being that historically airlines don't survive as corporate entities for very long in Canada, other than AC's time as a crown corp. Cleanup, restructuring, merger, bankrupcy, are the legacy of almost every well-known name in Canadian aviation history.

WJA can't be a rebirth of PWA since PWA became Canadian Airlines International, which was swallowed by AC. :) Really, the establishment and evolution of PWA vs Westjet are very different. Other than for a brief period in the early 80's, with an all 737 fleet and then based in Calgary, the similarities are few.

All without a single cent of bailout money during CCAA. Considering how down and out AC was, WS should have been able to take AC out over the last few years.

Although there may not have been a "cent" of GOVERNMENT bailout money, I don't think the creditors, shareholders, lessors and employees would agree. I also seem to recall that GE Capital put in a fair bit of bailout money in exchange for which they were handsomely paid in terms of financing payments and future considerations (new aircraft with GE engines).

Although there may not have been a "cent" of GOVERNMENT bailout money, I don't think the creditors, shareholders, lessors and employees would agree. I also seem to recall that GE Capital put in a fair bit of bailout money in exchange for which they were handsomely paid in terms of financing payments and future considerations (new aircraft with GE engines).

GE also got burned on the CCAA side of things and forgave a large debt of past due lease payments IIRC.

I can confirm -- the government didn't give a penny to AC during CCAA. (However, I won't go further than that.)

[QUOTE=parnel]

Just so to back you up, Parnel.. heres the url to prove it:

Air Canada Public Participation Act (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/A-10.1/text.html)

Proof after all, there IS an Air Canada Act.

Also note this article Air Canada Act implemented in 1977. (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780771056888&view=excerpt)

Sanosuke!
Actually, the AC Act currently only applies to AC and not the whole ACE. So, technically...

But yes, for all intents and purposes, AC is pretty much bounded by it.

[QUOTE=Sanosuke]
Actually, the AC Act currently only applies to AC and not the whole ACE. So, technically...

But yes, for all intents and purposes, AC is pretty much bounded by it.

That's what the legislation below attempted to clarify but I guess it died at election time. The proposed legislation assumed that AC Public Participation Act continues to apply to AC (the airline) but not the rest of ACE. I think the chain of succession is even vaguer since the corporation (AC) that was continued from crown to a corporation under the Canada Business Corporations Act doesn't exist anymore. And without specific succession clauses in the Act, how does legislation targeted at a specific company continue to apply after that company is re-structured as a new entity?

http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/Bills_ls.asp?lang=E&Parl=38&Ses=1&ls=C47&source=Bills_House_Government