http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060308/20060308005304.html?.v=1

Is there a story behind this latest departure?

Is there a story behind this latest departure?

A WJer on the AEF says he's made his money, bought a house in the country and is retiring. :rolleyes:

I don't expext any kind of "real" story to come out.

This is a BIG loss for WestJet. Sandy was well respected by all, even people outside WS.

someone enlighten me...what is AEF?

A WestJet executive, resigning? :eek:

How many executives have they've turned around in 10 years now? 5-10?

A WestJet executive, resigning? :eek:

How many executives have they've turned around in 10 years now? 5-10?

Careful....AC has also seen a few leave. ;) AC Vacations for example.

someone enlighten me...what is AEF?

Airline Employee Forum

A WestJet executive, resigning? :eek:

How many executives have they've turned around in 10 years now? 5-10?

Two senior execs in a very short time is disturbing ,however.

Two senior execs in a very short time is disturbing ,however.

From the outside looking in, sure. Both are/were well respected but Sandy is sticking around for quiet a few more months which leads me to believe that he is possibly retiring. Tim up and left all in one day, which certainly leads to more questions than answers.

Had Morgan not jumped ship, the principal would have departed in december. Instead he stayed for extra assignments in special projects.

Big loss from Westjet's perspective.

Sandy's too young to retired. He could do the consulting route very sucessfully or do the professional Board Member route.

Funny how our resident Westjet expert never chimes in on threads like this :rolleyes:

Funny how our resident Westjet expert never chimes in on threads like this :rolleyes:

Sandy's been there for 10 years.

How many people on this forum have been doing the same job for 10 years?

He's created some wealth for himself and now it's time to enjoy it.

WJA is a spectacularly more proritable business than ACE these days. The company is in great shape.

It's time to move on. It's a non-issue.

You gotta problem with this?

Sandy's been there for 10 years.

How many people on this forum have been doing the same job for 10 years?

He's created some wealth for himself and now it's time to enjoy it.

WJA is a spectacularly more proritable business than ACE these days. The company is in great shape.

It's time to move on. It's a non-issue.

You gotta problem with this?

Not at all. Its probably a good time to leave, since the easy money has been made and its only going to get harder for WS from now on ;)

Not at all. Its probably a good time to leave, since the easy money has been made and its only going to get harder for WS from now on ;)

Ah yes. Starting up an airline is so easy.... ;) Just ask VistaJet, Roots, Greyhound, Astoria, Royal, Canada 3000, Canadian, Air South, Western Pacific, Pro Air, Vanguard, etc etc etc.......

And how many startups survived their first 10 years without having to go into Chapter 11?

The hard work was done years and years ago.

Now it's just a matter of time watching history repeat itself at the legacy carriers.

Where's the challenge in that? :D

[QUOTE]Ah yes. Starting up an airline is so easy.... ;) Just ask VistaJet, Roots, Greyhound, Astoria, Royal, Canada 3000, Canadian, Air South, Western Pacific, Pro Air, Vanguard, etc etc etc.......


Lets face it the WS startup was BS luck in terms of timing and AC is now hitting its stride with new aircraft they have been overdue to get for five years and they are in the process of fully implementing the business model they designed while in CCAA.
They have so many more ways to make money than WS that flying is just a small part of the total profit picture. WS should survive as a regional competitor of AC but their growth is limited unless they change their business model from being a one trick pony to a real airline.



Now it's just a matter of time watching history repeat itself at the legacy carriers.

Assured by another spread sheet analysis of asm/casm/spasm,etc.

Where's the challenge in that?

the challenge will be to compete with a carrier that no longer has one hand tied behind its back and is now beginning to run on all cylinders. You will regret the fact AC would never ever hire you and your speedo.

[QUOTE=Coffeebean]


Lets face it the WS startup was BS luck in terms of timing and AC is now hitting its stride with new aircraft they have been overdue to get for five years and they are in the process of fully implementing the business model they designed while in CCAA.
They have so many more ways to make money than WS that flying is just a small part of the total profit picture. WS should survive as a regional competitor of AC but their growth is limited unless they change their business model from being a one trick pony to a real airline.






Assured by another spread sheet analysis of asm/casm/spasm,etc.



the challenge will be to compete with a carrier that no longer has one hand tied behind its back and is now beginning to run on all cylinders. You will regret the fact AC would never ever hire you and your speedo.

Who's hitting on all cylinders now?

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/investor/documents/JPMorgan-06.pdf
page 27.

That's after 6 months of crappy yields dealing with Leblanc's folly. Do you really think it's not a coincidence that the worst 6 months of WJ's history since '97 happened to be when Jetsgo was on it's last legs? Make no mistake about it, Jetsgo hurt AC as well, but no where near the impact on WJA.

If WJ's timing was lucky, what was wrong with the timing of Astoria, Intair, Jetsgo, Nationair, Royal, C3000, Roots, VistaJet, CanJet 1 etc etc etc? Why is it that 97% of startups fail in North America in the first 15 months?

I don't think you'll find too many people who believe the highest cost producer in the business has the rosiest outlook.

Sorry to confuse you about the metrics in the business. Just count cars in the T2 parking lot. That's the way Wall Street looks at things.

I guess SWA with over 400 aircraft isn't a real airline either.

Just one coherent argument would be nice.

:D

You Westjet slaggers are just full of it.
You are AC champions, when that is demonstrably one of the most mediocre (that's generous) airlines in the developed world, in almost every respect. (I do like many of the Maple Lounges)
WJ ain't fancy but the people there get the job done, with acumen and manners. Within Canada I'll chose it every time because as a paying customer I prefer to be treated with respect. Not with contempt. I also like WJ's skeds, the 700 and 800s, the live TV.
Recently I had the great misfortune of flying AC's YYZ-HGK-YYZ, in C class. The crew was rude to passengers and to ground crew in HGK. The purser dropped fruit on the galley floor and put it back in the basket, for the unsuspecting to eat. He also shoved past me to use a washroom. Ahead of passengers!
Not nice at all.
Would NEVER happen on CX, which is what I flew the last time.

[QUOTE=parnel]

[QUOTE]Who's hitting on all cylinders now?

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/investor/documents/JPMorgan-06.pdf
page 27.

So lets see now...ACE will add 98 RJ's in the NA market betwen 2005 and 2007. Do you really think Wetjet can compete with that volume plus efficent planes with J seats and IFE and 30% lower labour costs at Jazz.
You also forgot to note that Jazz is now the 2nd biggest airline in Canada while WJA is a distant third. And Jazz is effectively a five year old Company.

HMY is now losing big money and guess where they will buy market share to stay alive for awhile....shades of Jetsgo.


That's after 6 months of crappy yields dealing with Leblanc's folly. Do you really think it's not a coincidence that the worst 6 months of WJ's history since '97 happened to be when Jetsgo was on it's last legs? Make no mistake about it, Jetsgo hurt AC as well, but no where near the impact on WJA.

And there has not been a remarkable recovery in WetJet profits since Leblanc went down...another Leblanc is waitning in the wings BTW.

If WJ's timing was lucky, what was wrong with the timing of Astoria, Intair, Jetsgo, Nationair, Royal, C3000, Roots, VistaJet, CanJet 1 etc etc etc? Why is it that 97% of startups fail in North America in the first 15 months?

It was simply luck, but I did say that wetjet would stick around and be a regional minor competitor in the big ACE picture.


I don't think you'll find too many people who believe the highest cost producer in the business has the rosiest outlook.

Funny thing that on page 27 ACE was ahead of SWA and all other major US carriers in EBITDAR. WJA is going to suffer major downturns to EBITDAR with AC's new regional fleet and your own expansion plans. You simply cannot keep your margins up with that kind of new competition and new costs yo are introducing. ACE has, in Jazz, a major competitor that will soon eat your lunch and AC mainline will be even more efficient with new planes, many more N/A flights and even more foreign destinations to connect to thus cutting off some of WS's feed to other carriers.


Sorry to confuse you about the metrics in the business. Just count cars in the T2 parking lot. That's the way Wall Street looks at things.
I think my macro view is pretty damn accurate......I don't need to be a spread sheet jockey to understand business metrics.

I guess SWA with over 400 aircraft isn't a real airline either.

And they lost money operationally last year........all with one trick pony planes...look at page 27 again and see where their EBITDAR is now that others have figured out how to compete against them. They are no longer the model to emulate.

Just one coherent argument would be nice.

We are all waiting for that from you.

You Westjet slaggers are just full of it.
You are AC champions, when that is demonstrably one of the most mediocre (that's generous) airlines in the developed world, in almost every respect. (I do like many of the Maple Lounges)
WJ ain't fancy but the people there get the job done, with acumen and manners. Within Canada I'll chose it every time because as a paying customer I prefer to be treated with respect. Not with contempt. I also like WJ's skeds, the 700 and 800s, the live TV.
Recently I had the great misfortune of flying AC's YYZ-HGK-YYZ, in C class. The crew was rude to passengers and to ground crew in HGK. The purser dropped fruit on the galley floor and put it back in the basket, for the unsuspecting to eat. He also shoved past me to use a washroom. Ahead of passengers!
Not nice at all.
Would NEVER happen on CX, which is what I flew the last time.

Another drop in guest from the netherworld of WJA employees. :rolleyes: I wonder what his other handle is.

Another drop in guest from the netherworld of WJA employees. :rolleyes: I wonder what his other handle is.

Too funny.
Parnel, I am not a West Jet employee. I don't even know any West Jet workers. I am, however, a fff (fairly frequent flier).
In fact I'm on an SAS flight at the moment. We are over Norway, heading for CPH.
I found this site after booking my flight to Stockholm. I began with the SAS thread and very recently came upon the Westjet one.
Living in West Canada, I have had plenty of opportunities to chose between WJ and AC.
None of my contemporaries--none--prefer AC.
People are voting with their feet.
AC needs to fix its CULTURE, as much as it needs new metal.

People are voting with their feet.


Your correct, that's why for the last 23 consecutive months AC planes have been fuller than the same month the year before. If people are voting with their feet, they seem to be choosing AC more not less.

[QUOTE]None of my contemporaries--none--prefer AC.
You should spend time at YYC or YEG or YVR and se ehow many people are avoiding AC..yes they have an undeserved(these days) reputation out there but all their flights are full. I take that as a vote of confidence



AC needs to fix its CULTURE, as much as it needs new metal.

The culture has changed,just not totally...and the metal change is underway, but please don't come on here with half baked crap.

[QUOTE=Coffeebean][QUOTE=parnel]



So lets see now...ACE will add 98 RJ's in the NA market betwen 2005 and 2007. Do you really think Wetjet can compete with that volume plus efficent planes with J seats and IFE and 30% lower labour costs at Jazz.
You also forgot to note that Jazz is now the 2nd biggest airline in Canada while WJA is a distant third. And Jazz is effectively a five year old Company.

HMY is now losing big money and guess where they will buy market share to stay alive for awhile....shades of Jetsgo.




And there has not been a remarkable recovery in WetJet profits since Leblanc went down...another Leblanc is waitning in the wings BTW.



It was simply luck, but I did say that wetjet would stick around and be a regional minor competitor in the big ACE picture.




Funny thing that on page 27 ACE was ahead of SWA and all other major US carriers in EBITDAR. WJA is going to suffer major downturns to EBITDAR with AC's new regional fleet and your own expansion plans. You simply cannot keep your margins up with that kind of new competition and new costs yo are introducing. ACE has, in Jazz, a major competitor that will soon eat your lunch and AC mainline will be even more efficient with new planes, many more N/A flights and even more foreign destinations to connect to thus cutting off some of WS's feed to other carriers.



I think my macro view is pretty damn accurate......I don't need to be a spread sheet jockey to understand business metrics.



And they lost money operationally last year........all with one trick pony planes...look at page 27 again and see where their EBITDAR is now that others have figured out how to compete against them. They are no longer the model to emulate.



We are all waiting for that from you.

I won't disagree with you on Harmony. They made a huge strategic, ego driven mistake a month ago, and they'll pay for it.

WJ's ebitdar was hammered by Jetsgo in the first 6 months of last year. Don't you get it? Apparently not. The only two quarterly losses the company has incurred were when Jetsgo was on its last legs. Coincidence? Nope.

You know of any investor that wants to lose $10m a month offering SG types of fares with a fleet 1/3 the size of WJ? Where would this airline locate? Toronto? What routes? What niche? It's all been filled in hte past year.

The legacy of Leblanc is that he showed investors how much it costs to run an airline, the consequences of trying to do in 2 years what took WJ 6-7 years, and how much you can lose a day. I don't think we'll see any start ups of consequence unless oil drops and holds around $30.

Jazz bigger than WJA? On what basis? More airplanes? Does that mean that a medium pizza sliced 12 ways is bigger than a medium pizza sliced 6 ways?

Airlines produce ASM's. Nothing more, nothing less. WJA produced 900m asms in Feb, Jazz produced 366m asms.

Jazz, with the highest unit costs airplane on the planet, with 26 cent casm, more frequency, but they've had more frequency than WJ for ten years, is going to beat up WJ? Are you serious? Do you see Ryanair, Gol, SWA quaking in their boots about RJ / turboprop airlines offering low fares? Didn't Indy Air teach you anything?

No recovery since Leblanc failed? How about the 2nd highest operating margins in North America? Margins 3-4x higher than ACE's over the same period.

All those airplanes having to be filled with the likes of $199 walkup fares from YVR-HNL. High costs, low fares = bleeding red ink.

WJ's costs have been 40% or lower than ACE for 10 years. That isn't going to change anytime soon.

You are approaching incoherent, Francis.....

;) ;)

[QUOTE=parnel][QUOTE=Coffeebean]

[QUOTE]WJ's costs have been 40% or lower than ACE for 10 years. That isn't going to change anytime soon.

Yep and disney's fantasy land is real world stuff.

You are approaching incoherent, Francis....

I'm not a talking mule :rolleyes: .

[QUOTE=parnel][QUOTE=Coffeebean]

You are approaching incoherent, Francis.....

;) ;)

Thanks for that CB. It all makes sense now.

[QUOTE=Coffeebean][QUOTE=parnel]

Thanks for that CB. It all makes sense now.

If you think parnel is Francis,(whoever Francis is) the incoherent stuff is yours.
CB hasn't a clue who anyone is here..........his speedo is too tight to think through that

[QUOTE=parnel][QUOTE=Coffeebean]

I won't disagree with you on Harmony. They made a huge strategic, ego driven mistake a month ago, and they'll pay for it...



Now that's hilarious, coming from the corner of the most ego driven airline in the business. It would be very illuminating to see Clive's succession plan...who's left?

[QUOTE=greentree] The culture has changed,just not totally...and the metal change is underway, but please don't come on here with half baked crap.


Yes, how dare I, a mere customer, who makes choices based on price, convenience, innovation and value, and who therefore avoids AC whenever possible, and prefers WJ instead.
Shame on customers like me who notice the difference between two airlines...Shame!

[QUOTE=parnel]


Yes, how dare I, a mere customer, who makes choices based on price, convenience, innovation and value, and who therefore avoids AC whenever possible, and prefers WJ instead.
Shame on customers like me who notice the difference between two airlines...Shame!

Have fun in the middle seat of a regional airline with no upgrade possibilities unless one goes from middle seat to aisle or exit door. ;)

Convenience...almost evey location in NA has more AC flights than wetjet
Innovation.....AC has a very good FF program and passes and J class and soon new long haul planes to go along with the new regional jets now arriving
Value.....show us the value proposition when you can't get flights when you need them and an ever changing route map.....there's more if you like

[QUOTE=parnel]


Yes, how dare I, a mere customer, who makes choices based on price, convenience, innovation and value, and who therefore avoids AC whenever possible, and prefers WJ instead...!

If you think WS has an edge over AC in price, convenience and value you better check fares and schedules a little more closely. As to innovation, WS basically took the Southwest model and has followed Jetblue with Live TV etc. If anything AC has been the more innovative lately with passes, even livery. But don't let the facts interfere with your rant :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=greentree]

Have fun in the middle seat of a regional airline with no upgrade possibilities unless one goes from middle seat to aisle or exit door. ;)

Convenience...almost evey location in NA has more AC flights than wetjet
Innovation.....AC has a very good FF program and passes and J class and soon new long haul planes to go along with the new regional jets now arriving
Value.....show us the value proposition when you can't get flights when you need them and an ever changing route map.....there's more if you like


Have you ever stopped to think that all the advantages AC posesses today are exactly the same advantages AC had 10 years ago?

Good FF program
J Class
New long haul planes - A330/A340
New short haul planes 319's and CRJ's
Tons of cash in the bank
More frequency than anyone

Where did it get them before?

That's when WJA had 2 airplanes. Now they have 60 and the newest fleet in North America. They are only going to get bigger.

What's changed? Certainly not the delta in cost structure.... ;)

[QUOTE=parnel]


[QUOTE]Have you ever stopped to think that all the advantages AC posesses today are exactly the same advantages AC had 10 years ago?

And ten years ago they had real competition not the low ball tactics of WS trying to steal market share on certain routes they can't make money on. The cost sturcture is going up with new investments in booking engines,new planes and labour cost increases among the failed routes.

Good FF program
J Class
New long haul planes - A330/A340
New short haul planes 319's and CRJ's
Tons of cash in the bank
More frequency than anyone

Where did it get them before?

They still have the lions share of domestic and cross border traffic and after years of decline their numbers are growing.

That's when WJA had 2 airplanes. Now they have 60 and the newest fleet in North America. They are only going to get bigger.

We'll see what happens if Wetjet tries to really take on AC in major markets instead of just offering low ball fares to build market share.


What's changed? Certainly not the delta in cost structure.... ;)

ACE is trending around $1.25 billion (supported by analysts) in profit this year. Not bad for such a high cost operation.

[QUOTE=Coffeebean][QUOTE=parnel]




And ten years ago they had real competition not the low ball tactics of WS trying to steal market share on certain routes they can't make money on. The cost sturcture is going up with new investments in booking engines,new planes and labour cost increases among the failed routes.



They still have the lions share of domestic and cross border traffic and after years of decline their numbers are growing.



We'll see what happens if Wetjet tries to really take on AC in major markets instead of just offering low ball fares to build market share.




ACE is trending around $1.25 billion (supported by analysts) in profit this year. Not bad for such a high cost operation.

Stealing marketshare with double digit profit margins, as AC lost, literally, billions...... ;)

Take a look at cost structure net of fuel. It's declined. ;)

What's growing? Bums in seats or profit? ;) I'll bet there are lots of bums in those HNL-YVR walk up $199 fares.

Profit....oh yes, earnings before taxes, interest, depreciation, amortization and rent.

I suppose you tell all your friends how well you are doing by telling them your take home pay, but excluding things like your rent, your mortgage, your car payment, interest on various loans and depreciation on your assets, taxes etc etc. Wow. It sure looks like you make lots of money, but try convincing your bank, your car finance company and your landlord that you don't plan to make those payments and see what happens.

EBITDAR is a BS number. Even if you like it, WJ's is a quantum higher than AC's even by AC's own calculations.

Have you considered what WJA's ebitdar will look like in 2006? ;) How about pure operating profit, without a bunch of one time sales of assets to prop the numbers up?

:D :D

[QUOTE=parnel][QUOTE=Coffeebean]

Have you considered what WJA's ebitdar will look like in 2006? ;) How about pure operating profit, without a bunch of one time sales of assets to prop the numbers up?

:D :D

If you would read any anlaysts reports carefully you would note that profit forecasts this year are exclusive of any asset unlocking.

[QUOTE=Coffeebean][QUOTE=parnel]

If you would read any anlaysts reports carefully you would note that profit forecasts this year are exclusive of any asset unlocking.


If you insist on playing with EBITDAR, I'll bite. I think they are BS numbers, but if you like 'em, here they are.

ACE's EBITDAR since exiting CCAA / Chapter 11 on Sept 30 2004 is 16.3%. WestJet's over the same period is 18.9%.


ACE's running EBITDAR since CCAA / Chapter 11 exit was 13.1% after 1 quarter, 12.9% after 2 quarters, 15.2% after 3 quarters, 17.2% after 4 quarters and dropped to 16.3% through the period after reporting the worst post exit EBITDAR number of 12.45% in 4Q 2005.

WestJet's running EBITDAR since ACE's CCAA / Chapter 11 exit was 9.7% after 1 quarter, 11.9% after 2 quarters, 14.4% after 3 quarters, 18.9% after 4 quarters and and 18.9% through the period after a 19% EBITDAR in 4Q 2005, ( a little over 50% higher than ACE's EBITDAR in the same period).

What's interesting is that WJ's EBITDAR has climbed nicely without retreat over the period, (which incorporates Leblancs folly), and ACE's EBITDAR moved up, but then suffered a sharp set back in the latest quarter.

Now, tell us all again, who's firing on all cylinders now?

;) ;)

[QUOTE=Coffeebean][QUOTE=parnel]




And ten years ago they had real competition not the low ball tactics of WS trying to steal market share on certain routes they can't make money on. The cost sturcture is going up with new investments in booking engines,new planes and labour cost increases among the failed routes.



They still have the lions share of domestic and cross border traffic and after years of decline their numbers are growing.



We'll see what happens if Wetjet tries to really take on AC in major markets instead of just offering low ball fares to build market share.




ACE is trending around $1.25 billion (supported by analysts) in profit this year. Not bad for such a high cost operation.

Only $1.25 billion in EBITDAR in 2006? ACE produced $1.66b in EBITDAR in 2005. Check the numbers for yourself.

That sounds like a rough year for ACE. That's about a 25% drop year over year EBITDAR. That'll keep the stock up.......

BTW, even with Leblanc screwing the market for half the year, WJA's 2005 EBITDAR was 20.7% vs 17% at ACE.

More importantly, WJA's EBITDAR has been trending northwards since post Leblanc, ACE's has been trending south.

Parnel, stay away from the numbers. They illustrate your ignorance of the business more than usual. ;)

Where's the website?

Where's the website?

Exactly where it was publicly reported 2 years ago. :D

[QUOTE=parnel][QUOTE=Coffeebean]

Now, tell us all again, who's firing on all cylinders now?

;) ;)

ACE ACE and ACE

[QUOTE=Coffeebean][QUOTE=parnel]

ACE ACE and ACE

Except WJA's EBITDAR grew from 9.71% in 4Q 2004 to 19% in 4Q in 2005, and ACE's dropped from 13.1% to 12.4% in the same period.

Poking holes in your arguments is getting easier and easier and easier....... ;)

[QUOTE=parnel][QUOTE=Coffeebean]

Except WJA's EBITDAR grew from 9.71% in 4Q 2004 to 19% in 4Q in 2005, and ACE's dropped from 13.1% to 12.4% in the same period.

Poking holes in your arguments is getting easier and easier and easier....... ;)

ACE EBITDAR will grow year over year and WJA will never continue those numbers as they continue to grow. My strong guess, from reading analysts reports, is that this year WJA will be under 15%. The strong market and competition that ACE provides is just starting domestically and transborder.
WJA should be worried.....ACE has even more new products up their sleeve while your twiddle your thumbs on asm/casm/prasm and spasm.Spasm being your strongest suite :D

Exactly where it was publicly reported 2 years ago.

Air Canada's employee website? :D

With tens of thousands of ex-employees able to view it................

No, this is the website WS used in their defense, that the information from the employee website could be found on a publicly available website on the Internet.

In any event, I'm now going to leave Mr. Bean to argue CASM with himself, as he has resorted to personal attacks once again.

This thread is about the WestJet CFO leaving the company, not a discussion about other posters on this forum. Please stay on topic.

(I owe a poster or two an explanation as to where their posts disappeared to, but will get to that when I get back from some meetings.)

FewMiles..
Moderator, WestJet forum