I'm tired of the profiling and stupid TSA violations of my rights. I just found this link to stop write your congressmen/women to show your opposition to CAPPS II, their new profiling medium. It's on the ACLU site, but I find that they're one of the few organizations left trying to fight for our rights. Here's the link: http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12108&c=206

If enough of us fed up flyers cry out, maybe this will work. I'm tired of getting secondary screened. This blacklisting thing is driving me nuts. At least, Truman had the common sense to get rid of McCarthy. Who will be our champion to stop the madness? I'm tired of seeing our rights being stripped.

People tend to see the ACLU in the wrong light. You might not always share their views on every subject, but every once in awhile, one will come along that you agree on. This is one of them. Use their resources http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

Here's another ACLU resource against the new Patriot Act. http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=11904&c=206

We have to make our stand somewhere.

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Tired of the threat of blacklisting and profiling?

Stop the CAPPS II madness.

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/Forum57/HTML/000064.html.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by SFOJFK:
I'm tired of the profiling and stupid TSA violations of my rights. I just found this link to stop write your congressmen/women to show your opposition to CAPPS II, their new profiling medium. It's on the ACLU site, but I find that they're one of the few organizations left trying to fight for our rights. Here's the link: http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12108&c=206

If enough of us fed up flyers cry out, maybe this will work. I'm tired of getting secondary screened. This blacklisting thing is driving me nuts. At least, Truman had the common sense to get rid of McCarthy. Who will be our champion to stop the madness? I'm tired of seeing our rights being stripped.</font>
Exactly what rights have been stripped? The right to carry a weapon abaord and aircraft? Is that a right? I'd like to know, what rights guaranteed by the constitution are being denied you? Or, is it just a case of you being inconvenienced? And, is that a right? Too many people wail about their rights when in fact, they are only waaaaing because someone made them live up to their responsibility as a citizen. As for the aclu, they've done more damage to us than good..they are way "out there" and never balance common sense and the greater good against individual freedoms.
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/biggrin.gif

Think what you want about the ACLU, porkyboy, but the CAPPSII system is an invasion of privacy. This is going much too far and much further than was spelled out in the legislature that 'supposedly' allows them to do this.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

I am a firm believer that profiling is an important tool in securing safe and reliable transportation. I can't see how anyone could think differently in today's travel climate. I know of noone in my travel circles who has a problem with it.

JLL5100, you don't travel with these guys. They are against every security directive that the TSA has put in place, and some even take that out on individual screeners. So be careful what you post on here if you have thin skin, they can be very vociferous.

Actually, most of us are against every stupid security directive that the TSA has put in place. Sadly, the majority of the so-called "enhancements" to security imposed on travelers by the TSA are exceedingly stupid.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
JLL5100, you don't travel with these guys. They are against every security directive that the TSA has put in place, and some even take that out on individual screeners. So be careful what you post on here if you have thin skin, they can be very vociferous.</font>



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JLL5100:
I am a firm believer that profiling is an important tool in securing safe and reliable transportation. I can't see how anyone could think differently in today's travel climate. I know of noone in my travel circles who has a problem with it.</font>

Me too! If our TSA leadership would simply take a close look at our enemies (think young, male, militant Islamic fundamentalist terrorists) instead of treating every loyal patriotic US citizen as a potential terrorist, I'd be much happier. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

But pigs will fly long before Adm Loy decides to do what's right.

Even when TSA is long gone, and the private companies have regained control of security screening, CAPPS or some form of it will still exist. CAPPS is not a TSA invention, as suggested by some posters.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by FWAAA:
Me too! If our TSA leadership would simply take a close look at our enemies (think young, male, militant Islamic fundamentalist terrorists) instead of treating every loyal patriotic US citizen as a potential terrorist, I'd be much happier.</font>

Isn't that exactly what CAPPS is trying to do? Focus more attention on those who are more likely to be a threat and less on those who are not?

You aren't suggesting that they should go soley on outward appearance (age, sex and arab appearance) are you?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cmhscreener:
Even when TSA is long gone, and the private companies have regained control of security screening, CAPPS or some form of it will still exist. CAPPS is not a TSA invention, as suggested by some posters.</font>

No, the original system was actually invented by a pilot. Recent changes to the existing system are, however, due to TSA mandates as are the changes being suggested for CAPPS II. I have no problem with everyone being run through the current system instead of just persons checking bags as was done before. I also have no problem with them sharing the passenger information now available on CAPPS with government agencies or the other way around. This is all that was suggested in the Aviation and Transportation Security Act as a way to improve the system. Unfortunately, they are suggesting something much more than that now with the introduction of all the new information they want to use as criteria in the system.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

[This message has been edited by tazi (edited 03-18-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LarryJ:
Isn't that exactly what CAPPS is trying to do? Focus more attention on those who are more likely to be a threat and less on those who are not?

You aren't suggesting that they should go soley on outward appearance (age, sex and arab appearance) are you?</font>

Of course not. That would be wrong. Even though our current enemies are generally understood to be young, male, militant muslim fanatics. Spare me the Tim McVeigh and Unabomber references - since our current scheme doesn't do anything to locate these guys anyway (as long as they're sharp and pointy object free, of course).

What I'm suggesting is that we start with US citizenship as a natural selector - and subject those unable or unwilling to provide proof of it to greater scrutiny than our current system provides.

Why citizenship as a proxy for "not-likely-to-be-a-terrorist-threat"?

For the same reason that plenty of people demanded that the TSA checkpoint personnel be US citizens - most people equate citizenship with some level of trustworthiness.

And the additional scrutiny applied to aliens wouldn't simply involve extra-intensive searches looking for stuff, it would involve sophisticated questioning much like that employed by Israel's airport security system.

But I'm sure Mineta and his protege Adm Loy would find fault with this sensible solution.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by FWAAA:
Me too! If our TSA leadership would simply take a close look at our enemies (think young, male, militant Islamic fundamentalist terrorists) instead of treating every loyal patriotic US citizen as a potential terrorist, I'd be much happier. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

But pigs will fly long before Adm Loy decides to do what's right.</font>

****, I didn't know that Timothy McVeigh was Islamic. I guess you learn something new everyday. Don't forget the recruited American Citizen Islamic fundamentalists. They are easy to spot!
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
****, I didn't know that Timothy McVeigh was Islamic. </font>

Or The John Walker Lynn (Lynd?) guy and Richard Reid?

THis whole civil liberties argument is really rather pathetic. We are going to have profiling, and I for one agree that it makes sense and is about 20 years or so too late.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
****, I didn't know that Timothy McVeigh was Islamic. I guess you learn something new everyday. Don't forget the recruited American Citizen Islamic fundamentalists. They are easy to spot!
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif</font>

Ok, enough of this Timmy comparison! He didn't try and hijack a plane .. he parked on a street. Why then is it that airline passengers are the ones subjected to the most intrusive security and not everyone else who drives a car?



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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

Cause everyone keeps saying that we should only be looking at arab men, thats why. "I am a middle-aged american male, do I look like a terrorist?" Of course you do, cause a terrorist can look like anyone. The russians have been fighting islamic terrorists for years, good friends of al-queda, and they look just like middle aged american males. If everyones intentions could be seen, there would be no need for screening, but that is not the case.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tazi:
Ok, enough of this Timmy comparison! He didn't try and hijack a plane .. he parked on a street. Why then is it that airline passengers are the ones subjected to the most intrusive security and not everyone else who drives a car?

Better take a look at the ethnic make up of Islamic american civilians. We had enough in the Army that special religious services were held for them.Sure didn't see any that resembled any young Arab men. That's the difference. Terrorists do not fit one race, color, religion, or sex.

</font>

How sad my last post was proven to be correct.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
How sad my last post was proven to be correct.</font>

Before we rush to judgment (and we NEVER do that on FT!!!), recall for a moment how many US officers and senior NCOs in Vietnam were killed in action by being shot in the back. I think I remember an ROTC instructor telling us that they called it "fragging."