What is the fee per leg/flight/ticket/whatever that I pay to be inspected by
the TSA?

Curious Minds want to know!

(Pissed-off travellers want a good retort!)

$2.50 per segment, up to $10 per itinerary.

Bruce

You paid the same thing Pre 9-11.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TSA@CAE:
You paid the same thing Pre 9-11. </font>

Time for you to take remedial history.

The "September 11 Security Fee" was enacted in November, 2001, and collected in February, 2002.

Glad to see we're getting our money's worth. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by HeHateY:
What is the fee per leg/flight/ticket/whatever that I pay to be inspected by
the TSA?

Curious Minds want to know!

(Pissed-off travellers want a good retort!)</font>

Do you also make smarmy comments about the price of your entree with regard to their hourly wage when the Olive Garden employee takes five minutes too long bringing out your manicotti?

Curious minds want to know.

Mook

------------------
The future of US domestic air travel:
"Please watch your head as you exit the aircraft."

[This message has been edited by Mook (edited 01-14-2003).]

That is a bad analogy. I don't have to go to the Olive Garden if I want to eat. I must be screened by the TSA if I want to fly.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TSA@CAE:
You paid the same thing Pre 9-11.</font>

WRONG!

Comrade Daschle threw it into the "Transportation Security Act of 2001". You know, the same act that created the TSA and gave a multi-million dollar gift to the company his wife lobbied for.

JS....Greyhound will take you wherever you want to go and you won't have to be screened. Many of our "rights" have limitations. Try buying a gun legally (second amendment) without some sort of check or delay. Sure, the system is not perfect, but what is? If it really bothers you so much, then maybe flying is not for you. I know I would avoid anything that gets my blood boiling as yours seems to be. I cannot speak about our leadership as I do not follow them as closely as you do.

P.S. I guess I was wrong about the security fee, although there was a fee that each airline collected to pay for the previous screeners. The same airlines that fought the gov't for years over security. Too bad it took something like 9-11 for it to be changed.

This should be in TravelBuzz http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Hmmmm, Greyhound to SIN from SFO. Now that would be a bus ride http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Mook:
Do you also make smarmy comments about the price of your entree with regard to their hourly wage when the Olive Garden employee takes five minutes too long bringing out your manicotti?

Curious minds want to know.

Mook

</font>


Actually Mook I wanted to know what I paid to nearly experience having my wallet and passport stolen when I was at NYC last week. You see I beeped and was told to put everything thru the machine while I was pulled aside for wanding and other passengers were allowed to pass between myself and my documents.

$10 for identity theft? Cheap!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by HeHateY:

Actually Mook I wanted to know what I paid to nearly experience having my wallet and passport stolen when I was at NYC last week. You see I beeped and was told to put everything thru the machine while I was pulled aside for wanding and other passengers were allowed to pass between myself and my documents.

$10 for identity theft? Cheap!</font>

Wow. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif Nothing surprises me any more.

The good news is, most security checkpoints (including those at JFK and LGA, IIRC) have continuously running cameras at the metal detectors. Many a would-be thief has been uncovered and summarily fired / arrested, from what I understand.

OK ... in that instance, I can see where a rant to let off steam would be justified. But I've heard too many would-be George Carlins letting TSA people who are playing entirely by the rules have it with both barrels. All that serves to do is prolong the process and make the passenger look foolish, IMO.

Mook

------------------
The future of US domestic air travel:
"Please watch your head as you exit the aircraft."

[This message has been edited by Mook (edited 01-15-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Comrade Daschle(...)</font>

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by FWAAA:
Time for you to take remedial history.

The "September 11 Security Fee" was enacted in November, 2001, and collected in February, 2002.

Glad to see we're getting our money's worth. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif</font>

The airlines were paying for the security prior to 9-11 and it was added to your ticket. Do you think that it was free? It is just widely known now who is paying for it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
The airlines were paying for the security prior to 9-11 and it was added to your ticket. Do you think that it was free? It is just widely known now who is paying for it.

</font>

And they still are - the government wants to bill them hundreds of millions for security. The airlines are understandably balking. The $10 9/11 security fee is new and additional to what we used to pay. Time for you to take that history class. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Aren't the airlines also trying to get money from the government in the form of a bailout? It seems to me that poor management on the part of the airlines is more to blame for their problems than the TSA which has only been in existance for what...a year now? Are we to believe that the airlines had no problems before 9/11? If we look at two airlines that are doing weel, Southwest and Jet Blue, what are they doing right? Well, for starters, they only fly one type of aircraft. United flies 18 different types of aircraft. Imagine the maintenance equipment that entails alone to maintain that many types of aircraft. If they had streamlined their operation they would have done much better in the past.

Fees? Let's see -- for US domestic travel in addition to the $3.00 per segment "flight segment" tax and the $2.50 per segment TSA tax there's the $5 or so per segment "Passenger Facility Charge" (that goes to the airport you fly from) and Federal tax of 7.5%.

As far as cameras being the solution to an almost lost wallet -- I find that laughable. Would you rather have your wallet or a picture of someone running off with it?

When I put stuff through the xray I make SURE that I'll be there on the other side when it comes out (ie there aren't 10 people ahead of me waiting for the xray to finish with their stuff). If the TSA dude wants to frisk me I make SURE I'm in view of my stuff and I tell them I need to be in view of my stuff. They are generally quite cooperative if you are firm about this.

[This message has been edited by xyzzy (edited 01-16-2003).]

Just curious as to why you would send your wallet through the xray? Besides, if a professional thief is going to take your wallet at the airport I doubt they are going to grab it and run into the secure area. In addition if you do not see your stuff then you should speak up and tell the screeners so.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
Just curious as to why you would send your wallet through the xray? Besides, if a professional thief is going to take your wallet at the airport I doubt they are going to grab it and run into the secure area. In addition if you do not see your stuff then you should speak up and tell the screeners so.</font>

Perhaps because we are told to? I had my boarding pass envelope in my hand once and was told it had to go through the x-ray machine.

How would they know?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
Just curious as to why you would send your wallet through the xray? Besides, if a professional thief is going to take your wallet at the airport I doubt they are going to grab it and run into the secure area. In addition if you do not see your stuff then you should speak up and tell the screeners so.</font>

I've had plenty of screeners demand that my wallet go thru the x-ray machines. As in - PUT YOUR WALLET THRU THE MACHINE NOW.

Still wonder why I'm predisposed to dislike some of the TSA screeners I encounter?

Others demand that I remove a jacket when the TSA itself says I can keep it on.

Others dump my change from the small change bin into the full-size bus tub for no reason - although I recently complained to a Super about that and stuck around for the chewin' out - that was worth it.

Act more professionally, all of you, and you might eventually earn respect. And that doesn't mean lots of patronizing "Please, Thank yous, Sirs and Ma'ams." Act professionally. After all, you're making many multiples of the market value for your position - act like it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
How would they know?</font>

How would who know what???

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tazi:
How would who know what???

</font>

How would anyone know that your wallet is still in your pocket? Only remove metal objects, all of them please! Yes everything, that includes the shoes that keep alarming every time that you walk through. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

My guess is that they want the wallet to go through the xray because they'll then be able to see any razor blades you may have hidden in it. I've never had them ask me to put my wallet through and I'd be rather nervous about parting with it for such a purpose.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
How would anyone know that your wallet is still in your pocket? Only remove metal objects, all of them please! Yes everything, that includes the shoes that keep alarming every time that you walk through. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif</font>


My shoes don't set the alarms off.

[This message has been edited by tazi (edited 01-16-2003).]

At ORD, you must hold your BP as you pass through the magnetometer. Also, I had to show the thing three times to get through security.

The TSA should standardize its policies throughout all airports. The current hodgepodge of proceedures makes them look incompetent.

tsadude,

At most of the airports I go through, the TSA demands that pockets be emptied, not just of metal, but of EVERYTHING. And many airports ask specifically that wallets be x-rayed. This is not the exception, but more like the rule.

For a couple of months now, I have been putting everything from my pockets (and my watch) into my carry-on bag and just breezing through the checkpoint. I also take off my shoes, because they really do have steel in them and set off the magnetometers. With those changes in my routine, I haven't had a hard time in quite a while. No wanding, no random checks, no hassle at all.

Bruce

This is a screener urban legend problem. Ask to see it in print if something seems out of the ordinary or have a supervisor explain it, but by no means get pissed off or you may be escorted out of the building by a LEO.

I don't particularly mind have my wallet scanned while inside my bag (and invisible to thieves). I just wondered what's SOP?

Bruce

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
Just curious as to why you would send your wallet through the xray? Besides, if a professional thief is going to take your wallet at the airport I doubt they are going to grab it and run into the secure area. In addition if you do not see your stuff then you should speak up and tell the screeners so.</font>


hmm, I was caught in that DFW mess last week where someone was able to pick up their item from the secondary screening machine and walk off into the terminal with it after the package tested positive on the 2ndary screening machine. As I recall he/the parcel was never found and the result being 3 terminals having to be recrscreened. If the TSA can let this slip through to a *secure area* what chance does my poor wallet stand?


[This message has been edited by stmontgo (edited 01-16-2003).]

This is a hard question to answer without getting into any SSI. I will say this: by putting your wallet into the pocket of your bag, you are following an excellent practice that I wish more people would adopt.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by bdschobel:
I don't particularly mind have my wallet scanned while inside my bag (and invisible to thieves). I just wondered what's SOP?

Bruce</font>


*Edited for spelling*

------------------
*Note: This statement does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of the Transportation Security Administration*

[This message has been edited by tmspa (edited 01-16-2003).]

I agree. It's best to shove all your pocket metal, cell phone, etc. into a pocket of your carry on bag, purse etc. It's convenient too. Who wants to have car keys, change, etc. in your pocket on a flight.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
How would anyone know that your wallet is still in your pocket? Only remove metal objects, all of them please! Yes everything, that includes the shoes that keep alarming every time that you walk through. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif</font>

I have not carried a wallet in 5 years. I have my credit cards and picture ID in one pocket with a rubber band, and cash in the other. I have NEVER taken them out, or even put them in my carryon. I do place pager and cell phone into carry on while standing in line as SOP.

And, unlike many I NEVER ask if that is okay. I just do it and keep moving.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by stmontgo:

hmm, I was caught in that DFW mess last week where someone was able to pick up their item from the secondary screening machine and walk off into the terminal with it after the package tested positive on the 2ndary screening machine. As I recall he/the parcel was never found and the result being 3 terminals having to be recrscreened. If the TSA can let this slip through to a *secure area* what chance does my poor wallet stand?


[This message has been edited by stmontgo (edited 01-16-2003).]</font>
This is not a perfect system run by perfect peolpe. Mistakes are going to happen. Murphy's Law of screening will prove that. The fact that they spoke up once that they realized something was wrong shows integrity is there.

I was flying from the east coast last week, and the TSA "suggested" that we take our shoes off through the security check point.

The person in front of me said "I'll risk it" and walked through just fine. I also had shoes without any metal, and walked through just fine. I also keep my wallet in my bag or my pocket, depending on how full my pocket is. My wallet has no metal and does not cause any problems.

I also have to say that flying the last week, I encountered no secondary screening at the gate. With this one vast improvement, my flying experience has improved greatly, and my approval of the TSA has increased greatly as well.

Here are my observations about the process and about the future of all these TSA jobs.

I traveled IAD-STL-SFO-STL-IAD the last few days. They asked me for ID twice at IAD, once at the ticket counter and once to enter the security checkpoint, but not after that. There was no random gate harrassment anywhere.

It is a pleasure, like when you have a pain in your leg that you have been living with that finally gets better.

At IAD they tried to get everyone to remove shoes but I didn't and had no problem. I had no secondary searches anywhere. It was relatively painless.

I watched them scanning checked bags. Boy that thing is slow. They must have been doing about 1 bag or so per *minute*. Every bag or two they stopped and fiddled. That is the lamest thing I've seen.

There is no earthly reason we need these high paid TSA types to do this kind of work. There are *still* too many standing around in my opinion. I am sure we will hear from some of you TSA folk and you will say you are overworked, but I see every security area appears overstaffed.

There are people to point to where you should go, people to help you unload your stuff, people to put it through the machine, people to point to where you should go when you leave the body metal detector, people to get you your stuff back from the carry on metal detector.

Am I the only one that thinks this is loony? How did we ever do it last year with about half the staffing levels and with people paid half the salary?

This is as far from rocket science as you can get.

And all the law enforcement people standing dead on their feet for hours, with absolutely nothing to do.

I cannot imagine the people who have these deadening jobs. They are mind killing. Almost as bad as sitting hour after hour on an airplane as a "sky marshal". I predict billions in worker's comp claims from job burnout.

I think the TSA people have some initial enthusiasm because after all these are largely not skilled workers who are earning $45K per year from a government job all of a sudden.

But the mind deadening aspects of this job and the feeling of entitlement will creep in and there will be large numbers on disability. These jobs are just too repetitive and boring.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by richard:
I think the TSA people have some initial enthusiasm because after all these are largely not skilled workers who are earning $45K per year from a government job all of a sudden.</font>

Where do you get that figure? I have a good friend who is a screener, and he only makes about 25K a year. Hardly overpaid in my opinion as he lives very modestly.

Regards, ACES II

ACES II, The number one ejection seat in service today. "When all else fails, you can rely on ACES"

edited to include quote and spelling.

[This message has been edited by ACES II (edited 01-18-2003).]

[This message has been edited by ACES II (edited 01-18-2003).]

My son and I flew EWR-CVG-LAX last night. I followed my usual routine of putting everything in my carry-on bag and zoomed through the whole security process with no problems. No hassle at all.

My son, on the (bad) advice of his mother, asked to have his camera and film hand-screened. For some reason, this seemed to upset the TSA people, who decided to put him through the whole nine yards: bag search, wanding, de-shoeing, explosives testing of the film canister (!), who knows what. It lasted at least 15-20 minutes. He's an 18-year-old extremely clean-cut young man, scrupulously polite, no drugs or alcohol, athletic, likely heading into the military very soon. He looks about as much like a terrorist as George Bush does.

Amazingly, my son never complained about any of this. I was very depressed watching it happen, and I had a running debate with an obnoxious TSA woman who kept asking me to move along, and I kept responding that I was waiting for my son. It wasn't my fault they took so long to screen him! I guess that's what you get when you ask to have your camera hand-screened. That'll teach him!

Bruce

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
[B] Where do you get that figure? I have a good friend who is a screener, and he only makes about 25K a year. Hardly overpaid in my opinion as he lives very modestly.</font>

All screeners are drastically overpaid relative to the market value for their work - otherwise screeners would not have received such a big boost in earnings when the TSA took over. Many screeners made $10k - $$12k pre-TSA, the real market value for the job.

It doesn't matter how your friend lives, it's how much he's paid.

FWAAA, show me ANYONE who can live in 10-12K a year. If thats all they were paid, the very people we need, would not do that work, and we would be back in the mess we were before, where I could walk through a metal detector, set it off, and nobody even take notice. That happened to me several times, I could have brought anything onto those aircraft, and, more importantly, anyone else could have too. Unfortunately, some did do just that.

ACES II, The number one ejection seat in service in the world toda. "When all else fails, you can rely on ACES."

For the record, of the previous screeners who tested for the TSA, only 3-5% actually passed the initial test to become TSA screeners. So if you think things were better then because you were not as bothered, consider the greater good of the country and put your own discomfort at being impositioned second. Frequent fliers may fly more often, but they make up a very small amount of the airlines passenger numbers and income as a whole. I suspect the airlines could survive without them.

ACES II, The number one ejection seat in service in the world today. "When all else fails, you can rely on ACES."

Well I'll tell you what my TSA dollars bought me yesterday. I got felt up because of the underwire in my bra -- the same g*d**** one I was wearing two weeks ago going through the very same check point.

Screw the TSA. I'm going commando thru security from now on.

Fokkers.

Now THAT was funny. I would love to see that happen. I think I will go to my local airport just to watch the proceedings sometime. Sounds like it could be a riot.

ACES II, The number one ejection seat in service in the world today. "If you have to pull the handle, make sure it is attached to an ACES."

edited for spelling.

[This message has been edited by ACES II (edited 01-18-2003).]

By the way, if you were anywhere else in New York City besides the airport, we could have stolen your wallet properly.

Bruce, I had a similar experience as your son last year. I packed rolls of film in transparent plastic containers in a transparent bag. I politely requested a handsearch.

After speaking to a supervisor, they finally agreed and they had me there for about 15 minutes checking each roll of film individually, making me take my shoes off, etc.

I think they are "teaching" us a lesson.

From now on, use digital film http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by richard:
Bruce, I had a similar experience as your son last year. I packed rolls of film in transparent plastic containers in a transparent bag. I politely requested a handsearch.

After speaking to a supervisor, they finally agreed and they had me there for about 15 minutes checking each roll of film individually, making me take my shoes off, etc.

I think they are "teaching" us a lesson.</font>

So, if I ask for a hand inspection, The one that is COMPLETELY within my rights, I get complete HARRASMENT.

BULLHOCKEY.

The next time anybody get's this type of harrasment for asking for something that is WITHIN the guidelines, get employee numbers and names. Not only of the idiots abusing their power, but of the entire supervisory team. (Of course, wait until they are done)

This type of behaiviour is unacceptable.

Let's hope this gets remedied soon. The TSA needs to remember that 99.99% of passengers are law abiding travellers. No need to harass the majority of the people who ask for hand inspection of film, etc... Just do a professional job and it will be appreciated by all...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
So, if I ask for a hand inspection, The one that is COMPLETELY within my rights, I get complete HARRASMENT.

BULLHOCKEY.

The next time anybody get's this type of harrasment for asking for something that is WITHIN the guidelines, get employee numbers and names. Not only of the idiots abusing their power, but of the entire supervisory team. (Of course, wait until they are done)

This type of behaiviour is unacceptable.</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
So if you think things were better then because you were not as bothered, consider the greater good of the country and put your own discomfort at being impositioned second."</font>
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
So, if I ask for a hand inspection, The one that is COMPLETELY within my rights, I get complete HARRASMENT.

BULLHOCKEY.

The next time anybody get's this type of harrasment for asking for something that is WITHIN the guidelines, get employee numbers and names. Not only of the idiots abusing their power, but of the entire supervisory team. (Of course, wait until they are done)

This type of behaiviour is unacceptable.</font>

You have the right to request that your film be hand inspected but expect a longer time for this. If they refuse, ask to talk to a Screening Manager. Keep your cool and do not get foolish about this or you will find your way out the front door. They will gladly give you their names and snicker about it the whole time.Why? As a supervisor, I have had one hell of a time getting rid of some real dirtbags. Good luck, hell I will send you some names if you could help me out.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
They will gladly give you their names and snicker about it the whole time.Why? As a supervisor, I have had one hell of a time getting rid of some real dirtbags. Good luck, hell I will send you some names if you could help me out.</font>

In other threads, the TSA apologists have repeatedly stated that the bad apples do indeed get weeded out.

Which is it?

Comrade Daschle should do the honorable thing and propose legislation to disband this joke of an agency that he alone shoved down our throats. "In order to profesionalize, you must federalize" has turned out to be the joke that many of us thought it would be.

It WASN'T funny, ACES. It was humiliating. How would you like some stranger feeling up your privates in front of hundreds of people ... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
Now THAT was funny. I would love to see that happen. I think I will go to my local airport just to watch the proceedings sometime. Sounds like it could be a riot.</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
In other threads, the TSA apologists have repeatedly stated that the bad apples do indeed get weeded out.

Which is it?

Comrade Daschle should do the honorable thing and propose legislation to disband this joke of an agency that he alone shoved down our throats. "In order to profesionalize, you must federalize" has turned out to be the joke that many of us thought it would be.

</font>
There are some people who should not be working with the TSA but I am sure that your business has them also like many others. Sorry to hear about your displeasure but the TSA isn't going anyplace and will probably increase in size and responsibility, happy flying. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
You have the right to request that your film be hand inspected but expect a longer time for this. If they refuse, ask to talk to a Screening Manager.</font>

Nobody refused. They just turned a quick look at my 18-year-old's quite ordinary camera into a thorough, 15-minute inspection of HIM, his bag, his shoes, etc., with no apparent justification. He did not set off the metal detector, and I am certain -- absolutely certain -- that none of the clothing or textbooks in his carry-on bag aroused any suspicion.

As far as I can tell, the TSA staff at EWR decided to punish my son for VERY politely requesting that his camera and film be hand-inspected, as his mother advised him to do. I guess they hope he learned a lesson and won't do that again.

Bruce

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by bdschobel:
Nobody refused. They just turned a quick look at my 18-year-old's quite ordinary camera into a thorough, 15-minute inspection of HIM, his bag, his shoes, etc., with no apparent justification. He did not set off the metal detector, and I am certain -- absolutely certain -- that none of the clothing or textbooks in his carry-on bag aroused any suspicion.

As far as I can tell, the TSA staff at EWR decided to punish my son for VERY politely requesting that his camera and film be hand-inspected, as his mother advised him to do. I guess they hope he learned a lesson and won't do that again.

Bruce</font>

Well, they certainly shouldn't have done that. Nor should they have done what they did to Essxjay. In these instances, I would document the circumstances as fully as possible, write a registered letter, and find a human being to speak with by phone after the incident.

Every organization I know of has bad apples, and the only way to weed them out is by very specific complaints.

The really amazing thing is that, unlike me, my son didn't seem to mind at all! Ah, the joys of being young and care-free.

Bruce

Brian,

tsadude stated that he is a supervisor and that asking for names is a waste of time. I am realistic and know that getting rid of a Federal Employee is next to impossible. If I felt strnogly enough about the situation, I would probably contact Fox News to see if they were interested in the story.

tsadude,

Yes, I know the TSA is not going anywhere. I stated that Comrade Daschle should do the HONORABLE thing. Given that he has no clue what that word means, I am not holding my breath.

As for the size of the TSA, I have a glimmer of hope that this little empire building project is going to be slowed down considerably. Congress has already questioned the employee count and I would hope that they clamp down hard. There are FAR too many TSA employee's standing around doing NOTHING each day. There is NO need to add any more.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
Brian,

tsadude stated that he is a supervisor and that asking for names is a waste of time. I am realistic and know that getting rid of a Federal Employee is next to impossible. If I felt strnogly enough about the situation, I would probably contact Fox News to see if they were interested in the story.

tsadude,

Yes, I know the TSA is not going anywhere. I stated that Comrade Daschle should do the HONORABLE thing. Given that he has no clue what that word means, I am not holding my breath.

As for the size of the TSA, I have a glimmer of hope that this little empire building project is going to be slowed down considerably. Congress has already questioned the employee count and I would hope that they clamp down hard. There are FAR too many TSA employee's standing around doing NOTHING each day. There is NO need to add any more. </font>

I don't think that asking for a supervisor is the best course, because that person is in the middle of the same circumstance, and works with the eubject employee every day.

While removing unionized employees, especially federal ones, is a real piece of work, there is no union for TSA employees, nor will there be in the forseeable future. So I am not as confident as you are in the inability to weed bad apples.

Incidentally, the size of the TSA is one area where we may potentially agree. The governemnt isn't very good at efficiency, and I am sure the TSA will be no different. It will be too big, and too expensive. As long as it is effective, I will forgive that, to a certain extent. But if they go too far, after they have had enough time to hone their procedures, I will complain, loudly and often, to the TSA and my representatives.

[This message has been edited by Brian (edited 01-20-2003).]

My recent TSA experiences:

Leaving BOS they decide to explosive test my laptop, just randomly they say. They then ask me to take off my sneakers - when I ask why, they said it is a new policy to test shoes if any other item is pulled for a secondary test. They were not xrayed, but they swabbed the inside of them with the explosive test pad. So much for wearing sneakers to avoid this hassle...they have never been checked before!

Leaving LAS, the secondary gate screening are still in effect! Luckily the 2nd guy in line was pulled and I avoided this. I thought this was gone for good!

I also find the checked bag screening rather strange. In BOS (where I thought they were screening in the baggage areas below) they have the explosive testers between every few check-in counters and they swab each bag before it goes below. In LAS, they make you take your checked bags (after getting tagged) over to a TSA drop-off where you just leave them (if unlocked). If locked, I think you have to stay until they are cleared.

Just seems to be getting worse... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
Now THAT was funny. I would love to see that happen. I think I will go to my local airport just to watch the proceedings sometime. Sounds like it could be a riot.

</font>

You'd love to see a woman being felt up at a security checkpoint by a tSA screener? Are you sure you don't work for the tSA already? Any value your opinions had before went to zero.

[This message has been edited by tazi (edited 01-20-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tazi:
You'd love to see a woman being felt up at a security checkpoint by a tSA screener? Are you sure you don't work for the tSA already? Any value your opinions had before went to zero. Of course, they had very little before.

</font>

This is a very awkward situation for both people. If I ever thought that someone was taken advantage of I would report this immediately and do evrything possible to assist in pressing charges. I am a horses ... to those of you that whine about waiting in line and such, but I will not tolerate abuse by a screener.

Well, leaving BOS today, Terminal E, I committed 3 henious crimes:

1. Placed my jacket into the bin that is apparently specially designed for laptops.

2. Waited for my laptop to go into the x-ray machine before proceeding through the metal detector, in spite of being ordered to go ahead.

Since I had the audacity to commit these two crimes, I was subjected to the secondary harassment. When I asked for the checkpoint supervisor, it turned out to be the same woman who ordered me to proceed through the metal detector before my laptop went through the x-ray. She told me I was selected for the secondary "Screening" due to my being UNCOOPERATIVE! I then committed the third crime by asking for her name and employee number along with that of the FSD. After providing me with her name, I had to ask again for the name of the FSD. At this point she threatened to have a state trooper escort me out.

I figured the best way to handle this head case was to go to the trooper myself. I asked for her supervisor and he gladly pointed me in the direction of her supervisor.

After talking to her supervisor, he confirmed that I was indeed within my rights to wait for the laptop to go into the x-ray and that he would speak to the woman about her attitude. Somehow, I doubt this is going to happen. Attitudes like hers are an environmental thing. If they made a head case like this a supervisor, then I bet her higher-ups are head cases too.

Tomorrow, I call the toll-free feedback line to find out why BOS is ignoring procedure and to find out how to file a formal complaint.

CG, were you in an Elite security line? At BWI that seems to get you the random search automatically. I got chosen because I followed to closely behind the person in front of me.

I was also separated from my belongings during this random harrassment. Sure, there were windows to look through but I couldn't see my things through the people standing in front of them. The guy next to me in the search area was also asking why he was chosen since he hadn't set off the machine.

Before anyone else takes my comments the wrong way. I should have clarified that seeing essxjay going "commando" would be what I would like to see. Seeing someone being "felt" up is not something I would want to see. However, having someone check an underwire bra is not quite the same as being felt up IMHO.

ACES II, The number one ejection seat in service in the world today. "When in doubt, ACES will get you out."

P.S. tazi, your opinions carry just as much weight and credibility as mine, zilch in the great scheme of things.

My son and I checked in at LAX tonight for the red-eye back to JFK. Following my usual routine, I zoomed through security, attracting absolutely no attention at all. My son again asked that his camera and film be hand-checked. The TSA guy said that hand-inspection was unnecessary. My son asked him to do it, anyway. He called someone else over to do the hand-inspection, with no apparent hard feelings. The camera and film were hand-inspected and given back to my son with general cheerfulness. Big difference from EWR!

Maybe that's why Brian has so few complaints about the TSA. He uses LAX for his travels! Seriously, everything was very professional here tonight.

Bruce

LAX-SJC - idiotic "random security" in place. Meanwhile, the security checkpoint at Terminal 3 is waaaay backed up. Why? Screeners randomly harassing people who have already passed the checkpoint.

The Legacy of Norman the Jackass lives on...

------------------
"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
However, having someone check an underwire bra is not quite the same as being felt up IMHO.
</font>

To clarify, I was using the phrase felt-up as a euphemism for checking an underwire. By "checking" I mean that the screener was using the back of her hand along the metalic part through my clothing. What's so absurd about it is that it's still unclear about the nature of the metal unless the screener can actually see it!!! So why bother in the first place?

Re-thinking my decision from late last Friday to go commando, I decided that I have the right to wear my usual undergarments free from harassment.

So coming back from BOS today, I decided to test my hypothesis that it was my dress shoes that initially set off the magnometer back at PDX and not any other article of clothing. Even though I was wearing non-dress shoes this time I took them off just the same. I breezed through.

What I'm thinking now is that back in PDX on Friday, once my shoes were off they used the more senstive wand for the rest of my body, which sure enough picked up the smaller amount of metal left in my clothing.

BTW, one other tidbit to add to last Friday's events ... I was wearing a calf-length skirt and the screener insisted on wanding me between my legs up to my knees. Truly insult added to injury. I'm thinking of going to a local radio talk show host I happen to know with this stuff. Between my experience and Punki's well-publicized event with PDX screeners AND the ex-felon who was hired by the TSA last Oct. to work at PDX, this could generate some effective discussion. (Then again, it couldn't ... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif)

[This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 01-21-2003).]

essxjay; In defense of the screener, how could she know whether there was something under the metal of your bra without checking? Same with running the wand up to your knees. If I was going to try to get a weapon through, what better way than to hide it under something that will set the wand off. When it beeps...."Oh, thats just my belt buckle." I imagine thats why they check, just to make sure there is nothing under the metal. A woman could certainly strap a gun to her upper thigh, as could a man. I have been wanded several times, having to open my belt buckle so as to gain access to the area behind the buckle. I guess I could hide a small knife in there and attribute the alarm to my belt buckle. For me, it is not a problem as that rarely happens. Now that I know to either take my shoes off before going through the walkthrough, or wear sneakers, I imagine it will happen even less frequently.

ACES II, the number one ejection seat in service in the world today. "If you have to have a handle between your legs, make sure it is attached to an ACES."

edited for spelling

[This message has been edited by ACES II (edited 01-21-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by essxjay:
What I'm thinking now is that back in PDX on Friday, once my shoes were off they used the more senstive wand for the rest of my body, which sure enough picked up the smaller amount of metal left in my clothing. </font>

The wands are definitely more sensitive. I forgot I had sunglasses on my head and set off the metal detector. My shoes, which I never have a problem with, beeped when she ran the wand over them. You should be thankful you were wearing a skirt. I was wearing jeans and got wanded all the way up to, and touching, my crotch. I was not pleased about this at all!

I also was plucked for additional wanding when I hadn't even set off the metal detector. This to me is absolutely pointless. What do they hope to achieve by wanding for more metal if there were not significant amounts on your person to set off the metal detector? I would be interested to hear from some of the TSA people what they find, and need to confiscate, in these situations.

It is not getting better at all as far as I am concerned.

Get this....

Yesterday at the security checkpoint at Fort Lauderdale Terminal One, Concourse B....

A concessions worker walked up to the checkpoint and one of the TSA people and asked, "You have anymore lighters you've confiscated? I forgot mine again." Then she asked if they'd confiscated anything else lately she might be interested in.

I guess we know where all that stuff is going....

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by bdschobel:
My son and I checked in at LAX tonight for the red-eye back to JFK. Following my usual routine, I zoomed through security, attracting absolutely no attention at all. My son again asked that his camera and film be hand-checked. The TSA guy said that hand-inspection was unnecessary. My son asked him to do it, anyway. He called someone else over to do the hand-inspection, with no apparent hard feelings. The camera and film were hand-inspected and given back to my son with general cheerfulness. Big difference from EWR!

Maybe that's why Brian has so few complaints about the TSA. He uses LAX for his travels! Seriously, everything was very professional here tonight.

Bruce</font>

Good grief, Bruce, you just now realized this? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif The people who work at an airport live in that area. That's why the New York airports employ rude people and the rest of the country doesn't.

The people who work at EWR, be they TSA, the original private screeners, the rental car people, etc., are the rudest and laziest people I have ever seen in my life. I have had it going through that airport, and I refuse to ever visit EWR again.

I'll admit LGA isn't the best airport in the world, but I'll take curtness over rudeness any day.

Hey, JS, I used to live in NYC (as did you) and I resemble that remark about rudeness. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

See your wrong YOU DON'T HAVE TO FLY!!

Try walking or taking a bus......

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by mmmsigns:
See your wrong YOU DON'T HAVE TO FLY!!

Try walking or taking a bus......</font>

which one of us is wrong and about which statement are you referring???

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
essxjay; In defense of the screener, how could she know whether there was something under the metal of your bra without checking? </font>

You've just confirmed my point. How could she know it was just an underwire unless she actually lifted up my shirt!! Which she didn't!!!! That renders this whole back-of-the hand thing useless.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by essxjay:
You've just confirmed my point. How could she know it was just an underwire unless she actually lifted up my shirt!! Which she didn't!!!! That renders this whole back-of-the hand thing useless.</font>

You know, humans do have a sense of touch and can distinguish objects by their feel. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, swims like a duck, and doesn't have a tendency to explode....then it's probably a DUCK!

The back of the hand has far, far fewer sense receptors than the finger tips.

AGAIN, the screener had no way of knowing whether the underwire was actually an underwire. The only way to verify that would be by sight.

What part of the concept of "inspection" is confusing to you? I don't know how much more reasoning you can possibly refuse to accept before you must concede self-deception.

OMNI to tazi: e-mail me privately when you get a chance. I have a couple of ideas related to this thread I wanted to bounce off you. Thanks.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by essxjay:
The back of the hand has far, far fewer sense receptors than the finger tips.

AGAIN, the screener had no way of knowing whether the underwire was actually an underwire. The only way to verify that would be by sight.

What part of the concept of "inspection" is confusing to you? I don't know how much more reasoning you can possibly refuse to accept before you must concede self-deception.</font>


Are you suggesting that we should make every female with an underwire take off their shirt and expose whatever is alarming the metal detector? Isn't it enough that the screener has determined (by touch) that it is a thin metal object, very similar to an underwire, not a bomb, not a gun, and too small to cause any physical harm?

I'm suggesting nothing of the kind. I'm taking the inspection argument to its most absurd.

It's the touching of my breasts that is inappropriate. There is absolutely no excuse for it, especially since, as I painstakingly explained in several other posts in this thread, that I wore the exact same bra at the exact same two checkpoints two weeks ago without incident, and again upon my return home from BOS last night without incident.

The screener was out of line, knew it, and used the "I'm just doing my job" backstop to justify her actions. I could tell by the look in her eyes that she knew what she was doing wasn't right.

The madness must stop.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by essxjay:
I'm suggesting nothing of the kind. I'm taking the inspection argument to its most absurd.

It's the touching of my breasts that is inappropriate. There is absolutely no excuse for it, especially since, as I painstakingly explained in several other posts in this thread, that I wore the exact same bra at the exact same two checkpoints two weeks ago without incident, and again upon my return home from BOS last night without incident.

The screener was out of line, knew it, and used the "I'm just doing my job" backstop to justify her actions. I could tell by the look in her eyes that she knew what she was doing wasn't right.

The madness must stop.</font>

How was the screener out of line? Just as you say that she can't be certain that it is only a underwire, she also can't be certain at how many other checkpoints you've worn an underwire, or how many you've taken off your shoes to avoid additional screening. The simple fact is, she is not to blame. She is following an order to resolve every handheld metal detector alarm, and that is exactly what she did.

Use some common sense.

"I was just following orders" isn't an acceptable defense in the military per the 1949 Geneva Convention, and it's a concept that's certainly applicable in a civilian context during a time of non-war.

Besides, she knew it was my shoes that set off the magnometer to begin with, not the underwire. Don't hide behind the hubris of TSA doctrine. It insults your intelligence.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by essxjay:
Use some common sense.

"I was just following orders" isn't an acceptable defense in the military per the 1949 Geneva Convention, and it's a concept that's certainly applicable in a civilian context during a time of non-war.

Besides, she knew it was my shoes that set off the magnometer to begin with, not the underwire. Don't hide behind the hubris of TSA doctrine. It insults your intelligence. </font>

How is she supposed to know it was your shoes? I'm not saying that insane orders that some supervisor pulls out of their arse for no reason should neccessarily be followed. However, the orders this screener is acting on are in writing. What is she supposed to do? Ignore them and risk loosing her job? I don't think so.

The problem is, the hand wands are more sensitive to metal than the metal detector you walk through. I found this out last Friday. They should be set the same. If they were, only the object that caused the metal detector to go off would beep while being wanded. No bra inspection would be required.

It is beyond rediculous now. The TSA should start focusing on those areas they have left unchecked and stop with the finetooth combing for harmless metal objects.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by essxjay:
OMNI to tazi: e-mail me privately when you get a chance. I have a couple of ideas related to this thread I wanted to bounce off you. Thanks.</font>

I emailed you from work this morning. I added my email to my profile as well if you want to reach me at home.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tmspa:
How is she supposed to know it was your shoes? I'm not saying that insane orders that some supervisor pulls out of their arse for no reason should neccessarily be followed. However, the orders this screener is acting on are in writing. What is she supposed to do? Ignore them and risk loosing her job? I don't think so.</font>

By using some common sense I meant that she didn't need to call a supervisor over after wanding my chest _after_ I took off my dress (read "steel-shanked" ) shoes. The screener was a large-breasted woman herself and I'm sure is fairly familiar with the fact that many, many, MANY women wear underwire bras, especially since they've become quite popular again in the last decade or so.

I'm through with my attempts at logic here. You either remain unconvinced by the evidence presented or peril in your self-delusion just to have a job, ala Atlas Shrugged (http://www.objectivismstore.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=26).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by essxjay:
By using some common sense I meant that she didn't need to call a supervisor over after wanding my chest _after_ I took off my dress (read "steel-shanked" ) shoes. The screener was a large-breasted woman herself and I'm sure is fairly familiar with the fact that many, many, MANY women wear underwire bras, especially since they've become quite popular again in the last decade or so.

I'm through with my attempts at logic here. You either remain unconvinced by the evidence presented or peril in your self-delusion just to have a job, ala Atlas Shrugged (http://www.objectivismstore.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=26).</font>

Or if you are busy, just get the Cliff's Notes (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764585568/qid=1043282055/). That way you will stop perishing in your own self delusion sooner.

[This message has been edited by Brian (edited 01-22-2003).]

Thanks for posting that, Brian. I'd forgotten to mention it.

This particular Cliff's Notes is soundly praised by all who reviewed it at the Amazon link posted above as one of the few CN's worth buying.

More ...

BOOKS THAT MADE A DIFFERENCE IN READERS' LIVES

Respondents to the Survey of Lifetime Reading Habits, conducted [fall 1991] for the Book-of-the-Month Club and the Library of Congress' Center for the Book, cited the following when asked to name a book that had made a difference in their lives:

1 - The Bible**
2 - Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand
3 - The Road Less Traveled, by M. Scott Peck
4 - To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee
5 - The Lord of the Rings, by J.R.R. Tolkien
6 - Gone With the Wind, by Margaret Mitchell
7 - How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie
8 - The Book of Mormon

Five titles were tied for the next place:

The Feminine Mystique, by Betty Friedan
A Gift from the Sea, by Anne Morrow Lindbergh
Man's Search for Meaning, by Victor Frankl
Passages, by Gail Sheehy
When Bad Things Happen to Good People, by Harold S. Kushner

** A large gap exists between the #1 book and the rest of the list.

Of course, a 2,000-year lead is nice advantage.

http://www.loc.gov/loc/cfbook/bklists.html

&lt;edited for spelling ... ess&gt;

[This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 01-22-2003).]

Ess, I'm confused. It sounds like you are saying that the screener should have either not bothered to check for the underwire, or asked you to succumb to a strip search which would have been more thorough??

Even if the screener "knew" that your shoes set off the machine, it would hardly be thorough to only check your shoes. If that were the mentality then anyone wanting to strap a knife to their thigh would just come through in steel toed boots.

From your description it doesnt sound like anything inappropriate happened in this situation. Annoying certainly, (it's happened to me too) but not inappropriate. Perhaps the "I know I'm doing something wrong" look was more of a "I wish she'd just taken off the dang shoes so I wouldnt have to be doing this right now"

After she took off her shoes, they could have let her go back through the metal detector to see if it went off again. Or, they could just have the wands set to the same sensitivity that the metal detector is. There is no reason they have to do this crap.

If you are going to travel, do not wear metal ANYTHING through the walk through, to include body piercings. If you know that your shoes will alarm, then take them off before entering the MAG. I know of women who put their wire bras on (in the restroom) after they pass through. How do I know this? They tell us.

I don't understand. Am I to remove the metal zipper from my pants and sew it back on in the restroom after passing through security?

Here's a better idea: If the TSA is going to screen travelers it shouldn't set the metal detectors so sensitive that wearing clothes is enough to set them off. Playing guess-what-article-of-clothing-set-the-metal-detector-off-this-time doesn't prove anything about terrorists or lack thereof; it just wastes everybody's time.

That said, at Fort Myers the TSA had a machine you could stand on which would beep if your shoes contained metal. They also had a tiny little X-ray machine just for shoes. Cute but gosh, what a waste of money...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
If you are going to travel, do not wear metal ANYTHING through the walk through, to include body piercings. </font>

Oh, bunk! I'm not going NOT wear Levis or my diamond studs or an underwire bra when I travel just to satisfy some bureaucrat who's cowtowing to the mewling of infrequent-travelling scardeycats. Try again.

I guess you guys take everything literally. Metal detectors are calibrated at a certain level.If it was set for every piece of metal that came through, you might as well be naked.You guys know what sets it off and if you choose to wear it then that's your choice. Be prepared to get searched. If just one piece of metal alerts your entire body will be wanded. Why would you only search one place that you think has the metal? It's not rocket science, but a process of elimination. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/rolleyes.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
If you are going to travel, do not wear metal ANYTHING through the walk through, to include body piercings. If you know that your shoes will alarm, then take them off before entering the MAG. I know of women who put their wire bras on (in the restroom) after they pass through. How do I know this? They tell us.</font>

My shoes don't set off the metal detector but they do beep when wanded. I got pulled aside for wanding last week even though I hadn't set the detector off. I can tell you, I will not be seaprated from my things again for this BS like I was then.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
You guys know what sets it off and if you choose to wear it then that's your choice.</font>

No we don't know what sets it off. If we did, the same things would set off all machines, but they don't. When TSA can calibrate and set all machines to the same level of sensitivity, THEN you can come back and say we (may) know what sets them off. That, f course, doesn't include a new pair of shoes. Last time I checked my shoe store did not have a TSA approved magnetic detection device to show me if my new shoes would set off your fancy machines.

Please be a little more realistic in your comments.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tazi:
My shoes don't set off the metal detector but they do beep when wanded. I got pulled aside for wanding last week even though I hadn't set the detector off. I can tell you, I will not be seaprated from my things again for this BS like I was then.

</font>
You should not have bee seperated from your stuff. How many times will you keep typing that? Refuse to be wanded if it happens again until you see your stuff, OK! The horse is dead about your stuff http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/tongue.gif



[This message has been edited by tsadude (edited 01-24-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by L-1011:
No we don't know what sets it off. If we did, the same things would set off all machines, but they don't. When TSA can calibrate and set all machines to the same level of sensitivity, THEN you can come back and say we (may) know what sets them off. That, f course, doesn't include a new pair of shoes. Last time I checked my shoe store did not have a TSA approved magnetic detection device to show me if my new shoes would set off your fancy machines.

Please be a little more realistic in your comments.</font>
More realistic! How about when a guy for example walks through with a money clip,metal ink pens, stainless watch,cell phone, beeper, studded belt, ear rings/body piercings, $20 worth of change and then gets a case of the a$$ when he sets off the beeper. For your shoes? Buy a magnet at the dollar store and see if it sticks to your shoes.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
You should not have bee seperated from your stuff. How many times will you keep typing that? Refuse to be wanded if it happens again until you see your stuff, OK! The horse is dead about your stuff http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/tongue.gif
</font>

No, the horse is not dead about my stuff! How about you explain to me why I was not supposed to be separated from it because it is 'SOP' at BWI if you have to be pulled aside for wand abuse. I did ask several times to have my stuff brought to where I could see it. I was told to watch it through the window which was impossible. your f**king agency is a joke!

Since you seem to know very little of what your agency is doing, let me enlighten you once again:

[i]Step 3. Secondary screening

Secondary screening occurs when an individual sets off the alarm on the metal detector, or if he or she is selected for additional screening. This screening includes a hand-wand inspection in conjunction with a pat-down inspection.

If you must go through a secondary screening, the screener will direct you from the metal detector to a screening station where he or she will brief you on the next steps. ...

While you will be separated from your carry-on baggage during this process, every effort will be made to help you maintain visual contact with your carry-ons.

http://www.tsa.dot.gov/public/display?theme=52

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tazi:
No, the horse is not dead about my stuff! How about you explain to me why I was not supposed to be separated from it because it is 'SOP' at BWI if you have to be pulled aside for wand abuse. I did ask several times to have my stuff brought to where I could see it. I was told to watch it through the window which was impossible. your f**king agency is a joke!

Since you seem to know very little of what your agency is doing, let me enlighten you once again:

[i]Step 3. Secondary screening

Secondary screening occurs when an individual sets off the alarm on the metal detector, or if he or she is selected for additional screening. This screening includes a hand-wand inspection in conjunction with a pat-down inspection.

If you must go through a secondary screening, the screener will direct you from the metal detector to a screening station where he or she will brief you on the next steps. ...

While you will be separated from your carry-on baggage during this process, every effort will be made to help you maintain visual contact with your carry-ons.

http://www.tsa.dot.gov/public/display?theme=52

</font>

Get some intestinal fortitude and demand it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
For your shoes? Buy a magnet at the dollar store and see if it sticks to your shoes.</font>

Do your machines detect iron or metal? A magnet will not stick to aluminum, titanium, etc. but I thinnk your machines will beep. Now what?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
Get some intestinal fortitude and demand it.

</font>

Thank you for your insightful response http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/rolleyes.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by L-1011:
Do your machines detect iron or metal? A magnet will not stick to aluminum, titanium, etc. but I thinnk your machines will beep. Now what?</font>
Maybe your answer is here http://www.howstuffworks.com/airport-security.htm

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
Maybe your answer is here http://www.howstuffworks.com/airport-security.htm

</font>

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/eek.gif So this is how the TSA was trained?!?!



[This message has been edited by tazi (edited 01-24-2003).]

As far as shoes go.....

Just a thought... but when you wear a new pair to the airport, try removing them and running them thru the X-Ray. Ask the screener if there's metal shanks in your shoes.
I do that for passengers at my checkpoint all the time.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tazi:
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/eek.gif So this is how the TSA was trained?!?!

[This message has been edited by tazi (edited 01-24-2003).]</font>

Yes it is ;-)

[This message has been edited by tsadude (edited 01-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by tsadude (edited 01-24-2003).]

I wish I could be a fly on the wall whenever tazi goes through security. I bet it is quite a sight indeed. I wonder what his blood pressure hits. If and when his time does come, I bet it will be while he is being wanded. So many people take themselves so seriously, it is always good to find a place where that is not the case...LOL

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
I wish I could be a fly on the wall whenever tazi goes through security. I bet it is quite a sight indeed. I wonder what his blood pressure hits. If and when his time does come, I bet it will be while he is being wanded. So many people take themselves so seriously, it is always good to find a place where that is not the case...LOL</font>

Tazi is a she and perhaps you should read the TOS because this, and several other of your posts are bordering on personal attacks.

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Must...swat...ants...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by L-1011:
No we don't know what sets it off. If we did, the same things would set off all machines, but they don't. When TSA can calibrate and set all machines to the same level of sensitivity, THEN you can come back and say we (may) know what sets them off. That, f course, doesn't include a new pair of shoes. Last time I checked my shoe store did not have a TSA approved magnetic detection device to show me if my new shoes would set off your fancy machines.

Please be a little more realistic in your comments.</font>




[This message has been edited by tmspa (edited 01-24-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tazi:
Tazi is a she and perhaps you should read the TOS because this, and several other of your posts are bordering on personal attacks.

</font>

As do yours. Funny how anyone who does not agree totally with the "liberty set" are the ones who are the rule breakers.

What, if any, is your point here?

How does this bear on the present discussion?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
I wish I could be a fly on the wall whenever tazi goes through security. I bet it is quite a sight indeed. I wonder what his blood pressure hits. If and when his time does come, I bet it will be while he is being wanded. So many people take themselves so seriously, it is always good to find a place where that is not the case...LOL</font>



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

I know this is a old topic but thought I would post to it.

Tazi,

The WTMD does detect your pants, glasses and such. But there isn't enough mass there to set you off. The WTMD are set high no doubt about it. But it does pick up those items but does not make you ring. The difference between a HHMD and WTMD is a computer in the WTMD.

The HHMD is smaller and it detects metal in certain areas of the body. They always pick up metal on pants , even set low. I know this from usuing the wands right after 9/11, they werent automatically reset.

The best for us to clear rings is to have you divest of stuff in that area then rescreen it. Rings again, we pat it down , with the front or back of our hand.

I understand where your coming from Essxjay(sp?). I screen guys and the procedure about a year ago was to patdown right on the fly if it rang. I hated it, and was thankful they changed it.

The HHMD, and WTMD are two different machines but they pick up the same thing. Your pants do set that machine off Tazi but not enough to make it ring.

Do you complain about paying your doctor to monitor your health? Do you complain about your lawyers charging thousands of dolars to lose your case? And what do you charge for the services in your profession?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by supervision_tsa:
Do you complain about paying your doctor to monitor your health? Do you complain about your lawyers charging thousands of dolars to lose your case? And what do you charge for the services in your profession?</font>

What kind of inane questions are these? If my doctor/lawyer/other professional wants to do something to me and I tell him/her NO, whatever it is doesn't happen.

I am unfortunately not free to tell the TSA not to stupidly harass me because I am blackmailed with the prospect of not flying.

If my professional doctor/lawyer/other was as stupid, incompetent and un-American as the TSA, I'd fire their ... in a heartbeat and replace them with someone who wasn't.

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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry