One of the things that came up at RF that struck me as a "trial balloon" was an almost casual reference to possibly reconfiguring the A321 fleet.

I think that it's a bad idea. They should be focused on finding ways to fill those seats with customers who have paid for them not finding ways to squeeze still more $29 fares onto the plane.

IMHO the best way to fill those seats with paying passengers would be to abandon the idea that the seat is "worth" a whole bunch of money more than a coach seat. It isn't, it never was and it never will be. And it never cost what they'd have the world believe either (and if it did or does then someone needs to be fired.) So long as they list F fares of $1,500+ and the ilk and nab the occasional sucker they'll continue to nurse that mindset. Lower the barriers and people will snatch them up.

It should be possible to offer a decent, if not flashy, F product at reasonable rates. And it should be possible to use the opportunity to upgrade as an incentive without whining about the cost.

IMHO the best way to fill those seats with paying passengers would be to abandon the idea that the seat is "worth" a whole bunch of money more than a coach seat.


Agreed. Tom, your US employees at the PHL gathering mentioned that the FC seat needs to draw in 170% of the income of the coach seat to break even (size and *cough* extra ammenities). I agree completely that the pricing for premium seating is WAY out of line. Skip the $99 transcon coach fares and price it at $250 to $550 for r/t coach (depending on when you buy the ticket) and $700/1,000 for domestic, plastic-cupped FC and I *think* they may see some profits...

Skip the $99 transcon coach fares and price it at $250 to $550 for r/t coach (depending on when you buy the ticket)

This is awfully hard to do when Southwest is breathing down your back with splashy ads touting their NEW high frequency service from XXX (MHT/PVD/PHL/BWI, etc) to XXX (LAS/LAX/OAK/SAN, etc) for $198 r/t.

Perhaps true if you're a once a year flyer to Disneyland but not if you are a high-dollar business traveller who lives/loves the idea of an airline with a national and international profile. If your goal is to fly coach all the time in the USA and redeem a few free tickets to Texas of Florida then maybe Southwest is the place for you. If you travel far and wide for your work/pleasure then maybe US is the better bet when it comes time to flights and redeeming an award?

IMHO, there is nothing wrong with not knowing where HKG, SIN, BKK, and FCO are on the route-map but it's certainly not an airline (with its partners) I'll fly. ;)

My heart skipped a beat when I heard that at R'fest, as well. If they re-instituted the GoFirst fares to LAS, I bet they could easily fill an A321 F cabin as it's currently configured. I'm not paying $1500 for PHL-LAX (esp given the current state of F) but I'd pay $750 or $800 for it considering the class of service bonus miles for such a long distance.

I think if they institute some GoFirst fares and keep in on the long haul flights (why can't I get a A321 from PHL to PHX, SAN, or SEA but recently got one to BUF?!), they'd sell the seats. For 4-5 hours in the air, it's worth the money.

Perhaps they should take a row or two out and increase the pitch of the existing rows.... maybe add some legrests/footrests and a nicer recline. Not quite Envoy, but not quite crappy domestic F. That might command a higher premium. I'd be more likely to pay the guarnateed F (or A) fare rather than sweat out an upgrade for a few hundred $$$ less.

Transcon F service from PHL could really be something close to that d@mn AA Flagship service on those aging 767-200s they run from JFK-LAX.....if they tried hard enough.

You are exactly right TomBascom. It is about fare rationalization. I just paid 40% more for a B fare JFK-LHR on UA for personal travel because I would get 150% EQM and upgrade for half the mileage. That is good value to me. 500% more wouldnt have been. I am allowed at work to buy up to full fare coach. I dont since it comes out of my budget and it is a waste in my opinion. But I dont fly Southwest either. It is damaging to productivity while traveling. The problem has always been that the ratios between cheap and expensive fares have been so crazy. That is what they need to fix.

Perhaps they should take a row or two out and increase the pitch of the existing rows.... maybe add some legrests/footrests and a nicer recline. Not quite Envoy, but not quite crappy domestic F. That might command a higher premium. I'd be more likely to pay the guarnateed F (or A) fare rather than sweat out an upgrade for a few hundred $$$ less.

Transcon F service from PHL could really be something close to that d@mn AA Flagship service on those aging 767-200s they run from JFK-LAX.....if they tried hard enough.

Practically every major airline in the US has thought of that in and out of BOS to the left coast. DL spent huge dollars 4 or 5 years ago to launch a wide body, super F service from BOS to SFO and LAX. Methinks it was 767-300s (don't quote me though) and F was much closer to Intl Biz than domestic F. There was an extrordinary TV ad campaign as well as full page print ads announcing it for weeks........ it royally bombed. Various carriers have also dressed up service from JFK, as well, and little by little, they disappear. As long as 99%+ of F seats are UGs, then why would an airline realistically remove seat inventory to offer an F product better than the competition?

I think that US's seats on the 321 (while miserably uncomfortable for me) are okay and essentially in line with competitors' offerings. The component to fix is not the existing seats, it's the existing level of sub-par service. US's F offering in terms of amenities (entertainment, food, drink, presentation) is woefully lower than its competition -- and more in line with America West or AirTran. :rolleyes:

I've flown DL and UA's "premium services" out of JFK to the west-coast. Don't even think about comapring them to US's FC - there is NO comparison. US sux.

However, I am still of the mind that rational FC fares would draw $$$ out of MY pocket. ^

Agreed. Tom, your US employees at the PHL gathering mentioned that the FC seat needs to draw in 170% of the income of the coach seat to break even (size and *cough* extra ammenities). I agree completely that the pricing for premium seating is WAY out of line. Skip the $99 transcon coach fares and price it at $250 to $550 for r/t coach (depending on when you buy the ticket) and $700/1,000 for domestic, plastic-cupped FC and I *think* they may see some profits...

Their CASM is about $0.09/mile and RASM is, I think, around $0.12/mile. 1.7x $0.12 is about $0.20/mile. I figure that means that the "sweet spot" for a transcon would be about $500 (one way) which matches your numbers nicely. I would, however, point out that the stage length of a trans-con significantly reduces CASM making an $800 N seat a pretty good idea. IMHO.

The "typical" US Airways customer flies an 800 mile trip (one way). That would work out to an N fare of $160 -- given the short stage length N fares on those sorts of flights might make more sense at $180 to $200 (perhaps even subsidizing the trans-cons to some degree.)

Of course that 170% number is fairly flawed -- there's a hidden assumption that if it weren't for the F seats they could sell more coach seats. But even with load factors in the 80s that isn't true -- most of the time there is no 170% extra cost and, on average, the seats take nothing away. During certain peaks and in particular markets they do prevent a few coach seats from being sold (at unprofitable prices...) but I think you'd have to pro-rate it to be able to offer a number comparing the needed revenue to coach. IMHO 125% is probably closer to the mark.

Somewhere else they mentioned that the new "South Florida" (now known to be FLL) service needs roughly 30% of the cabin to be on "business fares". Assuming that that is roughly true across the board they're going to have a tough time attracting that many premium passengers with tiny F cabins and a bag of pretzels. They're going to need an E+ to make a dent in those numbers.

Perhaps they should take a row or two out and increase the pitch of the existing rows.... maybe add some legrests/footrests and a nicer recline. Not quite Envoy, but not quite crappy domestic F. That might command a higher premium. I'd be more likely to pay the guarnateed F (or A) fare rather than sweat out an upgrade for a few hundred $$$ less.

Transcon F service from PHL could really be something close to that d@mn AA Flagship service on those aging 767-200s they run from JFK-LAX.....if they tried hard enough.

That's an interesting thought -- taking a row (4 seats) out of the 321 F cabin would get you another 5" or 6" per row of F and still leave 22 seats. As is it is somewhat cramped... I wonder if they could just take the half row and realign the galley somehow?

One of the things that came up at RF that struck me as a "trial balloon" was an almost casual reference to possibly reconfiguring the A321 fleet.

I think that it's a bad idea. They should be focused on finding ways to fill those seats with customers who have paid for them not finding ways to squeeze still more $29 fares onto the plane.

IMHO the best way to fill those seats with paying passengers would be to abandon the idea that the seat is "worth" a whole bunch of money more than a coach seat. It isn't, it never was and it never will be. And it never cost what they'd have the world believe either (and if it did or does then someone needs to be fired.) So long as they list F fares of $1,500+ and the ilk and nab the occasional sucker they'll continue to nurse that mindset. Lower the barriers and people will snatch them up.

It should be possible to offer a decent, if not flashy, F product at reasonable rates. And it should be possible to use the opportunity to upgrade as an incentive without whining about the cost.

It seems to be a long time ago, but I think I remember US Air Frequent Travlers receiving a few upgrade coupons and being able to buy more for $ 25 each. It might be reasonable to bring back something like this.

It seems to be a long time ago, but I think I remember US Air Frequent Travlers receiving a few upgrade coupons and being able to buy more for $ 25 each. It might be reasonable to bring back something like this.


Why??

It seems to be a long time ago, but I think I remember US Air Frequent Travlers receiving a few upgrade coupons and being able to buy more for $ 25 each. It might be reasonable to bring back something like this.

I think those were $25 upgrades from a full coach fare, and even at that I think it was also only $25 per 800 miles. So, a coast to coast one way trip would be $75 above the already outrageously high Y fare you would have paid to be able to use those certs.