Sounds a lot like what SAS did with things last summer. SAS created more headaches for itself by going down that route.

Anyone contact the Canadian TV stations and newspapers yet?
I've sent an email to the Globe&Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/travel/) -- Toronto's National Newspaper.
--
13F

Sounds a lot like what SAS did with things last summer. SAS created more headaches for itself by going down that route.

Anyone contact the Canadian TV stations and newspapers yet?
...every National TV and newspaper...just by email so far...if no response by mid-day I will try calling. It will be interesting to see if we get a response...ORBITZ being a big advertiser and all...

Regarding asking for a refund or disputing credit card charges: I wonder if this is a good idea. I don't want to cancel the reservation, and so far, Orbitz has not informed me that anything has changed. Even if they inform me about a cancelation, wouldn't my best bet to just pretend that everything is in order?

Maybe this is driven by an unrealistic hope that, one way or another, they will honor the reservations...

- Martin

my card wasn't charged, nor have I received any emails or phone calls. I'm holding off for now, it's orbitz' responsibility to notify me if there are any problems, so why provoke them?

There might be little hope but I wonder would happen if Toronto media got an hold of this one. :eek:

A call has been made to a reporter I know at one of the major papers. We'll see if they are interested.

Regarding asking for a refund or disputing credit card charges: I wonder if this is a good idea. I don't want to cancel the reservation, and so far, Orbitz has not informed me that anything has changed. Even if they inform me about a cancelation, wouldn't my best bet to just pretend that everything is in order?

Maybe this is driven by an unrealistic hope that, one way or another, they will honor the reservations...

- Martin

Better to get the story covered in the media at this point and not ask for a cancellation/refund as of now.

Personally, I am not calling Orbitz/Cheaptickets (or Alitalia) about this matter anytime soon. Instead I'm trying to see who has interested friends in the Canadian press. ;)

Okay, so just looking at different scenarios:

say we get the paper tickets. Show up at the airport, and are denied boarding. What compensation are we entitled to under the law? Not looking for legal advice, just some armchair estimates. Thanks.

EDIT: I mean, I like Toronto - I could end up "stranded" in worse places.

I called my credit card bank (B of A - oh, well) and they said the charges - tickets and UPS/handling - were filed by Orbitz at 12:46pm ET yesterday but that no funds had been transfered to Orbitz' merchant bank yet. Everything is still up on Orbitz as of now, but tick... tick... tick...

On DL metal YYZ-JFK-FCO so maybe that's more complicated to scrub.

odd.
my card was refunded the shipping cost for the ticket.
not canceled yet though.

A call has been made to a reporter I know at one of the major papers. We'll see if they are interested.


That's a start!! Companies are more afraid of bad publicity than lawsuits.

Okay, so just looking at different scenarios:

say we get the paper tickets. Show up at the airport, and are denied boarding. What compensation are we entitled to under the law? Not looking for legal advice, just some armchair estimates. Thanks.

If not explicitly notified in advance, under EU rules, AZ is required to pay you compensation of the equivalent of 600 euros. (Getting the money is another matter.)

Why would Orbitz charge me this for ticketed itinerary with two fares costing $200 plus??

04/05/2006 ORBITZ.COM CHICAGO IL
45364913P ORB*131LT57M
More Detail
46.93
04/05/2006 ORBITZ.COM CHICAGO IL
45370154P ORB*1319B1O2
More Detail
31.94

This makes no sense at all.... unless they actually think I would pay their processing and service fees for tickets that were obviously never issued!

Same thing is showing on my AmEx - it's the Orbitz fee (19.95) + the overnight delivery charge.

As the thread is starting to be un-focus, I start a new thread to discuss common strategy to get our tickets.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5582050#post5582050

aad665

...I believe the greater the numbers the more this becomes a story. By the way my headline for my submission was:
"Alitalia stiffs 100's of YYZ passengers"
I hope this gets their attention.

Wow. Totally forgot about my Expedia booking. It is canceled as well, although they're offering me the same itin for 3000 dollars. :mad: Oh well. Stupid Alitalia. How did they keep the fare basis code up for so long without realizing that nearly every single MXP/FCO-LCA was selling out in D? Just doesn't make sense.

...every National TV and newspaper...just by email so far...if no response by mid-day I will try calling. It will be interesting to see if we get a response...ORBITZ being a big advertiser and all...

That's why local TV networks are sometimes a better outlet. Since Orbitz doesn't usually buy local ad rights on local TV stations. :D Alitalia rarely does.

I really don't think it's necessary ... :rolleyes:

As the thread is starting to be un-focus, I start a new thread to discuss common strategy to get our tickets.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5582050#post5582050

aad665

Okay, so just looking at different scenarios:

say we get the paper tickets. Show up at the airport, and are denied boarding. What compensation are we entitled to under the law? Not looking for legal advice, just some armchair estimates. Thanks.

EDIT: I mean, I like Toronto - I could end up "stranded" in worse places.
free drink coupon? :D

How many Orbitz buyers have yet to be cancelled?

i just received the 4 tickets that i booked from travelocity.ca.

on one of the tickets i had a next-day return from LCA to MXP, but the ticket was issued as a transit only at LCA, so it gives me much less flexibility :(

the other two tickets i bought at cheaptickets have not been cancelled yet but i'm not holding my breath. it's unfortunate because these two tickets have stopover in FCO too, which works much better for me.

...I believe the greater the numbers the more this becomes a story. By the way my headline for my submission was:
"Alitalia stiffs 100's of YYZ passengers"
I hope this gets their attention.

Good step. I wouldn't use airport codes or airline jingo such as abbreviations. Plain English goes over better.

How many Orbitz buyers have yet to be cancelled?

Still not cancelled, but still only showing outbound.

Okay, so just looking at different scenarios:

say we get the paper tickets. Show up at the airport, and are denied boarding. What compensation are we entitled to under the law? Not looking for legal advice, just some armchair estimates. Thanks.

EDIT: I mean, I like Toronto - I could end up "stranded" in worse places.

That's rather a difficult question... ;)

My opinion...and just an opinion!...is that if you get as far as the airport and you still have a confirmed reservation, then you'll probably be OK...yoru interaction at the airport is with check in and gate agents, not ticket agents...

However...worst case scenario...you get to the airport and AZ only pick up the error at that point...they could ask you for the difference between fare paid and the proper fare...and if you were unwilling to pay that I would guess that they could refuse you boarding without having to pay compensation...on the basis that you are not being denied boarding per se...you are choosing not to board by not paying the difference

I'm not condoning such an action by AZ, far from it...simply pointing out the worst case as I see it...but you could just as easily have a best case scenario where you travel as booked.

How many Orbitz buyers have yet to be cancelled?

I've only had 1/2 of my trip cancelled (the return). Outbound is still showing....

1. The DOT accept the complaint and include in its airline stats. While I wouldn't expect any kind of serious investigation from the USDOT over it, the fact remains that there are rules that apply to US point-of-sale transactions, no matter where in the world the travel actually occurs.


Here are some DOT responses from a similar issue a couple of years ago, FWIW.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3400110&postcount=174

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3421598&postcount=191

I can't see how this one would yield a better answer from the DOT.

That's rather a difficult question... ;)

My opinion...and just an opinion!...is that if you get as far as the airport and you still have a confirmed reservation, then you'll probably be OK...yoru interaction at the airport is with check in and gate agents, not ticket agents...

However...worst case scenario...you get to the airport and AZ only pick up the error at that point...they could ask you for the difference between fare paid and the proper fare...and if you were unwilling to pay that I would guess that they could refuse you boarding without having to pay compensation...on the basis that you are not being denied boarding per se...you are choosing not to board by not paying the difference

I'm not condoning such an action by AZ, far from it...simply pointing out the worst case as I see it...but you could just as easily have a best case scenario where you travel as booked.

That's such a twisted scenario and excessively creative reintepretation of "denied boarding" that few courts would go with such a twist.

Haha, I just received 2 courier packages from cheaptickets with my tickets for both my June and July trips. If I check the cheaptickets site, one of these has already been cancelled, but the other is good to go.

So now what happens if I show up at the airport the day of departure? Will I be denied boarding even though I have paper tickets in my hand?

How many Orbitz buyers have yet to be cancelled?

I booked 2 tickets (on one reservation number) around 11:00am PST yesterday. Not cancelled yet. No ticket numbers yet.

Okay, so just looking at different scenarios:

say we get the paper tickets. Show up at the airport, and are denied boarding. What compensation are we entitled to under the law? Not looking for legal advice, just some armchair estimates. Thanks.

EDIT: I mean, I like Toronto - I could end up "stranded" in worse places.

I remember hearing a case like this once. Somebody had a first class ticket, it may have been an award ticket. In any event, the airline (on the return) leg decided to screw this person and bumped her back in coach or something without any compensation. The lady then bought her own first class return from another airline and filed for reimbursement from the airline. The airline obviously refused. She went to small claims court or something and said that basically she was stranded at the airport, she had a confirmed first class ticket, she only felt comfortable traveling first class and the airline had no right just bumping her back without compensation – especially on the return leg in a foreign country. The airline was ordered to reimburse her.

Again, many details missing.. this was a few years ago. I’ll see if I can find the article.

That's such a twisted scenario and excessively creative reintepretation of "denied boarding" that few courts would go with such a twist.

I repeat, I'm not condoning such a course of action. Quite the opposite.

But it is possible...

Here are some DOT responses from a similar issue a couple of years ago, FWIW.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3400110&postcount=174

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3421598&postcount=191

I can't see how this one would yield a better answer from the DOT.

Atalia will most probably pull the "it looked to good to be true, so it must have been a mistake" card. Granted, you could point out the 1 Euro specials in Europe, but those are covered by monstrous fees.

Atalia will be able to get out of this in many ways, but again, it's an issue of perception, not reality. Some will win, some will loose, Atalia has the choice of turning this free press into good free press or bad free press... and life goes on...

At this point, not being a ticket holder, it's more about just enjoying the show...

Steve B.

However...worst case scenario...you get to the airport and AZ only pick up the error at that point...they could ask you for the difference between fare paid and the proper fare...and if you were unwilling to pay that I would guess that they could refuse you boarding without having to pay compensation...on the basis that you are not being denied boarding per se...you are choosing not to board by not paying the difference



WOW!

That would seem like extortion to me. ***insert your favourite italian/mob joke here*** :D

Haha, I just received 2 courier packages from cheaptickets with my tickets for both my June and July trips. If I check the cheaptickets site, one of these has already been cancelled, but the other is good to go.

So now what happens if I show up at the airport the day of departure? Will I be denied boarding even though I have paper tickets in my hand?

Yes.

If the airline have cancelled your reservation, whether you have a ticket or not is irrelevant. You don't have a seat on the plane.

And it's not denied boarding if you don't have a reservation.

I remember hearing a case like this once. Somebody had a first class ticket, it may have been an award ticket. In any event, the airline (on the return) leg decided to screw this person and bumped her back in coach or something without any compensation. The lady then bought her own first class return from another airline and filed for reimbursement from the airline. The airline obviously refused. She went to small claims court or something and said that basically she was stranded at the airport, she had a confirmed first class ticket, she only felt comfortable traveling first class and the airline had no right just bumping her back without compensation – especially on the return leg in a foreign country. The airline was ordered to reimburse her.

Again, many details missing.. this was a few years ago. I’ll see if I can find the article.

Wow!!! That would be great, if there is such a precedent! Imagine, flying business class on British or AA, and having AZ pay for it! :D

Obviously, I do not recommend doing this at all (if your reservation is cancelled, whether you have a paper ticket or not, your reservation is cancelled). Likely, we are all just out of luck. That's the way it sometimes goes - (all but two of mine have been cancelled).

But it's interesting (and amusing) to see how things have played out in the past.

Would those with tickets cancelled more than 24 hours after being ticketed have any more leverage than those with tickets cancelled 24 hours or less after being ticketed?

I repeat, I'm not condoning such a course of action. Quite the opposite.

But it is possible...

A lot of things are possible. But it's the higher probability ones that are most likely to happen.

Why would Orbitz charge me this for ticketed itinerary with two fares costing $200 plus??

This makes no sense at all.... unless they actually think I would pay their processing and service fees for tickets that were obviously never issued!

Uh, yeah. Same here. Amex shows Orbitz charge of 59.91. GRRR.
Do we really think AZ will reverse on this?

Better to get the story covered in the media at this point and not ask for a cancellation/refund as of now.

I just got off the phone with cheaptickets and had them refund my file in full, including the delivery fee. I thought about giving it another 24 hours to see if AZ would change their mind, but in the end decided that I'd cut my losses and wipe the slate clean. Having learned well from my FT experience, I hadn't booked any nonrefundable connectors or hotels, so am not out any money for this fiasco, but will of course ensure the refund is processed as promised.

To each his own I suppose and if AZ reverses it's decision and most or some FTers get their original files reinstated, well good for them. I had to book this on a flyer, so to speak, and it didn't really work well for some personal reasons and timing and that's why I chose to walk away. But, as the FT saying goes, YMMV.

Now back to my regularly scheduled life... :D

WOW!

That would seem like extortion to me. ***insert your favourite italian/mob joke here*** :D

I agree.

And I apologise if my post makes it sound like I'm supporting such a tactic. I'm not. But I'm sure we're all agreed that most airlines will try to take advantage of any loophole that they can to try and avoid paying compensation...

A lot of things are possible. But it's the higher probability ones that are most likely to happen.

The highest probability is that his reservation will be cancelled well before he gets anywhere near an airport.

Orbitz just cxld me. All I have left is a $200 BOS-YYZ. :(

Here are some DOT responses from a similar issue a couple of years ago, FWIW.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3400110&postcount=174

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3421598&postcount=191

I can't see how this one would yield a better answer from the DOT.

I think the second one is interesting:

"It appears that the carrier promptly (within 1 day) alerted consumers
that there was a mistake. We are seeking confirmation from the carrier
that it did in fact alert you to the mistake within a day of your
reservation."

Very few people seem to have been 'alerted' that their tickets have been pulled. And certainly not within a day.
So it may well be useful to contact them.

Is there any point in my contacting DOT as I am not a US citizen?

(My issue here is with the double standards that allow an airline to hold you to their rules and ignore them when it suits their own interests. )

This is exactly what happened with our New Year's Day AC/OS deal/fiasco. A few contacted media. A few filed small claims. There were only a few that got in under the radar because they were within days of booking. OS had the courtesy to call at least. :rolleyes: Nevermind it took them a month or so to call/cancel/remove from the system. As far as I know, no others were honored.

Hypothetically, how would airlines feel if most of F/C were booked then cancelled/refunded a few hours before flight-time. Not suggesting revenge or anything.

Oh, can we keep "FT" out of the media? Can interviews be done without revealing the source/website? Otherwise, we'll get a whole new influx of undesirables.

(sigh) Thanks for listening. :cool:

It's not just Orbitz/Cheap Tickets. Expedia is also cancelling tix. But yeah, a concerted media strategy is definitely the way to go about things. My suggestion is to send some faxes out to the head of media relations at AZ pretending reporters (or if there are FTers who are credentialed, even call) and see if we can get a comment from them on this fiasco. Definitely need to emphasize this as a "fiasco", "catastrophe", "outrage", "fraud". etc. Use big, strong words that have a lot of emotional impact.

People with blogs should also start blogging about this and that may filter through to the big guys. I've contacted my uncle who writes occasionally for the NY Times, but he knows pretty much everyone there and I think that this is the kind of thing that the Times would go for. This is also PERFECT fodder for local TV news, as it feeds into the whole "consumer watchdog" stuff that they like to do during sweeps, which I believe is coming up soon. Also, since AZ's US HQs are in NY, writing/calling the AG would be useful too. Maybe the AG of IL should be hounded too, as that's where Orbitz is based? And here in WA state where Microsoft is based?

That's all I have at the moment.

I don't really know what to do about the EU or Canadian component of things.

http://www.alitalia.com.ar/footer/legalinfo/flightcancellation.htm

Yes.

If the airline have cancelled your reservation, whether you have a ticket or not is irrelevant. You don't have a seat on the plane.

And it's not denied boarding if you don't have a reservation.

Well yes and no. These tickets were valid anytime and changes permitted. So technically you don't need to have a reservation. If you go to the airport and there is a seat in D you should be able to fly on any day.

Here are some DOT responses from a similar issue a couple of years ago, FWIW.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3400110&postcount=174

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3421598&postcount=191

I can't see how this one would yield a better answer from the DOT.
I was the one who initiated contact with the DOT a few years ago. I'm of mixed feeling about whether it is/can be a worthwhile avenue of complaint or not. I went around with the DOT - first a case worker type person, then a DOT attorney - for several weeks and they seemed to take it seriously and did seem to spend some time on it. There was eventually some compensation offered, which I did not choose to use. That did not involve paper tickets, though, and I do wonder if that would make a difference -- clearer evidence of offer accepted/contract completed. One thing that mattered to the DOT was the speed of response from the airline and the fact that COPA (in that case) promptly phoned/left messages with everyone. At present, I have received NO notification that my trip has been cancelled, but I have received my paper tickets. I think it *could* be a different situation. That said, the fact that the point of origin is not in the US may make a difference with the DOT. The fact that it is a sale (yes, as someone pointed out, targeting the US market by selling the tix on US sites), may make it more a matter for the Commerce Department and consumer protection services rather than the DOT. One another info point, the DOT was also interested in the fact that I had only one ticket, rather than dozens...

Well yes and no. These tickets were valid anytime and changes permitted. So technically you don't need to have a reservation. If you go to the airport and there is a seat in D you should be able to fly on any day.

So if one has a ticket, and therefore a ticket number, they could just make a new reservation for the same route and transfer the original ticket number to the new reservation?

Well yes and no. These tickets were valid anytime and changes permitted. So technically you don't need to have a reservation. If you go to the airport and there is a seat in D you should be able to fly on any day.

Um, the airline is surely going to report the ticket number as void so I would highly doubt any tickets anyone has received to date would be accepted at face value at airport check in.

So if one has a ticket, and therefore a ticket number, they could just make a new reservation for the same route and transfer the original ticket number to the new reservation?

It's worked before.

Well yes and no. These tickets were valid anytime and changes permitted. So technically you don't need to have a reservation. If you go to the airport and there is a seat in D you should be able to fly on any day.

That's true, although my understanding is that when an airline error has occurred and they are honouring it, if you subsequently try and change the reservation then the airline can quite legally reasses the ticket and charge you the appropriate fare.

Basically, any change invaidates the fare guarentee and will cause the journey to be repriced - if it's a regular fare then there will usually be no additional collection, but in this case in the event that AZ were honouring the bookings and someone wished to change, I don't think they could have any argument if AZ asked them for the correct fare.

http://www.alitalia.com.ar/footer/legalinfo/flightcancellation.htm
Those rules appear to be for flight cancellations, not ticket cancellations.

Yeah, I'm sure they will. But at the same time. If you had a paper ticket in hand today and they haven't contacted you and you decided to go today. They would in my opinion owe you the 600 EUR. And have to accept your ticket.

I tried to get in this deal as soon as I got the alert...but no dice...I tried to keep up with it but got behind somewhere around page 60...now we have crossed page 100!!

It appears there have been mass cancellations...I would appreciate a short update of the status of this deal, thank you!

Now, the important news. AZ, Orbitz and CT are regrettably all either lying or are terribly confused about WHICH company is cancelling the tickets and WHY they are cancelling them.



* 2 ORB itins with ticket numbers and MCT issues have been cancelled by AZ

However, as AZ advises Orbitz within 24 hours of the MCT issue, Orbitz could rebook an earlier flight to keep reservation intact. So, either AZ cancelled these tickets because they PURPOSELY waited beyond 24 hours to advise Orbitz to trigger the cancellation. Or, AZ sent Orbitz back the tickets within 24 hours, and Orbitz PURPOSELY chose not to rebook earlier MCT-compliant flights to trigger the cancellation.

The ancillary issue here is obviously, why would Orbitz and/or AZ permit an itinerary to even be selected if it had MCT issues. Obviously, we make our bookings based on good faith that MCTs are within the rules.

* 1 ORB itins with ticket numbers and no MCT issues have been cancelled by AZ

* 1 ORB itin with ticket numbers and no MCT issues remain uncancelled

* 1 CT itin had paper ticket delivered today; PNR shows cancelled by AZ

* 1 CT itin with no ticket number and no MCT issues remains uncancelled, but no paper ticket yet.

* 1 CT itin with no ticket numbers and MCT issues have been cancelled by CT

* 1 itin with no ticket numbers and no MCT issues have been cancelled by CT

* 1 CT itin with ticket number and no MCT issues was cancelled by AZ


I consider myself a good sport and can appreciate the challenges facing AZ and partners. But, I also expect problems to be hasndled in a CONSISTENT and TRANSPARENT manner. Namely-

* There should be one uniform reason why the tickets are being cancelled, not all this ruckus about MCT policies or the travel agency uploaded wroiong info or airline supplied wrong info

* There should be a uniform source of the cancellations; not this ridiculous he said she said blame-gaming by each party.

* There should be timely, if not thorough info sent to customers, as simple as there is a problem, we recognize it, we need time to resolve it. NOT, erasing itins with no prior notice, explanation, motive, etc.

I feel like the way this process is shaping up (or NOT shaping up), all the relevant parties are delpeting my goodwill and willingness to be cooperative and flexible.

Um, the airline is surely going to report the ticket number as void so I would highly doubt any tickets anyone has received to date would be accepted at face value at airport check in.

Yes, and this would be a major problem since AZ reps can quickly validate whether a ticket is valid or not.

I'm left wondering why AZ would go about this differently than they did for DEL-MXP-LHR biz fares at under $250 (taxes, fees and all charges included).

This is also PERFECT fodder for local TV news, as it feeds into the whole "consumer watchdog" stuff that they like to do during sweeps, which I believe is coming up soon.

Believe sweeps was March. If this had happened a week ago, there would be blood in the water...

Steve B.

Granted, you could point out the 1 Euro specials in Europe, but those are covered by monstrous fees.

$170 taxes/fees on a $33 ticket isn't monstrous?

Yeah, I'm sure they will. But at the same time. If you had a paper ticket in hand today and they haven't contacted you and you decided to go today. They would in my opinion owe you the 600 EUR. And have to accept your ticket.

If you had a reservation for today, I would agree 100%.

But if your reservation was for another day and you changed it to today, you would need to have the ticket reissued. And any action that brings you in to contact with an AZ ticket desk would, I think, give AZ the opportunity to legally charge you the difference.

As expected, my entire trip in Orbitz is now cancelled, although I find it a bit amusing that the cancelled trip is listed as a one-way ticket to Boston - no sign of any Alitalia flights ever having been booked :rolleyes: I still haven't received any kind of notification from Orbitz... Great customer service.

I'm a bit perplexed that an airline can unilaterally decide that a fare is invalid and cancel a reservation after the customer has been informed that the reservation is confirmed and that tickets have been issued. If the fare was invalid, why did they confirm the reservation and issue the tickets? I didn't see any T&C providing that all reservations are subject to unilateral cancellation by the airline.

Not a bad idea

Seems like it's time to send AZ's DOT complaint numbers throught the roof. Does anyone have similar contact info. for the Italian/European regulatory bodies?

Air Travel Service Problems
How complaints are handled

The Aviation Consumer Protection Division (ACPD) operates a complaint handling system for consumers who experience air travel service problems. Consumers with concerns about airline safety should call the Federal Aviation Administration toll-free at 1-800-255-1111. Consumers with concerns about aviation security should register their comments with the Transportation Security Administration at www.tsa.gov/public/contactus.

Consumers can call, write or e-mail the ACPD to register their concerns about airline service. You may call the ACPD 24 hours each day at 202-366-2220 (TTY 202-366-0511) to record your complaint. Calls are returned Monday through Friday, generally between 7:30 am and 5:00 pm Eastern time. Letters and e-mails will be reviewed and acknowledged and will be forwarded to an airline official for further consideration. Our mailing address is:

Aviation Consumer Protection Division, C-75
U.S. Department of Transportation
400 7th Street, S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20590

Our e-mail address is airconsumer@dot.gov

Whether you call, write or e-mail, please be brief and concise in the description of your problem and be sure to include the following information:

your name
address
daytime phone number (including area code)
name of the airline or company about which you are complaining
flight date
flight number
origin and destination cities of your trip.

Well, my ticket with cheaptickets, that had never gotten a tix #, but was confirmed TWICE on the phone when they called me about the delivery address just got cancelled.
A second ticket on Orbitz looked fine until 5 minutes ago, now just the outbound shows but no return. For this reservation I did click the cancellation insurance box, and was e-mailed the policy. Does anyone have any idea if this situation might be covered by that ?

If the airline have cancelled your reservation, whether you have a ticket or not is irrelevant. You don't have a seat on the plane.

For anyone who's interested, here's the AZ General Conditions of Carriage:

http://www.alitalia.com/Images/CGT_en_0605_final_tcm9-10352.pdf

if your reservation is cancelled, whether you have a paper ticket or not, your reservation is cancelled).

On the other hand, these are "full fare" tickets per the fare rules. Under normal circumstances, the airline could cancel the reservation all day long and you could them up and say "I'd like to make a reservation with my existing full-fare ticket, please," right?

I'm not sure if this will end up mattering, but it can't hurt. Those with intact reservations (complete with ticket numbers), and were ticketed more than 24 hours ago, might want to email themselves their itinerary. Then you'll have a timestamped email from yesterday showing the ticket numbers, and you'll have a timestamped email from more than 24 hours later showing that the same ticket numbers are still valid.

$170 taxes/fees on a $33 ticket isn't monstrous?

Spirit Air: $9 to the Caribbean.
USAir: 50-cent flights to Rome.

I have a printed itinerary from Orbitz that says "Your flight is confirmed. The airline is assigning seats at check-in."

What does "your flight is confirmed" mean if the entire ticket can then be cancelled?

HA!

I nearly fell out of my chair with this one -

I just got an email from Orbitz entitled:

"Orbitz Low Fare Promise"

Here I am, thinking, I'm the first one to get an email from Orbitz saying that something's up. I open it, and, lo and behold...

It's a coupon for $50 off a flight+hotel.

They sent me spam. Perfect timing, though ;)

Believe sweeps was March. If this had happened a week ago, there would be blood in the water...

Steve B.


Sweeps = February, May, and November

Yup. All on AZ metal. When I called about my ticket to Cyprus the CSR, laughing, told that AZ does not offer any tickets from North America to Europe under $800. If this gets ticketed I will laugh so hard!!!!!!

Any bets that someone at AZ got fired this morning?

Well I thought about that as well. But in reading the posts about the DEL-LHR fare people reported that changing the outbound flight didn't cause a reissue on AZ. I'm not sure I haven't looked in SABRE to see if this is true.

That's true, although my understanding is that when an airline error has occurred and they are honouring it, if you subsequently try and change the reservation then the airline can quite legally reasses the ticket and charge you the appropriate fare.

Basically, any change invaidates the fare guarentee and will cause the journey to be repriced - if it's a regular fare then there will usually be no additional collection, but in this case in the event that AZ were honouring the bookings and someone wished to change, I don't think they could have any argument if AZ asked them for the correct fare.

Incorrect.

The fare rules specifically allow a date change at no penalty, providing the correct fare class is available. Any change in the routing is a different matter and does indeed trigger a re-fare.

I purchased my ticket from Cheaptickets at 3:00am PST and I have a ticket number but the tracking number is not showing up. Should I send an email to Cheaptickets for the tracking number? I chose UPS second day air. :(

speaking of MCT ... what is the MCT for BOS? One of my itineraries clearly has invalid MCT @ JFK, but my 2nd itinerary only has one connection in the US and it is in BOS on the way back, and the connecting time is 2 hours and 10 minutes (which would probably be a legal MCT).

I'm curious if the DOT complaints from those flying ex-EWR/JFK (did anyone do BOS/ORD?) will carry some more weight with them?

This is Europe ... they don't fire people over there ... :)

Any bets that someone at AZ got fired this morning?

I'm left wondering why AZ would go about this differently than they did for DEL-MXP-LHR biz fares at under $250 (taxes, fees and all charges included).

I think you've got a far greater volume of tickets here, no? AZ can't have half their YYZ/BOS/JFK/EWR - Italy business class cabins full of $39CAD RT fares during the summer. Alitalia is the last airline that could afford this.

AZ also has interline partners here; depending on their agreements, AZ could owe them more than the fare they collected, or those interline partners will end up being forced to split $39 three ways with AZ. With the DEL biz tickets, there were no interline segments IIRC.

A suggestion:

(this is probably what I'll do)

Everyone who bought the tickets and got some kind of confirmation sue in their local small claims court. Sue Alitalia and the ticketing agency, Orbitz or whatever. Court costs are generally pretty modest in small claims court. Rules of evidence and what have you are relaxed, and SC court judges are often inclined to give the "little guy" a break.

Even if you don't win, it will be sweet revenge to force these entities to defend all these little lawsuits. I can tell you from experience they'll likely use large law firms for the defense and it will cost them plenty.

I will sue for my Small claims court jurisdictional limit of $3000, and make the case that Mr S and I had a nice trip planned, meeting up with friends, a stopover in Milan long enough to see some important art, etc.

And with the crazy way airlines do their fares, who knew this was a mistake?

I'm curious if the DOT complaints from those flying ex-EWR/JFK (did anyone do BOS/ORD?) will carry some more weight with them?

I didn't think anybody had flights ex-EWR/JFK only via-EWR/JFK?ORD etc... all tickets were from Toronto. (weren't they?)

I purchased my ticket from Cheaptickets at 3:00am PST and I have a ticket number but the tracking number is not showing up. Should I send an email to Cheaptickets for the tracking number? I chose UPS second day air. :(

No point in emailing anyone. Either the tickets have been sent or they haven't been. Your finding out the tracking number won't change anything.

Incorrect.

The fare rules specifically allow a date change at no penalty, providing the correct fare class is available. Any change in the routing is a different matter and does indeed trigger a re-fare.

Problem might lie in getting the ticket revalidated...which would involve interaction with AZ.

Unless, of course, you simply went straight to check in with your ticket, without having it revalidated??

Booked tickets on cheaptickets at 2:16 AM CT, with ticket #s, they just cancelled out. no charge on my c/c.

Well I thought about that as well. But in reading the posts about the DEL-LHR fare people reported that changing the outbound flight didn't cause a reissue on AZ. I'm not sure I haven't looked in SABRE to see if this is true.

I am positive that date changes on AZ need not result in a reprice. I've done it well over 20 times on those AZ tickets. (Probably closer to a hundred times for me.) I didn't fly a single one without at least two changes and never had the tickets re-fared/re-priced. The ticket numbers were valid, had valid fare rules associated with them and I used the tickets/ticket numbers for new reservations that were set up independent of my original itinerary (as the PNR had gone stale from my repeated no-showing).

If we start booking a ton of hotel rooms via orbitz for the fare, but then cancel when they cancel our ticket....

Maybe they'll actually push AZ a bit more when they realize they will be loosing a lot of immediate and future revenue.

My tickets literally just arrived from cheaptickets!!!!! But my itin is showing cancelled out on CT's website.

Problem might lie in getting the ticket revalidated...which would involve interaction with AZ.



Interaction with AZ sounds like a very good thing to me. I’d love to hear under what grounds they cancelled the tickets. I read through the T&Cs GUWonder posted and there wasn’t anything there to cover their actions.

Perhaps they’d be willing to explain their position over the phone.

I will sue for my Small claims court jurisdictional limit of $3000, and make the case that Mr S and I had a nice trip planned, meeting up with friends, a stopover in Milan long enough to see some important art, etc.

And with the crazy way airlines do their fares, who knew this was a mistake?

Can we leave the legal posturing for the other thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=545142), please.

I think you've got a far greater volume of tickets here, no?

Personally, no. :D

AZ can't have half their YYZ/BOS/JFK/EWR - Italy business class cabins full of $39CAD RT fares during the summer. Alitalia is the last airline that could afford this.

AZ also has interline partners here; depending on their agreements, AZ could owe them more than the fare they collected, or those interline partners will end up being forced to split $39 three ways with AZ. With the DEL biz tickets, there were no interline segments IIRC.

AZ had their biz cabins full -- if that is what you could call a half-full cabin or far less -- :D -- with people on the sub $39CAD RT fares for DEL-LHR.

Alitalia can afford a lot. It's got official patronage -- from the state. :D

I purchased my ticket from Cheaptickets at 3:00am PST and I have a ticket number but the tracking number is not showing up. Should I send an email to Cheaptickets for the tracking number? I chose UPS second day air. :(

I emailed cheaptickets for a UPS tracking number as it didn't show up on the file, their response to me was that their software is limited and does not show the UPS tracking numbers for paper tickets, but the email also confirmed I am good to go and that UPS is scheduled for delivery today.

Actually the tickets came about 30 min ago, including one they have cancelled on the web.

If you want a UPS tracking number, you have to email cheaptickets with your locator, they will then give it to you.

Interaction with AZ sounds like a very good thing to me. I’d love to hear under what grounds they cancelled the tickets. I read through the T&Cs GUWonder posted and there wasn’t anything there to cover their actions.

Perhaps they’d be willing to explain their position over the phone.

My tickets are all issued on AZ ticket stock (i.e., with AZ ticket numbers) and Orbitz (including Cheaptickets). AZ has a choice on who is allowed to issue tickets and how they can issue tickets. It's not my fault. :D

Why airlines, banks and other corporations can make mistakes and get away with it, but I can't, if I made a mistake they would hold me responsible even if there was an insignificant (to them) account of money at stakewhich is significant to me :mad:

cheaptickets... does not show the UPS tracking numbers for paper tickets

So it works fine for e-tickets (which, naturally, don't require tracking numbers)? Idiocy.

did anyone book this as a Total Trip? :confused:

Problem might lie in getting the ticket revalidated...which would involve interaction with AZ.

Unless, of course, you simply went straight to check in with your ticket, without having it revalidated??

Whether AZ likes it or not, AZ must follow the rules of the fare, just as the consumer must.

The rules say that date changes are penalty-free. AZ doesn't get to choose whether or not it will do so. If there is D class inventory availability, AZ must do so or AZ has breached the contract that exists between the passenger and AZ.

My Orbitz res has not changed since I "purchased" it, all flights are still in my itn. No ticket numbers shown, no UPS tracking number. Online credit card recent activity show a charge equal to the "service fee" and "paper ticketing fee" added together, wonder if the charge for the tickets will come later...

Atalia will most probably pull the "it looked to good to be true, so it must have been a mistake" card. Granted, you could point out the 1 Euro specials in Europe, but those are covered by monstrous fees.$155 or so in fees+taxes in addition to the $33 fare is not monstrous in your book?

Why airlines, banks and other corporations can make mistakes and get away with it, but I can't, if I made a mistake they would hold me responsible even if there was an insignificant (to them) account of money at stack which is significant to me :mad:

Well, parity in cancellation rights should exist.

UPS just dropped off two tickets (for myself and my girlfriend)....

Edit: These are cheaptickets.com tickets, one of which is now down to the sole CO segment on CT.com and the other is in "good standing"...

I figured at this point, there was little to lose, so I innocently emailed Orbitz:

To: Orbitz
From: AndrewC75
Re: Orbitz PNR: xxxxxxx
The international segments of this confirmed,
ticketed, and paid-for itinerary are mysteriously missing when viewed
online. Please restore them per the confirmation email I received
yesterd titled "Travel Document - Larnaca 7/22/06". Also, it's been
24 hours now, and I still haven't recevied a tracking number for the
tickets, so please provide that in your response. Thanks.

To: AndrewC75
From: Orbitz
Dear Andrew,

Thank you for contacting Orbitz.

From your e-mail, I understand that you are referring to the flight
reservation titled 'Toronto 7/25/06'.

Please note, this reservation has been canceled. I suggest that you
contact Orbitz Customer Service at 1-888-656-4546 or 1-312-416-0018 (if
calling from outside US) for further assistance.

We value you as a customer and look forward to serving you again in the
future.

Sincerely,

Nicholas
OrbitzTLC
www.Orbitz.com

Orbitz - The faster, easier way to find the trip you want.

So basically, don't bother.

Edited to add: I received 3 similar emails for my three other reservations.

Whether AZ likes it or not, AZ must follow the rules of the fare, just as the consumer must.

The rules say that date changes are penalty-free. AZ doesn't get to choose whether or not it will do so. If there is D class inventory availability, AZ must do so or AZ has breached the contract that exists between the passenger and AZ.

^^

.... and AZ would be making a mistake to think it can simply eliminate the D-inventory outright. They'd be locking out customers paying the non-"promotional" fares.

For what it's worth, Travelocity purchased tix just arrived by Fedex and look valid on their face. No idea whether or not having actual paper will make a difference in this situation... :mad:

A suggestion:

(this is probably what I'll do)

Everyone who bought the tickets and got some kind of confirmation sue in their local small claims court. Sue Alitalia and the ticketing agency, Orbitz or whatever. Court costs are generally pretty modest in small claims court. Rules of evidence and what have you are relaxed, and SC court judges are often inclined to give the "little guy" a break.

Even if you don't win, it will be sweet revenge to force these entities to defend all these little lawsuits. I can tell you from experience they'll likely use large law firms for the defense and it will cost them plenty.

I will sue for my Small claims court jurisdictional limit of $3000, and make the case that Mr S and I had a nice trip planned, meeting up with friends, a stopover in Milan long enough to see some important art, etc.

Suing in your own small claims court jurisdiction may not be sufficient, because it may not be the proper jurisdiction in which to bring action. See page 15 of this thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=509380&page=55&pp=15) for more discussion on small claims court in relation to fare errors.

Mike

I figured at this point, there was little to lose, so I innocently emailed Orbitz:

To: Orbitz
From: AndrewC75
Re: Orbitz PNR: xxxxxxx
The international segments of this confirmed,
ticketed, and paid-for itinerary are mysteriously missing when viewed
online. Please restore them per the confirmation email I received
yesterd titled "Travel Document - Larnaca 7/22/06". Also, it's been
24 hours now, and I still haven't recevied a tracking number for the
tickets, so please provide that in your response. Thanks.

To: AndrewC75
From: Orbitz
Dear Andrew,

Thank you for contacting Orbitz.

From your e-mail, I understand that you are referring to the flight
reservation titled 'Toronto 7/25/06'.

Please note, this reservation has been canceled. I suggest that you
contact Orbitz Customer Service at 1-888-656-4546 or 1-312-416-0018 (if
calling from outside US) for further assistance.

We value you as a customer and look forward to serving you again in the
future.

Sincerely,

Nicholas
OrbitzTLC
www.Orbitz.com

Orbitz - The faster, easier way to find the trip you want.

So basically, don't bother.

Why doesn't Orbitz say who cancelled the reservation. :o

Whether AZ likes it or not, AZ must follow the rules of the fare, just as the consumer must.

The rules say that date changes are penalty-free. AZ doesn't get to choose whether or not it will do so. If there is D class inventory availability, AZ must do so or AZ has breached the contract that exists between the passenger and AZ.

But isn't the whole problem here that by not honouring the tickets that have already been booked, AZ are already not following the rules of the fare and breaching the contract?

Suing in your own small claims court jurisdiction may not be sufficient, because it may not be the proper jurisdiction in which to bring action. See page 15 of this thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=509380&page=55&pp=15) for more discussion on small claims court in relation to fare errors.

Mike

It's not page 15 for most. It's post 820.

For what it's worth, Travelocity purchased tix just arrived by Fedex and look valid on their face. No idea whether or not having actual paper will make a difference in this situation... :mad:
I think that is a common assumption here: that having paper tickets guarantees the existence of an itinerary, regardless of what happens on the airlines' computers.

Are paper tickets a type of 'currency' whose validity cannot be challenged? I honestly don't know.

But isn't the whole problem here that by not honouring the tickets that have already been booked, AZ are already not following the rules of the fare and breaching the contract?


You are correct Sir! ^

I think that is a common assumption here: that having paper tickets guarantees the existence of an itinerary, regardless of what happens on the airlines' computers.

It's not just an assumption, it's a contractual provision stated in most airlines' Contract of Carriage.

It's not page 15 for most. It's post 820.

Actually, the discussion starts at about post 815 and goes from there. Your point is well taken, though. :)

Mike

A suggestion:

(this is probably what I'll do)

Everyone who bought the tickets and got some kind of confirmation sue in their local small claims court. Sue Alitalia and the ticketing agency, Orbitz or whatever. Court costs are generally pretty modest in small claims court. Rules of evidence and what have you are relaxed, and SC court judges are often inclined to give the "little guy" a break.

Even if you don't win, it will be sweet revenge to force these entities to defend all these little lawsuits. I can tell you from experience they'll likely use large law firms for the defense and it will cost them plenty.

I will sue for my Small claims court jurisdictional limit of $3000, and make the case that Mr S and I had a nice trip planned, meeting up with friends, a stopover in Milan long enough to see some important art, etc.

And with the crazy way airlines do their fares, who knew this was a mistake?

I am debating doing the same thing. Many times, the company won't even be present to defend itself (I doubt AZ will send its people to the Oshkosh, WI municipal court...) :eek:, which is an automatic win for the little guy.
I went online today and printed the current price for a comparable itinerary. That's what I'm going to ask for, since that what it would cost me to replace this trip that now not being honored (of course, if the small claims court max is only $3k, then I'm only going to ask for $3k...)

I think that is a common assumption here: that having paper tickets guarantees the existence of an itinerary, regardless of what happens on the airlines' computers.

Are paper tickets a type of 'currency' whose validity cannot be challenged? I honestly don't know.

Paper tickets are a type of currency in as far as they are part of a transaction settlement form of payment -- which is exactly what a currency is.

Exactly, and this fare was widely publicized by FT and (not so much to my liking) Fare Alert.

Also, airlines have undocumented unpublished fare sales every day. Why should any of us concede this is an alleged mistake?

Spirit Air: $9 to the Caribbean.
USAir: 50-cent flights to Rome.

I have a printed itinerary from Orbitz that says "Your flight is confirmed. The airline is assigning seats at check-in."

What does "your flight is confirmed" mean if the entire ticket can then be cancelled?

I am debating doing the same thing. Many times, the company won't even be present to defend itself (I doubt AZ will send its people to the Oshkosh, WI municipal court...) :eek:, which is an automatic win for the little guy.

Again, this assumes that your local court doesn't throw the case out due to lack of jurisdiction. See post 1608.

Mike

"Have paper, will fly" isn't an old mantra? :D

Did those who ordered through Travelocity get a ticket number displayed at the bottom of their PNRs on the website? Because I recieved an e-mail yesterday telling me that my tickets were printed, but I'm not showing any ticket number. Travelocity is my last hope, as everyone else has canceled, despite getting in on things for my first booking at around 11 PM PST.

Exactly, and this fare was widely publicized by FT and (not so much to my liking) Fare Alert.

Also, airlines have undocumented unpublished fare sales every day. Why should any of us concede this is an alleged mistake?

Heck, FI just offered $45 RT fares to Europe.

Have we discerned any pattern in which reservations were cancelled and which were not? (I have 2 alive, 2 cancelled... one of the ones that's alive has a segment on AA.. all 4 had ticket numbers... the two that were cancelled were the last 2 I booked)

No point in emailing anyone. Either the tickets have been sent or they haven't been. Your finding out the tracking number won't change anything.Not true in my case, I leave the country tomorrow,
and having the track for arrival this morning,
I delayed running some errands so as not to miss Brown.

Knock Knock..
whos there?
UPS
sign, sign, sign, sign....
this happened a few mins ago, at 10 AM.

Opening my 4 Next Day Air envelopes:
......each one contains a handwritten note from Liz
saying I had provided conflicting information.
Therefore, my ticket will be sitting on her desk,
and I must come to Wacker Drive to discuss the issue.
To make an appointment, the deadline is yesterday.
.....................
the above is NOT TRUE,
just a nightmare/fantasy
when I dozed off a bit ago..

Everybody awake now? :D

Actually all four paper tix are in hand,
issued in Nashville on 55 stock,
showing D class and DRTCA9 fare basis.

Sweet? Good to Go ??
We'll see. I remember AC fiasco rather well.

Now logging off, I'll check back in 2 weeks
after I return from MNL and the smoke has cleared.

But a great big THANKS to Rosj. :-: :-: :-: :-: :-:

One thing that is a bit confusing to me.....it is being said here that even having a paper ticket in hand (for those that have received them) doesn't mean that you have a valid ticket...well then when is it that you do indeed know that you have a valid ticket if not then?? When do you have something you can count on? We seem to be learning that 'confirmed' means nothing....'ticket numbers issued' mean nothing...now 'paper ticket in hand' means nothing? :eek:

Again, this assumes that your local court doesn't throw the case out due to lack of jurisdiction. See post 1608.

Mike

Selling goods in a local jurisdiction -- in Wisconsin -- is often sufficient for jurisdiction to be applicable. Collecting the amount due to judgment is another matter.

I think I will be flying if I have paper tickets in hand. I'm going to get my favor and waiver from one SkyTeam airline even if it won't be DL. :D

Collecting the amount due to judgment is another matter.

This is true as well - and, perhaps, even more important. Having the judgment means nothing if you and your jurisidiction have no real means of collecting.

Mike

Check this crap out....

Cheaptickets sends me UPS tracking number via email, at my request. Quick check of UPS....

Package Progress:


Location Date Local Time Activity
ANAHEIM, CA, US 04/06/2006 8:42 A.M. A DELIVERY CHANGE REQUEST FOR THIS PACKAGE WILL BE PROCESSED;RETURN TO SENDER PENDING
04/06/2006 8:04 A.M. OUT FOR DELIVERY
04/06/2006 8:00 A.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
ONTARIO, CA, US 04/06/2006 5:39 A.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
04/06/2006 4:29 A.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
LOUISVILLE, KY, US 04/06/2006 3:14 A.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
LOUISVILLE, KY, US 04/05/2006 11:51 P.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
NASHVILLE, TN, US 04/05/2006 8:04 P.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
04/05/2006 6:47 P.M. ORIGIN SCAN
US 04/05/2006 11:01 A.M. BILLING INFORMATION RECEIVED


And, I am not at home to accept if they attempt delivery... I am going right home in hopes I am last on the route. Damn! :mad:

This to me says ... perhaps they will honor in hand tickets.

I'm assuming that at some point we'll be contacted by Orbitz etc. to be told of the cancellation. Wondering what they'll say...

Guessing that the banks of lawyers are hard at work on the email .

One thing that is a bit confusing to me.....it is being said here that even having a paper ticket in hand (for those that have received them) doesn't mean that you have a valid ticket...well then when is it that you do indeed know that you have a valid ticket if not then?? When do you have something you can count on? We seem to be learning that 'confirmed' means nothing....'ticket numbers issued' mean nothing...now 'paper ticket in hand' means nothing? :eek:

Are you asking at what point should a customer reasonably rely upon a booking that breach of contract applies if the carrier fails to transport? ;)

Now, the important news. AZ, Orbitz and CT are regrettably all either lying or are terribly confused

Most CSR have their performance measured by call time, not accuracy.

I just keep calling back until I get an answer I feel is accurate.

Steve B.

Check this crap out....

Cheaptickets sents me UPS tracking number via email, at my request. Quick check of UPS....

Package Progress:


Location Date Local Time Activity
ANAHEIM, CA, US 04/06/2006 8:42 A.M. A DELIVERY CHANGE REQUEST FOR THIS PACKAGE WILL BE PROCESSED;RETURN TO SENDER PENDING
04/06/2006 8:04 A.M. OUT FOR DELIVERY
04/06/2006 8:00 A.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
ONTARIO, CA, US 04/06/2006 5:39 A.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
04/06/2006 4:29 A.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
LOUISVILLE, KY, US 04/06/2006 3:14 A.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
LOUISVILLE, KY, US 04/05/2006 11:51 P.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
NASHVILLE, TN, US 04/05/2006 8:04 P.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
04/05/2006 6:47 P.M. ORIGIN SCAN
US 04/05/2006 11:01 A.M. BILLING INFORMATION RECEIVED


And, I am not at work to accept if they attempt delivery... I am going right home in hopes I am last on the route. Damn! :mad:

This to me says ... perhaps they will honor in hand tickets.

a sender can recall a package from UPS - I'd call them and innocently ask about the shipment and see if you can pick it up from the local shipping depot

$170 taxes/fees on a $33 ticket isn't monstrous?

OK, disproportionately monstrous. Believe I saw a $250 fee on a $1 ticket.

Steve B.

[QUOTE=TelevisionTdTina]Check this crap out....

Cheaptickets sents me UPS tracking number via email, at my request. Quick check of UPS....

Package Progress:


Location Date Local Time Activity
ANAHEIM, CA, US 04/06/2006 8:42 A.M. A DELIVERY CHANGE REQUEST FOR THIS PACKAGE WILL BE PROCESSED;RETURN TO SENDER PENDING
QUOTE]

Does this mean that cheaptickets is asking for the return of the package sent??

One thing that is a bit confusing to me.....it is being said here that even having a paper ticket in hand (for those that have received them) doesn't mean that you have a valid ticket...well then when is it that you do indeed know that you have a valid ticket if not then?? When do you have something you can count on? We seem to be learning that 'confirmed' means nothing....'ticket numbers issued' mean nothing...now 'paper ticket in hand' means nothing? :eek:

confirmed + issued + paper ticket = your flight is good, unless there was an obvious error, where "obvious" and "error" are defined by the airline. unless it was your error; you aren't allowed to make mistakes.

[QUOTE=TelevisionTdTina]Check this crap out....

Cheaptickets sents me UPS tracking number via email, at my request. Quick check of UPS....

Package Progress:


Location Date Local Time Activity
ANAHEIM, CA, US 04/06/2006 8:42 A.M. A DELIVERY CHANGE REQUEST FOR THIS PACKAGE WILL BE PROCESSED;RETURN TO SENDER PENDING
QUOTE]

Does this mean that cheaptickets is asking for the return of the package sent??


Yes, having those hard tickets is bad for them...

-Vincent

Why did I chose UPS second day air. :(

Exactly, and this fare was widely publicized by FT and (not so much to my liking) Fare Alert.

Also, airlines have undocumented unpublished fare sales every day. Why should any of us concede this is an alleged mistake?

The US 50cent flights won't work since that was, in essence, a highly advertised, lottery-type promotion whereby a precious precious few consumers were able to win. Not at all the same.

Somewhat ditto for the Spirit flights. These were very high profile advertised fares to generate destination awareness for a small carrier. Lots of media buzz around it and that was their sole intention.

In both cases, the precident doesn't ring true since they were both aggressively advertised and in place for a substantial timeframe for consumers.

In the AZ case, the pricing was nearly 99% discounted from normal pricing and was yanked in about 12 hours' time with an almost immediate cancellation of the reservations.

I'm not trying to poke at the hornet's nest here, but that's the simple truth.

I know those of you ticketed really want to make these flights, and I hope you do. But to suggest that a reasonable consumer would think this was a promotional fare ($33 r/t in C?!?!?!?) is too far over the line to be taken seriously. Sorry.

Wow. That thread grew fast.

I'd assume, at this point, that Travelocity will fight this one with AZ. That gives them an opportunity to restore some of their standing after the Japan debacle. It's realtively easy for them, as they pulled it before too many tickets were sold, and also because it's clearly AZ's mistake.

Has anyone learned from previous mistakes? Does the following make sense: The more tickets they sell, the less likely they are to honor the deal? Blame AZ for not catching it quickly enough, and Farealert for spreading the word.

Another lesson is to branch out to different travel agencies. Maybe the EUR25 Opodo.de booking fee will prove to have been a good investment once again?!

The US 50cent flights won't work since that was, in essence, a highly advertised, lottery-type promotion whereby a precious precious few consumers were able to win. Not at all the same.

Somewhat ditto for the Spirit flights. These were very high profile advertised fares to generate destination awareness for a small carrier. Lots of media buzz around it and that was their sole intention.

In both cases, the precident doesn't ring true since they were both aggressively advertised and in place for a substantial timeframe for consumers.

In the AZ case, the pricing was nearly 99% discounted from normal pricing and was yanked in about 12 hours' time with an almost immediate cancellation of the reservations.

I'm not trying to poke at the hornet's nest here, but that's the simple truth.

I know those of you ticketed really want to make these flights, and I hope you do. But to suggest that a reasonable consumer would think this was a promotional fare ($33 r/t in C?!?!?!?) is too far over the line to be taken seriously. Sorry.


sure but think of Aer Lingus, Ryanair, BMI, and a host of other European airline which regularly offer $0.01 fares. Ryanair gives away 25% of its flights for free.

Exactly, and this fare was widely publicized by FT and (not so much to my liking) Fare Alert.

Also, airlines have undocumented unpublished fare sales every day. Why should any of us concede this is an alleged mistake?

Exactly. Look at the MSP-LON fare on Icelandair the day before. 45 bucks.

Blame AZ for not catching it quickly enough, and Farealert for spreading the word.
FareAlert sent this out when it was almost dead already. Blaming FareAlert doesn't seem reasonable on this one, IMHO.

But isn't the whole problem here that by not honouring the tickets that have already been booked, AZ are already not following the rules of the fare and breaching the contract?

If they take that stance, then yes, they are in breach, just as they are if they choose to selectively honor some of the fare rules.

Oh boy, here we go again with the "How do we know it wasn't a mistake, for all we know they meant to have a sale fare for $39RT in biz" garbage... :td: :rolleyes:

Did those who ordered through Travelocity get a ticket number displayed at the bottom of their PNRs on the website?
i have the paper tickets in my hand and none of my itineraries show the ticket numbers on the website.

Oh boy, here we go again with the "How do we know it wasn't a mistake, for all we know they meant to have a sale fare for $39RT in biz" garbage... :td: :rolleyes:

Tell me, was the $45 MSP-LON on Icelandair a mistake? I really don't know...

i have the paper tickets in my hand and none of my itineraries show the ticket numbers on the website.

I have airline tickets booked on Travelocity three months ago whose ticket numbers don't show under "My Trips". It's a known issue.

People with paper Travelocity tickets take note: ****bag airlines has cancelled the reservation anyway. I realize it sucks to make mistakes, but when ya screw up, honor it.

FareAlert sent this out when it was almost dead already. Blaming FareAlert doesn't seem reasonable on this one, IMHO.

I realize that Farealert was not the main culprit this time, gleff, but I'm sure you'll agree with me that an airline's desire to cancel these deals is positively correlated with the number of tickets sold. Clearly, if they sold a hundred thousand tickets, they could not honor the deal, but if they only sold five, they wouldn't go through the trouble of cancelling.

confirmed + issued + paper ticket = your flight is good, unless there was an obvious error, where "obvious" and "error" are defined by the airline. unless it was your error; you aren't allowed to make mistakes.
Alitalia doesn't care. They're cancelling anyway. I realize I made an offer, they accepted it, and should have to abide by it, but they're not going to without a fight, if then.

The weird part is that most people who have been cancelled have received no word from the travel agent or Alitalia. All my segments have dropped off my Orbitz itinerary but I still have a ticket number and the fare rules still show DRTCA9.

Although I realize it's cancelled from reading this thread, it would still be nice for Orbitz to step and send an email with an explanation.

Literally 3.5 hours on hold. CSR finally comes back and says - Alitallia cancelled those flights, so we have to cancel the tickets, we are recalling your UPS packages. She assured me there are many others in the same position.

me - "Cancelled the flights? Fine, book me on another, just as would happen with any other flight cancellation, just keep me in biz."

Orbitz - "Nope, can't do that sir - we never do that."

Arghhhh - what complete BS.

FareAlert sent this out when it was almost dead already. Blaming FareAlert doesn't seem reasonable on this one, IMHO.

then can the blame be placed on the person in the other thread that emailed/faxed the airline in Toronto and Milian in hopes being rewarded perhaps by having her fare honored.
:p

Tell me, was the $45 MSP-LON on Icelandair a mistake? I really don't know...
Yes it was. That same fare class was $448 up until it was mistakenly set at $45, and then was corrected back to $448.

I realize that Farealert was not the main culprit this time, gleff, but I'm sure you'll agree with me that an airline's desire to cancel these deals is positively correlated with the number of tickets sold. Clearly, if they sold a hundred thousand tickets, they could not honor the deal, but if they only sold five, they wouldn't go through the trouble of cancelling.

Agreed. A company would want to limit their exposure, so if their exposure was $50,000, it's a cost of doing business. At $15 million, that's a huge risk.

I am debating doing the same thing. Many times, the company won't even be present to defend itself (I doubt AZ will send its people to the Oshkosh, WI municipal court...) :eek:, which is an automatic win for the little guy.
I went online today and printed the current price for a comparable itinerary. That's what I'm going to ask for, since that what it would cost me to replace this trip that now not being honored (of course, if the small claims court max is only $3k, then I'm only going to ask for $3k...)
Most companies have buried in their TOS a specification about where legal action must take place. When you use their site, you agree to those TOS. For example, in the case of Orbitz, you would have to sue them in Cook County, Illinois (Chicago) -- it is right there in the TOS. So they don't have to come you to, you have to go to them. But, hey, it is more miles, right? ;)

We blogged about it today:

http://www.whatwetalkedaboutatlunch.com

We get a decent number of readers...

-dr

Agreed. A company would want to limit their exposure, so if their exposure was $50,000, it's a cost of doing business. At $15 million, that's a huge risk.

finally some sense here. This is precisely the case and should be completely understandable to one and all. Sure, I know you'd love to have 2C in Magnifica Class round trip to Cyprus! Who wouldn't?!?! But if 1200 tickets were sold and AZ has one flight to YYZ a day, assuming 20 seats in J (maybe it's 25?), that means 60 straight days of their Business Class product is sold out completely with folks on fares that won't even cover the cost of the food they consume on said flight. 2 months of flights at these prices? Ouch.

[QUOTE=TelevisionTdTina]Check this crap out....

Cheaptickets sents me UPS tracking number via email, at my request. Quick check of UPS....

Package Progress:


Location Date Local Time Activity
ANAHEIM, CA, US 04/06/2006 8:42 A.M. A DELIVERY CHANGE REQUEST FOR THIS PACKAGE WILL BE PROCESSED;RETURN TO SENDER PENDING
QUOTE]

Does this mean that cheaptickets is asking for the return of the package sent??

Yes.

But it's not Orbitz who you have to go after. It's the carrier.

Agreed. A company would want to limit their exposure, so if their exposure was $50,000, it's a cost of doing business. At $15 million, that's a huge risk.

what abt the LAX to NAN for $50 after tax. Probably tons of people cashed in on that.

Suing in your own small claims court jurisdiction may not be sufficient, because it may not be the proper jurisdiction in which to bring action. See page 15 of this thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=509380&page=55&pp=15) for more discussion on small claims court in relation to fare errors.

Mike

Maybe it's me, but I find the fact that an ad for Expedia's European seat sale continues to appear in this thread to be quite ironic :cool:

I'm still crossing my fingers, hoping that people will get their flights...

I'm not saying we should question if this is a mistake or not, but rather, why should we just lay down and accept that it is? I think for any of use to be successful in using these tickets we need a multi-faceted approach and take every possible position that will benefit us. I think this is one of them.


Oh boy, here we go again with the "How do we know it wasn't a mistake, for all we know they meant to have a sale fare for $39RT in biz" garbage... :td: :rolleyes:

But it's not Orbitz who you have to go after. It's the carrier.


I called AZ corporate office in NYC, they said when you purchase through a travel agent they are rephonsible for the ticket for th entire trip?

Does that make sense?

Anyone try calling Cendant Corporate yet?

-Vincent

Literally 3.5 hours on hold. CSR finally comes back and says - Alitallia cancelled those flights, so we have to cancel the tickets, we are recalling your UPS packages. She assured me there are many others in the same position.

me - "Cancelled the flights? Fine, book me on another, just as would happen with any other flight cancellation, just keep me in biz."

Orbitz - "Nope, can't do that sir - we never do that."

Arghhhh - what complete BS.After getting my paper tix, when I called Travelocity to see about adding FF numbers (or more to the point, to see if the rez still existed), Travelocity said it had been cancelled by the airline. The guy didn't speak great English (outsourcing now?) but called Alatalia to see what was going on. Alatalia offered the following two solutions: pay the difference between the mistake and the new fare (for the same flights -- i.e. flights aren't cancelled) or take a refund. I declined both until I find out exactly what they're obligated to do given the fact that I have two paper tickets in my hands that are "Issued By Alitalia."

Oh boy, here we go again with the "How do we know it wasn't a mistake, for all we know they meant to have a sale fare for $39RT in biz" garbage... :td: :rolleyes:

That's a canard discussion. A valid ticket issued and delivered is a valid ticket issued and delivered regardless. The way a contract is established is clear. The amount of consideration was sufficient at the time for AZ tickets to be issued. Going back and arbitrarily re-neging is wrong no matter how you cut it. "Mistake" or not doesn't much matter when AZ and its authorized agents loaded the fare and made it publicly available for sale at the price it wanted.

Oh boy, here we go again with the "How do we know it wasn't a mistake, for all we know they meant to have a sale fare for $39RT in biz" garbage... :td: :rolleyes:

I agree with you whlinder

Lets get real here people, you all scrambled to buy tickets, knowing that the fare was wrong, and now you are threatening lawsuits and media campaigns to expose the issue........ Laughable at Best.

theres a saying: "there is no such thing as a free lunch"........

Im sure if you got to fly on these uber-ridiculous fares, there would be some who would have the hide to complain about something before, during or after their flights.

I agree with you whlinder

Lets get real here people, you all scrambled to buy tickets, knowing that the fare was wrong, and now you are threatening lawsuits and media campaigns to expose the issue........ Laughable at Best.

theres a saying: "there is no such thing as a free lunch"........

Im sure if you got to fly on these uber-ridiculous fares, there would be some who would have the hide to complain about something before, during or after their flights.

Put the shoe on the other foot, the airline screwed up and this is the cost of doing business badly.

Im sure if you got to fly on these uber-ridiculous fares, there would be some who would have the hide to complain about something before, during or after their flights. Darn right. I'd already drafted my complaint about the 60 degree recline and the lack of PTVs. :D

Agreed. A company would want to limit their exposure, so if their exposure was $50,000, it's a cost of doing business. At $15 million, that's a huge risk.

Even honoring all tickets would not cost AZ $15 million. AZ's YYZ-Italy cabins full retail value today is not the cost for AZ. We are not even talking about $1.2 million of real cash here under any circumstances where pax are flying.

theres a saying: "there is no such thing as a free lunch"........

You must be new here.

I agree with you whlinder

Lets get real here people, you all scrambled to buy tickets, knowing that the fare was wrong, and now you are threatening lawsuits and media campaigns to expose the issue........ Laughable at Best.

theres a saying: "there is no such thing as a free lunch"........

Im sure if you got to fly on these uber-ridiculous fares, there would be some who would have the hide to complain about something before, during or after their flights.
$200 is not free. Fare sales of under $10 happen. Stop cross posting (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5582570&postcount=4)

Lets get real here people, you all scrambled to buy tickets, knowing that the fare was wrong, and now you are threatening lawsuits and media campaigns to expose the issue........ Laughable at Best.



Alitalia has honored Biz Class fares like this in the past. Why wouldn't we expect them to do it this time. Oh yeah, the first time "they were just being nice". :td:

You must be new here.

I guess I should have said there is no such thing as a free lunch EXCEPT on Flyertalk...... My Bad!

I agree with you whlinder

Lets get real here people, you all scrambled to buy tickets, knowing that the fare was wrong, and now you are threatening lawsuits and media campaigns to expose the issue........ Laughable at Best.

theres a saying: "there is no such thing as a free lunch"........

Im sure if you got to fly on these uber-ridiculous fares, there would be some who would have the hide to complain about something before, during or after their flights.


Jappelbee-

There is a lot of past precedent for fares like this being honored. In January, for instance, I flew down to ACA on one of the zero dollar fares, I also got in one of the crazy priced tickets to HNL for this summer. Going back further there was the NAN deal for 50 dollars, the famous BA WT+ deal, and icelandair's 99 fares to Iceland. The fact of the matter is that crazy deals like this are normally honored. AZ, Expedia, Orbitz, etc are handiling this really poorly by cancelling tickets with no/illogical explanations.

theres a saying: "there is no such thing as a free lunch"........


So now our responses should be tempered based on an old adage?

In my opinion, it is irrelevant as to what kind of fare this is- be it mistake, promotional, etc.. The bottom line is that tickets were purchased and consitute a contract. There has to be accountability.

It might be different if consumers were affored the same ability to arbitrarily cancel tickets based on mistakes.

I agree with you whlinder

Lets get real here people, you all scrambled to buy tickets, knowing that the fare was wrong, and now you are threatening lawsuits and media campaigns to expose the issue........ Laughable at Best.

theres a saying: "there is no such thing as a free lunch"........

Im sure if you got to fly on these uber-ridiculous fares, there would be some who would have the hide to complain about something before, during or after their flights.

I agree that it's hard to believe anyone really thought this was a legit fare, even given how bizarre airfare pricing can be. but if airlines can constantly make mistakes without taking responsibility, sometimes at the expense of travelers, who can blame FTers for getting up in arms? it's naive to think that corporations care more about customers than shareholders - very few really do, but most airlines seem to have some work to do.

Not like it matters if they're canceling tix, but wouldn't an airline or travel agent have insurance for things like this?

Even honoring all tickets would not cost AZ $15 million. AZ's YYZ-Italy cabins full retail value today is not the cost for AZ. We are not even talking about $1.2 million of real cash here under any circumstances where pax are flying.

^ to a better analysis. unless they would have otherwise definitely sold all these seats at the "correct" fare, they didn't lose $15 million

I agree with you whlinder

Lets get real here people, you all scrambled to buy tickets, knowing that the fare was wrong, and now you are threatening lawsuits and media campaigns to expose the issue........ Laughable at Best.I'm normally one of the first people to laugh at bogus lawsuits and much ado about nothing, but Alatalia screwed up, accepted people's money, actually issued tickets, and then went in and cancelled them. Would Alatalia be cancelling tickets if they charged $5,000 when they should've charged $500? Would they even let you get out of it if it were it a non-refundable ticket, even though it's an obvious error? I didn't think so. Where I work (high tech), if we quote ridiculously low service contract rates and the other party accepts them, we're stuck with it.

So if I decide to buy a 1900 RT Y ticket, I can cancel because it was obviously a pricing mistake. I should try that one next time when the airlines try hitting me with change fee's.

I don't think it's good business sense to cancel reservations without contacting the purchaser. This is handled very poorly by Orbitz. A simple e-mail or phone call with an explanation would have been good enough for me.

Tickets haven't been charged yet, but Orbitz made a charge - I bought 3 tix for me & 2 friends:

Still no tracking numbers though... :(

From Amex:

Transaction Date: 04/05/2006
Post Date: 04/05/2006
Transaction Description: ORBITZ.COM CHICAGO IL
45354285P ORB*6A6FD8MV

Charge: $51.92
Merchant Address: ORBITZ LLC
200 S WACKER DR STE 1900

CHICAGO IL 60606-5857
USA

Merchant Type: ON-LINE TRVL AGENTS
Doing Business As: No Additional Information

So for those who think we're being out of line for expecting what we paid for, I take it that there should be no complaining when XX Airlines offers a $198 transcon fare, pulls it as a "mistake", and cancels the booking (perhaps conveniently a day or so before your planned Thanksgiving trip, since loads are sky-high and they can get some Y fares on the plane instead)? Because that's where we ultimately headed folks if we take this assertion to its logical extreme...

I've had dozens of high fare biz travel go AZ's way. Sometimes the seats didn't recline, IFE didn't work, amenity kids were not available, etc. Should AZ give the pax's all the money back because BA would have provided that and more and that pax would arrive rested instead of heading to work without proper sleep? If an airline or travel agent can arbitrarily get away with such, pax should be able to arbitrarily get their money back when the airline fails to deliver to expectations. Parity.

That's a canard discussion. A valid ticket issued and delivered is a valid ticket issued and delivered regardless. The way a contract is established is clear. The amount of consideration was sufficient at the time for AZ tickets to be issued. Going back and arbitrarily re-neging is wrong no matter how you cut it. "Mistake" or not doesn't much matter when AZ and its authorized agents loaded the fare and made it publicly available for sale at the price it wanted.

It wasn't really the price AZ wanted or intended, of course. I have no problem with the valid ticket issued, CC charged, contract established part. Re-neging on that is not cool on AZ, though with as many tickets as seemed to be sold I would understand if they do. Fighting that battle to get it honored makes complete sense.

I just won't play the game of "Well I didn't know it was a mistake." Yes you did. Everyone who has read this thread knew.

^ to a better analysis. unless they would have otherwise definitely sold all these seats at the "correct" fare, they didn't lose $15 million

You are right, their real cost is the number of tickets they were unable to sell for 3.9K plus the marginal cost of fuel and food. Truth be told, one could value the cost to the airline at anywhere from $50 per ticket to 4K per ticket. (My guess is the number is closer to the former, though... unless their loads on that flight are excellent)

I agree with you whlinder

Lets get real here people, you all scrambled to buy tickets, knowing that the fare was wrong, and now you are threatening lawsuits and media campaigns to expose the issue........ Laughable at Best.

theres a saying: "there is no such thing as a free lunch"........

Im sure if you got to fly on these uber-ridiculous fares, there would be some who would have the hide to complain about something before, during or after their flights.


Not laughable at all, at least according to Travelocity/Sabre, who's fighting with AZ mgmt to honor the fares. The fact is these fares were available for TWELVE HOURS and the GDS went through multiple refreshes throughout that time.

The fact that AZ just sat back and didn't do anything but let people buy up all the tickets is just absurd. I think if you're noticing that tickets that normally go for 3K are selling at a rate of dozens per minute, that should be a tip off that something's up and they should've shut down their booking temporarily to fix it. The fact that they didn't, coupled with the fact that all the booking systems, ITN and Sabre in particular, showed the same fare and allowed the same fare basis code means something was up.

If they're going to let this go on for 12 hours without doing anything about it, they deserve to get screwed. Lord knows the airlines (generally speaking) screw us consistently. They f*cked up and they should have to deal with the consequences of their actions, or rather, inactions accordingly. If I'm late paying my credit card bill by one day, the bank gets to charge me 35 dollars and possibly raise my interest rate. Why should it be any different for AZ or anyone else for that matter?

https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/Corp.asp?546084

If this link works, it shows that Expedia is registered to do business in Missouri. You can check this sort of thing online easily with most states. Got to your state's Secretary of State website and look for the search engine for business entities.

If you file suite against the entity, serve them at the registered agent given by this search.

Anyone with any specific questions can PM me.

If you try this route it's true some of you may get nothing. Some may win judgments, some may get settlement offers from the entity on the grounds it's cheaper to settle than to defend.

So for those who think we're being out of line for expecting what we paid for, I take it that there should be no complaining when XX Airlines offers a $198 transcon fare, pulls it as a "mistake", and cancels the booking (perhaps conveniently a day or so before your planned Thanksgiving trip, since loads are sky-high and they can get some Y fares on the plane instead)? Because that's where we ultimately headed folks if we take this assertion to its logical extreme...

Exactly. Specific performance is important here.