Rather than have posters muddy up all kinds of threads in other forums about what a great airline WS is, I've created this little space where hopefully they will post and debate to their hearts content and not create multipage topics elesewhere :)

Rather than have posters muddy up all kinds of threads in other forums about what a great airline WS is, I've created this little space where hopefully they will post and debate to their hearts content and not create multipage topics elesewhere :)

Nobody said the worlds greatest, but WJ has had the second highest profit margins of all stand alone airlines in North America over the past 6 months.

You can never go wrong with that sort of record.

;)

Translation: and you never will go wrong so long as you've had that record in the past, because nothing ever changes.

Just ask the landline telephone companies.

Nobody said the worlds greatest, but WJ has had the second highest profit margins of all stand alone airlines in North America over the past 6 months.

You can never go wrong with that sort of record.

;)
Of course not.

:rolleyes:

Nobody said the worlds greatest, but WJ has had the second highest profit margins of all stand alone airlines in North America over the past 6 months.

You can never go wrong with that sort of record.

;)

More importantly to me is that ACE's stock is up over 50% from issue in Sept.2004 and WS stock is down around 50% from its 2004 high. Rope a dope actions have caught another one :D

More importantly to me is that ACE's stock is up over 50% from issue in Sept.2004 and WS stock is down around 50% from its 2004 high. Rope a dope actions have caught another one :D


So what your saying is that stock price is a function of profitability? :rolleyes:

You probably did real well in the dot.com meltdown with infinite eps. All hype, but no beef.

So what your saying is that stock price is a function of profitability? :rolleyes:

You probably did real well in the dot.com meltdown with infinite eps. All hype, but no beef.

Again attempting to play "rope a dope" and answering a question or fact with another question or so called fact. Just explain in your simplified logic of casp and asp and BS how it all plays out that ACE can grow their stock while WS lingers. It appears to me that Clive and his minions have lied to, stiffed the analysts, and are now paying the price.

Again attempting to play "rope a dope" and answering a question or fact with another question or so called fact. Just explain in your simplified logic of casp and asp and BS how it all plays out that ACE can grow their stock while WS lingers. It appears to me that Clive and his minions have lied to, stiffed the analysts, and are now paying the price.

The fact is that Westjet has gone from a high and is now having trouble showing continued growth and profitability at a level that would justify their share price, a rather high P/E ratio compared to AC. Doesn't mean Westjet isn't profitable or growing and could be termed quite successful, just not successful enough compared to the stock price. On the other hand, AC has gone from essentially nothing, due to restructuring, to better than anticipated performance with a relatively low P/E ratio in general, not just compared to Westjet. So any reasonable amount of success will likely grow AC's share price.

Given the current short-term obsession in the stock market, neither price accurately reflects the long-term viability of the respective companies.

The fact is that Westjet has gone from a high and is now having trouble showing continued growth and profitability at a level that would justify their share price, a rather high P/E ratio compared to AC. Doesn't mean Westjet isn't profitable or growing and could be termed quite successful, just not successful enough compared to the stock price. On the other hand, AC has gone from essentially nothing, due to restructuring, to better than anticipated performance with a relatively low P/E ratio in general, not just compared to Westjet. So any reasonable amount of success will likely grow AC's share price.

Given the current short-term obsession in the stock market, neither price accurately reflects the long-term viability of the respective companies.

PE multiples for growth airlines are consistently 20 to 25x earnings.

WJ is one of only 2 growth airlines in North America, and of a few in the world, earning a profit.

Anyway you cut it, WJ remains a growth airline.

Meanwhile, ACE is basically the same as it's always been. A high cost, low fare carrier that makes a bit in 2Q, quite a bit in 3Q, and gives most, if not all of it back in the following 4Q and 1Q.

The only thing that makes it interesting is the tie in with the ongoing sale of asssets, which props up the share price.

Once the assets are gone, then what?

..Once the assets are gone, then what?

Nice try O disingenuous one. You know full well that ACE maintains a controlling interest in the spinoffs, so they reap the rewards when the subsidiaries do well. Once the new widebodies and B scale employees come online costs will fall further. Which way to WS costs have to go?

WS costs will drop so that the spread between WS costs and AC costs remains about the same as they've always been.

Nothing ever increases WS costs, haven't you heard?

What's happened before, will always happen again.

You can put CB's money on it.

;)

[QUOTE]PE multiples for growth airlines are consistently 20 to 25x earnings.

WJ is one of only 2 growth airlines in North America, and of a few in the world, earning a profit.


A profit so miniscule the stock is slowly dropping and is probably being propped up on strategic buying by Clive and his minions. The analysts no longer trust or like the stock.

Anyway you cut it, WJ remains a growth airline.

Add a route here drop a route there....some growth. Meanwhile ac is adding several new 777's next year and will increase seats for sale by several thousand a day by the end of the year.


Meanwhile, ACE is basically the same as it's always been. A high cost, low fare carrier that makes a bit in 2Q, quite a bit in 3Q, and gives most, if not all of it back in the following 4Q and 1Q.

First year out of CCAA and they made money;lots of new routes and new metal coming on line............give me a break and tell me I'm wrong when the stock hits $50 in the next year or so.

The only thing that makes it interesting is the tie in with the ongoing sale of asssets, which props up the share price.

Unlocking value is not selling assets. The stuff spun out is strictly doen to leave ACE in full control and let the market put higher multiples on the value of ACE. Pretty dumb, huh.

Once the assets are gone, then what?

The only asset that will be totally spun out is Aeroplan in about five years I believe and only after they sign long term agreem ents with ACE to be the exclusive buyer of seats and after Ac has full control of the FF program.
Selling off a marketing list for billons is pretty dumb I'm sure you'll agree :rolleyes:

Profit margin, oh wise one.

With $10b in revenues, one would hope that ACE's overall profit would be higher than WJ's with about $1.4b in revenues.

However, from July 1 05 to March 31 06, there is a very good chance WJ's overall operatng profit including interest, on a fraction of revenues, will exceed ACE's.

WJ is the only airline in North America of any consequence to show it can operate profitably with oil around $70 a bbl. ;)

Profit margin, oh wise one.

With $10b in revenues, one would hope that ACE's overall profit would be higher than WJ's with about $1.4b in revenues.

However, from July 1 05 to March 31 06, there is a very good chance WJ's overall operatng profit including interest, on a fraction of revenues, will exceed ACE's.

WJ is the only airline in North America of any consequence to show it can operate profitably with oil around $70 a bbl. ;)


BS, ACE makes money and big money in two Q's and you again pick their slow ones...........rope a dope delux. Its funny that on a fiscal year basis AC made 10 times WS profits and had ten times the revenues..........you really do wear those speedos too tight. :rolleyes:.........if in fact you even wear them as you say......I have my doubts

BS, ACE makes money and big money in two Q's and you again pick their slow ones...........rope a dope delux. Its funny that on a fiscal year basis AC made 10 times WS profits and had ten times the revenues..........you really do wear those speedos too tight. :rolleyes:.........if in fact you even wear them as you say......I have my doubts


How much of that profit was from a one time sale of assets?

The third quarter is a slow quarter? Really?

;)

[QUOTE]How much of that profit was from a one time sale of assets?

You're a financial genius........look it up and tell us please and also tell us how much was spent on restructuring charges from CCAA as well.


The third quarter is a slow quarter? Really?

Did I say that or did I say you were picking specific dates when companies are really judged on 12 months performance. This discussion with you is not worthy of any intellectual capital as you cannot argue with facts presented to you. Its always a rope a dope approach trying to sucker someone into your corner with abject and meaningless stats. You might be the greatest spread sheet jockey ever but you know diddly squat about the overall business approach and model.
BTW a major article I just read in Forbes suggests the major alliance carriers will formally merge in the not too distant future as american legislators are coming around to allowing these to happen. Then LH, UA and AC can merge formally.........and we'll see then about the one trick pony.

Hey, isn't there an Apologist Forum for those who operate under the delusion that ACE/AC/Jazz/Zip/GypTrip or whatever they call themselves today can backslap to their hearts' content? Why, then, come down here to WestJet WinnerLand and bother those who appreciate the value of a dollar, great friendly and on-time service? :confused:

Hey PE, maybe if virtual reality C.B. didn't constantly intrude into unrelated threads (new route launches, let's say) with endless dissertations on CASM and why WS' costs are so low on the AE board, you wouldn't find the apologists here in "Winnerland" :D

BTW, I do feel for you having lost CO service out of YEG. I flew them back SJU-EWR-YYZ on Friday, and you're quite right that there's nothing like meals at mealtime, and the sundaes were fantastic. I just hope these services survive the upcoming Ch. 11 filing someone (likely our "I'm just a working stiff") was talking about a week or so back.

Simon

Hey, isn't there an Apologist Forum for those who operate under the delusion that ACE/AC/Jazz/Zip/GypTrip or whatever they call themselves today can backslap to their hearts' content? Why, then, come down here to WestJet WinnerLand and bother those who appreciate the value of a dollar, great friendly and on-time service? :confused:

Ah PE too bad they don't fly to the US where you want them to go;and too bad thye don't have a FF program or J class seats..............its all BS IOW's

we're also here bcause CBB wants us teach him about real numbers in nthe industry. ;)

Ah PE too bad they don't fly to the US where you want them to go;and too bad thye don't have a FF program or J class seats..............its all BS IOW's

we're also here bcause CBB wants us teach him about real numbers in nthe industry. ;)

I fly them in Canada non-stop whenever possible. I have AirMiles.

Can't compare West Jet to AC as there are too many variables. Westjet was very profitable when they stuck to their domestic operations but once they go the expansion virus and went off to the US they are competing with the BIG BOYS and have started losing money. Comparing a Full Sevice airline to a No Service airline is not reasonable.

Can't compare West Jet to AC as there are too many variables. Westjet was very profitable when they stuck to their domestic operations but once they go the expansion virus and went off to the US they are competing with the BIG BOYS and have started losing money. Comparing a Full Sevice airline to a No Service airline is not reasonable.

I think you are wrong...they only really succeeded when the other airlines were weak and broke.

I think you are wrong...they only really succeeded when the other airlines were weak and broke.

Interesting POV.

Do you think WS will lose money this quarter? If so, a lot, or a marginal amount?

ac777, do you think WS is losing buckets of cash on international at this time?

Nobody said the worlds greatest, but WJ has had the second highest profit margins of all stand alone airlines in North America over the past 6 months.

You can never go wrong with that sort of record.

;)
And this makes it a great airline to fly on, from a business pax's standpoint :rolleyes:

Comparing a Full Sevice airline to a No Service airline is not reasonable.
Again, for the 109238091283rd time, WS is NOT no frills. They are NOT the opposite of a full-service airline, they only offer certain services that AC offers.

Simply lacking a union does not make an airline "no frills" and "low-cost" (SWA is heavily unionized).

Seat back tvs, loading bridges, hub at the most expensive airport in the world and service to all major cities instead of ancillary satellite-cities, in flight magazine, tray tables, seat pockets, tv and print advertising, credit card payments via website. These are NOT the attributes of a NO FRILLS airline although the media and several educated FT'ers make that mistake.

Simply lacking a union does not make an airline "no frills" and "low-cost" (SWA is heavily unionized).

Nobody mentioned anything about a union..

Seat back tvs, loading bridges, hub at the most expensive airport in the world and service to all major cities instead of ancillary satellite-cities, in flight magazine, tray tables, seat pockets, tv and print advertising, credit card payments via website. These are NOT the attributes of a NO FRILLS airline although the media and several educated FT'ers make that mistake.

Man do you stretch the term frill! Out of all of your examples, LiveTV is the only one that could be considered a frill. All the rest is just filler.

Nobody mentioned anything about a union..



Man do you stretch the term frill! Out of all of your examples, LiveTV is the only one that could be considered a frill. All the rest is just filler.
Fly wizz-air in Europe where you get a discount for paying for your flight through your bank account, advertising is 100% non-existent, and boarding is done through a flight-attendant at the low-cost carrier terminal in Warsaw because the cost of the main terminal is too much, and you'll learn the definition of a "no-frills airline".

And the fact that YYZ is their hub is not filler by any stretch of the imagination, LCCs ALWAYS stay out of pricey airports (cough SWA and the NYC area)

Nobody mentioned anything about a union..



Man do you stretch the term frill! Out of all of your examples, LiveTV is the only one that could be considered a frill. All the rest is just filler.

the only LCC thing about Wetjet is their phony advetising. They are competing nose to nose with AC on fare pricing. Don't give us the BS bit. Its ok for the suckers who listen to the ads but we know better.

Man do you stretch the term frill! Out of all of your examples, LiveTV is the only one that could be considered a frill. All the rest is just filler.

Then why are the true no-frills airlines in Europe -- I think it is one of EasyJet or RyanAir, perhaps others getting rid of these things or discussing it?

Seat recline? FRILL!

Simon

the only LCC thing about Wetjet is their phony advetising. They are competing nose to nose with AC on fare pricing. Don't give us the BS bit. Its ok for the suckers who listen to the ads but we know better.

Don't give us that BS about AC being nose-to-nose with pricing just because you and your handlers would like it to be so.... :td:

The only suckers are those who fly AC and are under a delusion that things are 'getting better'.... :rolleyes:

The only suckers are those who fly AC and are under a delusion that things are 'getting better'.... :rolleyes:
And those who get bonuses for their loyalty, like business class, being able to relax in a quiet lounge and have a beer during a delay :D

[QUOTE]Don't give us that BS about AC being nose-to-nose with pricing just because you and your handlers would like it to be so.... :td:

Check the fares instead of mouthing off like Clive....your alter ego Coffeebean accuses AC of even undercutting WJA on many routes.



The only suckers are those who fly AC and are under a delusion that things are 'getting better'.... :rolleyes:

And there are many more of those than the ones flying bankrupt NWA because CO dumped YEG. AC planes are all very full these days;then again why would you know that.

the only LCC thing about Wetjet is their phony advetising. They are competing nose to nose with AC on fare pricing. Don't give us the BS bit. Its ok for the suckers who listen to the ads but we know better.

Pricing means nothing. Air Canada will lose money in Q1 because it was 'nose to nose' with WS on fare pricing. LCC = Low cost carrier. Westjet can afford to price where it does, Air Canada cannot.

I wonder how AC intends to pay for those billions of dollars in planes it has coming?

The only suckers are those who fly AC and are under a delusion that things are 'getting better'.... :rolleyes:

I'm flying on an E75 or E90 on most routes that before had CRJs -- things are getting better.

I was in economy last week on an E75 and had seatback video -- things are getting better.

I receive complimentary upgrades on my pass bookings -- things are getting better.

More to come once they start refurbing planes.

Pricing means nothing. Air Canada will lose money in Q1 because it was 'nose to nose' with WS on fare pricing. LCC = Low cost carrier. Westjet can afford to price where it does, Air Canada cannot.
....
AC is likely making a lot of money in Canada and Transborder. The places where it competes with WS.

AC is likely losing money right now on its North Pacific flights where Yields are being depressed by new low fares and a few places on the Atlantic affected by all of the new capacity mounted by American carriers.

Last time I looked, the World was a bigger place than Canada. To be the World's greatest airline is a challenge that Westjet is unlikely to overcome. LCC's vary significantly and if one wants to get into the frills of a reclining seat let me remind you that Bangkok Airways is a LCC-- they have LOUNGES ( for EVERYBODY flying with them), FOOD on the flights FREE, seats recline etc!! They should be the World's Gretest Airline.If the price is the same--why should I go to Westjet and get NO perks ? PE thinks service isn AC is bad-- why not fly United and see the really friendly skies!

And those who get bonuses for their loyalty, like business class, being able to relax in a quiet lounge and have a beer during a delay :D

AmexPlatinum gives me the lounge when I choose to fly AC - it also gives me the lounge with CO, NW and DL the latter 3 of which get the overwhelming amount of my travel $$ along with WestJet. :D

Pricing means nothing. Air Canada will lose money in Q1 because it was 'nose to nose' with WS on fare pricing. LCC = Low cost carrier. Westjet can afford to price where it does, Air Canada cannot.
WS is LCC? $600 with taxes to go YYC-YYZ? :rolleyes:

$450 is considered a HUGE deal, when it's a disgrace.

AmexPlatinum gives me the lounge when I choose to fly AC - it also gives me the lounge with CO, NW and DL the latter 3 of which get the overwhelming amount of my travel $$ along with WestJet. :D
Good for you. All I have to do is route my clients $$$ to put me on AC, and I get rewarded for my loyalty without having to drop $400 on a credit card.

WS at least gives me...airmiles.

Pricing means nothing. Air Canada will lose money in Q1 because it was 'nose to nose' with WS on fare pricing. LCC = Low cost carrier. Westjet can afford to price where it does, Air Canada cannot.

I wonder how AC intends to pay for those billions of dollars in planes it has coming?

You must be a graduate of the Coffeebean school of accounting? If AC loses money in Q1 it is more likely because historically they have almost always lost money in Q1 not because of going nose to nose with WS. And as for how they are going to pay for the aircraft, I would have expected CB to provide that information however if you know anything about airline accounting you would know that they will probably be on a sale/leaseback basis or possibly on some other method of credit purchase outlined in the purchase agreement just like every other airplane purchased. Not to many airlines that can afford to lay down cash including your beloved WS. Why don't you ask CB. He probably has all the detail or hasn't he found a way to get that information yet.
And do you really give a damn and if so why?

[QUOTE]You must be a graduate of the Coffeebean school of accounting?

yep, everything is done by asm/casm/prasm and spasm. Bottom line is secondary if you're a casm specialist. Transportation group companies like ACE,that have airlines in their portfolio make him sick because he can't "spasm" an aeroplan profit. And of coure he can't "prasm" a tech services company either and he can't even "asm" an investment in another larger airline than AC. Oh woe is him :D

[QUOTE=roll-x]

yep, everything is done by asm/casm/prasm and spasm. Bottom line is secondary if you're a casm specialist. Transportation group companies like ACE,that have airlines in their portfolio make him sick because he can't "spasm" an aeroplan profit. And of coure he can't "prasm" a tech services company either and he can't even "asm" an investment in another larger airline than AC. Oh woe is him :D


Woe is ACE.

Even with all the various sources of revenue in the 4th quarter, AC lost about $16 a second.

In 2005, remove the one time cash from the sale of assets, and the company had an operating margin, including interest expense, of 1.4%, a rounding error.

Any way you cut it, even after Leblanc's folly, WJ's margins, with or without interest expense, was at least 2x higher than ACE's.

Where is all the big profit going to come from in the future?

This from the gang that counts cars in T2 parking lots to figure out if an airline is making money.

How will you explain to the MAS when AC has another operating loss this quarter?

Things are improving?


;)

This from the gang that counts cars in T2 parking lots to figure out if an airline is making money.


No, don't twist words. This is from the gang that counts cars in T2 parking lots to see IF A PARTICULAR STRATEGY WAS WORKING. Not the airline as a whole. Nobody has argued that.

It is the micro of the transborder "leisure routes that are for couples and not four person families going on sun trips" (i.e., business) flights.

Not the macro WS.

The parking lot was empty.

The checkin lines were empty.

The planes were empty (load factor is meaningful when it approaches zero).

The routes/strategy were cancelled.

After hijacking route announcement threads, personal attacks and locked threads being your modus operandi, now you're going to resort to twisting people's words into things they were not as your method of argument?

Where's the website? Not willing to share with other FF, the whole point of FT?

Simon

Things are improving?


We're talking with PE about travellers. You know, those people who board planes, and like to share FF tips with each other? That thing you hate about finding ways into lounges?

Feel free to start sharing tips about flying. I'm sure you can find an "airline executives/founders" board to share your tips about cost factors on route X with someone who cares.

;)

...Good for you. All I have to do is route my clients $$$ to put me on AC, and I get rewarded for my loyalty without having to drop $400 on a credit card.

WS at least gives me...airmiles.

90% of the money I spend on airfares is my own after-tax money. The $400 is well worth it and I can easily afford it.

Is there going to be a turf war between T1 and T2 on Friday night? I can just imagine Parnel driving up in his 1998 Buick Century and giving CB a good whipping with his cane. The pie charts and raw data flying around in the air as CB yells "MARGINS! MARGINS! MARGINS! CASM! CASM!" would be both alarming and kinda amusing.

Parnel / 1998 Buick Century...

Think Daimler Chrysler ;) ......

Think Daimler Chrysler ;) ......

Concorde? (I mean, sort of keeping with the topic of this board LOL)

Is there going to be a turf war between T1 and T2 on Friday night? I can just imagine Parnel driving up in his 1998 Buick Century and giving CB a good whipping with his cane. The pie charts and raw data flying around in the air as CB yells "MARGINS! MARGINS! MARGINS! CASM! CASM!" would be both alarming and kinda amusing.

Buick centurys are for you who can't afford a real car because you don't mkae much more than minimum wage........the registration says "430"

Concorde? (I mean, sort of keeping with the topic of this board LOL)

The German part of the company.......

Buick centurys are for you who can't afford a real car because you don't mkae much more than minimum wage........the registration says "430"

A Lexus eh ?

[QUOTE=parnel]


Woe is ACE.

Even with all the various sources of revenue in the 4th quarter, AC lost about $16 a second... ;)

Yadda, yadda, yadda. Your same old tired cliches. In case you haven't noticed, a year has four quarters.

[QUOTE=Coffeebean]

Yadda, yadda, yadda. Your same old tired cliches. In case you haven't noticed, a year has four quarters.


Ok. A 1.4% operating margin, including interest expense for the entire year.

The Aeroplan one time gain is a re-fi play. Same with Jazz. It's no different than if you sell off all your living room furniture for cash, then have to rent it back so you can use it at 8% interest rate, when prime is in the 3% range.

It's no different than sale / lease back of aircraft. AC did that for years.

The funny thing is, the strength of all the re-fi plays is a function of the strength of the core business, the airline. If it rots, so will the rest of the business.

A 1.4% operating margin isn't high enough to cover the cost of capital, in a capital intensive business.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we're back to business. Parnel, go up to CB in whatever wealthy old people drive and hit with your cane, only relenting with a couple CATSA agents decide to intervene. Oh, and did I mention those CATSA agents are the shop stewarts?

:D