I submit the following anecdote from Philadelphia. This was reported on 2/28/03 by The Travel Insider™, an internet newsletter:


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">This Week's Security Horror Story :. 'A 71 year old grandmother can kill you just as much as a 20 year old' said Philadelphia Police Capt Dominic Mingacci.. 'In these times we are living in, you can never tell'.

Mingacci made these comments to explain what happened when the grandmother in question, after getting off her plane and walking through the concourse at Philadelphia Airport, suddenly remembered that she had left her coat on the plane, so turned round and walked back towards the gate.. In her confusion and concern, she didn't realize that she had left the secure part of the terminal and needed to detour through security to re-enter it.. Instead, she went directly back the way she came, past the 'no entry' sign, and was then immediately chased by a security screener who stopped her.

What happened next?. Oh, the usual.. Although she was probably in the secure area for all of 30 seconds, and never out of sight of the security screener, the checkpoints were closed for 55 minutes and bomb sniffing dogs called in to secure the area, while the 71 year old grandmother was marched off to the airport's police station and questioned.. She subsequently said 'I was treated like a criminal.. I understand they were doing their job, but there was no reason for that screener to yell at me like that and almost knock me over'.. Very true.</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">This Week's Security Horror Story :. 'A 71 year old grandmother can kill you just as much as a 20 year old' said Philadelphia Police Capt Dominic Mingacci.. 'In these times we are living in, you can never tell'.

Mingacci made these comments to explain what happened when the grandmother in question, after getting off her plane and walking through the concourse at Philadelphia Airport, suddenly remembered that she had left her coat on the plane, so turned round and walked back towards the gate.. In her confusion and concern, she didn't realize that she had left the secure part of the terminal and needed to detour through security to re-enter it.. Instead, she went directly back the way she came, past the 'no entry' sign, and was then immediately chased by a security screener who stopped her.

What happened next?. Oh, the usual.. Although she was probably in the secure area for all of 30 seconds, and never out of sight of the security screener, the checkpoints were closed for 55 minutes and bomb sniffing dogs called in to secure the area, while the 71 year old grandmother was marched off to the airport's police station and questioned.. She subsequently said 'I was treated like a criminal.. I understand they were doing their job, but there was no reason for that screener to yell at me like that and almost knock me over'.. Very true.</font>[/B][/QUOTE]

Once again, just one side of the story.

Ok so whats the other side? Or it censured for National Security reasons.
Mike

Censored for your safety of course. You don't need to know, please don't ask or we will have to silence you.

'6079 Smith, W.! Hands out of pockets in the cells!'

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by MIKESILV:
Ok so whats the other side? Or it censured for National Security reasons.
Mike</font>



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

They probably did not know if anyone else had gone back through the exit lane because a screener had their head up his/her a$$ and was not paying attention. This is another person who should be made an example of and fired.

I have not seen that ANY of the incompetent TSA employees have been fired.

Have the nitwit(s) who caused the SEA terminal to be evacuated been fired? If so, where is the proof?

Has the nitwit who brought the loaded handgun to BOS been fired? If so, where is the proof?

Has Naccara (FSD in BOS) been fired? If not, WHY?

Have the nitwit(s) in TPA that did not keep control of their fake bomb been fired? If so, where is the proof?

If this agency is serious about keeping the public trust, they MUST publicize the termination of incompetent staffers.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
I have not seen that ANY of the incompetent TSA employees have been fired.

Have the nitwit(s) who caused the SEA terminal to be evacuated been fired? If so, where is the proof?

Has the nitwit who brought the loaded handgun to BOS been fired? If so, where is the proof?

Has Naccara (FSD in BOS) been fired? If not, WHY?

Have the nitwit(s) in TPA that did not keep control of their fake bomb been fired? If so, where is the proof?

If this agency is serious about keeping the public trust, they MUST publicize the termination of incompetent staffers.</font>

Do firings @ you company make the Nightly News ?

A mistake by one of my employees does not cost Thousands of dollars in expenses. Not to mention lost time and inconvienence.

As TAXPAYERS, we are ENTITLED to know when incompetent Governemt Employees have been terminated.

As employees of my mine, I want to know when TSA members have failed in their duties to secure our nation's air transportation in a reasonable manner, especially when their failures have cost thousands to boot.

Where does it say that this information is required to be released? Just because they worked for the government does not make it mandatory.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
As TAXPAYERS, we are ENTITLED to know when incompetent Governemt Employees have been terminated.</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:


As TAXPAYERS, we are ENTITLED to know when incompetent Governemt Employees have been terminated.</font>

OK, I'll bite. Show me, in writing, where that is stated.

You need to see that in writing? Do you not pay taxes???

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TakeScissorsAway:
OK, I'll bite. Show me, in writing, where that is stated.

</font>



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Spiff:
You need to see that in writing? Do you not pay taxes???



</font>

Yes plz. Show me, where we as taxpayers are "entitled" to be informed when incompetant govt. employees are terminated. I'm just curious as to where it states this exact entitlement.

It's not written down, but it certainly should be owed to every tax payer. In any business, the people who pay the salaries are entitled to see hirings/firings. Try telling a shareholder "it's none of your business" and see how many shareholders you have. We don't get a choice as to whether we pay taxes (and stay out of jail). The TSA should have no choice but to come clean with those who are robbed to pay for this disgrace of an agency.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TakeScissorsAway:
Yes plz. Show me, where we as taxpayers are "entitled" to be informed when incompetant govt. employees are terminated. I'm just curious as to where it states this exact entitlement.

</font>



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

Personally, I could care less if I saw that someone had been fired because of an incident. I would be happy though, to see the tSA admit to mistakes when they are made rather than the patting on the back we see saying "procedures were followed". Some accountability is definitely in order. Even a statememt saying "disiplinary actions have been taken". Of course, you have to first admit a mistake has been made.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Spiff:
It's not written down, but it certainly should be owed to every tax payer. In any business, the people who pay the salaries are entitled to see hirings/firings. Try telling a shareholder "it's none of your business" and see how many shareholders you have. We don't get a choice as to whether we pay taxes (and stay out of jail). The TSA should have no choice but to come clean with those who are robbed to pay for this disgrace of an agency.



</font>
I'll share some background info about myself. My last military duty assignment was with the US Army Safety Center. I assisted in many aircraft accident investigations. These accidents cost millions of dollars in aircraft and the lost lives of my fellow aviators. Many of these were attributed to human failure. Commanders made some really piss poor decisions in training requirements and mission assignments,but were not held accountable. Aircraft parts that are not made to standard cost the government millions of dollars and man hours also. Where is your outrage and the need for accountability for these screw-ups? These things that happen with the TSA is chump change compared to the waste/fraud record of other government agencies.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tazi:
Personally, I could care less if I saw that someone had been fired because of an incident. I would be happy though, to see the tSA admit to mistakes when they are made rather than the patting on the back we see saying "procedures were followed". Some accountability is definitely in order. Even a statememt saying "disiplinary actions have been taken". Of course, you have to first admit a mistake has been made.</font>

Twice in one day, how is that possible Tazi ?? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

I totally agree. The TSA "should" be held accountable for "any" mistakes that are made.
Furthermore, those mistakes should been owned up to also.

I only have time for so much "outrage" so when something personally as well as financially affects me, I get ticked off. Military aircraft accidents do not personally affect me, other than on a purely financial basis. TSA abuse and errors do affect me both personally and financially. Therefore, that is something I will object most strenuously to. Nobody in the military is performing disgusting random harassments of me - except when the National Guard was forced to participate in this disgraceful attack on civil liberties at the checkpoints.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
I'll share some background info about myself. My last military duty assignment was with the US Army Safety Center. I assisted in many aircraft accident investigations. These accidents cost millions of dollars in aircraft and the lost lives of my fellow aviators. Many of these were attributed to human failure. Commanders made some really piss poor decisions in training requirements and mission assignments,but were not held accountable. Aircraft parts that are not made to standard cost the government millions of dollars and man hours also. Where is your outrage and the need for accountability for these screw-ups? These things that happen with the TSA is chump change compared to the waste/fraud record of other government agencies.

</font>

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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

[This message has been edited by Spiff (edited 03-04-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TakeScissorsAway:
Yes plz. Show me, where we as taxpayers are "entitled" to be informed
</font>

Asleep at the wheel during high school civics class?

Just checking.

I don't think we need to be informed if anyone was fired or not. People get fired from government jobs all the time and those are not public knowledge unless it involves a highly placed figure. It is just not important to know what happened to each individual. What is important is knowing what will be done to prevent such a thing from happening again. I read the other day that two screeners found a couple of loaded handguns in two individuals bags. Where is the praise when they do something right? It is always easier to find fault. As for the two guns, some on here would say the screeners should not have said anything about them since they were not looking for guns specifically. I have a friend who recently took a job as a screening manager at Denver and he tells me that they find guns in carry-on bags almost daily there. So they must be doing something right, but where is the press on that? Good news does not sell, thats why.

Ohhhh, YIPEE!!! They are doing their jobs correctly. Big Deal! I do my job correctly EVERY day, yet I do not expect praise for that.

However, if I screw something up, I stand up and take ownership. Maybe this is why I would never make it as a government employee.

As for telling us how mistakes are not going to happen again, look at SEA and BOS. Those two stations for example are failing at least once a month.

The public deserves to know when a Government Employee who screwed up, costing TAXPAYERS thousands and thousands of dollars has been terminated. Otherwise, we will assume that they are still on the job.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TakeScissorsAway:
Yes plz. Show me, where we as taxpayers are "entitled" to be informed when incompetant govt. employees are terminated. I'm just curious as to where it states this exact entitlement.</font>

If we're kept in the dark about TSA operations, and not informed about terminations, how do you expect us to act? "Trust us" doesn't go well with "none of your business."

I personally would want to know that the incompetents -- if they didn't get fired -- weren't working at any airports I happen to travel through.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
As for the two guns, some on here would say the screeners should not have said anything about them since they were not looking for guns specifically. </font>

They aren't looking for guns? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/eek.gif

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TakeScissorsAway:
Twice in one day, how is that possible Tazi ?? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

I totally agree. The TSA "should" be held accountable for "any" mistakes that are made.
Furthermore, those mistakes should been owned up to also.

</font>


Nooooo! It had to be different days!



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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

Tazi, from what I understand the guns were in the checked baggage. I could be wrong about that as I was leaving my hotel room and caught the end of the story on CNN. Either way, they were kept off of the plane and thats a good thing in my opinion.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
The public deserves to know when a Government Employee who screwed up, costing TAXPAYERS thousands and thousands of dollars has been terminated. Otherwise, we will assume that they are still on the job.</font>

Hey CameraGuy, I know of several military pilots (Government Employees) who cost the tax payers MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of dollars by hotdog flying and then using my fine product to save their butts. Do you ever hear about what has been done to them? Nope. So why would you expect to be told about everything that goes on with the TSA guys? Maybe it has more to do with your disdain for that particular agency and less to do with the actual dollar amount.

ACES II, The number one ejection seat in service in the world today. "If you overextend your flying ability, ACES II will see you through!"

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
Hey CameraGuy, I know of several military pilots (Government Employees) who cost the tax payers MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of dollars by hotdog flying and then using my fine product to save their butts. Do you ever hear about what has been done to them? Nope. So why would you expect to be told about everything that goes on with the TSA guys? Maybe it has more to do with your disdain for that particular agency and less to do with the actual dollar amount.</font>

Abuse of power and/or incompetence has always been less tolerated among government employees in direct contact with the public.

Those who abuse "your fine product" may outrage only you. Those who abuse our fellow citizens are in a position to personally abuse us.

A hotdog pilot who toasts a million dollar aircraft is of much less concern than a rogue cop.

Do you not see the difference?

Yes I know what you are saying, and "rogue" cops are one thing, but informing the public about what might or might not have happened to some screener is not necessary, nor is it ever likely to happen. Do we hear about every federal employee that is fired for incompetence? No, nor should we. We don't hear about every police officer who is fired either. It is just not important to have every single one of these individuals punishment, if any, posted for all to see.

If I did not think differently, and I don't, I would think that some on here would just like to see it for their own personal elation.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
but informing the public about what might or might not have happened to some screener is not necessary, </font>

If we are expected to believe the BS about how the TSA is working to protect us, and that everything within reason (that can be done in that area) is being done to assure it, then there is absolutely no excuse for not telling us. For all we know, the TSA could be pulling a Cardinal Law job on us; moving the incompetent screeners to other airports and hoping they don't get noticed. If the incompetents all end up at Sea-Tac, I want to know about it, because I'm not flying to Seattle again.

You cannot expect confidence in the TSA if the TSA will not tell us what happens to the incompetents. Period. Otherwise, we can draw the reasonable conclusion that the incompetents are still out there, and we will continue to carp about them.

Want some sympathy for the TSA? Reveal what happens to the screwups.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
Do we hear about every federal employee that is fired for incompetence? No, nor should we. We don't hear about every police officer who is fired either. It is just not important to have every single one of these individuals punishment, if any, posted for all to see.</font>

Irrelevant.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ACES II:
If I did not think differently, and I don't, I would think that some on here would just like to see it for their own personal elation. </font>

Ah. I see. So you would have no problem with it if the incompetents are retained at their jobs?

If so, then you are admitting that the security inspections are only for show.

JPT, read what you want into the post. I still don't see why every single reprimand/firing should be made public. I am sure that you would also want names so as to be sure that the right thing was done to the right individual. I am sure that the ACLU would just love that one.

Grandmothers, babies, pregnant women, etc. make excellent "mules." To ignore them completely would be idiotic.

In this particular case, I would say the TSA overreacted by closing down the entire terminal. This woman should have been thoroughly scrutinized though. As to her comments about feeling like a criminal, well she should feel like a criminal! It's her idiotic actions that caused the whole "ordeal." It is because of fools like her the TSA wastes our tax dollars at many checkpoints around the country with two or more people paid to simply guard the exits.

[This message has been edited by TransWorldOne (edited 03-06-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TransWorldOne:
In this particular case, I would say the TSA overreacted by closing down the entire terminal. This woman should have been thoroughly scrutinized though. As to her comments about feeling like a criminal, well she should feel like a criminal! It's her idiotic actions that caused the whole "ordeal." It is because of fools like her the TSA wastes our tax dollars at many checkpoints around the country with two or more people paid to simply guard the exits.
</font>

The 71 year old woman made a mistake and you call her a fool and blame her for the security nightmare the TSA has become? The TSA wastes our tax dollars because they are incompetantly managed from the top to the bottom. Do you really think the sole purpose of those people guarding the exits is to catch people who go the wrong way? I thought they were there to keep would be terrorists from gaining access to the secure areas of the airports. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/rolleyes.gif

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">As to her comments about feeling like a criminal, well she should feel like a criminal!</font>
TransWorldOne....take a deep breath and think this through. Here you have a 71 year old lady who suddenly remembers she has forgotten an article of clothing and turns around to retrieve it. She probably doesn't travel often and isn't totally aware of recent airport security changes.
She wanders a few yards into the secure area, never out of sight of TSA....and their reaction is to call in bomb sniffing dogs, close the terminal and haul her to the police station??
What dastardly criminal act did she commit that leads you to believe she should hang her head in shame??

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Cholula:
As to her comments about feeling like a criminal, well she should feel like a criminal!</font>
TransWorldOne....take a deep breath and think this through. Here you have a 71 year old lady who suddenly remembers she has forgotten an article of clothing and turns around to retrieve it. She probably doesn't travel often and isn't totally aware of recent airport security changes.
She wanders a few yards into the secure area, never out of sight of TSA....and their reaction is to call in bomb sniffing dogs, close the terminal and haul her to the police station??
What dastardly criminal act did she commit that leads you to believe she should hang her head in shame??

This article is biased in my opinion. I have watched people do the same thing as this lady and I have escorted them back to where they needed to be. The exit lane monitor(s) did not have this lady under observation until someone realized that there was a breach of security at the exit lane then things got stupid and then the checkpoint was shutdown. Piss poor communication and loss of control of the situation. Why they took her to the police station is what baffles me.

Again, please note:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TransWorldOne:
...In this particular case, I would say the TSA overreacted by closing down the entire terminal...</font>

As for explaining away this woman's actions, perhaps Richard Reid had a perfectly logical explanation for his shoe bombs. Should one be able to talk their way out of security breaches? While hauling her off to the police station was an overreaction, as was closing the terminal, she certainly should have been scrutinized to verify that she was, in fact, benign. Once the fact that she was a sweet old lady who was just a little discombobulated was verified, she should have been assisted to retrieve her item. Only then.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by birdstrike:
...A hotdog pilot who toasts a million dollar aircraft is of much less concern than a rogue cop...

Do you not see the difference?

</font>

I'm sure some families in Italy (http://www.s-t.com/daily/02-98/02-04-98/a05wn031.htm) might disagree.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">As for explaining away this woman's actions, perhaps Richard Reid had a perfectly logical explanation for his shoe bombs. Should one be able to talk their way out of security breaches? While hauling her off to the police station was an overreaction, as was closing the terminal, she certainly should have been scrutinized to verify that she was, in fact, benign. Once the fact that she was a sweet old lady who was just a little discombobulated was verified, she should have been assisted to retrieve her item. Only then.</font>

TW1, we've finally gotten to the point on this forum where even tsadude and ACES II are occasionally listening to reason..... http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/biggrin.gif &lt;-added to keep peace in the "family".....and now, I guess, we have a little work to bring you around as well.
To begin with, all Richard Reid had to say of any consequence is that he would like to lick Osama's boots if given a chance. So we can take him out of this equation.
As to the little old lady, what you say SHOULD have happened DIDN'T happen and that's the whole argument in this case. There was a severe and totally uncalled for overreaction in this case. The TSA has to look at every incident of a security violation as a unique event and apply common sense and thought to each instance. The use of overwhelming force....police, bomb sniffing dogs, terminal closure, etc....applied to a 71 year old lady trying to recover her clothing is, IMHO, totally uncalled for.

If there was a breach of security, I would want them to check out the entire area. The TSA guys are in a no-win situation here. If they have a security breach and don't check out everything and something happens, imagine how much more vitriol you guys would spew then. Given the current atmosphere with things going on in Iraq, and threats being made that as soon as we attack, various cells in this country (we know they are here, thank you INS) it is only prudent that we keep our eyes open and check out everything.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Cholula:
TW1, we've finally gotten to the point on this forum where even tsadude and ACES II are occasionally listening to reason..... http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/biggrin.gif </font>

Have you gotten to the point where you can "occasionally listen to reason?"

My points are two-fold:

1) Yes, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, the TSA overreacted.

2) When there is a security breach, the TSA has the responsibility to swiftly analyze the situation and come to a point where it can make an informed decision as to whether the breach is or is not a threat and if any further action is necessary.

Do you think confused old ladies should have carte blanche at the airport?

While I am no great defender of the TSA, DOT, Bush Administration, and so on, someone needs to police the security checkpoints of our airports. And that someone needs to take action when security breaches occur. I don't like the random stupidity employed so frequently in our security process. Closing down the terminal and hauling the person off to the police station was not a good decision in this case. But the person in question, who breached security, should have been assessed to determine whether or not she posed a threat.

And that assessment should have taken maybe 10 minutes and could have been done on the spot. Do we agree?

Bruce