Well, we all now have an answer, thanks to MileKing. :-:

From yesterday's Q & A with the US Air reps:

MileKing

We are all pulling for US Air. Even so, many of us are concerned about our Dividend Miles account balances and award tickets booked for future travel on Star Alliance partners using those Dividend Miles. Should the worst come to pass (i.e, liquidation of US Air), will those award tickets for travel on Star partners be honored?

US Airways

We have no intention of liquidating and we intend to remain a member of Star. If you are ticketed on a partner airline, that airline utimately decides whether to honor the ticket, but why would the Star Alliance want to lose a customer?


I think that you should follow your gut accordingly but by all means, book award travel ASAP preferably for flights in the near future, as opposed for sometime over the horizon.

I understand that this could be read to contradict somewhat what Randy has written, but in the absence of his providing support for his contention -- despite numerous entreaties for him to do so or further explain his assertion, as well as the absence of a statement from United or any other Star Carrier to the contrary as to what they will do in the event of a US Air liquidation, one should possibly assume the worst.

It depends on your level of risk and how you read that statement by the US Air reps. I am conservative in my risk assessment and therefore, hence my thoughts on the matter.

Good Luck!

Well, we all now have an answer, thanks to MileKing. :-:

From yesterday's Q & A with the US Air reps:




I think that you should follow your gut accordingly but by all means, book award travel ASAP preferably for flights in the near future, as opposed for sometime over the horizon.

I understand that this could be read to contradict somewhat what Randy has written, but in the absence of his providing support for his contention -- despite numerous entreaties for him to do so or further explain his assertion, as well as the absence of a statement from United or any other Star Carrier to the contrary as to what they will do in the event of a US Air liquidation, one should possibly assume the worst.

It depends on your level of risk and how you read that statement by the US Air reps. I am conservative in my risk assessment and therefore, hence my thoughts on the matter.

Good Luck!

Nah, my read on that answer is "They don't have to honor the ticket, but they might." Which is what we've always known about the issue. The statement doesn't give me relief nor make me more worried.

Well, we all now have an answer, thanks to MileKing. :-:

From yesterday's Q & A with the US Air reps:




I think that you should follow your gut accordingly but by all means, book award travel ASAP preferably for flights in the near future, as opposed for sometime over the horizon.

I understand that this could be read to contradict somewhat what Randy has written, but in the absence of his providing support for his contention -- despite numerous entreaties for him to do so or further explain his assertion, as well as the absence of a statement from United or any other Star Carrier to the contrary as to what they will do in the event of a US Air liquidation, one should possibly assume the worst.

It depends on your level of risk and how you read that statement by the US Air reps. I am conservative in my risk assessment and therefore, hence my thoughts on the matter.

Good Luck!

I suppose it would be unreasonable in today's litigious society for any airline executive to admit that there is a high liklihood than the sun will rise tomorrow, let alone what might happen to award tickets on alliance carriers if US liquidates.

Does anybody have any insight on how US and its alliance partners account for award travel bought with miles?

I had assumed that it was some type of off setting account with debits and credits accrued anbd the airlines settled up the account with their partners at some periodic interval, say monthly or quarterly.

So if you have an award ticket that was booked a few months ago and presumably "settled up" by US and its alliance partner--is that award ticket looked at differently than a ticket which might have booked a couple of days ago?

I booked business class award to SYD for my sister in March for travel next February. The arrangement between Qantas and US is probably somewhat different than with the *A carriers---although I don't know if that would mean that Qantas requires US to settle up those trips sooner than the *A carriers do.

If I bought the Qantas ticket to SYD, I would have paid for it two months ago. I have a hard time believing that Qantas will wait until the award trip is taken in order for US to pay them whatever the agreed upon rate is for the business class award.

Somehow--it seems as though it would be a more complicated question than yes or no on whether the tickets would be honored. I assume in BK court, the alliance carriers are permitted to receive reimbursement for award travel that is booked with them by US DM members.

Anybody have any insight on the whole accounting process between airlines on award tickets? :confused:

Nah, my read on that answer is "They don't have to honor the ticket, but they might." Which is what we've always known about the issue. The statement doesn't give me relief nor make me more worried.

I concur with this interpretation. I'm not a US flyer, but if I was, I would definitely try to burn miles as soon as possible. And I would definitely book any non-imminent reward trips on other Star Alliance carriers. The one thing you can probably be sure of is that if US liquidates, reward tickets on US metal will be in big jeopardy.

Those concerned should also check out this thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120265&page=2&pp=15&highlight=required+honor+award+bankrupt).

My bet on accounting is a due to/from method with periodic settlements.

So... when you book on United they would record a small receivable from USAir and vice versa. Periodically they get together and settle up.

I would estimate that they use VERY low numbers. (For example, my Grandfather's First Class non-rev tickets were valued for income tax purposes as worth the LOWEST possible fair on that routing. So he sat First Class to London and was charged taxes on the $250 seat in the back by the toliet!)

NJ

Good to see you posting again. ^

I don't think the question was ever whether they are OBLIGATED to honor the tickets, but whether they WOULD honor the tickets. Two different things. If anyone thinks they know what will happen, you've got another thing coming. Especially for those who revel in and cherish the idea that US will fail--I would not bet on that either.

Provided that US does fail, I would be willing to compensate the operating carrier in the amount that US would have paid them. Not my first choice, but it is better than no ticket at all. This should be the fall back position for US fliers to coalesce around should the worst of the worst happen.

Having said that, US's future rests in the hands of its labor force. Over the next month we'll see how this plays out.

Hopefully US will survive and it will not be an issue but my guess is some airlines will honor and some will not.....possibly the ones that honor the awards will have a small handling or convenience fee of some sort that will be charged. I mean what choice do you have if they try to squeeze a few bucks from your right?

With all due respect to my FT colleagues, the question that MileKing posed yesterday, and the answer that he received from the US Air reps was not but a simple regurgitation of a known or expected response with respect to such award tickets.

I would like to remind you of Randy's response that he gave to a USA Today reader with respect to a similar question:



Question:

We want to use US Airways miles for three tickets next February from Charlotte to Orange County, Calif., on United. We plan to pay for a fourth ticket. If we use US Airways miles to book on partner United, and US Airways goes out of business before our trip, what does that do to the "free" flights we booked on United?

We're afraid we would be left with just one paid ticket on United (not refundable and we rarely fly from Charlotte on United). I would hate to find out two weeks before travel that we have to spend $3,000 for three family members to join the fourth.

Answer:

In this case, you'll be completely covered. The key to this answer: You will have moved the miles from your Dividend Miles program into free tickets on United. Once that transaction takes place, you no longer have to worry about the US Airways program or your miles commitment since it is fully ticketed and protected.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/miles/2004-07-12-askrandy_x.htm


As I have noted above, the US Air rep declined to give such a broad based assurance with respect to any of the Star Alliance carriers.

Moreover, Randy was there, as well, and he declined to repeat his assertions although he very well could have interjected such a rejoinder with respect to United, etc.

He did not, and neither did the US Air rep. They both declined to make any sort of statement to the effect that once you had redeemed your miles and were ticketed for an award flight on another Star carrier you would be "protected."

To me, that speaks volumes.

Yes, it always has been up to another carrier whether, or not, to accept your award ticket. This is not news to anyone. A Star carrier may do this right now. However, should such a carrier decline to accept your ticket right now, you at least would have some sort of recourse as US Air is currently a member of the Star Alliance. Not so if they are out of business. If that event occurs in the future, you will not find US Air arguing on your behalf as they have been removed from the equation and you will be on your own.

Moreover, the US Air rep's statement above would still obtain -- it is up to the perogative of the Star Carrier to accept your ticket.

Indeed, the rationale that the US Air rep advanced that would convince the Star Carrier to actually accept your award ticket -- why would they want to lose a potential future customer -- seems to this individual, quite unpersuasive.

I can think of a few thousand Dollars worth of reasons why they would not wish to accept the award ticket, regardless of the future business that you might steer to them in the future. This is especially true of foreign carriers, but also holds for United. After all, is it reasonable to assume that United will decide to start serving Philadelphia, Pittsburgh or Charlotte in a major way if US Air folds?

I think not. Why anyone would want to come into to PHL if SWA has run US Air into the ground and face such competition is beyond me.

Pit is currently negotiating with low cost carriers to pick up the slack left by US Air's downgrading the hub, and Charlotte has a small population base.

Moreover, I do not know if any of you have noticed, but United actually lost money in August -- one of the big summer months. The management has conceded that they still must cut another $500 million just to attract exit financing, and many of you hope that United has the dough to pick up the remnants of US Air should it liquidate??

I hate to say it but I think that you are living in a fantasy land.

What's more, the very fact that the US Air reps declined to ratify Randy's prior sweeping declaration -- despite their acknowledgement that they continuoulsy read the FT US Airways Board -- means to this reader, that Randy's prior pronouncement may not be on such firm ground, and that if you are not much of a risk taker, you had better not count as a lock your award tickets being honored by the Star Carrier in the event of a US Air liquidation.

That's my take. IMHO, this certainly is not "old news."

IMO it's unfortunate that Randy went on record with the "if you're ticketed, you're covered" line of thinking. If it was this simple there would be no need for the 20 threads on this forum asking the same question.

I stand by my original conclusion. Nothing new was revealed last night, except that there aren't any special plans to save our miles in the event US folds.

We could go back and forth on this all day long and the simple answer is that no one knows. So for anyone to assert unequivocal certainty either way is fooling themselves. Now if you can see future winning lottery numbers with absolute certainty, that is something I'm interested in.

I have over 300,000 miles tied up in US tickets on other *A carriers, but at the same time I'm really quite fatalistic about it. Whatever happens is going to happen, regardless of what we do or think on this board.

The only area we have some sway is to perhaps lobby the *A for some official guidelines for these situations. Perhaps a FFOCUS organization for the *A?

We could go back and forth on this all day long and the simple answer is that no one knows. So for anyone to assert unequivocal certainty either way is fooling themselves.

Thanks Neo! ^

And now we can debate which came first, the chicken or the egg... ;)

We could go back and forth on this all day long and the simple answer is that no one knows. So for anyone to assert unequivocal certainty either way is fooling themselves. Now if you can see future winning lottery numbers with absolute certainty, that is something I'm interested in.

With all due respect, kindly copy and paste any of my statements above or in the past year, wherein I state anything with unequivocal certainty.

On the contrary, I always have endeavored to present both sides and then discuss my own personal distaste for great risk.

On the other hand, I hate to say this, but if one were to review many of your posts on the overall viability of US Air and/or whether or not they would even seek bankruptcy protection for a second time, I believe that you have, more often than not, been quite in error, so much so that one could claim that you suffer from a serious case of tunnelvision.

As I often have noted, I have no dog in this fight as I do not live in any of US Air's hub cities, have no US Air mileage account, and have never flown US Air's most lethal competitor -- SWA.

Unfortunately, you all too often have chalked one's "reality check" up to a supposed bias in favor of SWA. To the contrary, you have demonstrated unusual optimism with respect to anything having to do with US Air.

For those who have less appetite for risk, I am presenting my take on the current situation, as I have done in the past, and that's all.

YMMV.

-----------------------------

PS -- I just came across this thread in the United forum. I believe that a rule similar to it will likely soon be instituted with respect to US Air.

Good luck!

I thought you might be interested in reading this web page:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357909&referrerid=17411

From,
NJUPINTHEAIR

I can think of a few thousand Dollars worth of reasons why they would not wish to accept the award ticket, regardless of the future business that you might steer to them in the future.

It costs the partner almost nothing to accept your ticket for standby travel only. That's what I expect would happen, and we would be grateful to travel at all. It's a win-win.

It costs the partner almost nothing to accept your ticket for standby travel only. That's what I expect would happen, and we would be grateful to travel at all. It's a win-win.


I certainly understand that point, but why would a Star carrier wish to tie up such a seat when it could possibly sell it for revenue or allow the solvent Star Carrier's FFers redeem it.

In addition, why in the world would one wish to plan their entire vacation on a standby basis in any event, especially if you were planning a trip overseas?

That is perhaps why there seems to be a change that is about to go in effect within the Star Alliance that will limit one's ability to fly on a reward ticket to within 90 days of the date that you were sucessfuly able to make that award booking redemption. See URL above.

With all due respect, kindly copy and paste any of my statements above or in the past year, wherein I state anything with unequivocal certainty.

On the contrary, I always have endeavored to present both sides and then discuss my own personal distaste for great risk.

On the other hand, I hate to say this, but if one were to review many of your posts on the overall viability of US Air and/or whether or not they would even seek bankruptcy protection for a second time, I believe that you have, more often than not, been quite in error, so much so that one could claim that you suffer from a serious case of tunnelvision.

As I often have noted, I have no dog in this fight as I do not live in any of US Air's hub cities, have no US Air mileage account, and have never flown US Air's most lethal competitor -- SWA.

Unfortunately, you all too often have chalked one's "reality check" up to a supposed bias in favor of SWA. To the contrary, you have demonstrated unusual optimism with respect to anything having to do with US Air.

For those who have less appetite for risk, I am presenting my take on the current situation, as I have done in the past, and that's all.

My final thoughts.

If you do not think that you can use up your mileage balance on a Star or US Air flight before the end of the year -- at the latest -- I think that you should get a Div Miles credit card and be prepared to use it to allow you to convert whatever Div Miles you have left in your account into E-Bay points via Points.com if it appears that US Air is sinking fast.

Such a mechanism will permit you to keep miles in your account and not have to tie them up in any flight and if US Air were to survive, you would have your miles to use.

If however, the handwriting is on the wall, then you could convert those miles quite quickly before the plug is pulled and thereby get some value from them before it flies its last flight.

YMMV.

-----------------------------

PS -- I just came across this thread in the United forum. I believe that a rule similar to it will likely soon be instituted with respect to US Air.

Good luck!

I thought you might be interested in reading this web page:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357909&referrerid=17411

From,
NJUPINTHEAIR

-------------------------------------

Well--I guess the typical airline advice to plan ahead for award travel as much as possible is (or will be) no longer applicable.

Can't say that I am surprised--it is similar to a wealthy country restricting its immigration from a bordering country which is poor. They do not want to be overwhelmed with "refugees".

Signed--

a DL refugee...

Just wanted to chime in and say that I agree that this "new" information doesnt tell us anything we didnt already know. These are corporate spokespeople, they arent about to obligate another company when they have no formal power to do so. This is the status quo, no one knows for sure what will happen.

It would border on financially irresponsible for any Star Alliance carrier to commit in advance to fully honoring DM award tickets. Furthermore, any carrier can change its mind on this issue at any time, so a commitment today would not fully allay members' concerns about the future. We just have to live with the uncertainty. But again, I would expect to be allowed to fly standby on a DM ticket, probably even if ticketed on US metal.

I certainly understand that point, but why would a Star carrier wish to tie up such a seat when it could possibly sell it for revenue or allow the solvent Star Carrier's FFers redeem it.

If they're allowing a standby passenger on, then that inherently means they weren't able to sell the seat or have any of their passengers that wanted to redeem, based on my understanding of how standby usually works (basically one step above non-revs). While you'd have some confused infrequent flyers, most people would be happy to just make any flight wherever they were going.

I remember when the US threads were always calm and civil compared to some of the others. Too bad we're losing that perspective.

Nobody knows(tm)

No new information here.

This is getting repetitive and redundant.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't see what grounds an alliance carrier would have for refusing a ticket. The FF paid for an award (with miles), the alliance carrier agreed to ticket it, and now the transaction is complete: the carrier (not US Airways) has agreed to transport the FF. The ticket is an agreement -- not between the FF and US Airways but between the FF and the carrier. US Airways is just an intermediary. Unless there's some language buried in the conditions that says "ticket is invalid if US Airways goes broke" I think the alliance partners are going to have to honor their agreements.

I don't know how US Airways reimburses its partners when I use DM to acquire a ticket, and I don't really care because it's none of my business. If there is some reimbursement owed by US Airways to an alliance partner at the time of liquidation, that is a business matter between the two partners. I don't see how an alliance partner could argue that a failure by their partner, US Airways, could invalidate an award that they themselves agreed to ticket.

We're playing by the rules created by the Star Alliance, our miles have been deducted, and we have tickets in hand for airlines that are still flying. And if US Airways ceases to exist, all this remains true. I'm surprised that anyone thinks a Star partner has the option to refuse a ticket.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't see what grounds an alliance carrier would have for refusing a ticket. The FF paid for an award (with miles), the alliance carrier agreed to ticket it, and now the transaction is complete: the carrier (not US Airways) has agreed to transport the FF. The ticket is an agreement -- not between the FF and US Airways but between the FF and the carrier. US Airways is just an intermediary. Unless there's some language buried in the conditions that says "ticket is invalid if US Airways goes broke" I think the alliance partners are going to have to honor their agreements.

I don't know how US Airways reimburses its partners when I use DM to acquire a ticket, and I don't really care because it's none of my business. If there is some reimbursement owed by US Airways to an alliance partner at the time of liquidation, that is a business matter between the two partners. I don't see how an alliance partner could argue that a failure by their partner, US Airways, could invalidate an award that they themselves agreed to ticket.

We're playing by the rules created by the Star Alliance, our miles have been deducted, and we have tickets in hand for airlines that are still flying. And if US Airways ceases to exist, all this remains true. I'm surprised that anyone thinks a Star partner has the option to refuse a ticket.

Your ticket is with USAir. Look at the ticket number and the carrier code. It is US. You paid US in miles for a US ticket on another carrier. The other carriers agree to honor these tickets in exchange for a set payment. When you fly (and only after you actually fly), that carrier gets reimbursed from US. No US means no reimbursement - you are trying to board a plane with a promise of future payment from another airline that no longer exists.

That's how I understand it. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but there have been many threads on the inability to get award tickets on other carriers ticket stock/codes. It makes perfect sense to me.

Your ticket is with USAir. Look at the ticket number and the carrier code. It is US. You paid US in miles for a US ticket on another carrier. The other carriers agree to honor these tickets in exchange for a set payment. When you fly (and only after you actually fly), that carrier gets reimbursed from US. No US means no reimbursement - you are trying to board a plane with a promise of future payment from another airline that no longer exists.

That's how I understand it. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but there have been many threads on the inability to get award tickets on other carriers ticket stock/codes. It makes perfect sense to me.
----------------------------------------

I booked an award seat with US miles on QF back in March for travel next year.

The over the water portion is ticketed on QF ticket stock with QF flight numbers.

QF is not in *a--its one of the US partners that allow for award travel. Do any *A carriers use their own stock or flight numbers for the awards bought with US miles?

While you'd have some confused infrequent flyers, most people would be happy to just make any flight wherever they were going.

I understand that, as well, but how many people are willing to go somewhere, especially overseas, when they may not be able to secure a standby seat for their return within the specific time-frame that their vacation is to last?

I can understand doing this within the Continental US with the broad based changes that the LCCs have wrought and the much greater ability of us to obtain reasonable 1 way fares from many areas, but from Europe or Asia? I don't see those fares, at all.

I still contend that this is a "new" development as the US Air rep utterly failed to ratify Randy's so far unsupported claim that if you are ticketed on United -- which in itself is a misnomer, as the general consensus is that if you redeem US Air miles for a United flight, your ticket is still one that is viewed as a "US Air ticket" regardless of the "metal" you are to fly -- you are "protected."

Others have advanced the notion that a Star Carrier would be foolish to telegraph its intentions in advance of what may occur in the event of a US Air liquidation, but yet in the same breath, they also seem to claim that the carrier would, at a minimum, reap "brownie points" if it were to honor such a reward ticket -- even on a standby basis. But, if that is correct, then what is stopping the Star Carrier from announcing this in advance?? Surely, whatever claimed benefit for accepting such tickets in the event of a liquidation, would be even greater -- using this form of reasoning -- if the carrier were to make this sort of announcement now. That none have done so, IMHO, undercuts this argument.

Moreover, others have alleged that US Air cannot make policy for its other Star colleagues, and although this no doubt is true, many have not commented on Randy's sweeping statement that holding a ticket on United assures one that you are "protected" for such reward flight.

The news that I saw coming out of this chat session was the fact that a US Air rep acting as a rep for both US Air and indirectly as a Star Carrier, has clearly indicated that this decision is to be made by each individual Star Carrier, and Randy did not repeat his allegation that if you held a United ticket, you were fine. That Randy did not support his earlier contention and United has studiously refrained from making such a statement is important, IMHO, and my only observation is that regardless of Randy's prior pronouncement, there was no attempt by the US Air rep or Randy to confirm that statement, and, therefore, the jury is still out with respect to holding a confirmed ticket for a United flight ensures that you will be able to take such flight in the event of a US Air liquidation.

Nobody knows(tm)

No new information here.

This is getting repetitive and redundant.

I couldn't agree more, except to add annoying.

Absolutely no new information here, other than folks around the process venturing guesses.

Those with heavy account balances are clearly at some risk. Those with award tickets are at risk. This has not changed. We'll have to all hope for the best (and prepare for otherwise, if necessary).

I understand that, as well, but how many people are willing to go somewhere, especially overseas, when they may not be able to secure a standby seat for their return within the specific time-frame that their vacation is to last?

I can understand doing this within the Continental US with the broad based changes that the LCCs have wrought and the much greater ability of us to obtain reasonable 1 way fares from many areas, but from Europe or Asia? I don't see those fares, at all.

I still contend that this is a "new" development as the US Air rep utterly failed to ratify Randy's so far unsupported claim that if you are ticketed on United -- which in itself is a misnomer, as the general consensus is that if you redeem US Air miles for a United flight, your ticket is still one that is viewed as a "US Air ticket" regardless of the "metal" you are to fly -- you are "protected."

Others have advanced the notion that a Star Carrier would be foolish to telegraph its intentions in advance of what may occur in the event of a US Air liquidation, but yet in the same breath, they also seem to claim that the carrier would, at a minimum, reap "brownie points" if it were to honor such a reward ticket -- even on a standby basis. But, if that is correct, then what is stopping the Star Carrier from announcing this in advance?? Surely, whatever claimed benefit for accepting such tickets in the event of a liquidation, would be even greater -- using this form of reasoning -- if the carrier were to make this sort of announcement now. That none have done so, IMHO, undercuts this argument.

Moreover, others have alleged that US Air cannot make policy for its other Star colleagues, and although this no doubt is true, many have not commented on Randy's sweeping statement that holding a ticket on United assures one that you are "protected" for such reward flight.

The news that I saw coming out of this chat session was the fact that a US Air rep acting as a rep for both US Air and indirectly as a Star Carrier, has clearly indicated that this decision is to be made by each individual Star Carrier, and Randy did not repeat his allegation that if you held a United ticket, you were fine. That Randy did not support his earlier contention and United has studiously refrained from making such a statement is important, IMHO, and my only observation is that regardless of Randy's prior pronouncement, there was no attempt by the US Air rep or Randy to confirm that statement, and, therefore, the jury is still out with respect to holding a confirmed ticket for a United flight ensures that you will be able to take such flight in the event of a US Air liquidation.


You can dissect this until you are blue in the face but it doent change anything. You are working on no different set of facts than the rest of us and have nothing to contribute to the net result of the analyses which is that no one knows. A US Air rep will not, should not, make statements on the behalf of other firms. Nor is there any point of Randy asking them to do so. As a result the fact they didnt say it and he didnt ask it has no real meaning and doesnt contribute anything to the situation. We simply dont know what will happen.

The over the water portion is ticketed on QF ticket stock with QF flight numbers.

QF is not in *a--its one of the US partners that allow for award travel. Do any *A carriers use their own stock or flight numbers for the awards bought with US miles?

You got me all excited for a moment there. Can you check your paper tickets carefully? I had to rush to the desk and examine my QF tickets.

My QF tickets for April '05 "bought" with my hard-earned ;) US miles are clearly printed on US stock (the stock control number begins 037). I have heard others say that issuing the tickets on US stock is the only possible option.

The news that I saw coming out of this chat session was the fact that a US Air rep acting as a rep for both US Air and indirectly as a Star Carrier, has clearly indicated that this decision is to be made by each individual Star Carrier, and Randy did not repeat his allegation that if you held a United ticket, you were fine. That Randy did not support his earlier contention and United has studiously refrained from making such a statement is important, IMHO, and my only observation is that regardless of Randy's prior pronouncement, there was no attempt by the US Air rep or Randy to confirm that statement, and, therefore, the jury is still out with respect to holding a confirmed ticket for a United flight ensures that you will be able to take such flight in the event of a US Air liquidation.
I have long since come to the conclusion that if something happens my miles are toast. I have found peace in coming to that conclusion. I have enjoyed many years of free trips to places I would have never gone otherwise, so I feel I have received my money’s worth. Anything other than the complete loss of miles is nothing but upside. There is no way to know what will happen, so all the conjecture at this point is exactly that; conjecture.

As far as the chat session, I not sure what we expected these guys to say. Given what they did say and the positions that they hold with US, I have come to the conclusion that the honoring of the tickets will be up to the carriers the tickets are booked on. :D Did we expect them to say the tickets would be worthless. IMHO, that is what they will be, but did any of us really think they would come out and say it? Put yourselves in their position. What would you have said?

Another FWIW, if something does happen; I think there is a Virgin in our future.

You got me all excited for a moment there. Can you check your paper tickets carefully? I had to rush to the desk and examine my QF tickets.

My QF tickets for April '05 "bought" with my hard-earned ;) US miles are clearly printed on US stock (the stock control number begins 037). I have heard others say that issuing the tickets on US stock is the only possible option.
---------------------------------------

Well--I booked the award for my sister--but I can have her check them.

I vaguely remember what they look like--but I do recall that they had QF flight numbers

You can dissect this until you are blue in the face but it doent change anything.

You are working on no different set of facts than the rest of us and have nothing to contribute to the net result of the analyses which is that no one knows.




StSebastian


Join Date: May 2003
Location: RDU
Programs: US CP, NW Gold, *G, SSSS Silver (last 4 of 7 flights), INS Flagged (last 3 international returns)
Posts: 955


I remember when the US threads were always calm and civil compared to some of the others. Too bad we're losing that perspective.


Yes, it is a shame when such ad hominem attacks are encountered and no one says anything. I just chalk it up to those who have sizeable mileage balances at risk.

Sorry that you feel that it is better to shoot the messenger who brings you a message you do not wish to receive.

As one of your bretheren said to me, I should just ignore the "boneheads" who inhabit this board.

I will take that advice, now, although as one who is linked to one of the attorneys who was representing one of only three firms that were invited to pitch to the US Air unsecured creditors commitee this past Monday in D.C., of the 25 firms who went down in an effort to be selected for such a pitch, I might have been useful in the future as to the Bankruptcy bar's scuttlebut with respect to future developments regarding US Air.

However, since I have nothing to contribute, I will refrain from any future comments on this subject.

It matters little in any event, as it is quite likely that this forum will be history in the next couple of months.

Good luck to all in their endeavors.

Individual airlines will decide whether or not to honor the award tickets. That is as simple as it gets.

I have a large balance of miles with U and will still continue to burn at my normal rate. If I lose my balance, I go to another airline that wants my business and offers me the most for my money. I have been pleased with the relationship I have had with U and will miss then if or when they are gone.

But the last statement "Why would they want to lose a customer?" is very true. If you get stuck because a carrier would not honor an award, that would leave a bitter taste in the customer's mouth.

So in closing, I don't have a clue on how anything is going to fall out. :D

---------------------------------------

Well--I booked the award for my sister--but I can have her check them.

I vaguely remember what they look like--but I do recall that they had QF flight numbers

As MikeLaw said, the only thing that matters is the airline code on the ticket. Of course it has partner flight numbers, that's what you're flying on. If they were issued at a partner desk, all they have loaded is paper with their graphics. It's little bits of ink printed on paper - what picture/words those bits make aren't all that relevant. Who owns the ticket? Legally? I'll put my bet on an "037" preceding that ticket number.

Certainly tell me if I'm wroing - I'll load up on Q tix.

Nobody Knows (tm)

Yes, it is a shame when such ad hominem attacks are encountered and no one says anything. I just chalk it up to those who have sizeable mileage balances at risk.

Sorry that you feel that it is better to shoot the messenger who brings you a message you do not wish to receive.

As one of your bretheren said to me, I should just ignore the "boneheads" who inhabit this board.

I will take that advice, now, although as one who is linked to one of the attorneys who was representing one of only three firms that were invited to pitch to the US Air unsecured creditors commitee this past Monday in D.C., of the 69 firms who went down in an effort to be selected for such a pitch, I might have been useful in the future as to the Bankruptcy bar's scuttlebut with respect to future developments regarding US Air.

However, since I have nothing to contribute, I will refrain from any future comments on this subject.

It matters little in any event, as it is quite likely that this forum will be history in the next couple of months.

Good luck to all in their endeavors.

That was not an ad hominem attack. I did not attack you but rather your analysis of the available information and stated that contrary to your view, I felt you presented no new information. I will stand by both of those statements and the fact that it wasnt an ad hominem attack. I made no reference to you personally or to other posts of yours nor did I question your motives. I simply said I disagrees with your analysis which I believe is reading too much into things that were said or not said on the chat with US reps. Agree or not. But I would rather not hear whining and please do not accuse me of making personal attacks when I am not. If I do make a personal verbal attack it wont be terribly ambiguuous.

But I would rather not hear whining and please do not accuse me of making personal attacks when I am not. If I do make a personal verbal attack it wont be terribly ambiguuous.



StSebastian


Join Date: May 2003
Location: RDU
Programs: US CP, NW Gold, *G, SSSS Silver (last 4 of 7 flights), INS Flagged (last 3 international returns)
Posts: 955


I remember when the US threads were always calm and civil compared to some of the others. Too bad we're losing that perspective.


I will not belabor the point. You have, indeed, crossed the line, as you often have. You first levelled your sights on SWA.com, who might actually have deserved your scorn -- I don't know -- but since his voice has been silenced, there was only me to throw a cautionary note to the readership.

That this thread has garnered better than 800 hits in less than 1 day is testament to "new" developments that arose from the US Air chat. I will take into the account those who do not post for fear of being on the receiving end of your barbs as demonstrated by the number of hits it has received in less than a day in contrast to your overheated rhetoric and continual carping with those who do not agree with you.

Two final items. First, I was erroneous when I intially wrote 69 firms when that number was closer to 25 -- I edited my original post, you may wish to do likewise. Although given the small nature of the Bankruptcy Bar when it comes to these multi-million dollar bankruptcies, I have been advised that 25 firms pitching is still a formidable number of firms auditioning for this sort of engagement.

Second, US Air is now formally advising the Court that it faces liquidation if the cuts it wishes to make are not countenanced.
http://www.reuters.com/financeNewsArticle.jhtml?type=bondsNews&storyID=6332169

I would not be surprised if a motion to appoint a trustee was not soon filed, as was done in Hawaiian Air's bankruptcy proceedings, for US Air management has yet to detail the cuts that it is willing to make to its own pay.

Some of you might know that at least when United filed for bankruptcy protection the management, at the very least, had the foresight and sagacity to immediately institute an across the board pay cut of 11% to its own salaries. I would not be surprised if the interested parties sought to remove US Air mngmnt given the failed history of labor relations at this company and the recriminations that still haunt their dealings with one another -- sort of like what is apparent from some on this board.

Good luck to all.

I will ask again, what is new in this post? Virtually no one here is saying, certainly not me, that we know what will happen. I doubt that other *A carriers have even made a decision yet. The fact that US has said they may have to liquidate in court filings certainly isnt news. I have posted here that I think it is unlikely they will make it much past November. So to say that I or anyone else is trying to silence you for saying that there is a danger of this happening really isnt something that there is much support for. I have however, criticized the certitude and novelty attached to your analyses. I believe, as I think I clearly stated, that you attached far too much import to the statements made or not made in the chat. Your claims that is personal dont make it so. Nor does your claim that I am trying to "silence" you, thereby attaching a personal motive to my statements regarding your posts, make it so.

Others have advanced the notion that a Star Carrier would be foolish to telegraph its intentions in advance of what may occur in the event of a US Air liquidation, but yet in the same breath, they also seem to claim that the carrier would, at a minimum, reap "brownie points" if it were to honor such a reward ticket -- even on a standby basis. But, if that is correct, then what is stopping the Star Carrier from announcing this in advance??

Answer: Suppose UA were to announce today that all DM tickets on UA would be honored for standby travel only. DM redemptions on UA would skyrocket, creating many extra potential standby passengers to be accommodated. UA might even get some requests to redeposit DM awards into M+.

Now suppose that UA were to make the same announcement -after- US goes under. With that timing, the offer looks much more generous -and- it does not increase the number of passengers to be accommodated or unduly raise expectations.

I'd bet money that this is how it will sort out if US folds. It's what I would do if I were running UA.

Answer: Suppose UA were to announce today that all DM tickets on UA would be honored for standby travel only. DM redemptions on UA would skyrocket, creating many extra potential standby passengers to be accommodated. UA might even get some requests to redeposit DM awards into M+.

Now suppose that UA were to make the same announcement -after- US goes under. With that timing, the offer looks much more generous -and- it does not increase the number of passengers to be accommodated or unduly raise expectations.

I'd bet money that this is how it will sort out if US folds. It's what I would do if I were running UA.

Precisely, it would be the FF equivalent of a run on a bank. Moreover, since they wouldnt have enough availability it would just annoy people who couldnt book the tickets. In the event that US survived it would have possibly even generated ill will between US customers and either US or the other *carrier they were trying to book on. It could also be seen as a vote of no confidence in US at what is clearly a very dicey time for them. We would benefit a lot from such an announcement if it were forthcoming, but the people who would have to make the announcement have a lot more to lose than gain from making it I am afraid.

I just wish I had been able to trademark "No one knows". I wonder what licensing arrangement is available for it.

As the one who put forth the original question during the US Air chat, I thought I would weigh in with my views on US Air's response as well as my thoughts on the entire issue of liquidation and award tickets, although clearly this thing has been and likely will continue to be beaten to death.

I appreciate US Air's answer to my question, but like most of you on this thread, I don't believe we learned anything new. The answer was non-commital; it didn't say award tickets would be honored by *A partners if US liquidates, but it didn't say they wouldn't be honored either. This does call into question Randy's statement that such tickets would be honored, but in reality, we still do not have a definitive answer to the question.

I had hoped that the US representatives at the chat would be able to reference something from their interline agreements, the workings of the ticket clearinghouse, ARC, legal precedent, or whatever to provide more insight into the entire issue. I guess it was wishful thinking.

Many have cited that the US award tickets for carriage on partner airlines are on US Air ticket stock (037). This is true, and seems to be a big point with many FlyerTalkers, although it is not clear to me that it really matters. My understanding, and it certainly may be incorrect, is that when an airline issues a ticket for transport on another carrier, that the airline is acting as an agent for that carrier (with full knowledge of the transporting carrier) and in those situations it is the transporting airline's contract of carriage and terms of transportation that rule. Some have said that this applies to revenue tickets, but I have yet to see any evidence that suggest it would not apply to award tickets as well. If the transporting carrier's terms rule, then that is where we should be looking for more information. On another thread, I provided some information from UA's contract of carriage that strongly suggested that tickets issued by a bankrupt carrier (or a carrier in default of its interline agreement) would NOT be accepted by UA unless the tickets were issued prior to the bankruptcy or default. UA continues to accept US issued tickets at this time; my view is that they are doing so solely at their own option, i.e., they are not legally obligated to do so. Further, I continue to believe that if liquidation of US does occur, UA will have to (legally) honor US tickets issued prior to US Air's bankruptcy in accordance with their own contract of carriage. They would not have to honor tickets issued since US filed for bankruptcy.

All of this is certainly open to interpretation, but that is the way I view things at the moment. Perhaps one of the lawyers out there with experience in the bankruptcy field can shed further light on this.

This thread is going to be closed. I'm closing it because the quality of discourse (yes, before some major edits) has deteriorated to the point of adding nothing of value to the forum.

I'd caution that in the future, the discussion should remain on the topic at hand.