Why is it that whenever someone makes an argument against the TSA they always bring a 85 year old grandma and her knitting needles / nail clipper/ tweezer into it? Or a 5 year boy and his fake gun?

None of these items are prohibited and the TSA could care less if they are brought through security. They may have been probhibited at one time (post 911, but still private security), but this line about grandma getting harassed is completely used up.

Probably the same reason they bring up the woman that was forced to drink her own breast milk and the boy that had to drink water samples from his science project.

And maybe, because they still see idiocy in the whole process.

One of the points I was trying to make is that these incidents happened before the TSA took over screening. Also, at the time, it was policy. Things have changed for the better, but people keep citing ridiculous policies that aren't in place anymore.

The woman with the breast milk:
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2002/2002-08-09-jfk-security.htm

The boy with stream water:
http://www.aspendailynews.com/Search_Articles/view_article.cfm?OrderNumber=4593


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tazi:
Probably the same reason they bring up the woman that was forced to drink her own breast milk and the boy that had to drink water samples from his science project.

And maybe, because they still see idiocy in the whole process.</font>

You make a valid point. As I have said many times here, things really are much better under the TSA -- or they were until the latest ORANGE alert resurrected many of the stupid practices that had been stopped.

Most of us realize that the TSA wants to be reasomable. We're just trying to show them what that means. I believe that complaints from frequent flyers have helped the TSA to see the light in a number of areas, and I intend to keep on pointing out silly practices.

The bottom line is that I like living just as much as anyone else does, and I want air travel to be safe. I just want the TSA to do things that actually contribute to security and aren't ineffective or, even worse, simply unnecessary hassle. We're making steady progress in that direction.

Bruce

The changes for effective security will take time. I believe that the small scissors rule is very time consuming and is not a factor once cockpit doors are re-enforced and pilots are TRAINED in the use of deadly force.

When "Random" Gate Harassment is in use, the first people down the jetway are almost always selected.

Now, since pre-boarding usually includes "Those needing extra time down the jetway", more elderly are subjected to this "Random" harassment than any other age group.

I also contend that in many stations, "Continuous" screening victims are also elderly, since they are least likely to put up a fuss.

As for your two linked articles, the TSA WAS in charge of the checkpoints and rules at the times those incidents occurred. The fact that the screeners may or may not have been TSA, is immaterial.

You make a good point. They were TSA policies that were enforced by private security. The fact that they were seen as ridiculous and revoked is a sign of progress. I just hope we can focus on the present and the policies and procedures in place right now (many of which are rapidly changing).

I evision a not too distant future when the TSA's no longer bothers with scissors and small pocketknives. The focus will be on dangerous weapons, dual use items, and hazardous materials. Prohibited items may include knives of a specified length or longer, blugeons / dual use items (bats, golf clubs, hockey sticks...), hazardous materials (bleach, pepper spray, lighter fluid...), and of course explosives.


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
When "Random" Gate Harassment is in use, the first people down the jetway are almost always selected.

Now, since pre-boarding usually includes "Those needing extra time down the jetway", more elderly are subjected to this "Random" harassment than any other age group.

I also contend that in many stations, "Continuous" screening victims are also elderly, since they are least likely to put up a fuss.

As for your two linked articles, the TSA WAS in charge of the checkpoints and rules at the times those incidents occurred. The fact that the screeners may or may not have been TSA, is immaterial.</font>

I would welcome that, but have lost faith in Loy. He came in with gun's a blazin, yet has completed screwed up the Orange Alert procedures.

Maybe they could hire someone with a SECURITY background to run the TSA? There's a thought that I bet nobody in Washington has had. But, I don't think anyone in Washington has had a thought in years.

Well, beginning March 1st Asa Hutchinson (former head of the DEA) will take responsiblity as Under Secretary of Border and Transportation Security for the DHS. So, there will be someone in charge with a security background. Hopefully, this will be a benefit to the TSA and to the traveling public.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
When "Random" Gate Harassment is in use, the first people down the jetway are almost always selected.

Now, since pre-boarding usually includes "Those needing extra time down the jetway", more elderly are subjected to this "Random" harassment than any other age group.

I also contend that in many stations, "Continuous" screening victims are also elderly, since they are least likely to put up a fuss.

As for your two linked articles, the TSA WAS in charge of the checkpoints and rules at the times those incidents occurred. The fact that the screeners may or may not have been TSA, is immaterial.</font>

The airlines are supposed to be choosing a randum if there are no selectee's. I irks me to see them choose an elderly person for the selection. The agents I have witnessed doing this are not very good anyway in my opinion. As far as the TSA being in charge for the very stupid incidents, by name only, These morons should have been fired on the spot for such acts. I am suprised that nobody has brought up the ordeal with the lady on the tarmac and her PPD.

tmspa and tsadude,

You guys are all right! I hope that the TSA has lots more like you.

Yes, elimination of stupid rules is a sign of real progress. We were doing pretty well until the ORANGE alert came along. Hopefully it will be changed back to YELLOW soon. The justification for ORANGE was bogus in the first place, we now know.

Loy isn't so bad. And he was head of the Coast Guard, a job with real responsibilities. I'd cut him a break. Regarding Asa Hutchinson (Loy's new boss), in addition to being former head of the DEA, before that he was a Member of Congress!!! So he might know a thing or two about being responsive to the public. I'm looking forward to March 1.

Bruce

The reason that Gate Agents select the FIRST people down the jetway is the threat of fines from the FAA. It is not their stupidity, it is the FAA and the TSA.

Name only is a cop-out. "Moron" Minetta and the nitwits running the TSA made the rules and they were responsible for the actions of the screeners.

It's funny you should mention firing screeners on the spot.

Should screeners who fall asleep and cause an entire terminal to be emptied be fired on the spot?

Should a screener who brought a loaded weapon to a checkpoint be fired on the spot?

Should screeners who abuse their powers be fired on the spot?

Loy has been a disappointment. I don't know anything about Hutchinson, but being head of the DEA does not necessarily mean knowledge of security. IME, Former LEO's make for VERY poor Security Directors.

CameraGuy,

Who would you consider to have enough "security" work experience to lead the TSA?

It's a new Administration with a unique mission. How many Government candidates for the job have had experience leading a group of airport security workers? Um, probably, NONE. There may be private sector workers who may qualify, but unfortunately, the Under Secretary position is an appointment.

If not Loy or Hutchinson, then who? It just seems to me that nobody would be qualified enough for you.

Will a Government Hack will be qualified, nope.

The problem with LEO's is that there expertise is in SOLVING crimes, not PREVENTING crimes. That is why so few LEO's turn out to be good Security Directors.

You want people with SECURITY backgrounds, check out ASIS (http://www.asisonline.org/). This is a organization of Security Professionals.

Problem is that a true Security Professional would never take the job, since the agency was never formed with Security in mind anyway. It is Window Dressing. Period.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
The reason that Gate Agents select the FIRST people down the jetway is the threat of fines from the FAA. It is not their stupidity, it is the FAA and the TSA.

Name only is a cop-out. "Moron" Minetta and the nitwits running the TSA made the rules and they were responsible for the actions of the screeners.

It's funny you should mention firing screeners on the spot.

Should screeners who fall asleep and cause an entire terminal to be emptied be fired on the spot?

Should a screener who brought a loaded weapon to a checkpoint be fired on the spot?

Should screeners who abuse their powers be fired on the spot?

Loy has been a disappointment. I don't know anything about Hutchinson, but being head of the DEA does not necessarily mean knowledge of security. IME, Former LEO's make for VERY poor Security Directors.</font>
Fired for sleeping? You bet. Bringing a gun to work? Press charges.Abusing powers? That is wide open to interpitation. Ticket agents can you their discretion on choosing randoms, letting selectees pass gets them the fines. In reference to the idiots who did these ignorant acts,these were the private companies under the FAA's watch acting for the TSA. Not TSA screeners.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tsadude:
Originally posted by CameraGuy:
The reason that Gate Agents select the FIRST people down the jetway is the threat of fines from the FAA. It is not their stupidity, it is the FAA and the TSA.

Name only is a cop-out. "Moron" Minetta and the nitwits running the TSA made the rules and they were responsible for the actions of the screeners.

It's funny you should mention firing screeners on the spot.

Should screeners who fall asleep and cause an entire terminal to be emptied be fired on the spot?

Should a screener who brought a loaded weapon to a checkpoint be fired on the spot?

Should screeners who abuse their powers be fired on the spot?

Loy has been a disappointment. I don't know anything about Hutchinson, but being head of the DEA does not necessarily mean knowledge of security. IME, Former LEO's make for VERY poor Security Directors.</font>
Fired for sleeping? You bet. Bringing a gun to work? Press charges.Abusing powers? That is wide open to interpretation. Ticket agents can you their discretion on choosing randoms, letting selectees pass gets them the fines. In reference to the idiots who did these ignorant acts,these were the private companies under the FAA's watch acting for the TSA. Not TSA screeners. TSA screeners were not even at BWI in 4/02. Aspen federalized 10/02, LaGuardia 8/02.

I must have missed the press releases announcing the termination of the MORON in SEA who fell asleep resulting in the evacuation of the terminal.

I also must have missed the press release announcing that charges had been filed against the terminated MORON in BOS who brought a loaded handgun to a screening station.

As for the other acts, "Moron" Minetta was in charge of Airport Security and the TSA when those acts occured. Like it or not, the TSA should shoulder the blame.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
I must have missed the press releases announcing the termination of the MORON in SEA who fell asleep resulting in the evacuation of the terminal.

I also must have missed the press release announcing that charges had been filed against the terminated MORON in BOS who brought a loaded handgun to a screening station.

As for the other acts, "Moron" Minetta was in charge of Airport Security and the TSA when those acts occured. Like it or not, the TSA should shoulder the blame.</font>
The gun and sleeper were TSA boneheads that need to be made examples of, but the news articles initially posted were not TSA screeners and you could theoretically blame Congress and the President if you want.