http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/060406/0121787.html

WestJet (Toronto:WJA.TO - News) today announced the launch of its new travel pass for return flights between Toronto and Ottawa and between Toronto and Montreal. This product is a first for the airline, which will provide guests with the flexibility of 10 one-way flights for $1,200 (including all taxes, fees and surcharges) for travel up to and including August 31, 2006.

"We invite all guests to take advantage of this great offer and choose WestJet when arranging travel plans," said Duncan Bureau, WestJet's Vice-President, Sales. "We are excited about the flexibility and convenience that this travel pass will give guests who want to fly between these important Canadian cities, whether it is for business or leisure travel.
--------------------------

Hey CB how can the asm/casm/prasm and spasm work when they don't have the frequencies to support these. If a whole bunch get sold below cost,which is the fare quoted, they will lose further revenue fom higher fares. Then again WJA is flying empty in the triangle.and further, they are selling 10 segments good only until Aug.31...which must their drop dead for continuing current service levels in the triangle.

This is what CB said about AC's passes, taken from the Oil Patch Pass thread.


I imagine WestJet will do the same thing it did when Canadian had every one locked into those books of tickets ten years ago.

The pass system is another method of discounting tickets. It's a yield erosive seat sale. No more, no less.
;)

I can hardly wait to see how he justifies this move by WS.

Shouldn't this be in the WJ forum??

Shouldn't this be in the WJ forum??


Exactly.Why do I care that Westjet has a pass system?They don't have service ex YSB ;)

Shouldn't this be in the WJ forum??


Harder to start an argument there?

Exactly.Why do I care that Westjet has a pass system?They don't have service ex YSB ;)

Or a J cabin, or a lounge system, or a FFP for that matter. Why are they even on FT? :D

Imitation is indeed the highest form of recognition.

Too funny. They aren't marketing it as aggressively as AC is.

One allows upgrades to biz, the other upgrades you to bulkhead if you ask nicely enough.

No one has mentioned that unlike AC's Passes, flights are fully transferable and the Pass may be shared with up to 9 other people and 2 or more people can travel together with the WS Pass. This is more flexible than AC.

https://c3dsp.westjet.com/guest/triPassForm.shtml

Not mentioned is that the WS travel pass is entirely phone based. The internet site will take the appropriate information to set up a pass, but the overall administration of picking flights and assigning seats happens over the phone.

From Today's AC Daily:

WestJet today announced the launch of a travel pass for return flights between Toronto and Ottawa and between Toronto and Montreal. This news demonstrates that our competition has learned what Air Canada's customers have known for some time now – that Air Canada's innovative flight passes work superbly for travellers. Air Canada launched its first travel pass for Rapidair customers in the Toronto/Montreal/Ottawa triangle in April 2004. Customer response has been strong from the onset and we now have 13 different types of passes in the marketplace, designed to meet the needs of individual customers and also for up to 300 travellers of the same company. We cover virtually every city we fly to in Canada and the U.S. with a flight pass – from Gander to Honolulu. We fully expect to continue to evolve the product to meet the needs of our customers.

Hmm $1,200 including all taxes (presumably that includes GST) versus $2,690 plus GST/QST for the AC pass.

If I was the corporate cost controller, you'd have a hard time justifying to me paying twice as much for a product only one person can use (albeit for a longer period) just because of AC's greater frequency.

Clearly a shot over AC's bow rather than an attempt to reward loyal WJ customers since it is not offered in the YEG/YYC/YVR triangle.

It will be interesting to see how much revenue this drains from AC's lucrative overpriced offering on the route.

From Today's AC Daily:

WestJet today announced the launch of a travel pass for return flights between Toronto and Ottawa and between Toronto and Montreal. This news demonstrates that our competition has learned what Air Canada's customers have known for some time now – that Air Canada's innovative flight passes work superbly for travellers. Air Canada launched its first travel pass for Rapidair customers in the Toronto/Montreal/Ottawa triangle in April 2004. Customer response has been strong from the onset and we now have 13 different types of passes in the marketplace, designed to meet the needs of individual customers and also for up to 300 travellers of the same company. We cover virtually every city we fly to in Canada and the U.S. with a flight pass – from Gander to Honolulu. We fully expect to continue to evolve the product to meet the needs of our customers.

Innovation?

How about the concept of low one way fares, with no stayover requirements?

100% E tickets?

Seatback IFE on virtually all domestic flights?

RNP navigation in Canada?

Blended winglets on the -700?

I could go on and on. The list is endless.

The flight pass concept is a novelty. There's nothing special about it, PWA was doing it for years in the mid 80's, except it was paper based.

WJA launches it, uses its lower cost base to neutralize it, as ACE will have to match it. ACE loses money on it, WJA makes money on it, ACE quietly withdraws it....it'll take about a year, just like all the other "permanent" initiatives we've seen over the years.

In a commodity business, the lowest cost producer dictates pricing. Until SWA raises fares, no one in the US dares raise fares. ACE has tried to mess with this.

WJ flew fuller airplanes than AC for the last couple of months, and with 50% of traffic touching YYZ, it sounds like the YYZ is doing what it was anticipated to do for WJ. It's early days, barely 2 years into the program. More to come.

Call it a net fare of $80 on an 316 mile sector? That's a yield of 25.3 cents a mile, not including surcharges, various other fee and a small amount of freight.

They won't make much, but they won't lose anything, given their casm over that distance of about 18 cents a mile.

Then there's AC with a casm over that sector of about 24 cents, and Jazz at about 26 cents. It'll be a mess when, not if, AC matches this. Every seat will be sold at a significant loss.

My guess is WJ will roll out these schemes, force AC to completely re-write their schemes, as those people who bought the ACE passes will be none to happy when they drop the pricing to match WJ.

It's been for this reason I've never thought the prepaid tix concept was very interesting. It is very easy to match, (and in WJ's case, 100% no paper). Rest assured, a high cost carrier does not want to get into a price war with a low cost carrier after already losing the cost war.

For the same reason, no one has bothered with these passes south of the border or in Europe. The moment SWA or Ryanair weighs in with their version, if they feel like it, it'll make the legacy carriers schemes look kind of foolish.

Leblanc thought his 2 fer 1 schemes were innovative too, but all they did, like the passes, is dilute yield and cause him to go banco. This is just more of the same, with a high cost carrier trying to lead low pricing.

The marketing folks like it, but finance will be shaking their heads.

;)

No one has mentioned that unlike AC's Passes, flights are fully transferable and the Pass may be shared with up to 9 other people and 2 or more people can travel together with the WS Pass. This is more flexible than AC.

https://c3dsp.westjet.com/guest/triPassForm.shtml


Small Business Pass
New zones, new pricing:
Welcome to the next generation in business travel for small-sized Enterprises


Now there’s a simpler, more convenient way for small-sized enterprises to book and manage business travel.

The Small Business Pass allows your enterprise to buy 30 flight credits at a time for specific geographic zones, which up to eight employees can use whenever they need to travel on business. What’s more, Flight Pass credits can be accessed and managed online 24/7 with ease.


Purchase this Flight Pass
Flight Pass Features
Take a Virtual Tour
FAQ

Air Canada’s Small Business Passes make volume purchasing easier while offering maximum administration flexibility.

Book, change or cancel flights online—with ease.
Enjoy flexibility, upgrades* and other benefits.
Get free online reporting to monitor and assess Flight Pass activity.
Passes are available for travel across Canada and between Canada and the U.S.
Register up to eight employees on the same Flight Pass.Which Small Business Pass is right for your small-sized enterprise?

Choose a single Small Business Pass or several Flight Passes depending on where your employees travel to the most. Our wide-ranging selection of Flight Passes has been customized to suit the needs of small to medium sized enterprises like yours.

Small Business Pass
New zones, new pricing:
Welcome to the next generation in business travel for small-sized Enterprises


Now there’s a simpler, more convenient way for small-sized enterprises to book and manage business travel.

The Small Business Pass allows your enterprise to buy 30 flight credits at a time for specific geographic zones, which up to eight employees can use whenever they need to travel on business. What’s more, Flight Pass credits can be accessed and managed online 24/7 with ease.


Purchase this Flight Pass
Flight Pass Features
Take a Virtual Tour
FAQ

Air Canada’s Small Business Passes make volume purchasing easier while offering maximum administration flexibility.

Book, change or cancel flights online—with ease.
Enjoy flexibility, upgrades* and other benefits.
Get free online reporting to monitor and assess Flight Pass activity.
Passes are available for travel across Canada and between Canada and the U.S.
Register up to eight employees on the same Flight Pass.Which Small Business Pass is right for your small-sized enterprise?

Choose a single Small Business Pass or several Flight Passes depending on where your employees travel to the most. Our wide-ranging selection of Flight Passes has been customized to suit the needs of small to medium sized enterprises like yours.

Thank you for pointing out AC's Small Business Passes that are transferable.

I just took a quick look at AC's Rapidair T+ SBP vs. WS new pass.

1. 10 vs. 30 flights. Probably more flexible to small business. Can buy 1, 2, 3 or 4 books. What if the small business anticipates to fly 20 or 40 roundtrips? AC must be multiples of 30 vs. 10.
2. Cheaper per flight ($120 vs. AC's $199)
3. No charge to change ($30/$50 for AC)

It will be interesting to see how WS's pass will play out as the WS scheme is very interesting and has its unique attractions.

...
Seatback IFE on virtually all domestic flights?

;)

That was Jetblue.

2. Cheaper per flight ($120 vs. AC's $199)also the $199 does not include GST/PST

And my take on what parnel posted was that you have to register the up to 8 people who use the AC pass, whereas it sounds like the WS pass doesn't require that.

And my take on what parnel posted was that you have to register the up to 8 people who use the AC pass, whereas it sounds like the WS pass doesn't require that.

"WestJet Travel Passes are available for purchase until 7 p.m. MDT April 28, 2006 for travel until August 31, 2006. No exceptions. $1200 cost includes taxes, fees and surcharges. Pass valid for 10 one-way trips between Toronto - Ottawa and Toronto - Montréal only. No refunds on WestJet Travel Pass. No cancellations on booked flights. Unlimited changes up to two hours prior to travel. Passes are transferable, but are void if resold. Offer is not combinable with other fares. WestJet is not responsible for lost or misused travel passes. No AIR MILES available for purchase of the travel pass. Limited passes available for purchase. WestJet Travel Passes are for new bookings only. WestJet travel credits cannot be used to purchase WestJet Travel Passes. All travel pass-related requests must go through 1-866-871-9998."

I read:
No cancellations on booked flights...use it or lose it!
Must be booked in the next 3 weeks.
Only good until 8/31/2006.
Pass sales are limited (seems like a loss leader at Safeway to me).
No Air miles.

This product is very different from the AC pass product, time will tell which product will win out!

And my take on what parnel posted was that you have to register the up to 8 people who use the AC pass, whereas it sounds like the WS pass doesn't require that.

Not sure about the AC one but WS does not require any names at purchase, only when making the booking.

Yes, WS' $1,200 price include all taxes, etc.

"WestJet Travel Passes are available for purchase until 7 p.m. MDT April 28, 2006 for travel until August 31, 2006. No exceptions. $1200 cost includes taxes, fees and surcharges. Pass valid for 10 one-way trips between Toronto - Ottawa and Toronto - Montréal only. No refunds on WestJet Travel Pass. No cancellations on booked flights. Unlimited changes up to two hours prior to travel. Passes are transferable, but are void if resold. Offer is not combinable with other fares. WestJet is not responsible for lost or misused travel passes. No AIR MILES available for purchase of the travel pass. Limited passes available for purchase. WestJet Travel Passes are for new bookings only. WestJet travel credits cannot be used to purchase WestJet Travel Passes. All travel pass-related requests must go through 1-866-871-9998."

I read:
No cancellations on booked flights...use it or lose it!
Must be booked in the next 3 weeks.
Only good until 8/31/2006.
Pass sales are limited (seems like a loss leader at Safeway to me).
No Air miles.

This product is very different from the AC pass product, time will tell which product will win out!

Yes, changes are allowed with WS at no charge up to 2 hours before flight. AC's SBP Rapidair T+ charges $30/$50 to change.

Yes, it's interesting to watch how the 2 passes will play out.

Yes, changes are allowed with WS at no charge up to 2 hours before flight. AC's SBP Rapidair T+ charges $30/$50 to change.

Yes, it's interesting to watch how the 2 passes will play out.
But you can't cancel the credit once it has been booked and return it to your "Pass" for later use........(use it or lose it). Is that allowed on AC?

Passes are transferable, but are void if resold.

And how would they know whether a pass has been "resold" or not?

[QUOTE=Q Shoe Guy]No cancellations on booked flights. Unlimited changes up to two hours prior to travel.[/COLOR]

So, continue making changes instead of cancelling booked flights?

Well, 120$ one way all included sounds pretty good, especially with the possibility of transfering segments to other people! It definitely sounds pretty competitive to the train (at least on the Ottawa-Toronto run where the return fare is around 200$).

Too bad about the AMs though...

"WestJet Travel Passes are available for purchase until 7 p.m. MDT April 28, 2006 for travel until August 31, 2006. No exceptions. $1200 cost includes taxes, fees and surcharges. Pass valid for 10 one-way trips between Toronto - Ottawa and Toronto - Montréal only. No refunds on WestJet Travel Pass. No cancellations on booked flights. Unlimited changes up to two hours prior to travel. Passes are transferable, but are void if resold. Offer is not combinable with other fares. WestJet is not responsible for lost or misused travel passes. No AIR MILES available for purchase of the travel pass. Limited passes available for purchase. WestJet Travel Passes are for new bookings only. WestJet travel credits cannot be used to purchase http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=5587192#
WinkWestJet Travel Passes. All travel pass-related requests must go through 1-866-871-9998."

I read:
No cancellations on booked flights...use it or lose it!
Must be booked in the next 3 weeks.
Only good until 8/31/2006.
Pass sales are limited (seems like a loss leader at Safeway to me).
No Air miles.

This product is very different from the AC pass product, time will tell which product will win out!


Limited time promotion and only valid until the end of summer! Looks absolutely fantastic! Considering how much travel businesses that get into from June-August in the golden triangle. While compairing AC's $199 to WS' $120, why don't we compare the value of $1 between Canada and Mexico while we're at it too?

Limited time promotion and only valid until the end of summer! Looks absolutely fantastic! Considering how much travel businesses that get into from June-August in the golden triangle. While compairing AC's $199 to WS' $120, why don't we compare the value of $1 between Canada and Mexico while we're at it too?

You can bet ur lunch AC marketing will be burning the midnight oil on this one. How do they match the $120 sector fare without dramatic changes in the economics of the route. I mean dramatic. Really dramatic.

Do they match, but limit it to directly competitive flights? That'll make pass holders happy. $120 at 8:00am where there's competition, twice as much where there's no competition. That's how you build loyalty. And what about ACE's transparent pricing?

Do they retaliate and add the western triangle? How much will they lose doing that because the pass neutralizes the alledged yield premium, and now it's the guy with the lowest costs who can sustain the game the longest.

Does WJ widen it again then? Trans con? Transborder?

This is gonna hurt AC way more than anyone else. Eventually, they'll have to cry uncle, and quietly withdraw the program(s), as is the case with every other initiative over time. AC can't forward sell it's business fares via these programs for any length of time. It'll destroy their yields.

Will we see the word "overwhelming" in the AC press release announcing the latest scheme?

;)

You can bet ur lunch AC marketing will be burning the midnight oil on this one. How do they match the $120 sector fare without dramatic changes in the economics of the route. I mean dramatic. Really dramatic.

Do they match, but limit it to directly competitive flights? That'll make pass holders happy. $120 at 8:00am where there's competition, twice as much where there's no competition. That's how you build loyalty. And what about ACE's transparent pricing?

Do they retaliate and add the western triangle? How much will they lose doing that because the pass neutralizes the alledged yield premium, and now it's the guy with the lowest costs who can sustain the game the longest.

Does WJ widen it again then? Trans con? Transborder?

This is gonna hurt AC way more than anyone else. Eventually, they'll have to cry uncle, and quietly withdraw the program(s), as is the case with every other initiative over time. AC can't forward sell it's business fares via these programs for any length of time. It'll destroy their yields.

Will we see the word "overwhelming" in the AC press release announcing the latest scheme?

;)

You're embellishing. The pass caters to business, and majority of business travellers are happy with AC. Small or medium sized business, or business mandating the cheapest possible travel would probably use the pass.

If the pass were valid beyond August and didn't require purchase within 3 weeks of today, then you'd have the right to say "AC is losing sleep over this". But so far, although this pass is good, it's not perfect (not that the AC one is perfect either) and I wouldn't say it would bring golaith down.

This is gonna hurt AC way more than anyone else. Eventually, they'll have to cry uncle, and quietly withdraw the program(s), as is the case with every other initiative over time. AC can't forward sell it's business fares via these programs for any length of time. It'll destroy their yields.
;)

Exactly what I have been posting on the AC forum.How can it continue to sell transcon J- seat at 1K RT all inclusive?


AC has generally treated me well.My u/g #s are at 100% for 2006.I like the new passes and find they are working quite well for my business at decent rates,IMO.(J to YVR return from YSB for approx.1K is pretty reasonable on a pass u/g)Currently hold 3 differnt types of passes.Use Amex CC to plunk more points into the AE account.Took the double miles as part of my package.
QUOTE]

[QUOTE=acysb87]Don't forget the bonus points for booking,the COS Q miles at 50%,the extra points to AE for buying the passes on a CC.
So for aprox $1K
YYZ-YVR-YYZ= aprox. 4160
50% COS 2080
Double miles 4160
CC payment$1K 1000
The poster gets aprox: 11400 RDM.
I am not taking into account YYZ-YSB-YYZ; which can add another 2000RDM.

[QUOTE=stinger]I do mostly domestic with some international. I am happy with the pass products as I have a city pass and an east-west pass, my only concern is how long can AC keep up the confirmed upgrades in J for a transcon for $1k return. I do feel that something is going to have to give. However, I am more than happy to enjoy my time right now.
.

As I posted on the AC forum.These flyers are taking are taking AC to cleaners. :D
These figures are posted by AC Loyalists.

That was Jetblue.

In Canada? Really?

;)

You're embellishing. The pass caters to business, and majority of business travellers are happy with AC. Small or medium sized business, or business mandating the cheapest possible travel would probably use the pass.

If the pass were valid beyond August and didn't require purchase within 3 weeks of today, then you'd have the right to say "AC is losing sleep over this". But so far, although this pass is good, it's not perfect (not that the AC one is perfect either) and I wouldn't say it would bring golaith down.

Here is a thought. Maybe WJ is testing the waters.
If what Parnel has been saying that the passes are they way of airline doing business in the future is true, it is time WJ looked at this business plan.

My response to Parnel's enthusiasm has been,if the passes were such a great money making product why the other airlines have not embraced this business model.
I guess I have been proven wrong.
My opinion was based on:
How can a full service airline offer its transcon J-class RT for $1K. with bonus miles.
The difference with WJ, they are not selling their J-class at a bargain basement price. They have no J-Class to sell.

[QUOTE]Exactly what I have been posting on the AC forum.How can it continue to sell transcon J- seat at 1K RT all inclusive?


Because for the most part and this has been true for years AC hasn't been able to sell the the pure J products domestically for the most part. The passes are a way of securing further loyalty and making it easier to upgrade.With the economy continuously improving for Canadian businesses watch for AC being able to raise fares including passes and actually getting somepretty good revenue. The res system and the passes are all desinged to upsell the product.....WHICH IS WHY WETJET IS COPYING THE PASS PROGRAM




As I posted on the AC forum.These flyers are taking are taking AC to cleaners. :D

Oh yes we are forcing them to lower fares and are raping them all the way...of course current economics in the industry have nothing to do with it.
What a joke


These figures are posted by AC Loyalists.

You claimed to be one until you were outed as someone who effectively rips off AC :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]You can bet ur lunch AC marketing will be burning the midnight oil on this one. How do they match the $120 sector fare without dramatic changes in the economics of the route. I mean dramatic. Really dramatic.
Do they match, but limit it to directly competitive flights? That'll make pass holders happy. $120 at 8:00am where there's competition, twice as much where there's no competition. That's how you build loyalty. And what about ACE's transparent pricing?



I don't think AC is going to raise a sweat over this...They have hourly flights;they have tango fares for those who want them and in the east they own the biz pax because of frequency frequency frequency and J class with hot breakfasts,etc.. FF program, lounges, ease of gates,etc. The National post said today you guys are going to bleed badly with these fares...which are really about $85 a segment net to wetjet;even Clive can't say he makes his asm/casm/prasm and spasm on these fares. They'll die in August...which is also another stupid move. Most business people take lots of vacation in the summer when the pass is at its zenith time wise. Some great planning that is. then again wehat does Wet jet know about biz travelers...they never have any to speak of.


Do they retaliate and add the western triangle? How much will they lose doing that because the pass neutralizes the alledged yield premium, and now it's the guy with the lowest costs who can sustain the game the longest.

its the guy with the bigges bank account and that ain't you....but even so thye will probably make you sweat it out and tke your lumps.

Does WJ widen it again then? Trans con? Transborder?

and AC can instantly have Tango or Tango passes...they've only started down the pass route...just wait for the next generation it will blow you away.


This is gonna hurt AC way more than anyone else. Eventually, they'll have to cry uncle, and quietly withdraw the program(s), as is the case with every other initiative over time. AC can't forward sell it's business fares via these programs for any length of time. It'll destroy their yields.

These passes are admittedly discounted fares but not everyone can buy them but the cash flow up front is addictive and is worth a lot more to them than you one trick ponies can even imagine.


Will we see the word "overwhelming" in the AC press release announcing the latest scheme?


No you'll see....THE REVOLUTION CONTINUES AND WETJET IS SUCKING HIND TEAT.

You're embellishing. The pass caters to business, and majority of business travellers are happy with AC. Small or medium sized business, or business mandating the cheapest possible travel would probably use the pass.

If the pass were valid beyond August and didn't require purchase within 3 weeks of today, then you'd have the right to say "AC is losing sleep over this". But so far, although this pass is good, it's not perfect (not that the AC one is perfect either) and I wouldn't say it would bring golaith down.


I remember when Hollis Harris was quoted in 1996 as saying that Canadian's were more interested in AC service than low fares. 7 years and 2 CEO's later, AC was banco. I guess Canadians liked the low fares, AND the service.

Believe me. AC does not want to see those sorts of fares on the Golden Triangle for any length of time. Not with their cost structure.

WJ has signalled lots of out clauses for AC. Aug 31st. It allows a return to normalcy post Labor Day. Only on sale for 3 weeks. I'll leave you to guess what that means.

If AC widens the offer, WJ will widen the pass to cover off, say, up to Dec 15th. Maybe go trans-con too. Maybe make it available until May 31st. Who knows.

Tit for tat. WJ will not play all its cards in one hand.

This is going to be an interesting chess match. If AC retaliates, there goes the revenue premium when they are hoping to print money in 2Q and 3Q.

The guy with the lowest costs in a commodity business controls pricing. That's how WJ's op margin will be close to 5x AC's in 1Q 2005.

;)

In Canada? Really?

;)

Oooh, first out of a field of three. Very impressive. So not only can you trashtalk Neeleman, but copy his ideas.

I see AC pioneered the use the black box, and not just in Canada. Something a little more worthwhile methinks. And before you lay claim to introducing e-ticketing to Canada, AC did that :)

I remember when Hollis Harris was quoted in 1996 as saying that Canadian's were more interested in AC service than low fares. 7 years and 2 CEO's later, AC was banco. I guess Canadians liked the low fares, AND the service.

Believe me. AC does not want to see those sorts of fares on the Golden Triangle for any length of time. Not with their cost structure.

WJ has signalled lots of out clauses for AC. Aug 31st. It allows a return to normalcy post Labor Day. Only on sale for 3 weeks. I'll leave you to guess what that means.

If AC widens the offer, WJ will widen the pass to cover off, say, up to Dec 15th. Maybe go trans-con too. Maybe make it available until May 31st. Who knows.

Tit for tat. WJ will not play all its cards in one hand.

This is going to be an interesting chess match. If AC retaliates, there goes the revenue premium when they are hoping to print money in 2Q and 3Q.

The guy with the lowest costs in a commodity business controls pricing. That's how WJ's op margin will be close to 5x AC's in 1Q 2005.

;)

Remember the $16 dollar loss every second vs. WJA making $1 a second in 4Q?

Every reduction in yield at AC causes that number to expand.

AC tried to outspend WJ when WJ had $10m in the bank and 3 aircraft. AC had about $1.5b kicking around. Look where it got AC. -23.7% margins in Western Canada according to their own numbers. Banco 7 years later trying to play the attrition game. Why? Because their costs were 40% higher and the market simply expanded further when fares were cut.

Now, AC has $2b, WJ has about $300m and unencumbered assets coming out of the ying yang. Remove depreciation from the P & L, (non cash), and figure out what WJ's real BELF is. I'll give you a clue, it's in the low 60's. That allows for a about a 20 point drop in load factor to breakeven. If loads stay the same, yields can drop.

Figure out what happens to AC under these circumstances. What happens to the stock price? What happens to those time sensitive $20 stock options?

What's changed? AC's costs are still 40% higher, and now WJ is going to have some fun by using the huge casm advantage to discount fares in AC's core market. Maybe it's a little payback. Who knows, but it's fun to watch.

AC retaliates, they cut off their nose to spite their face.

;)

Oooh, first out of a field of three. Very impressive. So not only can you trashtalk Neeleman, but copy his ideas.

I see AC pioneered the use the black box, and not just in Canada. Something a little more worthwhile methinks. And before you lay claim to introducing e-ticketing to Canada, AC did that :)

And I suppose you think E Ticketing is the same as Ticket-less.

WJ was the first 100% ticketless in Canada and pioneered on-line booking too.

Who pioneered RNP in Canada?

Trash talking Neeleman? Give me a break.

Actually, I talked to him early this week. Bet you'd love to know about what, too. ;)

..

Trash talking Neeleman? Give me a break.

Actually, I talked to him early this week. Bet you'd love to know about what, too. ;)

So nice to know your still on his speed-dial even after the slam. Was this between tea and crumpets with Sir Richard and a barbie with the Dixons :rolleyes:

Actually, I talked to him early this week. Bet you'd love to know about what, too. ;)

BTW the boys at AC know who you are and the "best" comment was scumbag.

So nice to know your still on his speed-dial even after the slam. Was this between tea and crumpets with Sir Richard and a barbie with the Dixons :rolleyes:

The route planning dept doesn't get those kinds of visitors ;)

The route planning dept doesn't get those kinds of visitors ;)

I'm flattered.

Richard's number ends in 497, if your interested.

;)

I'm flattered.

Richard's number ends in 497, if your interested.

;)

Robert's cell number ends in 342 in case you're interested

Robert's cell number ends in 342 in case you're interested

I understand that Brian's cell number ends in 674 if that helps as well. :confused:

Dagger = Sebring.

My neighbour has 3 rabbits

Yes we have no Bananas.

Robert's cell number ends in 342 in case you're interested

Did you enjoy his office in the renovated.......well....if you've been there, you'd know what sort of building his home office is in........ and what it sits over.....and how far it is from his house.

;)

Did you enjoy his office in the renovated.......well....if you've been there, you'd know what sort of building his home office is in........ and what it sits over.....and how far it is from his house.

;)


Hey, AC is a very plebian airline unlike the snobs who inhabit the WJA HQ.
They make it easy for their call center, aeroplan employees and ACE management personnel to get to work.

He has the metro station in his building for those quick dashes downtown for a luncheon. And, yes he can walk home in about 15 minutes if he doesn't get out of breath on the hill.

I remember when Hollis Harris was quoted in 1996 as saying that Canadian's were more interested in AC service than low fares. 7 years and 2 CEO's later, AC was banco. I guess Canadians liked the low fares, AND the service.

Believe me. AC does not want to see those sorts of fares on the Golden Triangle for any length of time. Not with their cost structure.

WJ has signalled lots of out clauses for AC. Aug 31st. It allows a return to normalcy post Labor Day. Only on sale for 3 weeks. I'll leave you to guess what that means.

If AC widens the offer, WJ will widen the pass to cover off, say, up to Dec 15th. Maybe go trans-con too. Maybe make it available until May 31st. Who knows.

Tit for tat. WJ will not play all its cards in one hand.

This is going to be an interesting chess match. If AC retaliates, there goes the revenue premium when they are hoping to print money in 2Q and 3Q.

The guy with the lowest costs in a commodity business controls pricing. That's how WJ's op margin will be close to 5x AC's in 1Q 2005.

;)
Listen, your stats are wonderful and provide an effective argument when they're put in proper context and using the same variables.
You're comparing AC today (post CCAA) to AC 10 years ago (prior to merging with Canadian while requiring to oblige by the AC-Act).

Furthermore, I'm not doubting WS has good service and a good business model. But as an executive or travelling on business where you spend at least of a third of the year in a hotel room, you want the priority bag handling and priority lineup, you want the MLL to get some toast, coffee, and a newspaper instead of waiting in line at tim hortons and sitting in the terminal around screaming babies, you want the J cabin that'll let you board first, you want the meals, you want the gates. WS will never have an advantage in business-like ammenities, just "more leg room", leather seats, and canadian satellite TV (ohh! ESPN classic!)

Hey, AC is a very plebian airline unlike the snobs who inhabit the WJA HQ.
They make it easy for their call center, aeroplan employees and ACE management personnel to get to work.

He has the metro station in his building for those quick dashes downtown for a luncheon. And, yes he can walk home in about 15 minutes if he doesn't get out of breath on the hill.
Let's not forget that unlike WS' hangar/corporate office that's only accessible by SUV, WS is not bound by law to remain in one city, even with the rising prospect of Alberta seperation.

Hey, AC is a very plebian airline unlike the snobs who inhabit the WJA HQ.
They make it easy for their call center, aeroplan employees and ACE management personnel to get to work.

He has the metro station in his building for those quick dashes downtown for a luncheon. And, yes he can walk home in about 15 minutes if he doesn't get out of breath on the hill.

I speak of his house, not of his office......... ;)

BTW the boys at AC know who you are and the "best" comment was scumbag.

No fertilizer, sherlock....... ;)

[QUOTE=cur]
Furthermore, I'm not doubting WS has good service and a good business model. But as an executive or travelling on business where you spend at least of a third of the year in a hotel room, you want the priority bag handling and priority lineup, you want the MLL to get some toast, coffee, and a newspaper instead of waiting in line at tim hortons and sitting in the terminal around screaming babies, you want the J cabin that'll let you board first, you want the meals, you want the gates. WS will never have an advantage in business-like ammenities, just "more leg room", leather seats, and canadian satellite TV (ohh! ESPN classic!)
QUOTE]

No argument.

There's a distinct segment of the traveling public that will never fly WJ, just as they'll never fly SWA. That's a given.

However, I do have a pet peeve with kids and infants in J class, likely traveling on points. It kind of defeats the purpose of paying for quiet up front. It's happened more than once.

You won't see me fly a charter carrier across the Atlantic.

;)