I'm an American Jew and I would like to know if anyone Jewish has ever visited the United Arab Emirates (specificlly Dubai) or Qatar or Bahrain?

I should stipulate that I have a somewhat common Jewish/German lastname and I have visited Israel, but it was 30 years ago and the entry/exit stamp is not on my current passport.

The reason I am asking this is because I am in the air cargo business and Dubai in particular is one of the fastest growing air hubs in the world. I have passed on many conferences that were held in Dubai because I have assumed I would be putting myself at risk if I visited Dubai.

I would also like to visit Qatar and Bahrain.

Dubai/UAE, Qatar and Bahrain are fine for Americans regardless of religious affiliation. Names that may be perceived by some to correlate with religious affiliation does not cause inconvenience to Americans in those countries (beyond perhaps the very occassional immigration official thinking of going through the passport pages a bit more in detail).

Dubai/UAE, Qatar and Bahrain are fine for Americans regardless of religious affiliation. Names that may be perceived by some to correlate with religious affiliation does not cause inconvenience to Americans in those countries (beyond perhaps the very occassional immigration official thinking of going through the passport pages a bit more in detail).

What he said. I am a German citizen and a Christian, but have a last name that is about as Jewish as it gets (my paternal great-great-great-grandfather [not sure if that is 7 generations, but it should be] was Jewish and and converted to Catholicism to marry a Catholic girl). I have visited both the UAE and Bahrain and neither country has made an issue of it. I've also managed to procure a visa for Syria to use in two months. (OP, if you're intested, I'll PM you my last name, you be the judge...)

As long as you don't make an issue out of being Jewish, I doubt your hosts/hotels/business partners will either.

Everything posted above is true but... you have to be aware that people are not governments -- even some people who work for governments.

When terrorists took over the Air France flight that was diverted to Entebbe, they separted all passengers who had Jewish-sounding names -- not just Israelis -- and kept them as hostages while letting the others leave.

Leon Klinghoffer, a 69-year-old American man in a wheelchair, was killed by terrorists aboard the Achille Lauro and thrown overboard for no other reason than he was Jewish.

With the very high tensions in the Middle East right now (and they are, unfortunately, apt to remain very high for the foreseeable future) you may want to think twice before visiting some Moslem nations. Yes, you will be allowed in, but there is nobody -- not any of the posters here, not the governments of the countries you may visit -- who can truly contend that you aren't at a higher risk than a non-Jewish traveller.

Dubai is fine, and there are plenty of people of all religions in Dubai. In many regards -- and by many measures -- it is more diverse than most all comparably-sized metropolitan areas in the world.

Jewish Americans have no more reason than any other Americans to hesitate about visiting Dubai for any reason related to safety or acceptance by government or business or social circles there. Many members of the ruling elite in the OP-mentioned places host American friends routinely -- including those whom self-identify as jewish. The BA flights from JFK-LHR-DXB and the Emirates' flights from JFK-DXB have quite a few Americans who are jewish. It's not a problem.

Everything posted above is true but... you have to be aware that people are not governments -- even some people who work for governments.

When terrorists took over the Air France flight that was diverted to Entebbe, they separted all passengers who had Jewish-sounding names -- not just Israelis -- and kept them as hostages while letting the others leave.

Leon Klinghoffer, a 69-year-old American man in a wheelchair, was killed by terrorists aboard the Achille Lauro and thrown overboard for no other reason than he was Jewish.


True but pay attention that these stories happened to people who traveled to "friendly" countries and were taken hostages by fanatics. It does not imply anything much about "non friendly" countries. Fanatics (not necessarily Muslim) are everywhere these days.

Dubai is fine, and there are plenty of people of all religions in Dubai. In many regards -- and by many measures -- it is more diverse than most all comparably-sized metropolitan areas in the world.


Most of the people in Dubai today are not "Nationals" as they call them.

Despite the problems with the cartoons in Lebanon I would not hesitate to visit the country again. (I was there in January and had a blast)

(I was there in January and had a blast)

Err, given the day to day situation in the Middle East (especially Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, and Egypt) could you please reword that? :)

Not that it has anything to do with his parents, but while waiting at Bahrain airport for the Gulf Air staffer to sort out our tickets, we heard a 4yr old who'd gotten away from his mother being called, "Osama, Osama!". Despite not being at all worried by our fellow travellers, hearing this made us think about the popularity of 'Osama' in the country of these travellers ;)
No problems for my wife and I in Bahrain itself or the airport, and I noticed a lot of Americans there, particularly in the city near coffee and fast food outlets. It seemed a pretty friendly place.

Err, given the day to day situation in the Middle East (especially Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, and Egypt) could you please reword that? :)

Ah, finally someone who has as grim a sense of humour as I do. ^

"Osama" is a very common male name -- the kid was probably named for a relative. Of course, these days, all the Osamas I know in the U.S. have switched to going by "Sam", :)

It's a bit like how Adolf/ph was a very popular male first name (Menjou, Green) until after Hitler's rise.

Not that it has anything to do with his parents, but while waiting at Bahrain airport for the Gulf Air staffer to sort out our tickets, we heard a 4yr old who'd gotten away from his mother being called, "Osama, Osama!". Despite not being at all worried by our fellow travellers, hearing this made us think about the popularity of 'Osama' in the country of these travellers ;)
No problems for my wife and I in Bahrain itself or the airport, and I noticed a lot of Americans there, particularly in the city near coffee and fast food outlets. It seemed a pretty friendly place.

After terrorism in Oklahoma, the name Timothy didn't drop out of usage in America. And I doubt the name Osama/Usama is going to drop out of circulation outside of the "Euro"centric parts of the world either. (The name Osama won't be found as prevalently in the more Farsi-centric places, but that's for lingo-cultural reasons.) Given the recirculation of names for newborns -- especially in recognition of other family members living and deceased more than anything else -- the name won't go away anytime soon.

About the UAE, specifically Dubai: it undoubtedly has one of the highest ratios of foreign citizen to nationals in the world. Even Iranians -- with whom the UAE establishment has major issues when it comes to government-to-government relations -- are generally well accepted there. Also, if someone thinks a jewish American is more at risk in the smaller Gulf emirates than being a shia muslim in the region, then one hasn't observed matters closely enough. (Even in the UAE, the "security forces" have beaten the living daylights -- or worse -- out of shias suspected of fomenting unrest in other parts of the Gulf. Thankfully, the UAE establishment is increasingly of the opinion that such tactics are counterproductive and people should be able to focus on business and making money.)

somewhat common Jewish/German lastname

I wasn't aware Fonzarelli was German/Jewish. :D

[QUOTE=GUWonder]After terrorism in Oklahoma, the name Timothy didn't drop out of usage in America. And I doubt the name Osama/Usama is going to drop out of circulation outside of the "Euro"centric parts of the world either. (The name Osama won't be found as prevalently in the more Farsi-centric places, but that's for lingo-cultural reasons.) Given the recirculation of names for newborns -- especially in recognition of other family members living and deceased more than anything else -- the name won't go away anytime soon.

QUOTE]

Actually, there were some reports that post 9/11 in certain parts of the world and among Palestinians it had become very chic to name a boy "Osama"....

:mad:

Actually, there were some reports that post 9/11 in certain parts of the world and among Palestinians it had become very chic to name a boy "Osama"....

:mad:

The story of a journalist/commentator and his/her story. (I am not questioning the veracity/validity/implication of such reported anecdotes.) There will always be such reports if someone wants one. (The reports of increased/declined "chic"-ness of the name George, Joe/Josef, Ali, Mohammed, Indira, etc. in the Middle East could be crafted too.) I remember stories that said the name Saddam had become more "chic" at some point in time too. However, I run across far fewer people having that name across the world today than 30 years ago.

In any event, going to Dubai, Doha, and Bahrain on an American passport is no more complicated for people subscribing to Judaism than it is for those subscribing to Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, non-sunni Islam, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, animism and a variety of other religions. I say this having travelled extensively in the Gulf, including travel to the DXB, BAH and DOH with a diverse group consisting of people of all faiths mentioned.

Everything posted above is true but... you have to be aware that people are not governments -- even some people who work for governments.

When terrorists took over the Air France flight that was diverted to Entebbe, they separted all passengers who had Jewish-sounding names -- not just Israelis -- and kept them as hostages while letting the others leave.

Leon Klinghoffer, a 69-year-old American man in a wheelchair, was killed by terrorists aboard the Achille Lauro and thrown overboard for no other reason than he was Jewish.

With the very high tensions in the Middle East right now (and they are, unfortunately, apt to remain very high for the foreseeable future) you may want to think twice before visiting some Moslem nations. Yes, you will be allowed in, but there is nobody -- not any of the posters here, not the governments of the countries you may visit -- who can truly contend that you aren't at a higher risk than a non-Jewish traveller.

I have to say that I find this overly alarmist. I might agree that, at the margin, there is some minute increased risk from being non-Jewish, if you were to find yourself in a situation involving some militant fundamentalist muslims. It is, however, extremely unlikely that you would find yourself in such a situation (assuming you're not a journalist or soldier or some other profession that would take you out looking for trouble). Further, depending on who these unlikely antagonists are, being American, regardless of religion, is probably a bigger risk factor.

The picture of the Middle East painted in the western media can be very misleading. Yes there are bad people there, but much of the middle east is, from a total risk perspective, safer than many other developing regions. You are far more likely to have something bad happend to you in Mexico City than you are in the UAE. Further, hospitality to guests is a fundamental value of most Arab cultures.

I have personally visited the UAE, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia with Jews and never experienced any problems. I know Jews that have worked in several other Middle Eastern countries. I would not recommend advertising the fact that you are Jewish, but I don't, frankly, see any reason to be concerned.

I'm an American Jew and I would like to know if anyone Jewish has ever visited the United Arab Emirates (specificlly Dubai) or Qatar or Bahrain?

I should stipulate that I have a somewhat common Jewish/German lastname and I have visited Israel, but it was 30 years ago and the entry/exit stamp is not on my current passport.

The reason I am asking this is because I am in the air cargo business and Dubai in particular is one of the fastest growing air hubs in the world. I have passed on many conferences that were held in Dubai because I have assumed I would be putting myself at risk if I visited Dubai.

I would also like to visit Qatar and Bahrain.

I am an american (non jew) and I was sent by IBM to work in Qatar for 2 months. I worked and mingled with ex-pats there and had no issues living and working there. I even visited the old parts of Doha and walked thru the streets and found people very friendly.

I also visted Dubai and found it to be nothing different than any western city. Dubai has probably the biggest european population than any other middle eastern city and is a fabolous and modern city. Its great for tax free shopping. I would highly encourage anyone to visit Dubai.

I wasn't aware Fonzarelli was German/Jewish. :DI was going to make the same point, and then I remembered, the Fonz IS Jewish!! :cool:

I have to say that I find this overly alarmist. I would not recommend advertising the fact that you are Jewish, but I don't, frankly, see any reason to be concerned.

I was begining to think of myself as paranoid untill I came to the end of your post.

What would you say to an American Jew who clearly was identifiable as a Jew by his clothes beard etc. Still nothing to be afraid of?

Years back there used to be an Israeli interests office in Qatar. It lasted a while but I dont believe it still exists. There was a small Israeli delegation resident there. I know someone who was part of it. Her mother travelled there to visit her, with a "plain" Israeli passport.
They loved Qatar. Said they had a good and interesting time there.

so I dont think and dont really want to think that being jewish is an issue for an american citizen. Have met british and other non-Israeli jews who travel to Dubai on business. The risk, if any, imho would be some badly timed anti-western uprise. I would go.

Heard once that Emirates dont offer kosher meals though...wonder if its true

Heard once that Emirates dont offer kosher meals though...wonder if its true

That part is true - though you can request halal meals, which will get you more or less the same thing.

That part is true - though you can request halal meals, which will get you more or less the same thing.

Kosher may equal halal, but halal does not equal kosher. Therefore, people who keep kosher will not be ordering halal meals.

goodo

Kosher may equal halal, but halal does not equal kosher. Therefore, people who keep kosher will not be ordering halal meals.

goodo

I said more or less, didn't I?

But since you seem well-versed about this, how does halal differ from kosher? I haven't the foggiest... :confused:

Thanks,

Alex

I said more or less, didn't I?

But since you seem well-versed about this, how does halal differ from kosher? I haven't the foggiest... :confused:

Thanks,

AlexI can't answer b/c I know nothing about halal, but I can say that most folks who keep 'strictly' Kosher will only eat food that's been certified Kosher by a recognized authority whose role is to do so.

I said more or less, didn't I?

But since you seem well-versed about this, how does halal differ from kosher? I haven't the foggiest... :confused:

Thanks,

Alex

The rules are endless. Suffice it to say, however, that if something is kosher it is also halal but the reverse is not true.

The rules are endless. Suffice it to say, however, that if something is kosher it is also halal but the reverse is not true.

I know most muslims default for kosher food because of meat-related restrictions, but FWIW or not worth this site (http://www.soundvision.com/info/halalhealthy/halal.kosher.asp) seems to show that not all kosher food is halal:

Salient differences between kosher and halal are:

Islam prohibits all intoxicating alcohols, liquors, wines and drugs. kashrut regards all wines kosher. Hence food items and drinks showing the kosher symbol containing alcohol are not halal.

Gelatin is considered Kosher by many Jews regardless of its source of origin. If the gelatin is prepared from non-zabiha, Muslims consider it haram (prohibited). Hence foods items such as marshmallows, yogurt, etc., showing kosher symbols are not always halal.

Enzymes (irrespective of their sources even from non-kosher animals) in cheese making are considered mere secretion(pirsah b'almah) according to some kashrut organizations, hence all cheeses are considered kosher. Muslims look for the source of the enzyme in cheese making. If it is coming from the swine, it is considered haram(forbidden). Hence cheeses showing kosher symbols may not be halal.

The salient differences between kosher and halal have been illustrated so that Muslim consumers can distinguish halal from kosher.

Differences within Kosher:

There are different sects within Judaism and there are several hundred Jewish Kosher authorities in the US who certify Kosher based on extremely liberal to extremely conservative rules. Therefore it is difficult to come up with one uniform opinion regarding Kosher practices. A symbols "k" for kosher is not governed by any authority. Any manufacturer can use it at will. A website guiding Jews about Kosher states "it may take a great deal of detective work to ascertain the standard that a particular rabbi is using." For this reason many Muslims when buying anything kosher look for "u" in a circle which are more conservative Kosher symbol.

That part is true - though you can request halal meals, which will get you more or less the same thing.

On the meat-side, basically yes. And it is the meat-related reason why muslims interested in eating something halal (or close to it) seem to go for kosher food by default when halal options are not available or food ingredients may not be clear. But there are halal foods that are not kosher. Take a halal meal of beef steak with potato and butter. Would that be kosher? No.

From prior posts, there are halal foods that are not kosher, and there are kosher foods that are not halal. That said, a muslim interested in eating halal meat (or something approximating it) will generally eat kosher meats.

From prior posts, there are halal foods that are not kosher, and there are kosher foods that are not halal. That said, a muslim interested in eating halal meat (or something approximating it) will generally eat kosher meats.

Hmm, thanks for the explanation, though I have to say this doesn't necessarily make it clearer. But from what I gather, it's not at all clear to begin with anyway, so that doesn't seem to be the biggest problem.

Though I do know that when I lived in singapore I would have to rent two barbecue pits whenever I grilled for friends - one for stuff that was definitely halal/kosher and another for everything that was not.

Strangely enough, Singapore was one of the places where halal and kosher (and their respective adherents) were able to coexist without too much trouble.

Hmm, thanks for the explanation, though I have to say this doesn't necessarily make it clearer. But from what I gather, it's not at all clear to begin with anyway, so that doesn't seem to be the biggest problem.

Though I do know that when I lived in singapore I would have to rent two barbecue pits whenever I grilled for friends - one for stuff that was definitely halal/kosher and another for everything that was not.

Strangely enough, Singapore was one of the places where halal and kosher (and their respective adherents) were able to coexist without too much trouble.

There are varying degrees of strictness, interpretations and observance when it comes to religious dietary practices, and so what is clear to some adherents may not be clear to others -- and especially not to most non-practioners.

The dietary restrictions are certainly not obvious to even all members of a given religion. For example, there are many muslims who only eat halal food and who don't drink alcohol. Most such muslims find food cooked in alcohol-based sauces to be "haram"/prohibited -- even while many other muslims do not consider it "haram" as long as there is no possibility for even a "buzz" from the alcohol-based sauce.

I recall from family friend's children that Dartmouth campus had something on this matter a while back since the Hillel/JSA-equivalent and the MSU-equivalent there were going to set up a joint halal-kosher kitchen that then ended up being used also for food that certain hindus and jains could eat. The inclusion of the jains' diet was a surprise to me since jains will not share utensils that are used for meat preparation. Setting up of such a food preparation arrangement involves a good understanding of the commonalities and differentiators. That may be a good go-to point to find out more about this matter.

I personally cannot think of any grilled meat that is kosher and "haram", but I'm sure somebody at Dartmouth has to know more about this. :D

Here's something:

http://69.57.157.207/archives/2001/10/01/kosherhalal_dining_more_than_matzoh.php

Regarding Halal vs. Kosher, The cheese enzyme thing is a problem with kosher- rennet is a problem.

Also, Halal-certified meat would never be kosher because a religious (Jewish) butcher is required, and the standards for kosher slaughter are very strict (if there is a miiniscule nick on the knife, the animal just slaughtered is considered not kosher, for example).

Also, Halal-certified meat would never be kosher because a religious (Jewish) butcher is required, and the standards for kosher slaughter are very strict (if there is a miiniscule nick on the knife, the animal just slaughtered is considered not kosher, for example).

Nearly the same could be said about kosher-certified meat not being halal because a religious butcher is "required". Still, I know muslims who eat at McDonalds and say that their saying a few words before eating the meat means that it's completely halal for them. (And there are other muslims who won't eat at McDonalds in the US because they don't consider it "halal" under any circumstances.)

For muslims, is there food that is not "halal" yet not "haram"/prohibited (i.e., is there food stuff "in between" those two poles)?

(I'd be curious about how McDonalds sources food in the Middle East and South Asia. In particular, McDonalds in India -- not part of the M.E. -- would be interesting because "jhatka" meats -- that Sikhs eat -- is not strictly "halal" and "halal" meats are not strictly "jhatka".)

For muslims, is there food that is not "halal" yet not "haram"/prohibited (i.e., is there food stuff "in between" those two poles)?



Anything that is "halal" is lawful to eat. Anything that is "haraam" is not. In McDonalds for example... we can eat everything except the meat.

An apple, for example, is halal because we are allowed to eat it.

People that follow Islam closely will only eat meat that has been certified Halal, which has quite strict rules. Kosher meat is not permissible. We can eat products of non halal animals (milk, cheese etc) and seafood does not need to be slaughtered in any specific way.

Cheers

There are varying degrees of strictness, interpretations and observance when it comes to religious dietary practices, and so what is clear to some adherents may not be clear to others -- and especially not to most non-practioners.

The dietary restrictions are certainly not obvious to even all members of a given religion. For example, there are many muslims who only eat halal food and who don't drink alcohol. Most such muslims find food cooked in alcohol-based sauces to be "haram"/prohibited -- even while many other muslims do not consider it "haram" as long as there is no possibility for even a "buzz" from the alcohol-based sauce.


That's a good explanation. ^

Generally, if a Muslim tries to adhere to halal eating restrictions, but doesn't do it religiously, (pardon the pun :) ) they will not look into ingredients of things, and will eat Kosher meat if Halal meat is not available.

Cheers

....
An apple, for example, is halal because we are allowed to eat it.

Cheers

Shouldn't that be the other way around? You're allowed to eat the apple because it is halal.

Shouldn't that be the other way around? You're allowed to eat the apple because it is halal.

Nope. The Quran / Hadith does not talk about whether or not you can eat apples specifically. Therefore we can assume that we can eat apples. Therefore eating apples is halal.

Cheers

That's interesting - how do the dietary rules apply to foods that are new or processed?

I love FT ... I had to go back and read the entire thread to figure out how you got from travelling in the middle east to a discussion on halal vs kosher. Interesting discussion. :)

I've been reluctant to travel to the Middle East (dxb, etc) myself but based on this thread might rethink that position. There was a really good EK deal I passed on because I didn't think the country or airline would be particularly welcoming -- that could be wrong based on this thread. Does anyone change their position if the traveller is a female travelling alone? The middle east doesn't strike me as the most open minded place to be a woman but that can also be a misperception.

Does anyone change their position if the traveller is a female travelling alone? The middle east doesn't strike me as the most open minded place to be a woman but that can also be a misperception.

Dubai is fine for women travelling alone. (The only thing is beware that at hotel bars, single women may be confused for erotic service providers.)

Dubai is fine for women travelling alone. (The only thing is beware that at hotel bars, single women may be confused for erotic service providers.)
LOL - thanks for the tip :)

I have a Jewish employee who has been to Dubai several times without any issue at all. He's taken another employee, a young, thin, single blonde woman of Irish descent (I think), and without a lot of travel experience and he felt he had to watch out for her (as did our client). But she was fine and enjoyed the trip.

I love FT ... I had to go back and read the entire thread to figure out how you got from travelling in the middle east to a discussion on halal vs kosher. Interesting discussion. :)

I've been reluctant to travel to the Middle East (dxb, etc) myself but based on this thread might rethink that position. There was a really good EK deal I passed on because I didn't think the country or airline would be particularly welcoming -- that could be wrong based on this thread. Does anyone change their position if the traveller is a female travelling alone? The middle east doesn't strike me as the most open minded place to be a woman but that can also be a misperception.

I agree with the comments above. Out of all the cities in the Middle East, Dubai would have to be the most friendly to outside visitors - it even reminds me a bit of vegas. Other places that you should not have any trouble going to regardless of race or creed:

Oman (an amazing place)
Bahrain
Qatar
Kuwait
Syria
Lebanon
Jordan

you might enjoy the other countries as well, but generally the entry requirements are more strict, and you as a visitor, you may not feel "at home"

Cheers

Lebanon
Syria


I just got back from 10 days in these two, I found them to be very welcoming indeed. I have a friend (female) who just wrapped up 5 months of working in Beirut, and she never had any problems.

Lebanon especially is a great place to visit, very open, and astoundingly liberal.