http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1141037290906&col=968705923364&call_page=TS_Business&call_pageid=968350072197&call_pagepath=Business/News

CALGARY — WestJet Airlines Ltd. said Monday its pilots have accepted a three-year agreement on pay and working conditions.

Does anyone have any details on what was agreed to?

Does anyone have any details on what was agreed to?
From the discussion over on AEF, I do not think that many of the pilots know what they agreed to. There is a lot of mis-conception about how it all will work to be 'salary neutral' as Clive has stated.

From the discussion over on AEF, I do not think that many of the pilots know what they agreed to. There is a lot of mis-conception about how it all will work to be 'salary neutral' as Clive has stated.

exAC

So tell us then. How does it work?

From the discussion over on AEF, I do not think that many of the pilots know what they agreed to. There is a lot of mis-conception about how it all will work to be 'salary neutral' as Clive has stated.

I don't think a certain "side" wants to understand what the other agreed to. ;)

I don't think a certain "side" wants to understand what the other agreed to. ;)

So do you understand it? I've read all the threads on it on AEF and have refrained from any comment because I know how any questions from AC are taken. It looks like a great deal for WS pilot's and good for them.

I would honestly like to understand how it is revenue neutral. Pilot's have commented that their pay will double, they will be home more but monthly flying hours have increased, and they now have something akin to "virtual" bases so less commuting, but pairings are still being done from YYC.

If it is revenue neutral that is great for WS and it's pilot's. It would just be nice to have a straightforward answer, because at some point there are going to be the same questions coming from the analyst's and shareholders who want to know that their investments aren't going to be affected negatively.

It is also great for the other employee's (non-pilot's) at WS, as I'm sure they will get just as wonderful a deal from management in their negotiations. Interesting to see how those deals will be revenue neutral.

Fire away, I'm sure it is only the AC folks that are interested in understanding how it is all revenue neutral, those pesky analyst's and investors will take Clive word for it. :rolleyes:

I see what you're saying now. I am not a pilot so I cannot comment on the details but I too am curious to know where the deal is cost neutral.

I see what you're saying now. I am not a pilot so I cannot comment on the details but I too am curious to know where the deal is cost neutral.
The best explanation that I have heard is that Clive spoke of "Salary Neutral". This as opposed to "Cost Neutral" etc.

Base salary is going up 6% for a 6% increase in flying hours, somewhat neutral IF all of the extra hours are flown. However, there are many other parts that are clearly an increase in cost such as time credits for training, increased crew rest rules, online automated shift trading, etc.

The difference is that these are not likely reported under the "Salary" item in the reports.

The real big difference is in the treatment of options.

The options were 'given' as X number of options per $10,000 or $50,000 or $100,000. The number of options was dependent upon the share price at option time.

Now a pilot (and presumably the executives who get options also) will be able to choose cash instead of options for at least 75% of the grant.

The kicker here is that WestJet must now find the cash to pay this as opposed to granting a piece of paper which allows shares to be purchased at a reduced rate which gave revenue to the company. The shares were issued from Treasury.

New details don't sound revenue/cost neutral to me, but hey I'm no aviation analyst:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1141944645467&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851

New details don't sound revenue/cost neutral to me, but hey I'm no aviation analyst:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1141944645467&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851

I skimmed the story and lost count of the inaccuracies. Doesn't the Star employee a fact checker?

:rolleyes:

New details don't sound revenue/cost neutral to me, but hey I'm no aviation analyst:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1141944645467&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851

Don't worry their resident data thief will put some asm/casm/PMS stuff out and cover off any discrepencies...spread sheet jockeys can do anything :D

I skimmed the story and lost count of the inaccuracies. Doesn't the Star employee a fact checker?

:rolleyes:

So what details are inaccurate?

I skimmed the story and lost count of the inaccuracies. Doesn't the Star employee a fact checker?

:rolleyes:

I must agree with you, look in that first paragraph. Everyone knows Jazz is Canada's 2nd largest airline, not WS!

Can't believe Clive actually made pilots train in the simulator on their own time! Shades of Jetsgo :eek:

[QUOTE]I must agree with you, look in that first paragraph. Everyone knows Jazz is Canada's 2nd largest airline, not WS!

True true true


Can't believe Clive actually made pilots train in the simulator on their own time! Shades of Jetsgo :eek:

he offered them more shares at $20 though

Can't believe Clive actually made pilots train in the simulator on their own time! Shades of Jetsgo :eek:

Air Canada pilots have to train in the sumulator on their own time.

I must agree with you, look in that first paragraph. Everyone knows Jazz is Canada's 2nd largest airline, not WS!

Can't believe Clive actually made pilots train in the simulator on their own time! Shades of Jetsgo :eek:


Clive did no such thing. It was us, the original pilots who decided that training would be included in the maximum 18 days a month we worked. If you went over the 18 days, you were paid at time and a half. The new agreement puts a credit hour value on the training.

I believe that I heard that ACE pilots came up with something similar when they re-did their WAWCON during CCAA.

Shades of Jetsgo. What a goofy thing to say. Those chaps had to pay, in advance, $30,000 for their training. WS has never asked anyone to pay for training. Another thing, if a new pilot wasn't making the grade in sim and had to be let go, it was done without regard for the cost of the training already invested.

Air Canada pilots have to train in the sumulator on their own time.

Not true..they are paid a very good salary every year and that salary includes them keeping up with their trade and the regs surrounding it.

What a crock...another union thug type of thinking.

Air Canada pilots have to train in the sumulator on their own time.[/QUOTE


[QUOTE=parnel]Not true..they are paid a very good salary every year and that salary includes them keeping up with their trade and the regs surrounding it.

What a crock...another union thug type of thinking.

Parnel: Are you sure of your facts?

[QUOTE=back seat]Air Canada pilots have to train in the sumulator on their own time.[/QUOTE




Parnel: Are you sure of your facts?

Of course I am....they are paid a "salary" to fly 80 hours a month and be up to speed with regs and safety issues and other elements of their employment contract. Why do you ask?

[QUOTE=airbus320]

Of course I am....they are paid a "salary" to fly 80 hours a month and be up to speed with regs and safety issues and other elements of their employment contract. Why do you ask?

Parnel: AC pilots are not paid a salary.

They are paid hourly. Basically from the time the parking brake is released to when the parking brake is applied.

They used to get paid for their bi-annual simulator training, plus their Annual Recurrent Training and in CCAA they lost that.

This is no difference to an hourly employee at ANY industry being told to plan for free days back at the office.

[QUOTE=parnel]

Parnel: AC pilots are not paid a salary.

They are paid hourly. Basically from the time the parking brake is released to when the parking brake is applied.

They used to get paid for their bi-annual simulator training, plus their Annual Recurrent Training and in CCAA they lost that.

This is no difference to an hourly employee at ANY industry being told to plan for free days back at the office.


And it's an all inclusive wage for flying 80 hours a month. My point is that they have a designation and its up to them to keep it up. Their hourly wage is pretty damn nice for the hours worked......I know, I know they have to sleep in hotels now and then. :eek:
Other rprofessionals have the same situation.
Of course they could turf their union and become real staff.

And it's an all inclusive wage for flying 80 hours a month. My point is that they have a designation and its up to them to keep it up. Their hourly wage is pretty damn nice for the hours worked......I know, I know they have to sleep in hotels now and then. :eek:
Other rprofessionals have the same situation.
Of course they could turf their union and become real staff.

Parnel, I am not going to answer this for you, but for others that might be confused by your "mis-information". Yes they "fly" 80 hours a month, but what does that mean? Can a pilot get their 80 hours in a two week period? A very few can, but most end up working 16 - 20 days in a month. A 10 hour work day can translate into only 5 hours of flying work, the rest spent on the ground waiting.

I also don't think the amount of the wage means anything, or does the higher the wage means the more the company owns of you? The more your paid means the more of your personal life you don't have.

I really don't understand how the union gets involved here as well. Is this a case of lets throw something up on the wall and see what sticks.

Carry on your rant. I'm off to enjoy my weekend, good thing my company doesn't believe in owning a person because of the wage we are paid.

[QUOTE]Parnel, I am not going to answer this for you, but for others that might be confused by your "mis-information". Yes they "fly" 80 hours a month, but what does that mean? Can a pilot get their 80 hours in a two week period? A very few can, but most end up working 16 - 20 days in a month. A 10 hour work day can translate into only 5 hours of flying work, the rest spent on the ground waiting.

Still no sympathy emanating from this quarter..they can make career changes anytime as there are many pilots who would kill for their jobs at AC.....not so sure about Wetjet though.

I also don't think the amount of the wage means anything, or does the higher the wage means the more the company owns of you? The more your paid means the more of your personal life you don't have.

Do you think accountants and lawyers get company time off to improve or maintain their skills..what about executive MBA students who do it mostly on weekends. I could go on with engineers, teachers etc. etc.


I really don't understand how the union gets involved here as well. Is this a case of lets throw something up on the wall and see what sticks.
Why..the union makes the deals for them.

Carry on your rant. I'm off to enjoy my weekend, good thing my company doesn't believe in owning a person because of the wage we are paid.

Its no rant..facts are facts;pilots make pretty damn good money and most of them have other businesses as well due to spare time. I know a few and they don't whine about their lifestyles, believe me.

[QUOTE=parnel]

Parnel: AC pilots are not paid a salary.

They are paid hourly. Basically from the time the parking brake is released to when the parking brake is applied.


Do they get paid any more if that 5 hour YYZ-LAX flight takes 6 hours because of the strong headwinds lately? Or conversely, if the return flight takes 4 hours instead of 4.5, do they get docked the time? I suspect if they did get docked the half hour, they would just slow the plane down in the name of "fuel economy". Or is it "the trip pays $xx"?

[QUOTE=back seat]

Do they get paid any more if that 5 hour YYZ-LAX flight takes 6 hours because of the strong headwinds lately? Or conversely, if the return flight takes 4 hours instead of 4.5, do they get docked the time? I suspect if they did get docked the half hour, they would just slow the plane down in the name of "fuel economy". Or is it "the trip pays $xx"?

Pilots are paid based on the flight schedule or actual time, which ever is more.

In the good old days:

A pilots schedule:

Point A-B Depart 6:00 Arrive 8:00
Point B-A Depart 9:00 Arrive 11:00

Because of headwinds arrival at point B arrives :15 late, because of tailwinds arrival back point A is :15 ahead of schedule.
Crew would get :15 of overtime even if the got home early. That was called sched or better. Not sure what things are like these days.

Clive did no such thing. It was us, the original pilots who decided that training would be included in the maximum 18 days a month we worked...

OK, I stand corrected. But basically you've just confirmed what many of us have been arguing: WS original "culture" is under threat from newer employees who rightly aren't satisfied with the current renumeration. While original employees may have made out well, not so for the new hires required to keep up that pell-mell growth. Doesn't bode well for cost containment.

Do pilots have a pension plan yet?

OK, I stand corrected. But basically you've just confirmed what many of us have been arguing: WS original "culture" is under threat from newer employees who rightly aren't satisfied with the current renumeration. While original employees may have made out well, not so for the new hires required to keep up that pell-mell growth. Doesn't bode well for cost containment.

No. This has nothing to do with corporate culture (though I just knew you would try to paint it the most negative of lights). It has everything to do with a safety culture.

Over the years we have added more and more days of ground training for safety initiatives WS has undertaken. RNP approaches, expanded CRM, ETOPS, etc. It all adds up to more days in the class room.

Credit for those days is, IMO, is neccesary because coupled with more sim time, has required pilots to spend more time training than ever before.

That bodes well for a safe operation.