what the heck do they want?
Maybe they need your translation services. :p

Yeah, there is no bazar and there is nothing to deal about. A contract is a contract.

My friend, may I ask you: Where did you find any official information about honoring/not honoring the deal from the Alitalia side?

I'm going by the statements in the canadian press. granted, they quoted a brian hoyt of orbitz, not someone from AZ, but my. hoyt's words were: "What the airline agreed to do was honour all of the fares that had been ticketed through Orbitz.com."

and of course no mention of TCY or CT, but as I went through orbitz I'll make sure to point out this statement if a couple months from now I'm still having trouble with my itin

Maybe they need your translation services. :p

Haven't thought of that!maybe I do get another ticket or two,right? :p :p

CANCELLATIONS ANY TIME TICKET IS NON-REFUNDABLE. CHANGES ANY TIME CHANGES NOT PERMITTED IN CASE OF REISSUE/REVALIDATION.

This is from the current set of fare rules. What does this mean, exactly, in terms of changes? It says in one sentence changes any time, and then immediately after that says, not permitted in case of "reissue/revalidation". I don't understand.

Perhaps someone such as KVS would be kind enough to answer this:
How do the new/amended/screwed up itineraries get fed to "My Itineraries" on Orbitz? ie, is this information dictated to Orbitz who then manually enters it?...or does AZ have direct access to change the itinerary?

(member of the '07 swim team)

I called them!they said they just wanted to tell me that CT's working with AZ for the reistatement.They wanted me to be aware that CT is working on our side!nice....should I believe them?I specifically said that I apprecciate what they are doing, stressing that they should push AZ to honor the tickets with fare rules and all and not mess up with booked itineraries, if not to reaccomnodate us on AZ flights only over the pond.

Looks like I'm joining the swim team.

I was ticketed (and have my paper tickets) for YYZ-(aa)-JFK-FCO-LCA-MXP-YYZ. This afternoon my orbitz itin has changed to:

YYZ-(aa)-JFK (by itself - and it also still shows as ticketed by itself on aa.com)

YYZ-MXP-FCO-LCA (they actally booked me on an additional flight MXP-FCO to make my original FCO-LCA connection, and this new MXP-FCO segment is in Y instead of D like everything else on my original itin).

MXP-YYZ (but no LCA-MXP)

Looks like I'm in the same boat...just reversed. Rez has been reinstated as YYZ-FCO, LCA-MXP-YYZ. FCO-LCA got deleted.

In related news, AP is reporting that former FEMA director Michael Brown has been appointed to the board of Alitalia, and is doing a "helluva job."

Looks like I'm joining the swim team.

I was ticketed (and have my paper tickets) for YYZ-(aa)-JFK-FCO-LCA-MXP-YYZ. This afternoon my orbitz itin has changed to:

YYZ-(aa)-JFK (by itself - and it also still shows as ticketed by itself on aa.com)

YYZ-MXP-FCO-LCA (they actally booked me on an additional flight MXP-FCO to make my original FCO-LCA connection, and this new MXP-FCO segment is in Y instead of D like everything else on my original itin).

MXP-YYZ (but no LCA-MXP)

Your redudant/old segments have probably been cancelled in MAL-Italia's own system. You can find out for sure by calling and speaking to one of their CSR's, but be prepared to be treated rudely. For the latest round of changes to the previously uncancelled records, they just don't seem to have bothered to update any of the other systems.

Looks like I'm in the same boat...just reversed. Rez has been reinstated as YYZ-FCO, LCA-MXP-YYZ. FCO-LCA got deleted.

In related news, AP is reporting that former FEMA director Michael Brown has been appointed to the board of Alitalia, and is doing a "helluva job."

:D

..... by the way, welcome to the swim team. Do we need a Speedo-sponsorship? :eek:

Looks like I'm in the same boat...just reversed. Rez has been reinstated as YYZ-FCO, LCA-MXP-YYZ. FCO-LCA got deleted.

I doubt AZ is going to provide you with a boat.

Has anyone successfully lobbied to have their original itineraries restored after having been modified by AZ? And, if so, how?

Or is everyone taking a "wait and see" approach like me? :)

I'm still going to wait-and-see on the one they just messed up. My other booking hasn't been touched (except they upgraded the MXP-LCA segment from economy to business), but it was a simple YYZ-MXP-LCA-MXP-YYZ from the start.

Has anyone successfully lobbied to have their original itineraries restored after having been modified by AZ? And, if so, how?

Or is everyone taking a "wait and see" approach like me? :)

There is nothing to "wait and see" about anymore - Alitalia will not even consider budging unless they feel the pressure from customers and others to do so.

There is nothing to "wait and see" about anymore - Alitalia will not even consider budging unless they feel the pressure from customers and others to do so.

You think they are actually going to leave us with no LCA-MXP return? Isn't Orbitz going to have to reissue paper tix with the new itins and won't there be a problem with no return?

You think they are actually going to leave us with no LCA-MXP return? Isn't Orbitz going to have to reissue paper tix with the new itins and won't there be a problem with no return?

And will Cyprus Immigration even let you into the country without a return ticket and reservation? Hey, that could be one way to move your return date up and get more time in Italy! :D

You think they are actually going to leave us with no LCA-MXP return? Isn't Orbitz going to have to reissue paper tix with the new itins and won't there be a problem with no return?

1. AZ will likely not allow the TAs to reissue sans reprice the tickets no matter what happens - any reticketing will probably go through AZ directly.

2. There's nothing AZ can do about the LCA segments if CY proves unwilling to allocate more codeshare inventory - AZ can overbook its own flights as necessary, but simply can't do that for the Cyprus Airways flights.

:D

..... by the way, welcome to the swim team. Do we need a Speedo-sponsorship? :eek:

I would hate to see some of the FTers I have met swimming around in a Speedo.

:p

I was in Boston on Monday and I went to the Alitalia ticketing desk. I spoke with a rep and then eventually her supervisor. I brought my paper tickets and the print outs of the fare rules that have been posted here - including the Orbitz screen shots. She wouldn't make any changes at all for me. In fact, she couldn't get it through her thick, rude, small Alitalia-mind that the rules have been changed (improperly) and that the fare I paid has nothing to do with honoring a contract. She kept saying, "Well, since you got such a good deal on the tickets shouldn't you just be happy with what you get." No f'cking way! I want what I purchased - nothing less, nothing more.

So, I second the notion that we need to deal directly with Rome on this issue. The frontline Alitalia staff are useless. In fact, they are worse than useless, because they are rude and indifferent.

I called them!they said they just wanted to tell me that CT's working with AZ for the reistatement.They wanted me to be aware that CT is working on our side!nice....should I believe them?I specifically said that I apprecciate what they are doing, stressing that they should push AZ to honor the tickets with fare rules and all and not mess up with booked itineraries, if not to reaccomnodate us on AZ flights only over the pond.

I wouldn't count on it. I tried pushing the date change issue via e-mail, and the first response came from the regular CT CS e-mail addy. Then, after I brought in the GCC and Tarrifs and such, they responded with an e-mail address callled escalations@cheaptickets.com. The first reply I got was:

I apologize for any confusions but any time you make any changes to a
reservations we have to reprice the reservation.

The second reply I got was:

Any changes made to a reservation require a reprice I am sorry for your
inconvenice but if we change the reservation we will have to reprice the
reservations.

The third and final reply I got was:

Inquiries such as yours are only handled via phone. If you need
assistance in changing your air reservation you must call our customer
service department for assistance. It will not be changed or handled via
email correspondence. I understand hold times can be long but any and
all fare difference and fees are calculated and must be approved at the
time of the phone call. Our air customer service line is 1-877-506-8371

Of course, I wouldn't call the main CS number, I'd call up the exchange desk at 888-378-9638 for those of you who haven't been following this as closely as I have. Having said all that, they did reinstate my itin quite quickly and it was exactly as booked.

I think the only reason AZ didn't f&ck around with it was because it was YYZ-MXP-LCA-FCO-MXP-YYZ and the in bound and out bound flights were midweek.

My TLC res, which had me leaving on a Mon and returning on a Fri, was changed to leaving on Mon and retunring on Thurs. I'm going to call TLC a little later today and see if I can't get this straightened out, as one of the mgrs there was supposed to be working on this. He said he'd start this Mon. on it, and he seems to work Weds., so I figure today would be the best day to call and follow up.

Perhaps someone such as KVS would be kind enough to answer this:
How do the new/amended/screwed up itineraries get fed to "My Itineraries" on Orbitz? ie, is this information dictated to Orbitz who then manually enters it?...or does AZ have direct access to change the itinerary?It's kinda complicated, but the short version is that there are 2 separate PNRs, residing in 2 separate systems, and each having its own PNR locator code. Neither the TA (e.g. Orbitz), nor the airline (AZ) has direct access to each other's PNR.

Each of the 2 parties can make changes to their respective PNRs, and then a message gets sent to the other party. The other party then has to act on that message, and take an appropriate action (depending on what the message says), and update their PNR.

The situation gets even more complicated, when the itinerary contains segments of other carriers (e.g. AA). Then you have 3 or more separate PNRs.

So the bottom line is that in circumstances such as these, what you are seeing via your TA's website, may or may not be the same as what AZ is seeing. That is why you may see duplicate (or missing segments), even when they do not actually exist...

I just found the relevant provisions of the tariff rules that deal with fare changes/increases. The international tariffs are pretty much standardized across all IATA airlines, so while the following is taken from HA/HP tariffs, it is very likely that AZ's tariffs say the same thing.

If someone has some time to spare and can visit an airport ticketing desk or one of the AZ's city offices, and ask to see their Tariffs (they have to let you examine them upon request). It would be a 200-300 page document, and the relevant provisions should be contained in Rule 5:


Rule 5: APPLICATION OF TARIFF

Effective Rules, Fares and Charges

All carriage of passengers and/or baggage shall be subject to the carrier's rules, regulations, and tariffs in effect on the date of commencement of carriage covered by the first flight coupon of the ticket.

When the fares or charges collected are not the applicable fares or charges, the difference will be refunded to or collected from the passenger as may be appropriate.

Exception: no increase will be collected in cases where the ticket has been issued prior to the effective date of a tariff containing an increase in the applicable fare, effected through a change in fare level, a change in conditions governing the fare, or a cancellation of the fare itself, provided:

The originating international flight coupon of the ticket was issued for a specific flight at the fare contained in a tariff lawfully in effect on the date of ticket issuance (determined by the validation stamped or imprinted on the ticket.


The originating international flight shown on the ticket is not voluntarily changed at the passenger's request subsequent to the effective date of any increase in the applicable fare.


Flights other than the originating international flight are not voluntarily changed to reflect a revised routing via which the original fare charged would not have been applicable.


This provision shall apply only to the passenger to whom the ticket was originally issued.



If anyone can get a photocopy of this from an AZ office and then scan it in, it would be greatly appreciated. I have the GCC, I have the original fare rules, and I have shots of the actual tickets with prices, fare basis codes, etc., but I don't have a tangible copy of these. Would be really helpful for dealing with the official agencies, and to a lesser extent, the companies involved and the newsmedia.

It's kinda complicated, but the short version is that there are 2 separate PNRs, residing in 2 separate systems, and each having its own PNR locator code. Neither the TA (e.g. Orbitz), nor the airline (AZ) has direct access to each other's PNR.

Each of the 2 parties can make changes to their respective PNRs, and then a message gets sent to the other party. The other party then has to act on that message, and take an appropriate action (depending on what the message says), and update their PNR.

The situation gets even more complicated, when the itinerary contains segments of other carriers (e.g. AA). Then you have 3 or more separate PNRs.

So the bottom line is that in circumstances such as these, what you are seeing via your TA's website, may or may not be the same as what AZ is seeing. That is why you may see duplicate (or missing segments), even when they do not actually exist...

So if what I'm seeing on viewtrips.com hasn't changed since reinstatment, does that nec. mean that things have remained the same on AZs end? Or could I be looking at outdated/incorrect information? As I mentioned in a previous post, my CT itin was the only one that wasn't messed with.

Has anyone with a changed reservation tried to simply get AZ to change their paper tickets to match what is currently reserved? If AZ balked at doing even that and the TA's still insist that any reticket/reissue would result in a reprice, then all of us with involuntarily changed itineraries are screwed.

So if what I'm seeing on viewtrips.com hasn't changed since reinstatment, does that nec. mean that things have remained the same on AZs end?

It is entirely possible that Alitalia has made changes to your booking in its PNR that would not be shown in your travel agent-booked PNR.

Or could I be looking at outdated/incorrect information?You could be... The only way to know for sure would be to call AZ and ask them to confirm your reservation -- be sure to have your AZ PNR locator handy when you call...

My Orbitz itinerary just got changed. Now I have both my ticketed original res, YYZ-JFK-FCO (all on DL) and a newly-arrived YYZ-MXP-FCO res (all AZ) leaving YYZ 25 minutes earlier. Return portions unchanged LCA-FCO-JFK (AZ) -YYZ (AA.) Hmmm...which flights should I choose?

But wait... let's check the PNRs...

Well, DL still has us on YYZ-JFK and FCO-LCA, but the JFK-FCO leg is gone. AZ... well, AZ's itinerary checking subroutines are... shall we say... inop? But I have faith that AZ will do the right thing.

Good news - no Comair RJ, no DL "J" seats. Bad news - MXP-FCO is in Y. But is that all the bad news? Only time will tell...

It would be nice if Orbitz had some few lines of code that would send you an email when your Orbitz-ticketed itineraries get yanked around after the sale is complete and the money (such as it is) is safely in the vendor's bank account.

But I am philosophical about all this. Gift horse mouths and all that.

The logistics of getting new paper tickets is something that I'm curious about too.

Has anyone with a changed reservation tried to simply get MAL-Italia to change their paper tickets to match what is currently reserved? If AZ balked at doing even that and the TA's still insist that any reticket/reissue would result in a reprice, then all of us with involuntarily changed itineraries are screwed.

Anyone?

Good news - no Comair RJ, no DL "J" seats. Bad news - MXP-FCO is in Y. But is that all the bad news? Only time will tell...


Y is the only service provided on domestic AZ flight, even though sometimes you might find yourself in one of those a/cs with the "Prima"(pretty much like US domestic first) seats...As your Y would be full fare, you can get in one of those seats.But I doubt you'll be able to know before checking-in as change of a/c happen often.Most likely it will be an all Y configured plane.You can live with that for less than a hour :p

You could be... The only way to know for sure would be to call AZ and ask them to confirm your reservation -- be sure to have your AZ PNR locator handy when you call...

For AZ etickets, the original ticket-related PNR locator prints out on the ticket receipt even when there is a new AZ PNR locator being used for confirmed travel using the original AZ eticket. (This is despite the older PNR locator going stale.) Is it the same way with AZ paper ticket receipts?

The logistics of getting new paper tickets is something that I'm curious about too.

In a rather stock email reply from CT today telling me I was the victim of a "schedule change"...it said:

When a schedule change occurs to a paper ticket, the tickets are exchanged when you check in for your flight. You will need to check in at the ticket counter on your day of travel to process the transaction.

In a rather stock email reply from CT today telling me I was the victim of a "schedule change"...it said:

When a schedule change occurs to a paper ticket, the tickets are exchanged when you check in for your flight. You will need to check in at the ticket counter on your day of travel to process the transaction.

This could lead to some very nasty last-minute surprises. :(

For AZ etickets, the original ticket-related PNR locator prints out on the ticket receipt even when there is a new AZ PNR locator being used for confirmed travel using the original AZ eticket. (This is despite the older PNR locator going stale.) Is it the same way with AZ paper ticket receipts?I am afraid that I am a bit lost with the terminology you have used :confused: ... In any case, the PNR locator that is printed on those AZ paper tickets is normally the TA's GDS system PNR locator, not the AZ locator. You would need to contact the TA to get AZ's PNR locator...

This could lead to some very nasty last-minute surprises. :(

Under no circumstances should one wait until the day of departure to settle any problems with these tickets - that's only inviting further drama from Alitalia. If a reticketing is necessary, it should ideally be performed well in advance of departure, and in person at a ticket counter or CTO.

The logistics of getting new paper tickets is something that I'm curious about too.



Anyone?

To clear up a few points based on information I've received:

1. New paper tix. - Orbitz informed me that since it's an airline schedule change, you'll get new paper tix. directly from AZ at the airport in YYZ when you check-in for your flight. So, your original paper tix. remain "valid" for now.

2. If you still have an AA/AC/DL flight on your new itin., just give it 24 hours or so and it will cancel. AZ has cancelled the flights, but an AA rep. I spoke with advised that it will take awhile to update in the AA/Orbitz system since they are "completely different" from the one that AZ uses.

3. For those wondering why MXP-FCO (or vice versa) is in Y instead of J - an AZ rep. informed me this is because these domestic flights are handled by one-class aircraft, so everybody is in Y on these 1-hour flights.

So if they aren't allowing you to fly on other carrier and such who's paying for my hotel room in MXP that night? More than that how are we getting back in time for work since now we are getting back a day late.


Should we try the BBB?

To clear up a few points based on information I've received:

1. New paper tix. - Orbitz informed me that since it's an airline schedule change, you'll get new paper tix. directly from AZ at the airport in YYZ when you check-in for your flight. So, your original paper tix. remain "valid" for now.

2. If you still have an AA/AC/DL flight on your new itin., just give it 24 hours or so and it will cancel. AZ has cancelled the flights, but an AA rep. I spoke with advised that it will take awhile to update in the AA/Orbitz system since they are "completely different" from the one that AZ uses.

3. For those wondering why MXP-FCO (or vice versa) is in Y instead of J - an AZ rep. informed me this is because these domestic flights are handled by one-class aircraft, so everybody is in Y on these 1-hour flights.

No doubt they told you this, but:

1) "since it's an airline schedule change" No, its not a schedule change, no matter how many times they repeat that lie.

2) This is more incorrect information. My rez was changed by AZ at least five days ago and my orphaned AA segment still shows on AA.com. I was even able to change my seat assignments yesterday!

No doubt they told you this, but:

1) "since it's an airline schedule change" No, its not a schedule change, no matter how many time they repeat that lie.

2) This is more incorrect information. My rez was changed by AZ at least five days ago and my orphaned AA segment still shows on AA.com. I was even able to change my seat assignments yesterday!

1. Well, it's being treated by the airline and Orbitz as an "airline schedule change" (both used this terminology with me), so they appear to allow you to exchange your paper tix. on the day of travel which is fine with me (and if they don't want to exchange them that day for some reason, they can put me on the original flights through NYC which match the paper tix. I now have!). I don't really care what language they use, and for all intents and purposes, it resembles a schedule change since I am still flying, but just on different flights, and direct from YYZ instead of through NYC. So, it IS a change to MY schedule, even if the original flights still exist.

2. Well, sure enough, after being told this, my non-AZ flights from YYZ-NYC-YYZ did, in fact, disappear, and the non-AZ record locators disappeared from Orbitz. Additionally, when I typed it in at aa.com, it now shows as "cancelled," where it previously showed as "ticketed." Obviously, this hasn't been the case for all.

I am afraid that I am a bit lost with the terminology you have used :confused: ... In any case, the PNR locator that is printed on those AZ paper tickets is normally the TA's GDS system PNR locator, not the AZ locator. You would need to contact the TA to get AZ's PNR locator...

You gave me the answer I was looking for here. Thanks. :)

I was just tooling around and looked up Alitalia on the NY BBB site. The results (http://www.newyork.bbb.org/reports/businessreports.aspx?id=3977&pid=44&page=0&FindStr=alitalia&SearchBy=company&Address=&City=&Phone1=&Phone2=&Phone3=&MembersOnly=False) are not too surprising.

1. Well, it's being treated by the airline and Orbitz as an "airline schedule change" (both used this terminology with me), so they appear to allow you to exchange your paper tix. on the day of travel which is fine with me (and if they don't want to exchange them that day for some reason, they can put me on the original flights through NYC which match the paper tix. I now have!). I don't really care what language they use, and for all intents and purposes, it resembles a schedule change since I am still flying, but just on different flights, and direct from YYZ instead of through NYC. So, it IS a change to MY schedule, even if the original flights still exist.

2. Well, sure enough, after being told this, my non-AZ flights from YYZ-NYC-YYZ did, in fact, disappear, and the non-AZ record locators disappeared from Orbitz. Additionally, when I typed it in at aa.com, it now shows as "cancelled," where it previously showed as "ticketed." Obviously, this hasn't been the case for all.

Good for you on #2, but, based on my experience, people shouldn't count on it.

On #1, AFAIK, the term schedule change does not mean they changed your schedule. It means they needed to change your flights because an airline schedule change forced them to. For example, a time change makes your connection too short. Of course, none of this affects whether or not you should trust tham and show up at YYZ with your original paper tickets in hand.

1. Well, it's being treated by the airline and Orbitz as an "airline schedule change" (both used this terminology with me), so they appear to allow you to exchange your paper tix. on the day of travel which is fine with me (and if they don't want to exchange them that day for some reason, they can put me on the original flights through NYC which match the paper tix. I now have!). I don't really care what language they use, and for all intents and purposes, it resembles a schedule change since I am still flying, but just on different flights, and direct from YYZ instead of through NYC. So, it IS a change to MY schedule, even if the original flights still exist.

2. Well, sure enough, after being told this, my non-AZ flights from YYZ-NYC-YYZ did, in fact, disappear, and the non-AZ record locators disappeared from Orbitz. Additionally, when I typed it in at aa.com, it now shows as "cancelled," where it previously showed as "ticketed." Obviously, this hasn't been the case for all.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Wouldn't an airline/flight schedule change affect all passengers scheduled on the same given flight? That doesn't seem to be what is happening here. What is happening is that the passengers ticketed with the DRTCA9 fare sold on April 5th are being singled out for extraordinarily bizarre changes that appear to be an airline attempt to reneg on tickets that were earlier announced as being honored even while other passengers on those very flights are not having their bookings affected.

I was just tooling around and looked up Alitalia on the NY BBB site. The results (http://www.newyork.bbb.org/reports/businessreports.aspx?id=3977&pid=44&page=0&FindStr=alitalia&SearchBy=company&Address=&City=&Phone1=&Phone2=&Phone3=&MembersOnly=False) are not too surprising.

They are going to have more complaints about "contract issues" and "selling practices" and "delivery issues" .... unless they get their act together sooner than later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alitalia Thought this was interesting.

We should dispute AZ credit card charges ... after we fly :)
After flying the first segment, I could go to the AZ desk in MXP and ask if I can get a stopover on my way back, if they say no, when I come home I can dispute cc charge with Amex and fax them a copy of the original fare rules saying stopovers are permitted. If everybody does that it will cost AZ another $100,000. How would they like that? :eek:

I booked my flights through CT, and on CT it now says I leave MXP 2 days earlier (eliminating my stop over) but on viewtrip.com it shows both my orginal mxp-yyz flight, and also the new one leaving a few days earlier. both confirmed. Is viewtrip.com a direct access to AZ? In other words, does what show up there, also show up in AZ's system?

We should dispute AZ credit card charges ... after we fly :)
After flying the first segment, I could go to the AZ desk in MXP and ask if I can get a stopover on my way back, if they say no, when I come home I can dispute cc charge with Amex and fax them a copy of the original fare rules saying stopovers are permitted. If everybody does that it will cost AZ another $100,000. How would they like that? :eek:

I like the idea, but most of us would be way beyond the 60 day dispute window by then.

I booked my flights through CT, and on CT it now says I leave MXP 2 days earlier (eliminating my stop over) but on viewtrip.com it shows both my orginal mxp-yyz flight, and also the new one leaving a few days earlier. both confirmed. Is viewtrip.com a direct access to AZ? In other words, does what show up there, also show up in AZ's system?
no

I booked my flights through CT, and on CT it now says I leave MXP 2 days earlier (eliminating my stop over) but on viewtrip.com it shows both my orginal mxp-yyz flight, and also the new one leaving a few days earlier. both confirmed. Is viewtrip.com a direct access to AZ? In other words, does what show up there, also show up in AZ's system?

No. See this post by KVS (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5653935&postcount=4787)

I booked my flights through CT, and on CT it now says I leave MXP 2 days earlier (eliminating my stop over) but on viewtrip.com it shows both my orginal mxp-yyz flight, and also the new one leaving a few days earlier. both confirmed. Is viewtrip.com a direct access to AZ? In other words, does what show up there, also show up in AZ's system?

That which shows up on AZ's system is most meaningful/current. The only way to reliably find out what AZ has on its systems is to call up AZ (or better yet get AZ reps at an ATO print out your itinerary).

If I had to do this all over again, I would have gone to the AZ ATO right away after getting ticket numbers and had them print out my confirmed itinerary with the OK's on there.

No. See this post by KVS (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5653935&postcount=4787)
Yeah saw that, I thought that the PNR that you give to viewtrip.com was the one in the AZ system.

So is the only to establish how AZ has me booked in their system is by calling AZ? If so, which AZ office are people having most sucess with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alitalia Thought this was interesting.

Funny, the Italian-language Wikipedia site http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alitalia seems to say something similar. :D ^

For those of us on the FCO-LCA "Swim Team," does this schedule-change terminoligy they're bandying about mean that Alitalia means to strand many of us at one location via open-jaw, with no way of getting to/from LCA other than buying a one-way ticket from another airline. That, in my book, is not a schedule change...but fraud.

I think under the wiki english page a direct link to the BBB NY office should be posted. its factual.

someon should really forward the Wikipedia page to Alitalia management. I'm sure they will love it. :D

Check out wikipedia pages for other carriers. They don't have nearly the same amount of negative comments as Alitalia.

and ^ to the alitaliasucks.com creator.

someon should really forward the Wikipedia page to Alitalia management. I'm sure they will love it. :D

Check out wikipedia pages for other carriers. They don't have nearly the same amount of negative comments as Alitalia.

and ^ to the alitaliasucks.com creator.

hmmm and use that huge list of emails i put together!
if someone was gonna do that, use proxy, and spam email :)
such as:
http://www.mytrashmail.com/anonymous_email.aspx
http://www.sharpmail.co.uk/
http://www.advicebox.com/

For those of us on the FCO-LCA "Swim Team," does this schedule-change terminoligy they're bandying about mean that Alitalia means to strand many of us at one location via open-jaw, with no way of getting to/from LCA other than buying a one-way ticket from another airline. That, in my book, is not a schedule change...but fraud.
btw if one of your flights (for example LCA-FCO) does not show on Orbitz or other site, it doesn't mean they removed it, it means you are on the "waiting list" for this flight. AZ is saying "we'll wait and see if it clears", whatever that means.

Read some of the stories at http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/alit.htm and wonder, if the FA treat standard fare customers like this, what is in store for the $33 crowd? :eek:

Now that I was put on the swim team I did some research on the missing(waitlist) segment (LCA-FCO). AZ has availablity in coach for that flight for which I'm "waitlisted" and actually my original reservation for this flight was in the economy class, but they did not just reinstate it this way, they put me on the waitlist for the business class which has no availability.

Cyprus Airways DO have business class availability for the same flight. What should happen now, is waitlisted segment going to clear, because there are actually business class seats available it's just that AZ should buy them from CY, I have no idea how it works. But it seems that AZ is insisting on losing more money, because I asked them to just change my return segement for the dates when they have availability and change LCA-FCO-MXP routing to LCA-MXP and it would be cheaper for them to do that than insist on the original routing and they actually did that (changed my dates and routing) but reverted those changes yesterday.

Well since i have nothing better to do should I go ahead and file a complaint or should I wait?

Well since i have nothing better to do should I go ahead and file a complaint or should I wait?

I suggest filing - I did a mass email to the AZ execs, Orbitz execs and the US/EU regulatory agencies earlier today. No responses yet, but it was at least mentally relaxing.

I suggest filing - I did a mass email to the AZ execs, Orbitz execs and the US/EU regulatory agencies earlier today. No responses yet, but it was at least mentally relaxing.

We should do a coordinated mass e-mailing. Send individual letters, but send them all at the same time....

Read some of the stories at http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/alit.htm and wonder, if the FA treat standard fare customers like this, what is in store for the $33 crowd? :eek:

wow, I knew many airlines were going downhill with service, but seems like even business class too. regardless, I'm still going. I don't need the amenity kit or 5-course meal, I just want the legroom :cool:

Read some of the stories at http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/alit.htm and wonder, if the FA treat standard fare customers like this, what is in store for the $33 crowd? :eek:

After reading all of this, do we even really want to go? :)

wow, I knew many airlines were going downhill with service, but seems like even business class too. regardless, I'm still going. I don't need the amenity kit or 5-course meal, I just want the legroom :cool:
Same-same.

I think, however, that I'll be skipping the meal service. Like a cop in a whataburger after midnight, you may be taking your chances biting into the sandwich. :p

Read some of the stories at http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/alit.htm and wonder, if the FA treat standard fare customers like this, what is in store for the $33 crowd? :eek:Some of the reviews are REALLY funny! I especially like the one quote: "Alitalia has to collapse and start again!"

So is everyone started or going to be starting the email campain?

So is everyone started or going to be starting the email campain?

I'll be starting soon. Do we need a time/day?

I posted this a few pages (many pages?) ago: Am I the only one who received a second set of tickets for the changed itinerary from Travelocity? Why have they never bothered to ask for the original tickets back?

Well everyone keeps saying do it all at the same time. So I was just wondering.

Well everyone keeps saying do it all at the same time. So I was just wondering.

How about Thursday night, 9pm eastern. Prime time. It will give AZ and everyone else Friday to read the e-mails, and then the whole weekend to feel bad about how poorly we've been treated. ;)

How about Thursday night, 9pm eastern. Prime time. It will give AZ and everyone else Friday to read the e-mails, and then the whole weekend to feel bad about how poorly we've been treated. ;)

Thursday at 9 works for me too - I'll simply send something a bit more "sharper" than last time. ;)

How about Thursday night, 9pm eastern. Prime time. It will give AZ and everyone else Friday to read the e-mails, and then the whole weekend to feel bad about how poorly we've been treated. ;)

How about 9pm EST on SUNDAY. That way when they get it Monday morning they will be able to actually DO something about it over the workweek instead of FORGETTING about it over the weekend.

How about 9pm EST on SUNDAY. That way when they get it Monday morning they will be able to actually DO something about it over the workweek instead of FORGETTING about it over the weekend.

Only problem is that I believe the Italians have a national holiday on this coming Monday or Tuesday.

I posted this a few pages (many pages?) ago: Am I the only one who received a second set of tickets for the changed itinerary from Travelocity? Why have they never bothered to ask for the original tickets back?


Are your two ticket numbers the same?

Only problem is that I believe the Italians have a national holiday on this coming Monday or Tuesday.

News sources are more likely to miss things that happen on Thursday nights or on a Friday night. Better to hit on a Tuesday night. :D

Are your two ticket numbers the same?

No. Different ticket numbers. Different dates. But same PNR. Travelocity tried calling, I ignored them, and they emailed me a new Fedex tracking number, and sent new tickets. No new charges on my CC, though.

No. Different ticket numbers. Different dates. But same PNR. Travelocity tried calling, I ignored them, and they emailed me a new Fedex tracking number, and sent new tickets. No new charges on my CC, though.

Did you look at the ticket receipt of the new ticket to see if the old ticket number -- or even some other number that looks like a ticket number -- shows up there, which may indicate a ticket exchange?

How about 9pm EST on SUNDAY. That way when they get it Monday morning they will be able to actually DO something about it over the workweek instead of FORGETTING about it over the weekend.

How about BOTH Thursday 9pm and Sunday 9pm. A little reminder never hurts!

Did you look at the ticket receipt of the new ticket to see if the old ticket number -- or even some other number that looks like a ticket number -- shows up there, which may indicate a ticket exchange?

The tickets do not appear to be linked to each other at all. The second ticket has the new dates, and it reads BUSINESS CLASS RESTRICTED - NONEND NONREF NONREROUTABLE. Both have my CC number imprinted as form of payment.

Only problem is that I believe the Italians have a national holiday on this coming Monday or Tuesday.

It actually is. I doubt they will be at work on monday.Long week-end for eveybody, it's called "ponte"=bridge!walking on it from Friday to Tue!not bad :D

And I'm sorry to tell you that the following monday is again vacation, Labor Day on May 1. We were not lucky to get this deal during Easter and national holidays. Tue 25 is the "Liberation"

June 2, a friday is again holiday...let's just hope they fix it before then. :eek:

The tickets do not appear to be linked to each other at all. The second ticket has the new dates, and it reads BUSINESS CLASS RESTRICTED - NONEND NONREF NONREROUTABLE. Both have my CC number imprinted as form of payment.

It's an end-run scam effort by AZ to "legally" impose the new rules.

btw if one of your flights (for example LCA-FCO) does not show on Orbitz or other site, it doesn't mean they removed it, it means you are on the "waiting list" for this flight. AZ is saying "we'll wait and see if it clears", whatever that means.

Wait and see if it clears??? Under what circumstances would it clear? When an AZ customer cancels one of the AZ business class seats on the flight to/from LCA?? :eek: Is that as remote a chance as it seems ?

It actually is. I doubt they will be at work on monday.Long week-end for eveybody, it's called "ponte"=bridge!walking on it from Friday to Tue!not bad :D

And I'm sorry to tell you that the following monday is again vacation, Labor Day on May 1. We were not lucky to get this deal during Easter and national holidays. Tue 25 is the "Liberation"

June 2, a friday is again holiday...let's just hope they fix it before then. :eek:

So let's try for Thurs. 9pm eastern so everyone except AZ will read it (media, etc.) and then again on Monday night 9pm eastern so AZ has lots of fun to come back to (hopefully the media will have tried contacting them too).

I filed a complaint with the BBB and with the Canadian Transport Agency

It's an end-run scam effort by AZ to "legally" impose the new rules.

Yes, possibly. But I now hold two sets of paper tickets. Wouldn't their scam effort require them to get the original ticket back?

Yes, possibly. But I now hold two sets of paper tickets. Wouldn't their scam effort require them to get the original ticket back?

Not necessarily - the old coupons can be voided for further usage electronically if need be.

So is everyone started or going to be starting the email campain?


Could anyone provide us with the latest version of the mail that we are going to send out and the e-mail addresses?

So is everyone started or going to be starting the email campain?

I already have, and I started with USAToday. The travel writer seems very interested in these turn of events.

Just spoke with Amanda, an Orbitz Supervisor in North Dakota. She called me, as promised by an Orbitz agent last night.

She once again confirmed that Orbitz is 'making arrangements' with AZ to 'reinstate the original itineraries' with the 'original fare rules', but that things with AZ 'are still in progress' with 'no firm timetable yet'.

I asked Amanda to send me an email from Orbitz summarizing this information, so that we could all have a SINGLE source document to use as we pursue resolution to this issue. She said she would send me the requested email. I'll post upon receipt.

I also asked her if Orbitz was planning a mass email to advise us all on the AZ YYZ-LCA situation in general, and she said that would have to 'happen at another level of the company'. So, looks like we all still have to wildcat as individuals for the time being!


Very disappointed..still no email.

Sort of -- I have spoken to a very competent senior supervisor at TCY's headquarters, and sent them a copy of the original fare rules. So it is now a fact that AZ has withdrawn the fare, and also backdated the changes in the historical fare rules...

I also have written confirmation that TCY will honour the original fare rules (i.e. return segments can be changed, without a reprice), as per the copy of the fare rules I have sent them (regardless of what AZ says), which is good enough for me...

Very encouraging to hear. Will you post or email us that written documentation???

Originally Posted by KVS
Sort of -- I have spoken to a very competent senior supervisor at TCY's headquarters, and sent them a copy of the original fare rules. So it is now a fact that AZ has withdrawn the fare, and also backdated the changes in the historical fare rules...

I also have written confirmation that TCY will honour the original fare rules (i.e. return segments can be changed, without a reprice), as per the copy of the fare rules I have sent them (regardless of what AZ says), which is good enough for me...


Very encouraging to hear. Will you post or email us that written documentation???

This is also what I was told, at least about the rule change, by a senior supe. at the Canadian branch of TCY. He tried to do a historical look-up for about 10-15 minutes before concluding that AZ backdated the changes of the original rules. Such BS!!! But at least my rez isn't until Sept. I feel bad for those who are leaving in May. TCY is definitely being the most honest TA here. Getting nothing but BS from CT. Didn't book through Orbitz, so I can't comment.

If someone has the original fare rules and the new rules, I could use them. I did download them but for some reason it all formatted in one long column that is virtually un-readable.

Thanks!

CF

Original fare rules here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5612681&postcount=3602

If someone has the original fare rules and the new rules, I could use them. I did download them but for some reason it all formatted in one long column that is virtually un-readable.

Thanks!

CF


Original fare rules from which Travel Agent?

Orbitz, CheapTickets or Travelocity?

2 'reinstated' itins.....

Sep 4 YYZ-MXP
Sep 5 MXP-LCA
Sep 5 EWR-YYZ
Sep 20 MXP-YYZ

* no LCA-MXP or FCO
* all flights in J

Oct 21 YYZ-MXP
Oct 22 MXP-FCO-LCA
Oct 22 EWR-YYZ
Oct 26 MXP-YYZ

* no LCA-MXP- or FCO
* all flights in J


Things are progressing quite 'swimmingly'

3 Orbitz and 3 CT itins still in 'purgatory'

Original fare rules from which Travel Agent?

Orbitz, CheapTickets or Travelocity?

It would be Cheaptickets.

Thanks for catching that... little late out here on the left coast.

CF

It would be Cheaptickets.


YGP'E'M

2 Cheap Tickets 'reinstated'

Ticket 1
Oct 20 YYZ-MXP
Oct 21 MXP-LCA
Oct 21 YYZ-BOS
Oct 21 BOS-FCO
Oct 22 FCO-MXP
Oct 22 MXP-LCA
Oct 22 MXP-YYZ

* no LCA-MXP or FCO (minor swimming!!)
* all flights in J

Ticket 2
Oct 27 MXP-LCA
Oct 30 LCA-MXP
Oct 31 MXP-YYZ

* no flights YYZ-MXP (major swimming!!!))
* all flights in J

These are the rules I saved when making my Travelocity reservation:



Very important, please can someone send me the original fare rules from Cheaptickets.com as a pdf file?

I went to the Alitalia office today and they refused to change as they claim not to have the fare rules.



If anyone needs the original rules from Orbitz.com, please send me a PM and I will mail you the pdf file.

PM me your email address.

It would be nice if Orbitz had some few lines of code that would send you an email when your Orbitz-ticketed itineraries get yanked around after the sale is complete and the money (such as it is) is safely in the vendor's bank account.Indeed so. That would not exactly seem like a programming version of rocket surgery -- indeed, you'd think it would be a requirement.

But I am philosophical about all this. Gift horse mouths and all that.A lone voice of reason, and surely the best way to enjoy all of this.


And BTW to those who are waving around "rules": Let's suppose that AZ doesn't follow the rules. What are your options?:

Complain to whoever will listen. My guess is that this will be an extremely short list. You can be certain that the overwhelming majority of AZ's customers are Italian citizens/residents, so bad publicity in N America is, as history has surely shown, not a particularly big concern to the company.

Legal action. In the US, most lower-level courts (and especially small claims courts) are interested in doling out equitable solutions. If you paid $33 for a product and didn't get that product, the court is likely to find in your favor and demand that the seller return your $33.

Not sure I can see any other feasible recourse.

You can be certain that the overwhelming majority of AZ's customers are Italian citizens/residents,

Not on some flights/routes, where at most they would be but a plurality (if even that).

Legal action. In the US, most lower-level courts (and especially small claims courts) are interested in doling out equitable solutions. If you paid $33 for a product and didn't get that product, the court is likely to find in your favor and demand that the seller return your $33.

Out of curiosity, through which travel agency did you purchase AZ YYZ-LCA tickets?

None of these tickets cost less than $170. So that's the least. And since most people are flying to YYZ to fly on these, there is the concept of detrimental reliance which most lower-level courts (including small claims courts) will recognize if real costs can be demonstrated -- which is not too hard in this case. But it's not going to come to this for most all of us.

.... and plenty of airlines are more sensitive to bad press in a market where they are not the dominant carrier than in their own backyard. This holds true of domestic US carriers that take negative hometown coverage as a given after a while. And outside the home market -- overseas included here -- I've seen more than one airline jump through hoops not to get their name mentioned in a negative way after an incident or two has happened. Country managers for airlines do court people from the host country's media for a reason. ;)

Unfortunately, I don't think lawsuits filed in the US will do anything but further AZ's stance about refunds. Most small claims judges in the US would consider AZ's offer to refund as a sufficient option in this matter if the customer is unhappy with the product.

However, I am a firm believer in using media when necessary. Companies fear negative media exposure and will do anything to ensure they keep their names out of the paper. If Ben Mutzabaugh from USAToday (Today in the Sky) is interested in this (which I believe he is according to a previous poster) that may help us in getting some of the answers we need.

Frankly if I am to be convinced that Alitalia is sensitive to media portrayals, I'll need more evidence than that cited in these postings.

Of greater (but still pretty low-level) interest to me is the exposure of Orbitz et al. The law of agency being what it is, I'm not sure if Orbitz's liability is as limited as their boilerplate says it is. They brokered a contract which was consummated; they formed the interface between buyer and service provider - in essence they were resellers of the product. The "product" was the airline tickets and appurtenant rules. On Orbitz's T&Cs it says I have the right to review all the applicable rules before the sale, and that I can obtain a printed copy of the "filed" (with US and Canadian governments I assume, since my travel involves passage through the US) tarriffs and conditions by going to any sales point where the airline tickets are sold.

Of course it doesn't say what happens when the rules provided to me by Orbitz are altered post-sale, so I assume their position is that it reverts back to the general language regarding their limitation of liability for acts of others.

But if they know the rules have changed and don't tell me, then I don't know that they're off the hook on complicity in an illegal (not criminal, probably civil) act. The term of art is "bait and switch."

What I do know is that Orbitz and Cendant, like all travel agents, undoubtedly carry a honkin' big errors and omissions insurance policy. The standard in E and O cases is that the haddee goes after the E & O-carrying company, the insurance folk step in and see what's up, then they go after any parties whose actions (defects, etc.) precipitated the issue, in this case breech of contract. The ensuing dance of the lawyers can and often does entail a lot more expense and executive distraction than the monetary value of the breech itself.

As for what a court might do, I think the relief they'd grant and that we would request would be specific performance, i.e., follow the rules, rather than any monetary settlement. That would be the easiest thing for the judge to order, since Alitalia's actions here are so patently illegal.

The above implies that I give much more of a hoot about all this than I actually do.

After reading all of this, do we even really want to go? :)

Those reviews are downright shocking. I think a safe bet would be to bring your own water, IFE, food (or eat before you get on) in case the choices are horrible, and bucket of hand sanitizer in case the J lavs are unsanitary.

Canadian Transportion Agency
http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/cta-otc2000/menu_e.html

Everyone should go and fill out the form here as well. I'm sure someone has already said this, but it's worth saying again.

As for what a court might do, I think the relief they'd grant and that we would request would be specific performance, i.e., follow the rules, rather than any monetary settlement. That would be the easiest thing for the judge to order, since Alitalia's actions here are so patently illegal.


I thought the same thing. I don't see any reason a refund is the sole option. hopefully it won't have to come to that.....

Y is the only service provided on domestic AZ flight, even though sometimes you might find yourself in one of those a/cs with the "Prima"(pretty much like US domestic first) seats...As your Y would be full fare, you can get in one of those seats.But I doubt you'll be able to know before checking-in as change of a/c happen often.Most likely it will be an all Y configured plane.You can live with that for less than a hour :p

My itinerary shows business from FCO to MXP.

Of greater (but still pretty low-level) interest to me is the exposure of Orbitz et al.
...
As for what a court might do, I think the relief they'd grant and that we would request would be specific performance, i.e., follow the rules, rather than any monetary settlement. That would be the easiest thing for the judge to order, since Alitalia's actions here are so patently illegal.
Agree completely that the various agent entities have more exposure issues than Alitalia, both in terms of litigation and reputation/publicity.

As for the relief granted, specific performance makes sense in theory. In many jurisdictions, however, that type of relief is available only in certain courts (e.g., Superior and not small claims). Also, specific performance can create an issue in terms of time: if time is of the essence, an adjucation in 2008 can't very well order Alitalia to take you from Toronto to Larnaca on July 17, 2006.


p.s. to gee yoo one duh: I have neither a horse in the race nor a reservation, cancelled or otherwise, on Alitalia. Please let me know if that makes me ineligible to participate in this thread.

Canadian Transportion Agency
http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/cta-otc2000/menu_e.html

Everyone should go and fill out the form here as well. I'm sure someone has already said this, but it's worth saying again.

Done.

Just spoke to travelocity.ca and they are working on the changes that were made by AZ, and are fighting for us, as they say they (AZ) cannot change the dates and rules from what was purchased.

I am sure there are not as many reservations made via travelocity.ca as Orbitz, so will they (AZ) give in early to tcy.ca... :confused:

Canadian Transportion Agency
http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/cta-otc2000/menu_e.html

Everyone should go and fill out the form here as well. I'm sure someone has already said this, but it's worth saying again.

Done :)

Done :)


Ditto - but a follow-up call to the CTA advsied that it could take MONTHS before the matter is reviewed!

http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/cta-otc2000/menu_e.html


what if we all demanded Explanation, Apology, and Policy Change :)
or perhaps a reduction of airfare?

tis ok, have 10 months before my flight :p

any response to the super email to orbitz and media outlets?

I had AZ call me 3x in the last 1/2 hr about 4 of my 6 travelocity.ca tickets. Told me it was a mistake but they were going to honour it but some things (rules?) had changed. They were trying to get me to consider a refund citing overnight stopovers in MXP, had to be used in sequence, etc. I told the rep fully intended to fly all flights as ticketed (no stops > 24 hrs in Italy). Should have offered them to cancel the 2 back-to-back tickets IF they would give me the YYZ-MXP-YYZ miles to my FD account.

I had AZ call me 3x in the last 1/2 hr about 4 of my 6 travelocity.ca tickets. Told me it was a mistake but they were going to honour it but some things (rules?) had changed. They were trying to get me to consider a refund citing overnight stopovers in MXP, had to be used in sequence, etc. I told the rep fully intended to fly all flights as ticketed (no stops > 24 hrs in Italy). Should have offered them to cancel the 2 back-to-back tickets IF they would give me the YYZ-MXP-YYZ miles to my FD account.

All the more support for the proposition that AZ reinstated the itins to eliminate stopovers and create swim team issues solely to get people to refund the itins.

All the more support for the proposition that AZ reinstated the itins to eliminate stopovers and create swim team issues solely to get people to refund the itins.

they are evil! :mad:

I had AZ call me 3x in the last 1/2 hr about 4 of my 6 travelocity.ca tickets. Told me it was a mistake but they were going to honour it but some things (rules?) had changed. They were trying to get me to consider a refund citing overnight stopovers in MXP, had to be used in sequence, etc. I told the rep fully intended to fly all flights as ticketed (no stops > 24 hrs in Italy). Should have offered them to cancel the 2 back-to-back tickets IF they would give me the YYZ-MXP-YYZ miles to my FD account.

Be careful in consenting to any rule changes! In fact, if Alitalia calls, you should explicitly state that you do not agree to any rule changes and want your itinerary as ticketed.

Do the BBB of NY too. I did that last night.

http://www.newyork.bbb.org/

almost have half a mind to stick it to them by using my ENTIRE luggage alltoment by stuffing bricks into a spare piece of luggage.Well, it looks like someone had already used your idea, in a slightly-modified form :D:

http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_109195348.html
Apr 19, 2006 10:44 pm US/Eastern

"the man came in on an Alitalia flight from Milan, Italy shortly after 3pm. Upon passing through the customs checkpoint, a beagle alerted agents to something inside his bag. Inside, they found the remains of dead birds."

Ditto - but a follow-up call to the CTA advsied that it could take MONTHS before the matter is reviewed!

months?
I have an oustanding complaint filed with CTA from 2002...

The BBB is 30 days. Can't hurt.

Canadian Transportion Agency
http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/cta-otc2000/menu_e.html

Everyone should go and fill out the form here as well. I'm sure someone has already said this, but it's worth saying again.

I just did.
We will see what happens

Well, it looks like someone had already used your idea, in a slightly-modified form :D:

http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_109195348.html
Apr 19, 2006 10:44 pm US/Eastern

"the man came in on an Alitalia flight from Milan, Italy shortly after 3pm. Upon passing through the customs checkpoint, a beagle alerted agents to something inside his bag. Inside, they found the remains of dead birds."
Actually the point of my post to add bricks is so that the plane is carrying around more weight thus the need for fuel.

Someone responded to my email blast asking more questions. We'll see how it goes. Will keep everyone posted.

No response to my email blast but an email from CT asking me to call them to sort things out.

When I call AZ's office in NYC, who is the appropriate person to try and speak with?

Actually the point of my post to add bricks is so that the plane is carrying around more weight thus the need for fuel.I know... :)

Be careful in consenting to any rule changes! In fact, if Alitalia calls, you should explicitly state that you do not agree to any rule changes and want your itinerary as ticketed.


All the more support for the proposition that AZ reinstated the itins to eliminate stopovers and create swim team issues solely to get people to refund the itins.

My original itineraries didn't have any stopovers so they're not changing mine AFAIK. Just trying to get me not to fly!

The rep even had the gall to suggest flying 2 trips back to back was ardous!

My email to the BBB:

On 5 April 2006, I purchased a roundtrip Business Class ticket from Toronto, Canada to Larnaca, Cyprus on Alitalia via Orbitz, a US-based travel agency. The fare basis of the ticket (Alitalia fare basis DRTCA9), which contains the terms and conditions of travel, is unrestricted - unlimited date changes and stopovers without additional charge are permitted.

A day after buying this ticket (and apparently, Alitalia sold approximately 509 of these tickets within a 12-hour period), Alitalia cancelled the flights in my booking (and of all 509 tickets sold) without notice either to myself or Orbitz, and stated that it would not honor the issued tickets. Alitalia subsequently reversed its position, with statements in national and global media outlets affirming that the tickets would be honored in full. These statements can be seen at the following websites: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/12042006/3/pei-airline-error-favour-collect-cyprus-tickets.html and http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/06042006/2/koddities-online-travel-agencies-accidentally-post-cyprus-flight-40.html.

However, Alitalia's commitment to honoring the booking in full is deceptive. Upon reinstating the cancelled itineraries, Alitalia has arbitraily changed the fare rules - the terms of fare basis DRTCA9 have been radically changed (with language prohibiting changes, stopovers, and the like) post-ticket purchase, which I understand may be in violation of US consumer protection laws, and certainly does not comport with Alitalia's promise that the tickets (to include the ticket's fare basis rules) would be as valid as any other. Orbitz has confirmed the practice by Alitalia, but is itself powerless to do anything beyond raising the issue. My personal efforts to revole the problem have proven futile, because apparently no one in Alitalia Reservations or Customer Care is empowered to handle this booking issue.

I want Alitalia to acknowledge its deceptive practices with repsect to this and similar tickets, restore the original fare rules and honor them (along with the tickets) in full, and provide a tangible expression of concern to underscore the magnitude of the airline's breach of its contractual obligations and customer expectations.

Right on the mark. Nice job.

Am I the only one that is not having a problem here? I booked YYZ-MXP-FCO-LCA-MXP-YYZ. Never cancelled - no problems. I called to have them update my seating and add FF# and everyone was polite and courteous.

I must be lucky.

My original itineraries didn't have any stopovers so they're not changing mine AFAIK. Just trying to get me not to fly!

The rep even had the gall to suggest flying 2 trips back to back was ardous!

Let's assume for a moment that the "easiest" and "least objectionable" tickets for AZ to reinstate would be those like yours that had no stopovers and would be fine even under the adulterated fare rules (without getting into date changes, etc.). These types of tickets were cancelled anyway, along with all the others. Now they are being reinstated, along with all the others. From watching this thread, it seems like for tickets that were complicated by having US-YYZ-US segments and/or stopovers, AZ reinstated these to remove the stopovers and US-YYZ segments and force pax onto off-peak days of the week AND, often, create swim team issues. Now, for the "easy" tickets I described above that never had any "objectionable" characteristics even under the adulterated fare rules, AZ is still creating swim team issues. Are there any tickets at all that have been properly reinstated at this point? It doesn't seem like it, even though an "easy" ticket would have taken no effort to reinstate as originally booked. That can't be an accident . . .

Agree completely that the various agent entities have more exposure issues than Alitalia, both in terms of litigation and reputation/publicity.

As for the relief granted, specific performance makes sense in theory. In many jurisdictions, however, that type of relief is available only in certain courts (e.g., Superior and not small claims). Also, specific performance can create an issue in terms of time: if time is of the essence, an adjucation in 2008 can't very well order Alitalia to take you from Toronto to Larnaca on July 17, 2006.Which raises the question of where in addition to who. Orbitz's T&Cs state that venue for all disputes is Illinois. Where would Alitalia's be? One presumes Ontario, or possibly Italy? The Hague? Pluto? Which is why IMO the initial target (if there is to be one) ought to be the agents rather than the perps. And as for timing, you're absolutely right. Coulda woulda shoulda. Injunctive relief? Any lurking Chicago lawyers who know their way around the courthouse?

And as for class action, my limited experience with travel-related class actions is that they take forever to arrange and make for a big payday for lawyers months later, but we in the shmoe class get bupkis, slowly.
p.s. to gee yoo one duh: I have neither a horse in the race nor a reservation, cancelled or otherwise, on Alitalia. Please let me know if that makes me ineligible to participate in this thread. Sadly, no. You can only post on this thread if your world has been shattered by this once-in-a-lifetime trip (See Cyprus and Die) being snatched from your dreams by greedy airline executives whose class has been proven in all this to be anything but Magnifica.

Let's assume for a moment that the "easiest" and "least objectionable" tickets for AZ to reinstate would be those like yours that had no stopovers and would be fine even under the adulterated fare rules (without getting into date changes, etc.). These types of tickets were cancelled anyway, along with all the others. Now they are being reinstated, along with all the others. From watching this thread, it seems like for tickets that were complicated by having US-YYZ-US segments and/or stopovers, AZ reinstated these to remove the stopovers and US-YYZ segments and force pax onto off-peak days of the week AND, often, create swim team issues. Now, for the "easy" tickets I described above that never had any "objectionable" characteristics even under the adulterated fare rules, AZ is still creating swim team issues. Are there any tickets at all that have been properly reinstated at this point? It doesn't seem like it, even though an "easy" ticket would have taken no effort to reinstate as originally booked. That can't be an accident . . .

My ticket had a slight change to it (the AA portion was taken out JFK-YYZ). My new routing YYZ-MXP-LCA-MXP-YYZ with no swim team issues and all in Business Class. Then again, my travel dates are not until February 2007.

Just had a nice long convsersation with Orbitz customer service. The agent was convinced that the fare rules have not changed, but probably missed the few small changes that are quite significant:
-Tickets are now non-refundable
-Stopovers are not allowed

The main sticking point was the rule change from:
CHANGES ANY TIME CHANGES PERMITTED FOR REISSUE/REVALIDATION
to

CHANGES ANY TIME CHANGES NOT PERMITTED IN CASE OF REISSUE/REVALIDATION.

I want to make sure I understand this right- the wording change means that now we have to reprice the ticket to make changes, whereas the original fare rules allowed changes without repricing?

There isn't a BBB in Toronto. Weird.

Just had a nice long convsersation with Orbitz customer service. The agent was convinced that the fare rules have not changed, but probably missed the few small changes that are quite significant:
-Tickets are now non-refundable
-Stopovers are not allowed

The main sticking point was the rule change from:
CHANGES ANY TIME CHANGES PERMITTED FOR REISSUE/REVALIDATION
to

CHANGES ANY TIME CHANGES NOT PERMITTED IN CASE OF REISSUE/REVALIDATION.

I want to make sure I understand this right- the wording change means that now we have to reprice the ticket to make changes, whereas the original fare rules allowed changes without repricing?

The airline has also imposed a prohibition on stopovers, and -- according to tat least one FT poster -- may have inserted "NONREROUTABLE//NONCHANGEABLE" language somewhere as well.

Just had a nice long convsersation with Orbitz customer service. The agent was convinced that the fare rules have not changed, but probably missed the few small changes that are quite significant:
-Tickets are now non-refundable
-Stopovers are not allowed

The main sticking point was the rule change from:
CHANGES ANY TIME CHANGES PERMITTED FOR REISSUE/REVALIDATION
to

CHANGES ANY TIME CHANGES NOT PERMITTED IN CASE OF REISSUE/REVALIDATION.

I want to make sure I understand this right- the wording change means that now we have to reprice the ticket to make changes, whereas the original fare rules allowed changes without repricing?


Honestly, the way I have always understood it about the changes was after the outbound. Never was I in any capacity believing you could just up and change the whole part of your trip. What I always thought was after you have flown the outbound you can always change the return, or even make a stopover where a stopover never exisited. This is if your routing remained the same.

Am I the only one that is not having a problem here? I booked YYZ-MXP-FCO-LCA-MXP-YYZ. Never cancelled - no problems. I called to have them update my seating and add FF# and everyone was polite and courteous.

I must be lucky.

When did you last call AZ? If it wasn't in the last couple of days, it would probably be a good idea to call back and ask them to provide the date and flight details. They didn't mess with my rez until very recently.

My email to the BBB:

On 5 April 2006, I purchased a roundtrip Business Class ticket from Toronto, Canada to Larnaca, Cyprus on Alitalia via Orbitz, a US-based travel agency. The fare basis of the ticket (Alitalia fare basis DRTCA9), which contains the terms and conditions of travel, is unrestricted - unlimited date changes and stopovers without additional charge are permitted.

A day after buying this ticket (and apparently, Alitalia sold approximately 509 of these tickets within a 12-hour period), Alitalia cancelled the flights in my booking (and of all 509 tickets sold) without notice either to myself or Orbitz, and stated that it would not honor the issued tickets. Alitalia subsequently reversed its position, with statements in national and global media outlets affirming that the tickets would be honored in full. These statements can be seen at the following websites: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/12042006/3/pei-airline-error-favour-collect-cyprus-tickets.html and http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/06042006/2/koddities-online-travel-agencies-accidentally-post-cyprus-flight-40.html.

However, Alitalia's commitment to honoring the booking in full is deceptive. Upon reinstating the cancelled itineraries, Alitalia has arbitraily changed the fare rules - the terms of fare basis DRTCA9 have been radically changed (with language prohibiting changes, stopovers, and the like) post-ticket purchase, which I understand may be in violation of US consumer protection laws, and certainly does not comport with Alitalia's promise that the tickets (to include the ticket's fare basis rules) would be as valid as any other. Orbitz has confirmed the practice by Alitalia, but is itself powerless to do anything beyond raising the issue. My personal efforts to revole the problem have proven futile, because apparently no one in Alitalia Reservations or Customer Care is empowered to handle this booking issue.

I want Alitalia to acknowledge its deceptive practices with repsect to this and similar tickets, restore the original fare rules and honor them (along with the tickets) in full, and provide a tangible expression of concern to underscore the magnitude of the airline's breach of its contractual obligations and customer expectations.

The only thing I would add besides the above is that Alitalia has in some cases changed confirmed dates of departures to waitlisted segments on other dates. They also have eliminated confirmed stopovers thereby changing the length of stay - all this without any notification to the customer. When confronted, they suggest refunding the ticket as segments cannot be confirmed.

Dont know if any of this applied to you...

My email to the BBB:

On 5 April 2006, I purchased a roundtrip Business Class ticket from Toronto, Canada to Larnaca, Cyprus on Alitalia via Orbitz, a US-based travel agency. The fare basis of the ticket (Alitalia fare basis DRTCA9), which contains the terms and conditions of travel, is unrestricted - unlimited date changes and stopovers without additional charge are permitted.

A day after buying this ticket (and apparently, Alitalia sold approximately 509 of these tickets within a 12-hour period), Alitalia cancelled the flights in my booking (and of all 509 tickets sold) without notice either to myself or Orbitz, and stated that it would not honor the issued tickets. Alitalia subsequently reversed its position, with statements in national and global media outlets affirming that the tickets would be honored in full. These statements can be seen at the following websites: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/12042006/3/pei-airline-error-favour-collect-cyprus-tickets.html and http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/06042006/2/koddities-online-travel-agencies-accidentally-post-cyprus-flight-40.html.

However, Alitalia's commitment to honoring the booking in full is deceptive. Upon reinstating the cancelled itineraries, Alitalia has arbitraily changed the fare rules - the terms of fare basis DRTCA9 have been radically changed (with language prohibiting changes, stopovers, and the like) post-ticket purchase, which I understand may be in violation of US consumer protection laws, and certainly does not comport with Alitalia's promise that the tickets (to include the ticket's fare basis rules) would be as valid as any other. Orbitz has confirmed the practice by Alitalia, but is itself powerless to do anything beyond raising the issue. My personal efforts to revole the problem have proven futile, because apparently no one in Alitalia Reservations or Customer Care is empowered to handle this booking issue.

I want Alitalia to acknowledge its deceptive practices with repsect to this and similar tickets, restore the original fare rules and honor them (along with the tickets) in full, and provide a tangible expression of concern to underscore the magnitude of the airline's breach of its contractual obligations and customer expectations.

IMHO, if you were going to do this, you would have to mention the price, and account for that somehow. Otherwise, you run the risk of leaving a real dramatic "A-HA!" stone unturned, which could leave you looking bad.

I re-read the new (bad) fare rules, no 'NONREROUTABLE/NONCHANGEABLE' (also used search for 'non', nothing came up). The only thing is in that first line on penalties that says "CANCELLATIONS ANY TIME TICKET IS NON-REFUNDABLE. CHANGES ANY TIME CHANGES NOT PERMITTED IN CASE OF REISSUE/REVALIDATION."

The interesting thing is that right before that Orbitz has added in: "If this ticket is non-refundable, changes to this ticket will incur an airline change fee of up to $250 per ticket and an Orbitz exchange fee of $30 per ticket."

So technically, even with the new (bad) fare rules we shouldn't have to pay more than $280 to make a change.

UMGuy- My experience has always been you can make changes to everything except you first outbound segment. This includes changing the return date, adding stopovers, etc.. Of course this has been on on other airlines. Though I've never had to do a reprice to get changes (just in taxes because I've added stopovers).

I'm still confused about the relationship between making a change/the need to reissue the ticket/the need to reprice (considering new (bad) vs. original fare rules). The agent said AZ told Orbitz to reprice if changes are made, but I just don't know if that is what the fare rules are now saying (and if they didn't say them before). Any help KVS?

WOO HOO I already have a mediator assigned.

they are evil! :mad:

Maybe we should send our complaints to the White House and ask The Decider to go after these evil-doers! :)

WOO HOO I already have a mediator assigned.

With who the BBB or some other agency?

I am a little hesitant to call CT or Alitalia right now for fear that the will know that I know that they changed my flights.

My case is slightly different from some of yours… When I purchased my tickets, they were never cancelled and tickets were sent to me. I called CT regarding a question I had about a week ago and also Alitalia a couple of days ago to get seat assignments. Up to this point, nothing was changed and everything seemed fine. Therefore, having done my due diligence, I just wanna show up at the airport and act as if everything should be ok. If they deny me boarding, I want my 600 EUR (x 2 tickets) as per their IDB rules as they never informed of any change and I have confirmed tickets of my original flights… so I should reasonably expect to be on that flight!

Anyone else feeling the same way?

The interesting thing is that right before that Orbitz has added in: "If this ticket is non-refundable, changes to this ticket will incur an airline change fee of up to $250 per ticket and an Orbitz exchange fee of $30 per ticket."

So technically, even with the new (bad) fare rules we shouldn't have to pay more than $280 to make a change.Ignore that part -- it's a generic blurb put on by Orbitz, and means absolutely nothing (other than that Orbitz will charge you $30 for their work).

I'm still confused about the relationship between making a change/the need to reissue the ticket/the need to reprice (considering new (bad) vs. original fare rules). The agent said AZ told Orbitz to reprice if changes are made, but I just don't know if that is what the fare rules are now saying (and if they didn't say them before). Any help KVS?The original fare rules are on the T-Shirt: http://xs77.xs.to/pics/06163/AZ_FT_T-Shirt.jpg. The new fare rules are saying that no changes can be made whatsoever, but AZ is also advising the agents that it would be willing 'to waive' such a restriction, in exchange for TA doing a re-price.

Just had a brief conversation with AZ 'reservations'. The agent was rude, told me I couldn't make changes, could not speak to a supervisor, could not have the contact information for the office in Rome handling this, and then hung up on me...

Just had a brief conversation with AZ 'reservations'. The agent was rude, told me I couldn't make changes, could not speak to a supervisor, could not have the contact information for the office in Rome handling this, and then hung up on me...


Called back to speak to a supervisor- endless ringing with nobody picking up.

I think I'll try some daily phone calls:
(212) 903-3300
Fax: (212) 903-3350
Sr. VP, N. America: Giulio Libutti (212) 903-3438
Sr. Dir. Sales, USA/Mexico: Marcelo Grimaldi (212) 903-3430

I filed online complaints wit the Canadian Transportation Agency and the Better Business Bureau of New York. If Alitalia won't respond to me directly, perhaps some outside intervention will at least force them to open up channels of communication.

Maybe the Vatican has an AZ liaison who can intercede on our behalf? ;)

I am a little hesitant to call CT or Alitalia right now for fear that the will know that I know that they changed my flights.

My case is slightly different from some of yours… When I purchased my tickets, they were never cancelled and tickets were sent to me. I called CT regarding a question I had about a week ago and also Alitalia a couple of days ago to get seat assignments. Up to this point, nothing was changed and everything seemed fine. Therefore, having done my due diligence, I just wanna show up at the airport and act as if everything should be ok. If they deny me boarding, I want my 600 EUR (x 2 tickets) as per their IDB rules as they never informed of any change and I have confirmed tickets of my original flights… so I should reasonably expect to be on that flight!

Anyone else feeling the same way?

1. Either CT or AZ will almost certainly contact you before your travel date to provide notice.

2. Failing #1, I believe that AZ might still have a reconfirmation requirement - they could spring the news on you then.

2. Failing #1, I believe that AZ might still have a reconfirmation requirement - they could spring the news on you then.
Man I love your letter about alitalia's need to resume the original fare rules. It rocks! I am an advocate. I would not mind making a slight change in my itinerary although if it does not happen I am happy with what I got.
Secondly, I have read through many of the posts and it seems the fear for some is greater than for others depending on your route, method of purchase, airlines involved in your itinerary. Am I wrong not to fear? I have YYZ-LCA-YYZ via MXP tickets in hand, AX and CY as carriers, no changes shown on either worldspan or orbitz. I feel like I am flying; made plans, accommodations, vacation notices made etc. I hate to call AZ for them to flag and then make some changes.?? Do you think I need to worry?

The only thing I would add besides the above is that Alitalia has in some cases changed confirmed dates of departures to waitlisted segments on other dates. They also have eliminated confirmed stopovers thereby changing the length of stay - all this without any notification to the customer. When confronted, they suggest refunding the ticket as segments cannot be confirmed.

Dont know if any of this applied to you...


AZ changed also my ticket. I was booked LCA-FCO-JFK-YZZ and now they changed me to LCA-MXP-YZZ.

I don't want this!

When I called the special number at Cheaptickets.com, they told me they would not help us in this matter.

After a disput, the b*** even hang up the phone! :mad:

PS: First the Cheaptickets CSR played games with me, telling me she has no idea about new fare rules. During the phone call she admitted that AZ changed the fare rules and she also told me that they don't care about that! :mad:

Man I love your letter about alitalia's need to resume the original fare rules. It rocks! I am an advocate. I would not mind making a slight change in my itinerary although if it does not happen I am happy with what I got.
Secondly, I have read through many of the posts and it seems the fear for some is greater than for others depending on your route, method of purchase, airlines involved in your itinerary. Am I wrong not to fear? I have YYZ-LCA-YYZ via MXP tickets in hand, AX and CY as carriers, no changes shown on either worldspan or orbitz. I feel like I am flying; made plans, accommodations, vacation notices made etc. I hate to call AZ for them to flag and then make some changes.?? Do you think I need to worry?

AZ has already "flagged" your booking - if it wants to impose changes to your booking, it will do so whether you call or not.

That said, if your booking contains no interline segments, AND has no weekend (Fri/Sat/Sun) transatlantic segments, you are probably fine -- for now.

I filed online complaints wit the Canadian Transportation Agency and the Better Business Bureau of New York. If Alitalia won't respond to me directly, perhaps some outside intervention will at least force them to open up channels of communication.

I filed online with CTA as well - just about my need to get my aquatic fitness up to date to swim back to MXP from LCA.

CTA WILL notice if there's all of a sudden 100+ complaints in a short period of time regarding one airline/issue.

WOO HOO I already have a mediator assigned.


could we take all together legal steps against Alitalia?

Any US (or native English speaking) guy with legal knowlege around? Please PM me, I would like to discuss this matter with you as I have an idea about taking legal steps against:

a) Alitalia for changing the rules/breaking a legal contract
b) Orbitz and Cheaptickets for illegaly charging "service charges". Remember: Service includes that they help us having our bookings honored as they are.

There isn't a BBB in Toronto. Weird.
There was at one time, but believe it or not there was a scandal some years ago...

There was at one time, but believe it or not there was a scandal some years ago... http://www.thebbb.ca/toronto.html this is the link i believe

I am a little hesitant to call CT or Alitalia right now for fear that the will know that I know that they changed my flights.

My case is slightly different from some of yours… When I purchased my tickets, they were never cancelled and tickets were sent to me. I called CT regarding a question I had about a week ago and also Alitalia a couple of days ago to get seat assignments. Up to this point, nothing was changed and everything seemed fine. Therefore, having done my due diligence, I just wanna show up at the airport and act as if everything should be ok. If they deny me boarding, I want my 600 EUR (x 2 tickets) as per their IDB rules as they never informed of any change and I have confirmed tickets of my original flights… so I should reasonably expect to be on that flight!

Anyone else feeling the same way?


Could you please tell me more about the IDB rules? Is this US or Canadian law?

There was at one time, but believe it or not there was a scandal some years ago...

I found this (http://www.bbbmwo.ca/commonreport.html?bid=1133092) for the BBB in Ontario.

There isn't a BBB in Toronto. Weird.

Toronto is now served by the BBB located in Kitchener. Here is their contact info:

Better Business Bureau of Mid-Western and Central Ontario and the Greater Toronto Area
354 Charles Street East
Kitchener, Ontario
N2G 4L5


Telephone: (519) 579-3080 (9:00-3:00 EST)
Toll free (Area Codes 705 , 519, 905 and 416 Only): 1-800-459-8875
Fax: (519) 570-0072


e-Mail: inquiry@bbbmwo.ca
Website: www.bbbmwo.ca

Online Reports: www.bbbmwo.ca/search.html
File a Complaint Online: www.bbbmwo.ca/complaint/new

I filed online with CTA as well - just about my need to get my aquatic fitness up to date to swim back to MXP from LCA.

CTA WILL notice if there's all of a sudden 100+ complaints in a short period of time regarding one airline/issue.


Good idea, could you please post the link to this CTA again? I will also fill in a complaint tonight.

This is great- I went through the 'mandatory' 3-way conference call with Orbitz and AZ. The AZ reservation agent is now saying that there is no way for AZ to have changed the fare rules- that the fare rules we see now are how they have always been.

If they won't admit that they changed the fair rules, what can we do?

This is great- I went through the 'mandatory' 3-way conference call with Orbitz and AZ. The AZ reservation agent is now saying that there is no way for AZ to have changed the fare rules- that the fare rules we see now are how they have always been.

If they won't admit that they changed the fair rules, what can we do?

Stop dealing with minions who have zero authority to definitively address the matter and focus solely on targeting AZ management, govt. regulators, and the media regarding this issue?

Good idea, could you please post the link to this CTA again? I will also fill in a complaint tonight.

http://forms.cta-otc.gc.ca/intraweb/AirComplaints/AirComplaintForm_e.cfm

Stop dealing with minions who have zero authority to definitively address the matter and focus solely on targeting AZ management, govt. regulators, and the media regarding this issue?


Thank you and I agree HeathrowGuy!! ^ The front line agents and supervisors will never be able to do anything for us. So it must be escalated to Senior Management.

Stop dealing with minions who have zero authority to definitively address the matter and focus solely on targeting AZ management, govt. regulators, and the media regarding this issue?

Yea, that's true. I couldn't get through to any of the management, so I'm trying all aspects. The number I got for Rome is 06 22 22. Sounds like a general reservation number to me.

The agent is now saying that I can fax a copy of my tickets, a copy of the original fare rules, and a letter stating what I want to the rate desk.... interesting.

If you read thru the CTA complaints,the average for AZ is 3 every 6 months.The most was for 15 for Air France.Wonder what 100 complaints will do .

Could you please tell me more about the IDB rules? Is this US or Canadian law?

Both a EU law (covering EU airlines going to/from the EU) as well as Alitalia's own law:

http://www.alitalia.com/Images/CGT_en_0605_final_tcm9-10352.pdf

(See Article X - page 26)

EU Law:

http://oasis.gov.ie/transport/air_transport/air_passenger_rights_in_the_EU.html

More specifically:

http://oasis.gov.ie/transport/air_transport/compensation_for_overbooked_flights.html

I called Orbitz today on one of my 7 tickets. Their automated voice system of my Iten was different then their website, and obviously different from my original booking. As with others ,changes that require swimming. Orbitz CSR was going to call AZ but actually connected me. I gave the AZ CSR my AZ ticket locater and she confirmed my original flights. But when I tried to put the ticket locater # in their website reservation system it gives me an error message. Just my update.

I have 1 2006 and 2 2007 trips that look good.

I have 2 2006 trips with a friend or spouse that are all screwed up.