Random harassment on CVG-SDF flight today. A total of six harassers required to do this unnecessary job, too. The TSA agents were the ones selecting the harassees this time instead of the gate agent. Playing spot the air marshal was a breeze, too. He was already on the plane in coach, third row back in the aisle, even before F boarded. At least he was not occupying an F seat.

What a disgusting waste of money and violation of people's civil liberties. Hey, Loy! Any particular shade of yellow that you're waiting for? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/mad.gif

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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

[This message has been edited by Spiff (edited 03-03-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Spiff:
Random harassment on CVG-SDF flight today. A total of six harassers required to do this unnecessary job, too. The TSA agents were the ones selecting the harassees this time instead of the gate agent. Playing spot the air marshal was a breeze, too. He was already on the plane in coach, third row back in the aisle, even before F boarded. At least he was not occupying an F seat.

What a disgusting waste of money and violation of people's civil liberties. Hey, Loy! Any particular shade of yellow that you're waiting for? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/mad.gif


You want to know something ironic Spiff? I was an instructor/trainer at your airport when it federalized. They must have learned their job well. If you want to irratate the checkpoint people here is something you can do. When you are leaving and pass under the exit alarm device, raise your hand up to scratch your head very quickly. That alarm will go off every time http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

</font>



[This message has been edited by tsadude (edited 03-04-2003).]

I don't want to spend any more time with any of the TSA than I have to already.

I dress and pack appropriately; I just want to be left the hell alone.

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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Spiff:
I don't want to spend any more time with any of the TSA than I have to already.

I dress and pack appropriately; I just want to be left the hell alone.

</font>

You will never be left alone.


[This message has been edited by tsadude (edited 03-04-2003).]

I will when your agency's continued un-American actions cause it to be disbanded. I eagerly await that day.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
You will never be left alone.
</font>



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

I seriously doubt that will happen. Despite your disregard for it, most people appreciate the TSA. Yes, there are always the complainers, but the silent majority is always there even though to some that is subjective. The majority of americans want to take out Saddam, but the loud minority is all we see on the news. The same can be said for the argument against the TSA.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
I seriously doubt that will happen. Despite your disregard for it, most people appreciate the TSA. Yes, there are always the complainers, but the silent majority is always there even though to some that is subjective. The majority of americans want to take out Saddam, but the loud minority is all we see on the news. The same can be said for the argument against the TSA.</font>

The people who work for the TSA don't even appreciate the TSA. I could go as far as saying they despise the organization even more than I or Spiff do.



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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

Each day, the number of supporters of the TSA decreases and the opposition to their idiocy increases. The media is starting to show more and more accounts of people who are frustrated with the inane and heavy-handed tactics used by the TSA. If improvement does not occur, more pressure will be put on Congress to put an end to these abuses of people's civil liberties just because they have committed the crime of wanting to travel by air. It is unfortunate that the fascists who instigated most of these disgusting tactics will not be personally held responsible for their policies. Norman Mineta deserves to be caned (and canned!) for his efforts to subvert the Constitution with his fascism and ineffective, highly intrusive "security" joke.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
I seriously doubt that will happen. Despite your disregard for it, most people appreciate the TSA. Yes, there are always the complainers, but the silent majority is always there even though to some that is subjective. The majority of americans want to take out Saddam, but the loud minority is all we see on the news. The same can be said for the argument against the TSA.</font>



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

Tazi, there are people in every organization that do not like their employer. I work with a lot of people who rail against Lockheed daily. Does that mean that Lockheed is a bad company? No, that just means that there are whiners everywhere. I agree that there are folks working in the TSA who probably don't like the organization, but that does not make them right. Eventually those who dislike it enough will move on. Those are most likely the ones with the bad attitudes who most organizations can do without anyway.

Spiff, the media shows everything that is negative, very little that is positive. The majority of americans let their opinions be driven by the "media accounts." That does not make them right, it makes them, if anything, lemmings. You are always complaining about your "civil liberties" being taken away from you. Yet I have not seen ONE news item with ANYONE saying the same things that you espouse. I have seen your links to some obscure newsletter that must have been on the payroll of the Soviet Socialist Republic though.

Guess you've got a very selective choice of news sources. I have no problem on a daily basis producing links to articles where people are speaking out against the actions of the TSA. Try looking at the In the News forum... they're not all links to the same publication that you're biased against.

Speaking of which - the TSA definitely espouses more of the Soviet philosophy than aviationplanning.com does. Please show me some examples of how aviationplanning.com more personifies the term "commie b@stard" than the TSA does. I'd really like to see some examples!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
Spiff, the media shows everything that is negative, very little that is positive. The majority of americans let their opinions be driven by the "media accounts." That does not make them right, it makes them, if anything, lemmings. You are always complaining about your "civil liberties" being taken away from you. Yet I have not seen ONE news item with ANYONE saying the same things that you espouse. I have seen your links to some obscure newsletter that must have been on the payroll of the Soviet Socialist Republic though. </font>



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
Tazi, there are people in every organization that do not like their employer. I work with a lot of people who rail against Lockheed daily. Does that mean that Lockheed is a bad company? No, that just means that there are whiners everywhere. I agree that there are folks working in the TSA who probably don't like the organization, but that does not make them right. Eventually those who dislike it enough will move on. Those are most likely the ones with the bad attitudes who most organizations can do without anyway.</font>

From what I read, yes, some could be classified as whiners. Others have legitimate complaints on things that are obviously the result of bad management.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
You will never be left alone.
</font>

What a chilling and perverse thought.

Add me to the list who does not appreciate the TSA. I don't feel *safer*, just more hassled.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
Yes, there are always the complainers, but the silent majority is always there even though to some that is subjective. The majority of americans want to take out Saddam, but the loud minority is all we see on the news.</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
The majority of americans let their opinions be driven by the "media accounts." That does not make them right, it makes them, if anything, lemmings.</font>

Hmmmm?

Tazi, that is true of every organization. There are those who have legitimate complaints about management and there are those who complain to hear themselves talk as well.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
Spiff, the media shows everything that is negative, very little that is positive.</font>

That's true in the First World, and I could bore you with a rather lengthy discourse on polical models of world media that differ from what you've said. However, it's not true everywhere.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
The majority of americans let their opinions be driven by the "media accounts." That does not make them right, it makes them, if anything, lemmings.</font>

Incorrect. Mass media research has demonstrated time and time again that mass media don't tell people what to think (i.e. opinions are not formed solely on the basis of media accounts), but that media do tell people what to think about.

If you have actual data to the contrary, I'd be very interested in seeing it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
You are always complaining about your "civil liberties" being taken away from you. Yet I have not seen ONE news item with ANYONE saying the same things that you espouse.</font>

So what's your point? If you're saying what I think you are, then you're trying to sraw a very, very tenuous connection.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
I have seen your links to some obscure newsletter that must have been on the payroll of the Soviet Socialist Republic though. </font>

/sarcasm ON

Ah. The old "I don't like what you're saying, so I'll call you a Commie" tactic. Yeah, that works so well . . .

/sarcasm OFF

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/rolleyes.gif

Hey JPT. If you look closely I never mentioned the name of any publication/article. Spiff obviously agreed about that one as he filled in the blank.

Still no examples, Aces? Were you just talking out of that which goes into the ejection seats you design?

I submit my question a second time: do you have any examples of how aviationplanning.com more personifies the term "commie b@stard" than does the TSA?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
Hey JPT. If you look closely I never mentioned the name of any publication/article. Spiff obviously agreed about that one as he filled in the blank.</font>



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

Nah Spiff, I guess they are both pretty much the same. They both spin things the way they want them to be, at least the TSA tries to put a positive spin on it, unlike aviationplanning.com.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
You are always complaining about your "civil liberties" being taken away from you. Yet I have not seen ONE news item with ANYONE saying the same things that you espouse. </font>

Then you haven't looked very hard or you have not been paying attention. There have been a lot of them recently over the CAPPS II system.


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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

[This message has been edited by tazi (edited 03-06-2003).]

CAPPS II is a test program from what I understand. It is a close copy of what Isreal has been doing for years. Nothing new there, just new to the US. There are some concerns there, but thats the case with everything that is new. Have you not heard that a lot of insurance companies are also checking credit reports and charging those with less than perfect credit higher rates than those with good credit. Times are changing and some for the better, some for the worse. Some car rental companies have installed GPS units in their cars and have started adding on charges when the renter breaks the speed limit. They would own my first born if they had caught me. Thankfully enough people threw a fit and that was stopped as far as I can tell. However, CAPPS II just might pass muster with the courts and maybe thats a bad thing, or a good thing, at least with passengers coming into the US. I think we should know who is coming here. You want to know who is coming into your home, and folks, this is our home.

ACES II, you can't compare what insurance companies or rental car companies do with what the government does.

One is private and voluntary, the other is public and mandatory.

There was a big difference before the TSA, because now you have government agents going through your stuff.

CAPPS II is government intrusion into private business. You might argue it is necessary, I might argue it is not. But there is no equivalence between that and private business decisions.

richard, my point was that intrusions into our lives are happening more and more every day, both by gov't and private businesses. I worry about both, but why no complaints about the privacy we lose to corporations? The gov't can only do so much, but there are no real limits on what private firms can do. If the airlines decide to take El-Al's example, then all passengers will have to report to the ticket agent 3 days in advance of flying to be "interviewed" and have their pasts investigated. Things could go that way real fast as private businesses can do as they please. The airlines have already reduced the weight limits for passenger bags. Where will they go next?

When private companies use that information we have recourse. We are entitled to see what is in the reports on us they use to make any determination and do refute that information if it proves to be inaccurate. We will have no recourse whatsoever where CAPPS II is concerned. We won't know what information was used nor the reason that information posed a problem. Not to mention the problems that this sort of system present in itself. Here's a good evaluation I found:

http://www.privacyactivism.org/Item/48

If you think there won't be a lot of opposition to this you are very wrong.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

Tazi, the problem with corporations getting your information is that they sell it to other corporations and you could spend your lifetime trying to track your life down. Thats how identity theft has become one of the most serious problems we face these days. Every corporation out there has your entire life history on file and I worry more about the employees of those corporations violating my rights than any TSA screener checking my bag. Now some would say that you cannot compare the two, but there are some corporations out there specifically set up to collect personal data and once they have what they want, they disappear and use it for nefarious things. When was the last time you saw the Gov't disappear? We can petition the Gov't, try that with any corporation, and they can get your information much easier than the Gov't, they can buy what you don't provide willingly.

Your faith in government is very nice, but misplaced. If you examine this question in any sort of historical context, you will find far more examples of governments abusing information collected on citizens -- supposedly for totally "innocent" purposes -- than private companies doing so.

Moreover, the abuses that can occur are much more severe. If a private company has personal data on you, so what? Maybe they'll sell it to somebody. Maybe -- in your wildest dreams -- they'll assume your identity and commit some kind of fraud.

Now, what happens when the government starts abusing information? People get arrested for bad reasons. People get on watch lists and find themselves unable to fly -- or to hold many jobs. You should be able to see how much more serious this is.

Bruce

ACESII, everything I have read so far about the CAPSII system says you can't question the government about the information that will determine your threat level. If I am wrong, please point me to where I have missed something. Show me anything that says there will be procedures in place to dispute your rating if it is anything other than "green".

Yes, corporations have my information and sell it regularly I am sure. They can't use it to stop me from boarding a plane though or ensuring that everytime I do choose to travel by plane, I will go through screening hell first.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

[This message has been edited by tazi (edited 03-07-2003).]