I'd appreciate thoughts on following 10 day Japan itinerary:

1.Tokyo (arrive early evening)
2.Tokyo
3.Fuji/Hakone - Lake Ashi
4.Takayama
5.Takayama - Kyoto
6.Kyoto
7.Kyoto/Nara (Kyoto hotel)
8.Kyoto/Himeji castle (Kyoto hotel)
9.Kyoto (should this be switched to Tokyo?) (Tokyo hotel)
10.Tokyo
11.Tokyo/to airport (5:50p.m. flight)

Is this too intense? Can we do day trips to Kamakura and Nikko from Tokyo?
Someone suggested a Prince ryokan (not the hotel) near Lake Ashi - but I can't find it.

I'd appreciate thoughts on following 10 day Japan itinerary:

1.Tokyo (arrive early evening)
2.Tokyo
3.Fuji/Hakone - Lake Ashi
4.Takayama
5.Takayama - Kyoto
6.Kyoto
7.Kyoto/Nara (Kyoto hotel)
8.Kyoto/Himeji castle (Kyoto hotel)
9.Kyoto (should this be switched to Tokyo?) (Tokyo hotel)
10.Tokyo
11.Tokyo/to airport (5:50p.m. flight)

Is this too intense? Can we do day trips to Kamakura and Nikko from Tokyo?
Someone suggested a Prince ryokan (not the hotel) near Lake Ashi - but I can't find it.

Wow! Others will probably disagree with me, but that looks really full and hectic. I am of the "relax and enjoy" school of travel rather than the "8 countries in 7 days" school. :p This seems VERY dense.

For the same 10 days, I would schedule my arrival in Japan at either NRT or KIX and then exit the country at the end of the time via the other airport. That would eliminate backtracking and free up one travel day for other things. If that is not possible, then I would probably plan at least 3 days in Tokyo, a day or two in Hakone, 4 or 5 days in Kyoto (2 or 3 days in town and 2 days for daytrips to Nara, Himeji or wherever,) then train all the way to Narita the afternoon before departure day. The day of departure, before the late flight home, I'd spend the morning in Narita City, then go to the airport. An alternative would be to eliminate Hakone or make it a daytrip and add another day to Tokyo, allowing daytrips to Kamakura and/or Nikko (both easy out-and back trips.)

Don't mean to sound discouraging, but as it is, your itin seems a bit ambitious. I would be afraid that you haven't left time to actually experience the places you are planning to visit.

JR

I'd appreciate thoughts on following 10 day Japan itinerary:

1.Tokyo (arrive early evening)
2.Tokyo
3.Fuji/Hakone - Lake Ashi
4.Takayama
5.Takayama - Kyoto
6.Kyoto
7.Kyoto/Nara (Kyoto hotel)
8.Kyoto/Himeji castle (Kyoto hotel)
9.Kyoto (should this be switched to Tokyo?) (Tokyo hotel)
10.Tokyo
11.Tokyo/to airport (5:50p.m. flight)

Is this too intense? Can we do day trips to Kamakura and Nikko from Tokyo?
Someone suggested a Prince ryokan (not the hotel) near Lake Ashi - but I can't find it.

It doesn't sound too intense to me. If Rick Steves did Japan guidebooks, he could easily shave 3 days off your trip. :cool:

It doesn't sound too intense to me. If Rick Steves did Japan guidebooks, he could easily shave 3 days off your trip. :cool:

Not to mention Phr-d :D !

Hi!
I did a similar itinerary last summer. Definitely spend Day #9 in Kyoto--there is lots to see there and Kyoto is much more 'authentic' Japan than Tokyo is.

Just an FYI--Himeji Castle is amazing, but there isn't much else to see around there. You're right to just do a day trip there.

:)

I'm flying AA from NY, so NRT is it on both ends. I figure a 3 hour train ride back from Kyoto shouldn't be too bad.

I don't want to do too much, and now I've got two opposing views. Thanks, I'll hope I get some more recommendations.

(additional fact - leaving March 30 or 31, so I'll be looking forward to seeing cherry blossoms).

(additional fact - leaving March 30 or 31, so I'll be looking forward to seeing cherry blossoms).
Bing bing bing.......I can "almost" assure that you will be able to see some ! BTW, if you think that your itinerary suits you then do it ^ .

All depends what you want to see and do. If shopping is in the itin, I could do 10 days in Tokyo/Hakone alone and save Kyoto and Osaka on a separate trip.

Agree with i2fantsiz4 about seeing Himeji. It's one of the nicer castles. You only have 2 days (6&9) to do Kyoto. That's a lot of temples and gardens to cover in that timeframe.

Having just spent some time in Takayama over the weekend - I can tell you that it's a nice little town, but it's way off the beaten track:

Journey from Tokyo to Takayama = at least 4hrs 49mins
(Minimum 5hrs 10 mins if you're using a JR pass)

Journey from Takayama to Kyoto = at least 3hrs 41mins
(Minimum 3hrs 50 mins if you're using a JR pass)

That is a lot of travel in order to spend one day in Takayama. The train journey from Nagoya to Takayama is quite pretty... but it might not be the best investment of time.

Don't get me wrong - I think Takayama is a nice town. I'd say it's good for a full day of sightseeing (but not more). It gets plenty of Japanese tourists and it deserves more foreign visitors. I would really love to spend some time touring Takayama, Shirakawa-go, some hot springs around Oku Hida or Gero, then Kanazawa, and the Noto peninsular.... but a day trip just doesn't cut it for me.

If this is your first visit to Japan, then my guess is that you'd get a better "return" on your time if you were to skip Takayama and make a day trip from Tokyo to Kamakura or Nikko instead.

If you took Takayama out of your plan, what would you miss?
- You would not get a chance to see the Takayama "old town" - a series of low, wooden shop fronts along two or three streets in the style that would have been common in the 19th century.
- You would miss the morning markets, which are nice markets. (assuming that you arrive early enough to see them)
- You would miss the impressive Takayama Jinya, which was the outpost of the Tokugawa administration during the Tokugawa bakufu.
- You would miss some temples.
- You would miss a nice park with preserved old buildings.
- You would miss a nice train journey.

It's not insignificant - I know - but even so, I think the old shop fronts exist in parts of Kyoto, the markets (and that kind of atmosphere) can be found in Kyoto and Tokyo, the temples are less impressive than what you can see in Kamakura, Nikko, Kyoto and Nara....well you get my drift.

Kyoto is much more 'authentic' Japan than Tokyo is.


Sure, Kyoto has a greater number of authentic, historical buildings and cultural assets... but that's not the only 'authentic' Japan.

Tokyo is an authentic Japanese city, with authentic Japanese people ... doing authentic Japanese things ... in authentically Japanese ways.

[And BTW - Kyoto also offers a lot of totally unauthentic experiences. (People dressing up as geisha, who aren't really geisha / Movie-set recreations of old Japanese streets / stores selling plastic samurai swords / etc. etc.). ]

Himeji Castle is amazing, but there isn't much else to see around there. You're right to just do a day trip there.

I agree that Himeji can be visited in one day.
In addition to Himeji castle, I would also recommend visiting Engyoji temple, which is 30 minutes from the city center by bus:
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3503.html

It can be a very peaceful place - quite a contrast from the more crowded temples that you will see in the cities.

while in kyoto, I found the one day bus pass worthwhile. I think they were about 500 Yen each. IIRC Bus and subway pass was 1200 Yen.


edit to add
link (http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/visitkyoto/en/info_required/transportation/bus&taxis/)

1.Tokyo (arrive early evening)
2.Tokyo
3.Fuji/Hakone - Lake Ashi
4.Takayama
5.Takayama - Kyoto
6.Kyoto
7.Kyoto/Nara (Kyoto hotel)
8.Kyoto/Himeji castle (Kyoto hotel)
9.Kyoto (should this be switched to Tokyo?) (Tokyo hotel)
10.Tokyo
11.Tokyo/to airport (5:50p.m. flight)


I’m with jib71 on this one. Takayama is pretty time consuming to get to, and it’s even harder to get to from the Hakone area than from Tokyo itself.

I did an itinerary similar to yours last October with my parents and felt compelled to make a choice between travelling to Inuyama (near Nagoya) via the Fuji area or getting there via the central mountains (Matsumoto-Magome-Tsumago-Inuyama – but we could easily have chosen to go to Takayama instead). Personally I felt it was impossible to see both Hakone and the Kiso region in that time, purely because of the limitations of the available rail routes. However, I admit that it was relatively easy for me to forgo the trip to Hakone as I’d already been there.

You haven’t actually left yourself much time to really see Kyoto – and if you are able to make it for cherry blossom season you’ll want to be able to enjoy the experience; which involves a lot of sitting around and a lot of drinking.

Apart from the Takayama trip, your itinerary seems quite fluid to me – I’m sure you’ll all have plenty of the energy you'll need! How about a trip to Mount Koya instead of Takayama? (perhaps spend the night in a temple lodging)

And if you do have to miss out Takayama, you could always go to the Nihon Minka En (http://www.city.kawasaki.jp/88/88minka/home/x-minf_e.htm) near Tokyo to see traditional houses in a beautiful parkland setting (I’m sure this would be a lovely place to see the cherries blossom)

Takayama is definitely (modestly) harder to get to, but I remember it being the highlight of my first trip to Japan. Obviously, it depends on personal preference, but I think the itinerary presented is more than doable. It will not be particularly leisurely, but probably leisurely enough for the typical go-go American tourist (which would include me!).

Takayama is definitely (modestly) harder to get to, but I remember it being the highlight of my first trip to Japan.

What was it about Takayama that made it the highlight of your trip?

Just curious ? For the first time, do you do that by yourself or tour ? I will in Japan for five days. Do not know what I plan to do yet.

Just curious ? For the first time, do you do that by yourself or tour ? I will in Japan for five days. Do not know what I plan to do yet.

My first trip was just 7 days, I did my own research and never took a tour.

I’d stick to a city (either Tokyo or Kyoto/Osaka) and go on day trips from there.

From Tokyo – Hakone (as I did), Kumakura, Nikko or even Mount Takao

From Osaka/Kyoto – Nara, Mt Koya, Himeji.

5 days should be enough of a taster, if you like it, you’ll go back.

What was it about Takayama that made it the highlight of your trip?

I think we liked the historic, mountain-town atmosphere. Tourist Japan on a human scale, I guess. We used the opportunity to stay at a ryokan. And I still remember the little kids shouting "gaijin" at us.

If you're heading down from Tokyo to Kyoto on a railpass, I think it's very worth the detour if you have the time.

And I still remember the little kids shouting "gaijin" at us.

Oh, I remember that too........it was just like yesterday, actually it was :p .......

Oh, I remember that too........it was just like yesterday, actually it was :p .......

You devil, you. :)

I'm actually surprised it still happens. In China, I was in Guangdong province about 10 years ago (less than 100 miles from H.K.) and people stared at us like we were Martians. I visited the same town 5 years later and they had seen so many Martians by then that nobody gave us a second look.

I guess it's a "different" thing in Japan among the younger set.

First, let me thank all for their valued input.
Q shoe guy - what is Phr d?
As much as Takayama sounds quaint, it seems like a no-go.
BUt - how bad is getting to Takayama from Fuji/Hakone?
What does anyone know of the Romance Car (train) from Tokyo to Fuji Hakone? is it on JR pass?
asking again, does anyone know of Prince Ryokan at Lake Ashi (Hakone)?
How will I get from Fuji to Kyoto?
How much time will a day trip to Himeji castle take?

Q shoe guy - what is Phr d?

Phr d is another poster who can do all of Tokyo in 18 hours(latest estimate, the true Tokyoites can fill you in more :) )....it's a not so inside joke on this board.

With regards to one of your questions .......
Himeji Castle is easily reachable on Shinkansen or regular JR lines in short order. You can then walk from the station up a large street to the castle. The tour around the castle might take 1-2hours.

how bad is getting to Takayama from Fuji/Hakone?

Let's assume that you stay the night near Hakone Yumoto station
From there you need to take a train to Odawara. That's about 20 minutes:
http://www.odakyu.jp/english/railmap/index.html
From Odawara you take a Shinkansen to Nagoya.
(However, you should note that Odawara is not a "main station" on the Shinkansen route - so the trains are not so frequent).
From Nagoya you change to the Hida Takayama line for a scenic trip up to Takayama (slightly over two hours).

It's not "BAD" ... but I don't think train travel in Japan is ever bad .... It's more a question of how much train travel you want to do during your 10 day visit... and how much interest you have in Takayama. It's your call.

Exact train times can be found on the following site:
http://grace.hyperdia.com/cgi-english/hyperd01.cgi

What does anyone know of the Romance Car (train) from Tokyo to Fuji Hakone?

Be careful what you ask for - I'm pretty sure that Railroad Tycoon could write several volumes on what he knows about the Romance Car. :D

is it on JR pass?

No - The Odakyu railway company is not part of the JR group. The JR rail pass is not valid on the Romance Car and other Odakyu services.

The Odakyu company does offer it's own explorer pass, which might be of interest:
http://www.odakyu.jp/english/freepass/hakone_01.html

If you're spending 10 days in Japan and you're planning on getting a 7-day JR pass, then this is not a problem. Do the Hakone trip at the start of your 10 days. You could arrange for your JR pass to become valid after you do the Hakone trip. Then use the JR pass for the trip to Kyoto + possible trip to Takayama + return to Tokyo + journey to Narita airport.


(You can specify the "start" date of the JR pass at Narita airport when you arrive. I would recommend setting this up immediately upon arrival at Narita Airport - because only a few stations are equipped to set up a JR pass for you. One of them is Narita Airport).

How will I get from Fuji to Kyoto?

Let's assume that you stay the night near Hakone Yumoto station
From there you need to take a train to Odawara. That's about 20 minutes:
http://www.odakyu.jp/english/railmap/index.html
From Odawara you take a Shinkansen to Kyoto.
(However, you should note that Odawara is not a "main station" on the Shinkansen route - so the trains are not so frequent).

Exact train times can be found on the following site:
http://grace.hyperdia.com/cgi-english/hyperd01.cgi


How much time will a day trip to Himeji castle take?

2 or 3 hours is good for the castle itself. If you take a picnic lunch or a bento to enjoy in the gardens in front of the castle and a trip up the mountain to the Engyoji temple that I mentioned before, it can be a full day out.

With regards to one of your questions .......
Himeji Castle is easily reachable on Shinkansen or regular JR lines in short order. You can then walk from the station up a large street to the castle. The tour around the castle might take 1-2hours.

I will manfully refrain from commenting on the aforementioned "inside joke." Needless to say, I think you need more than a day and a half for Tokyo. ;)

For Himeji, the train from Kyoto is less than an hour and the walk up to the castle is a nice 10-15 minute stroll. A leisurely visit to the castle would eat up an hour or two, but don't miss the gardens just outside the castle entrance. Then, there are several of nice little places to eat along the way back to the station, followed by the train ride back to Kyoto or Osaka. You could "do" Himeji in a few hours, including travel time, but most of a day would be more rewarding.

JR

I would schedule my arrival in Japan at either NRT or KIX and then exit the country at the end of the time via the other airport. That would eliminate backtracking and free up one travel day for other things.
agreed ^

My first trip was just 7 days, I did my own research and never took a tour.

I’d stick to a city (either Tokyo or Kyoto/Osaka) and go on day trips from there.

From Tokyo – Hakone (as I did), Kumakura, Nikko or even Mount Takao

From Osaka/Kyoto – Nara, Mt Koya, Himeji.

5 days should be enough of a taster, if you like it, you’ll go back.

It seems go with tour is cheaper and better use your time. All of my friends told me , so...

Thanks. By the way, Kyoto=Osaka ?

Thanks. By the way, Kyoto=Osaka ?


No, but the cities are adjacent to each other.

It seems go with tour is cheaper and better use your time. All of my friends told me , so...

Thanks. By the way, Kyoto=Osaka ?

That's not a statement of fact - it just depends on who you are and what kind of touring you like to do. As your friends know you well and are more likely to share similar tastes and interests than I suggest you listen to them.

However, an organised tour would not be suitable for me, nor for my multi-cultural family. And certainly not cheaper either.

duplicate post

It seems go with tour is cheaper and better use your time. All of my friends told me , so...

Wow! I really don't agree with that. It all depends on the traveler and his or her needs and desires. If you are more comfortable traveling with an organized group and seeing many sights in a few days, then definitely do it. You will not have to figure out how to use trains, subways and buses or order in restaurants and find your way around when you do not know the language. I, on the other hand, probably spend less than half what a tour group would charge for an equal time and I can set my own agenda on where to go and what to see.

It is all about your expectations and needs, but guided tours will rarely be cheaper. :)

JR

Disclaimer: This message reflects a lot of my personal preferences. Your mileage (or anyone else's) may vary. Also note that I have planned our first trip to Japan for April - so I don't speak from personal experience. I've simply planned our trip based on the way I like to travel.

One of my preferences is that I spend as little time packing/unpacking and traveling once I've arrived somewhere and as much time as possible seeing and experiencing what's there. Unless you are a very light packer - that seems to be - from what I've read here - a good idea in Japan (I've read that trains aren't geared up for people carrying large amounts of luggage - so we plan to forward ours for our 2 hotel transfers). Another preference is that I never want to arrive in a foreign country without hotel reservations (don't want to spend *any* time finding a place to stay - I had to do it when I was a student staying at youth hostels - I don't have to do it now).

With 10 nights - I would spend 5 in Tokyo and 5 in Kyoto - and take day trips out of those cities if you'd like. That will give you lots of time to explore 2 very different places - and attractions close to them. I don't think you mentioned when your plane left for home - but if it's in the afternoon - you can take the train from Kyoto to the airport the day of departure (that is in fact what we're doing - and it's an easy connection). (Like you - we are flying on an airline that only flies into Narita - so we don't have a choice of airports.)

From Tokyo - I believe it is a relatively easy day trip to Mt. Fuji (I assume you don't want to climb Mt. Fuji - which - if I recall correctly - is an overnight trip involving a stay on the mountain - and I don't think March is the season for it).

I disagree with people who say that Tokyo is not "authentic Japan". I believe Tokyo is the largest city in the world these days - with 14 million or so Japanese inhabitants - and if that is not "authentic Japan" - I don't know what is. Although I think shrines and castles and the like can be interesting (in terms of providing historical context and forcing you to learn some history if you want to understand what you're seeing) - my primary goal when visiting a country is learning about contemporary culture.

And I don't know how you can do justice to a city like Tokyo in a day or two. Especially if you have any interest in food - the food possibilities are simply mind-boggling. For example - I am planning to spend the better part of a day with a friend touring the "food halls" in a few department stores in Ginza. That may not be your cup of tea (perhaps you like gardens - or art - or design - or video games :) ) - but I'm sure that Tokyo will have something to entice you. Tokyo is very much a city of neighborhoods (some of which are very different at night than they are by day) - and if you read about the neighborhoods - you will probably find at least a few you'd like to explore. I recommend getting a copy of Time Out Tokyo (a guide to the city) for a very readable summary of what the city has to offer. Robyn

P.S. Kamakura is an easy day trip from Tokyo (about 1 hour each way on the train) - Nikko is 2 hours by fastest method - the latter is too long in terms of a day trip for me.

robyng:

A few comments on your interesting post.

First, you can double the people sharing the space on the Kanto plain. Tokyo and surroundings should field around 27 million happy campers if not a few more.

Mt.Fuji - You remember John Carpenter's classic horror flick The Fog? Well, it's being replayed most days around Fuji-san. Better ask ahead if the visibility is more than a hundred meters or so during your visit.

If Tokyo should not be authentic Japan, the people living there surely are, for many either willingly or out of despair move from all over Japan to the capital to find work, better chances and/or a new life.

Commuting to Narita - Just my opinion, but even with an afternoon flight I would prefer to stay in the neighbourhood for the previous night. Too many close calls in the past 15 years I've promised myself not to repeat. ;)

I would love to live in Kamakura. :) From there I could commute to the curry rice temple adjacent to Shinjuku station once a week to get my fix of city culture and return to the tranquility.

If this is your first visit to Japan, then my guess is that you'd get a better "return" on your time if you were to skip Takayama and make a day trip from Tokyo to Kamakura or Nikko instead.
Nikko!!!!!!!!!

I don't know if you guys remember me :p someday I'll really write an essay about my infamous remark (which I'm going to start charging royalties on), but this is what I was getting at. Going to Nikko, and to a lesser extent Nara, really made me feel like I was "in" Japan. Then again, so did riding the Shinkansen.

robyng:

A few comments on your interesting post.

First, you can double the people sharing the space on the Kanto plain. Tokyo and surroundings should field around 27 million happy campers if not a few more.

Mt.Fuji - You remember John Carpenter's classic horror flick The Fog? Well, it's being replayed most days around Fuji-san. Better ask ahead if the visibility is more than a hundred meters or so during your visit.

If Tokyo should not be authentic Japan, the people living there surely are, for many either willingly or out of despair move from all over Japan to the capital to find work, better chances and/or a new life.

Commuting to Narita - Just my opinion, but even with an afternoon flight I would prefer to stay in the neighbourhood for the previous night. Too many close calls in the past 15 years I've promised myself not to repeat. ;)

I would love to live in Kamakura. :) From there I could commute to the curry rice temple adjacent to Shinjuku station once a week to get my fix of city culture and return to the tranquility.

Twenty seven million may be the metro area as opposed to the city limits? My husband and I live in the Jacksonville FL area (it is the largest city in terms of square miles in the US - and its only other current claim to fame is that we're hosting some of the early rounds of the NCAA basketball tournament). Population a bit over a million. We are spending a day with a son of a friend of ours and his family (they live in Tokyo). They told us to expect a place about the size of Jacksonville - with about 30 times as many people. Sounds about right - and more than a little intimidating.

We have lived in Florida - one of the flattest places on earth - for more than 30 years. We are very unused to rolling hills - much less mountains. I got my husband to drive up the side of a volcano in Hawaii and along the fjords of Norway perhaps a decade ago - but I don't think he would feel comfortable doing that today. And his knee is shot from years of running - so climbing Mt. Fuji is even more out of the question. At this point - he would prefer to see mountains from a distance - perhaps with a martini in hand :) . And if they are covered with fog - so be it.

I don't know why so many people are so down on Tokyo. Sounds like a wonderful city to me. I could probably spend an entire afternoon exploring chocolate shops!

On a more serious note - 3 questions.

Our flight from Narita isn't until 4 pm - maybe 4:30. Would that be a close call if we tried to make it from Kyoto using an early morning train? Seems like plenty of time - and I'd hate to waste a night in an airport hotel with such a late flight (we're already spending 2 nights in airport hotels in the US because we don't want to leave home at 4 am or arrive home after midnight -JAX doesn't have the best international connections in the world - and neither does MCO if you're going to Tokyo).

We had dinner with some friends who've been to Japan a few times - and - after our dinner - I put a big star next to Kamakura - with notes like "must go". Were our friends right? We have 5 days in Tokyo - and I'd hate to waste one on a day trip if it isn't a "must go".

What is the "curry rice temple". I have heard of Gyoza Stadium - and hope to get there - but have not heard of the "curry rice temple". Robyn

P.S. We are staying at the Granvia in Kyoto - which is right over the rail station.

I don't know why so many people are so down on Tokyo. Sounds like a wonderful city to me. I could probably spend an entire afternoon exploring chocolate shops!



Tokyo is one place I go back to again and again... even for a short stay. food, shopping, onsen...



On a more serious note - 3 questions.

Our flight from Narita isn't until 4 pm - maybe 4:30. Would that be a close call if we tried to make it from Kyoto using an early morning train? Seems like plenty of time - and I'd hate to waste a night in an airport hotel with such a late flight (we're already spending 2 nights in airport hotels in the US because we don't want to leave home at 4 am or arrive home after midnight -JAX doesn't have the best international connections in the world - and neither does MCO if you're going to Tokyo).




1) You should have enough time... But I usually would come back to Tokyo the day before, do last minute shopping, etc.. so do a 4-5-1 trip instead of a 5-5. I'd like the peace of mind.

Definitely gotta do gyoza stadium... at least for an afternoon snack.

Nikko!!!!!!!!!

I don't know if you guys remember me :p someday I'll really write an essay about my infamous remark (which I'm going to start charging royalties on), but this is what I was getting at. Going to Nikko, and to a lesser extent Nara, really made me feel like I was "in" Japan. Then again, so did riding the Shinkansen.

I am not sure what you mean by "in Japan". I have a regular weekly internet chat with some friends I've picked up over the years on line (have been speaking with one for over 5 years!). Last week - her son was on spring break with a Japanese/American friend from college (he was born in Japan - but he and his family live in the US now). So I chatted with the son's friend. And we were talking about video arcades. At first he was enthusiastic about my trying them. And then - upon reflection - he told me about some things that go on in those places that I - as a 58 year woman - might not be comfortable with (they're kind of raunchy). I found his description interesting - but what I found particularly interesting was that he was discussing the stuff with me at all (and he - as a 19 year old young man - didn't seem the slightest bit uncomfortable). He was just so - well - matter of fact about certain sexual things. Something I've read about Japan - but never experienced personally.

I've traveled a fair amount - and it suits me not to romanticize countries based on historical places/events. I suspect there is less tension between ancient Japan and contemporary Japan than say - perhaps - between ancient Egypt and contemporary Egypt (it is always better when a country is wealthier today than it was 500 or 5000 years ago). Still - there is probably some tension.

So what do you mean by "in Japan"? Robyn

Our flight from Narita isn't until 4 pm - maybe 4:30. Would that be a close call if we tried to make it from Kyoto using an early morning train?

Don't worry robyng - It does not need to be a close call. There are plenty of trains which leave Kyoto in the morning and give you ample time to reach Narita for a 2.00pm check in.

Do some searches on hyperdia for routes from KYOTO to NARITA AIRPORT on the day of your departure.

http://grace.hyperdia.com/cgi-english/hyperd01.cgi

If you are using a JR pass, then you will need to use "Hikari" trains (because the pass is not valid on "Nozomi" trains).

Based on today's timetable, that you could take a Hikari train from Kyoto at 10.00am and arrive at 1.57pm.

If you prefer a little more "cushion" (like I do) then you might choose to take an earlier train - such as the Hikari at 09.36am or 09.00am.

Bottom line = It's pefectly feasible for you to reach Narita in plenty of time to catch a 4pm flight.

I am not sure what you mean by "in Japan".
I have read your message 2 or 3 times and I'm not at all sure what you are asking.

I have read your message 2 or 3 times and I'm not at all sure what you are asking.

Don't worry, it's mutual! :) (I don't understand what you mean by 'in japan' either!)

Nikko is an overblown, overwrought monument to a Shogun and showcases a very much dead and gone era, and within that, the lives of a miniscule segment of the population. As a piece of history – Nikko is magnificent! But even 150 years ago, it had very little to do with the everyday lives of the Japanese people – apart from its priests and ‘emissaries’ who bribed and bullied their way across Japan on their way to Kyoto, extorting all the money they could from the merchants, farmers and porters en route (in many communities threats that the ‘Nikko emissary’ was coming was used in the same way as ‘The Bogeyman’ is used to quieten unruly children in the West). It represents Japan in a similar way to how the Taj Mahal represents India.

‘In Japan’ means many things – if I want to step back to the era depicted in the exquisite films of Yasujiro Ozu, then I head off to Kamakura (and there are shops there that haven’t changed since the 60s. I’d love to live there too!). - Sengakuji (http://www.tcvb.or.jp/en/infomation/7recom/st04.html) (where the 47 Ronin are enshrined) is a peaceful (almost sombre) oasis amongst a quiet, affluent residential area sandwiched between two of Tokyo's more important business districts – many people still come to pay their respects here so that this piece of history seems strangely contemporary and ‘real’. And I could go on… and on… I’ll stop before this turns into a full essay.

But the quintessential feeling of being ‘in Japan’ for me is sitting around the warmth of the Kotatsu (http://www.tamegoeswild.com/photos/japan2002/01/images/kotatsu.jpg) at my Grandmother-in-law's home, drinking tea and watching the Enka singers on the ‘red & white’ show underneath a simple shrine for the Shinto spirits, with incense burning in another part of the room dedicated to my Grandfather-in-law . A step outside the door of this small wooden house and you’re confronted with the ‘Empire State Building’ replica at Takashimaya Shinjuku.

phred - robyng was inviting you to explain why you got your own quintessential being 'in Japan' feelings from Nara and Nikko. What was it about these places that made them feel more 'real' to you?

I don't know if you guys remember me :p someday I'll really write an essay about my infamous remark.

I really wish you would!!! No need to go for an essay – but it would be nice to know what you personally believe is worthwhile in Tokyo.

Part of why I like this forum so much is because I don’t agree with everything written here – however, the differences in view have done much to open my eyes to aspects of Japan I would have remained unaware of or ignorant about (not always the same thing ;) ). The more removed the view portrayed here is from my own, the more interesting it is to me – but only if the thinking and logic behind it is explained. I’ve felt incredibly privileged in this forum, and gotten an awful lot out of it, as I can rely on almost everyone who contributes here to explain the remarks and suggestions they make. However, this behaviour has led to a terrible habit… I take what people say here seriously. I literally cannot imagine how to reduce a visit to Tokyo to 1.5 days – even trying to is like imagining edges to the universe, or tackling a rubiks cube. As your remark gets quoted so often, I suspect that others here have gone through the same mental gymnastics I have. An unsolvable conundrum made from a simple formula is memorable, and sticks in the craw. I’d like to think that you did not intend for your comment to become an inscrutable riddle – hence my initial, and very genuine request, for assistance in unravelling it.

Wow! I really don't agree with that. It all depends on the traveler and his or her needs and desires. If you are more comfortable traveling with an organized group and seeing many sights in a few days, then definitely do it. You will not have to figure out how to use trains, subways and buses or order in restaurants and find your way around when you do not know the language. I, on the other hand, probably spend less than half what a tour group would charge for an equal time and I can set my own agenda on where to go and what to see.

It is all about your expectations and needs, but guided tours will rarely be cheaper. :)

JR

I check out a few tours VacationsToGo.com and a few websites. It seems cheaper than I make the reservation in the middle class hotel. Personally I like to go by myself. I have the freedom. Doing the research and prepare the trip is adventure and learning experience with planning. I have never on vacation just with my son who is 13 years old . He does not like to walk. I am not sure whether it goes well without the tour.

Thanks.

I check out a few tours VacationsToGo.com and a few websites. It seems cheaper than I make the reservation in the middle class hotel. Personally I like to go by myself. I have the freedom. Doing the research and prepare the trip is adventure and learning experience with planning. I have never on vacation just with my son who is 13 years old . He does not like to walk. I am not sure whether it goes well without the tour.

Thanks.

Ooh, yikes! A 13 year old who doesn’t like to walk… in Japan! Now that’s tough!!!!

The only itinerary I can suggest for you is to get a Hakone Free pass to explore this part of the country (can be done as a day trip from Tokyo). You basically go on a circuit of the area – starting with train, then onto a train which is pulled up a steep slope by cable, then onto a couple of suspended cable cars, then a ship and finally a bus. Lots of sights to see, not much walking to do.

I'm sure that, in your case, an organised tour may very well be the best way to go.

... Nikko is an overblown, overwrought monument to a Shogun and showcases a very much dead and gone era, and within that, the lives of a miniscule segment of the population. As a piece of history – Nikko is magnificent! ...

Well! I thought I was the only one. I am intersted in history, particularly feudal history, so I was glad I made the effort to get out to old Ieyasu's monument, and it is beautiful. On the other hand, it is a 2 hour, one-way train ride, followed by a lot of hill-walking around a glorified graveyard, followed by another 2 hour train ride back to Tokyo. I wouldn't do it again and recommend friends who are not so history oriented to consider other day trips. Kamakura, Kyoto, Nara, Horyu-ji, Himeji and a variety of other, more accessible places seem to be better choices for time-limited travelers. For cemetery enthusiasts, Yanaka comes to mind. :p

Don't get me wrong. Nikko is nice. Just not near the top of my list to use up most of a day in Japan.

JR

I check out a few tours VacationsToGo.com and a few websites. It seems cheaper than I make the reservation in the middle class hotel. Personally I like to go by myself. I have the freedom. Doing the research and prepare the trip is adventure and learning experience with planning. I have never on vacation just with my son who is 13 years old . He does not like to walk. I am not sure whether it goes well without the tour.

Thanks.

In your particular case, you may be right - you'd be better off with something organized that will bus you around to the various sites. My recommendations were for someone who travels like me - using local public transportation, staying in low-cost inns, walking from site to site and generally blending in to the area as much as possible. Your comment about doing the research and planning the trip being part of the adventure really struck home with me. I agree! However, that doesn't sound like what you are looking for this time.

Good luck on your trip with your son. Have a wonderful time.

JR

The "curry rice temple" mentioned earlier is just a drab two floor curry rice and gyoza centered fast food place a short distance from JR Shinjuku. Very basic, always full of hungry salarymen and OLs and addictive.

Hi there - when I took my 1st trip to Japan, I was afraid I would never get back again, so I tried to see as much of what interested me as possible.

This itinerary reflected my own personal interests, and wanting to cram in as much as possible - I travelled with a rail pass and public transport. What I did (just generally with respect to cities visited), which looks an awful lot like what you propose to do - it was really a 'whirlwind tour' that left me with blisters on top of my blisters from the walking I did, but it was a nice introduction to Japan for me. I let jet lag work in my favor and was up with the lark on my sightseeing.

Day 1 - arrive Tokyo late afternoon, overnight Tokyo
Day 2 - Tokyo - up at the crack of dawn to visit Tsukiji, walked through Ginza to TIC, walked through grounds of Imperial Palace, and through the associated gardens along to Yasukuni shrine. Then took subway to Shibuya, and walked through Shibuya up Koen dori to go to Harajuku - visited Meiji shrine, and strolled along Take....a dori - this day nearly killed my feet.
Day 3 - Tokyo - Sensoji temple and Asakusa, Kappabashi dori, Ueno Park - visited Toshogu and Inari shrines, Tokyo national Museum, ....amachi Museum, Ameyoko arcade
Day 4 - Shinjuku - walking tour around parts of area in day, Tokyo Tocho for views over city, back to Shibuya for some shopping
Day 5 - Got up VERY early to get earliest possible train for Fuji Hakone - did the 'Loop' on the Hakone Free Pass, and got back to Odawara in time to make connections that same day to Takayama (Whirlwind visit of Fuji-Hakone area
Day 6 Takayama - strolled sanmachi suji, visited morning markets, saw festival floats museum (the one in the town proper), Takayama Jinya, and about an hour thorugh the Hida Takayama open air museum. Caught an afternoon train direct to Kyoto.
Day 7 - Kyoto - Ginkakuji, Walked Philosopher's Path, visited Nanzenji temple, Heian Shrine, evening stroll in Pontocho
Day 8 - Kyoto - Nishikikoji markets,Kiyomizu temple, Sannenzaka, Ryozen Kannon, Kodaiji Temple, Yasaka Shrine, then took bus to Sanjusangendo
Day 9 - Kinkakuji, Nijo Temple
Day 10 - took very early train back to Tokyo, dumped bags in station locker, did a bit of Ginza shopping, then took Narita express to airport to catch flight.

When I did happily get back the second time, I planned a more leisurely itinerary...

Weegiewife, just READING your itinerary tired me out!

OK, after 50+ biz/pleasure trips to Japan, I will now admit that I haven't been to Takayama. Japan guide says that the star attraction is an open air house museum (Hida folk museum), but I hve already been to two other such places: Boso no Mura near Narita and Nihon Minka En near Tokyo. Am I really missing something spectacular?

Japan guide says that the star attraction is an open air house museum (Hida folk museum), but I hve already been to two other such places: Boso no Mura near Narita and Nihon Minka En near Tokyo. Am I really missing something spectacular?

I would rate the Hida folk museum as a secondary attraction of Takayama. The most interesting things for me were
- Old parts of town (and the sake brewery, whose fine product I am now enjoying)
- Takayama Jinya
- Cosy, small-town feeling

Also - You can get the bus from Takayama to Shirakawa-go.... another two hours to see a collection of Japanese Gasho-zukuri houses in the environment in which they were originally built...

For my money, Takayama is a great place to see on a more relaxed itinerary - preferably combined with a visit to Shirakawa-go and perhaps Kanazawa and a hot spring trip.... It isn't so much a "sight" to see as a place to experience (slowly). But if you only have 10 days in Japan, then you don't have so much opportunity to take it easy.

BTW Richard - One more place to see in the Kanto area, if you enjoy the architecture museums is the "Edo-Tokyo Tatemono-en"
http://www.tatemonoen.jp/

Day 2 - Tokyo - up at the crack of dawn to visit Tsukiji, walked through Ginza to TIC, walked through grounds of Imperial Palace, and through the associated gardens along to Yasukuni shrine. Then took subway to Shibuya, and walked through Shibuya up Koen dori to go to Harajuku - visited Meiji shrine, and strolled along Take....a dori - this day nearly killed my feet.


Day 2 alone would have been a 4 day trip for me :p

Even if I would've survived walking this much on one day, I would not have been able to walk for the next three.

I have read your message 2 or 3 times and I'm not at all sure what you are asking.

It is like LapLap said - what is it about these places that made you feel like they were the "real Japan"? Looks more like the Epcot version of Japan to me (old and romanticized) than contemporary Japan. History and culture are always a part of the background of a country - necessary to understand the present. But it is the present that is more interesting to me.

By the way - I saw a picture of the Toshogu in Nikko in a Japanese guidebook I have - and it reminded me of the China exhibit at Epcot. Robn

History and culture are always a part of the background of a country - necessary to understand the present. But it is the present that is more interesting to me.
I guess that's where we differ. Certain cities interest me, but I also want to get out into tye countryside and see the sights. If I've only seen the city, I don't feel like I know the country. When visiting London, I made sure to get out to York, the Cotswolds, etc. In Paris, it's off to the Loire Valley and Mount St. Michel.

You raise an interesting point that really has no answer - what constitutes a tourist trap? I would suggest that Nikko is still quite original and unspoiled, but yes it's heavily travelled. What well-known location in guidebooks isn't? Kamakura isn't exactly an unknown backwater, nor is Nara, Kyoto, Ginza, Shinjuku, Akihabara, on and on and on. I found the little single track clicky-clack train between the Shinkansen station (starts with U, can't recall the name) and Nikko town to be lovely, between the farming and the groves of trees and the small clumps of houses I really got a sense of the countyside to balance out the concrete of Tokyo.

When you take the N'EX from Narita to Tokyo don't you find the contrast between the beginning of the journey and the end fascinating? It's all Japan.

I guess that's where we differ. Certain cities interest me, but I also want to get out into tye countryside and see the sights. If I've only seen the city, I don't feel like I know the country. When visiting London, I made sure to get out to York, the Cotswolds, etc. In Paris, it's off to the Loire Valley and Mount St. Michel.

You raise an interesting point that really has no answer - what constitutes a tourist trap? I would suggest that Nikko is still quite original and unspoiled, but yes it's heavily travelled. What well-known location in guidebooks isn't? Kamakura isn't exactly an unknown backwater, nor is Nara, Kyoto, Ginza, Shinjuku, Akihabara, on and on and on. I found the little single track clicky-clack train between the Shinkansen station (starts with U, can't recall the name) and Nikko town to be lovely, between the farming and the groves of trees and the small clumps of houses I really got a sense of the countyside to balance out the concrete of Tokyo.

When you take the N'EX from Narita to Tokyo don't you find the contrast between the beginning of the journey and the end fascinating? It's all Japan.

OK - we really don't disagree at all. I think understanding what goes on outside the cities in a country is as important - sometimes more important - than understanding what goes on in the cities. Because agriculture - and the influence of agricultural interests - frequently has a huge effect on a country's politics. That was certainly true in Japan for a long time - I've read that there are family farms on the outskirts of Tokyo (due to favorable tax laws?) - which is a real testament to the influence of agricultural interests there. And it may still be true today - haven't read anything about it lately.

We've traveled a lot "in the country" in western Europe - simply because it's easy to rent a car and take off and explore. Didn't sound that easy to do in Japan. My husband is the driver - and I think he could handle the "wrong side" driving (we've done that before). But I am the navigator - and I didn't think I could possibly navigate in a country where I can't even read the characters on the road signs.

We have a decent amount of time for this trip (which is our first - I haven't seen anything in Japan yet :) ) - and perhaps if there is a reasonable opportunity to take a driver for a day - a driver who might speak a little English - my husband speaks a little Japanese - we will be able to explore outside the cities more. I know there are some gardens outside the cities that I want to see - and that would be a good excuse for a trip into the countryside - but I will have to see how things go. My husband and I have had a tiring year. We want to relax a bit - and I don't want to put too much pressure on us (we have to do this, that or the other thing).

By the way - I didn't mean to imply that the places you mentioned were "tourist traps" (I don't know whether or not they are - but I didn't mean to imply it). Only that they are remnants of an older Japan which - for the most part - probably doesn't exist anymore. Perhaps my reference to Epcot threw you off. As a long time resident of Florida - I go to Epcot once in a while - and I like it. I think the Japanese pavilion in particular is a nice little "sliver" of Japan. Everything from a branch of Takashimaya to a traditional Japanese garden (where one of my late mother's best bonsai will be exhibited during the flower festival this spring). If you take a garden tour at Epcot - you will even learn about the differences between traditional Japanese gardens and traditional Chinese gardens (they have both at Epcot - they look similar - but they're very different).

Just because things/activities don't exist anymore except as artifacts doesn't mean that they weren't/aren't worthwhile (even though contemporary culture is of more interest to me). I've spent time seeing many cultural artifacts over the years - and have regretted very little of the time I spent (especially when it comes to things like tombs in Egypt which have since been closed to tourists due to "pollution" from the breath of too many people). I've read that even interest in a traditional Japanese activity like bonsai is waning in Japan as people in Japan - like many people in many other countries - have less and less time to engage in traditional leisure activities in a 24/7 21st century world.

So I guess all I was responding to was the statement about the alleged "real Japan" (the artifacts of the past) versus - I suppose - "non-real Japan" (the culture of the present). You really can't begin to understand a country unless you know both - which is a tall order for the occasional tourist. I know I won't have time to learn much in a first trip that only lasts 2 1/2 weeks - but I intend to try to learn a little (without killing myself - I think I will enjoy traditional Japanese baths very much ;) ). Robyn

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BTW Richard - One more place to see in the Kanto area, if you enjoy the architecture museums is the "Edo-Tokyo Tatemono-en"
http://www.tatemonoen.jp/

This place looks neat, didn't even know it existed. How does it compare to the Meiji Mura in Inuyama-Nagoya?

This place looks neat, didn't even know it existed. How does it compare to the Meiji Mura in Inuyama-Nagoya?

Meiji Mura is larger and it has more "trophy" buildings than the Edo-Tokyo Tatemono en.

There is some overlap - for example, you can see a traditional sento (bath house) and an old-fashioned police station and a photographers' studio etc. in both museums.

Meiji Mura focuses on the Meiji period (late 19th century / early 20th century) and is not tied to one location (it features buildings from anywhere and everywhere). On the other hand, the Edo-Tokyo Tatemono En covers all periods and features only buildings which were actually in Tokyo, so it's a different "cut" into Japanese architectural history.

If you have spent time walking around Tokyo and wondering at some of the incongruous old buildings that are left standing between ferro-concrete apartment blocks... and making up stories in your mind as you imagine the people who spent their lives and built their careers in those buildings... then the Edo Tokyo Tatemono En is a "must see." It has enriched my understanding of this city.

The museum is holidng a special event ("kimono day") on March 25/26 - that might be a good day to go to see it. I imagine that it should be very lively and the Koganei park cherry blossoms might be out too. (So the park might be crowded).

BTW - One of the houses in the Edo Tokyo Tatemono En is the residence of a Japanese architect (Mr. Maekawa) who was one of Japan's foremost modernist architects. Among the buildings that he designed was the (then controversial) Tokio Marine Headquarters Building in Marunouchi.

There is an excellent exhibition of Maekawa's work at the Tokyo Station gallery right now. (Lots of architects models and photos of Maekawa with LeCorbusier and cine film, which Maekawa took of various buildings). I was really delighted to visit that exhibition because I had already walked around his house in the Tatemono En ... I felt as though I already "knew" him in some small way.

BTW - One of the houses in the Edo Tokyo Tatemono En is the residence of a Japanese architect (Mr. Maekawa) who was one of Japan's foremost modernist architects. Among the buildings that he designed was the (then controversial) Tokio Marine Headquarters Building in Marunouchi.

There is an excellent exhibition of Maekawa's work at the Tokyo Station gallery right now. (Lots of architects models and photos of Maekawa with LeCorbusier and cine film, which Maekawa took of various buildings). I was really delighted to visit that exhibition because I had already walked around his house in the Tatemono En ... I felt as though I already "knew" him in some small way.

The Maekawa exhibition closed on March 6th, and the gallery won't reopen until 2011 when they've finished moving the whole station back a few feet closer to the Marubiru. Maekawa also designed a number of the modern Ueno museums.

The Maekawa exhibition closed on March 6th, and the gallery won't reopen until 2011 when they've finished moving the whole station back a few feet closer to the Marubiru. Maekawa also designed a number of the modern Ueno museums.

Hi Pickles - sorry for the bum information about the Maekawa exhibition. You're right that it has closed.

But I just walked past the Tokyo Station Gallery - and it is showing an exhibition of photographs and drawings of Tokyo station over the past 100years - and that exhibition will be open until April 9th 2006. (FREE OF CHARGE!).

Well worth visiting I think... I plan to go soon.

(I have not had time to examine the details yet - but I have a drawing of the renewed station in front of me now. I cannot see a noticeable movement in the position of the station - but I can see that they plan to make a pedestrian square in front of the station.... and the artist has sneakily drawn the tall cylindrical air vents in a green colour... which makes me think that the powers that be are aware that those airvents are are eyesores ... but they won't be getting rid of them).

This place looks neat, didn't even know it existed. How does it compare to the Meiji Mura in Inuyama-Nagoya?

Went to the Tatemono en today. Pretty interesting buildings from another era. I liked a couple of the sprawling farmhouses and the Mitsui house which used to be in Nishiazabu. It was built in 1952, but it was a collection of much older buildings "glued" together to make one big rambling Japanese mansion. The 1920's "modern" houses were also pretty cool. I can see how Frank Lloyd Wright was influenced by them.

Went to the Tatemono en today. Pretty interesting buildings from another era. I liked a couple of the sprawling farmhouses and the Mitsui house which used to be in Nishiazabu. It was built in 1952, but it was a collection of much older buildings "glued" together to make one big rambling Japanese mansion. The 1920's "modern" houses were also pretty cool. I can see how Frank Lloyd Wright was influenced by them.

Speaking of Frank Lloyd Wright - we went to an exhibit yesterday at Shiseido about Art Deco and Shiseido. Among other things - we learned that the former head of the company had Frank Lloyd Wright design a house for him (which was actually built - unusual for a Frank Lloyd Wright design). The model/pictures of the house were interesting. Robyn