After reading this article over the weekend, I started thinking about the overall topic of senior discounts. Why should someone get an automatic discount on their airline ticket because of their age? My father, who is 68 and on a fixed income, qualifies for the discount. But why? Why should businesses be forced to lower the price of the exact same product offered to non-seniors for less? If anything, senior travel seems to cost more when you factor in the use of wheelchairs and airport personnel to transport them around the airport. Also, statistically speaking they are not the most frequent travelers. Anyway, I was just curious about what others think.

[quote] FLYING LOW: Many airlines end discounts that older travelers have counted on for years (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/07/20/BU30945.DTL)
Allen Downey, 87, and his wife, 84-year-old Margie, were waiting in line at San Francisco International Airport for American Airlines flight 442 to Miami when they learned that the senior citizen discounts they used to buy their tickets had become a thing of the past.

This week, American, United, Delta, Northwest and US Airways ended the 10 percent discounts that the Downeys, like millions of seniors, have depended on to save a little money.

The airlines, which lost $1.4 billion in the second quarter, are trying to cut costs wherever they can. They have recently dropped or drastically altered senior discounts in an attempt to stanch their losses.
Full Article Here (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/07/20/BU30945.DTL)[quote]

First off, I'll never understand how airlines set their fare schedules. I can't imagine any other industry abusing their business customers as much as the airline industry does.

That said, I think an airline should be able to charge what it wants to passengers of any age. If the marketplace stipulates a competition for senior citizen passengers, then the prices will fall in line to market forces. I do not think there ought to be government regulation telling airlines to charge senior citizens a special rate. It should be up to the marketplace.

[This message has been edited by Analise (edited 07-22-2002).]

As senior travellers often book WAY in advance, there is no real need for senior discounts as they in fact often get quite cheap fares anyway.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Analise:
That said, I think an airline should be able to charge what it wants to passengers of any age. If the marketplace stipulates a competition for senior citizen passengers, then the prices will fall in line to market forces. I do not think their ought to be government regulation telling airlines to charge senior citizens a special rate. It should be up to the marketplace.</font>

I agrtee with Analise. It should be up to the marketplace.

Airlines already give corporate discounts as well as all the elite level FF privileges. Why not to any group where market conditions apply.

While I am unaware of the actual demographics, I suspect that seniors, as a group, make up a significant bloc of air travel.

Again, anecdotal, but on two recent trips to Europe, something like half of the economy section looked like they could qualify for senior fares. While most seniors probably travel with a Saturday stay, I suspect they also plan reasonably far in advance, and aren't checking every day for the lastest fares. While not many may be in paid First, I suspect there aren't too many on mileage runner fares either.

Even more importantly, seniors are reasonably organised. Again I am jsut guessing, but I suspect that much senior travel is booked with groups such as AARP and Senior Centers. I suspect this is a significant bloc of steady travel that no airline really can afford to lose at this time.

It may have just been a coincidence, but after Frontier and America West and Alaska? said they were keeping senior fares, and AARP said they were reevaluating their cruise and travel bookings, United suddenly decided they really weren't canceling senior discounts after all, they were just raising the age limit from 62 to 65 which means they won't book on most internet sites. I wonder if any other airlines have now followed United.

Bruce

I don't get senior discounts at all. Why should you get a discount for being old?

I'm young and recently graduated from an expensive university. If anyone needs a discount it is me, not someone who has had 60 years of work to save up for retirement. When I retire I expect to have tons of money, whereas now I have none.

If the market determines that this is good for profitability, that's fine I suppose. On the other hand, I don't have any moral issues with using a senior ticket at the movies, especially not in NYC where the old people who live in Manhattan have tons of money.

d

Senior discounts are pretty common in resturants and hotels (like AARP rates and such). No reasons airlines should not do it either. If they want to, they are free to do so. If they change their minds, so be it.

What was the discount in the past? Was it a certain percentage off any published fare you pruchased? A discount off of a higher fare? I know some airlines had flight coupon books for seniors. Frequently, they weren't a good deal.

Airlines offer senior discounts to gain customers with different trigger prices. Similar strategies are used for students, children, and leisure travellers. Trigger prices are known in econmics and business as "willingness to pay" and the overall strategy as "price discrimination".

The idea is that those people will ONLY buy at a lower price. Lowering the general level of prices would also attract those customers, but would reduce the airlines income from other seats. By chosing a narrowly defined group, they can sell more seats, add that extra revenue, and still keep revenue high from the other seats.

Price discrimination is used in a wide variety of industries, particularly service industries where the "product" cannot be easily transferred to other sellers. "Ladies nights" cover charge in bars, for example, although here, the mix of customers adds to the products value. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

It's particularly helpful to airlines since the marginal cost of a seat is near zero, and yet each plane needs a certain total revenue to be profitable.

If somehow we outlawed price discounting, that would reduce the overall demand and revenue for travel. We would probably see a reduction in the numbers of scheduled flights. Or we would probably see various schemes to get around such a law. Since no one is directly harmed by person X getting a discount, the only argument against such a policy is envy.

Hello from an almost senior citizen. My husband is the senior ( http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif) and the airlines gave senior discounts two ways: one way was 10% off of the airfare, and the other way you had to purchase a booklet of four one way coupons for approx $598.00. Considering some of the sales in recent times, the plain undiscounted fare was cheaper than the senior coupons were. I can only tell you from my persepctive why I think they give the discounts. First of all seniors are usually retired and travel more than working people; additionally, because they are retired they can travel at the last minute and usually take advantage of last minute offerings by tour companies or airline packages, or other spontaneous travel website offerings. And, as some of you have verbalized, because we have worked all our lives in an attempt to give our children (YOU GUYS AND GALS) a better life we have money from our pensions, our social security and interest, to travel with. I don't live in Manhattan, I am not rich, but I do love going places and I don't go first class or business, I sit in coach. I agree that many seniors have more money than young people with families and perhaps should not get the discount, but let's not be nasty about it kiddies! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Analise:
I'll never understand how airlines set their fare schedules. I can't imagine any other industry abusing their business customers as much as the airline industry does.
</font>

Analise, I agree that airline pricing is mysterious. Hub dominance and the level of competition on a route plays a huge role.

However, I don't think airlines are focused so much on "abusing business customers" as segmenting those who want to travel at the last minute on particular days versus those who are flexible and plan ahead. It's just the nature of business that many last minute trips are made. Also, business people demand flights at peak times when planes are more full, and those seats ought to be priced higher.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by South of the Border:

Also, business people demand flights at peak times when planes are more full, and those seats ought to be priced higher.</font>

That may be so, but I am a business person from a small firm who at times must travel at the last minute. I do not demand peak times. I will fly at any hour to get to my appointments. Flights during so-called off peak hours are just as expensive if purchased within 21, 14, and 7 day periods. I might be able to find a deal if I spend a Saturday night but I'd rather be home in New York and not stuck someplace else.

I'm not alone in this thinking. Airlines like JetBlue, for example, have come to ingratiate themselves in the New York marketplace. I can buy a ticket last minute and pay often 10% of what other airlines charge. There is certainly room in the plane so the idea of charging more to guarantee a seat for last minute flyers is proven inaccurate time and time again. JetBlue also is not a cattle car type airline---their satellite TV at each seat proves that they want to be more than just a cheap airline but rather an airline of choice.

So I disagree that airlines should price tickets higher. Perhaps larger firms with endless budgets will participate in such a business model but smaller ones have options. I might add that with the Dow plummeting as it is, I would surmise that even larger firms are tightening their belts in terms of travel budgets.

Those who can't figure out why seniors get a discount should have to pay more anyway.

For most seniors, travel is optional (unlike most business travel). The discount is intended to induce travel that otherwise wouldn't get made.

Offering a senior discount is a business decision, not some sort of eleemosynary gesture.

When Caldor's was still in business, seniors got something line 10% off on Wednesdays. We had one person in our office who would go down there with a shopping list every Wednesday and buy out the place for lots of others in the office.

I see nothing wrong wth discounts, be them for seniors, or people with kids (the Hilton Nickleodion promtion) or people who live in certain states getting discounts, or anything like that. Why should government employees get a hotel discount when they are not traveling on business? Why whould anybody ever get a discount?

It's to bring business into the company. I'm certainly not against any airline bringing in business right now.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wideman:
Offering a senior discount is a business decision, not some sort of eleemosynary gesture.</font>

wideman, no offense intended -- but how long have you been waiting to use that word? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

RAD

(Edited for stupid typos)

[This message has been edited by RAD (edited 07-22-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Doppy:
I don't get senior discounts at all. Why should you get a discount for being old?

I'm young and recently graduated from an expensive university. If anyone needs a discount it is me, not someone who has had 60 years of work to save up for retirement. When I retire I expect to have tons of money, whereas now I have none.

If the market determines that this is good for profitability, that's fine I suppose. On the other hand, I don't have any moral issues with using a senior ticket at the movies, especially not in NYC where the old people who live in Manhattan have tons of money.

d</font>

I once thought the same about the correlation of retired folk and money. Unfortunately, the whole world (even in the Tri-State NYC area) does not have an overabundance of old rich people. Too many retired persons HAVE spent their whole lives saving but there are a lot of cases where grandma and grandpa help support younguns like you. A recent study has shown that many people are working well past retirement age just to help their children and grandchildren make ends meet. I am not retired or even near retirement age but I have learned to have sympathy for the aging.

A new college graduate like you has the potential to earn big bucks. Most retired people are on a fixed income. A $20 savings can go a long way perceptually so the airlines are wrong in doing away with the discount. Besides, just think, that's $20 more going towards a gift for the younguns they are visiting.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PhxArisen:
A new college graduate like you has the potential to earn big bucks. Most retired people are on a fixed income.</font>

I have earning potential, but that doesn't mean that I'm rolling in money right now.

On the other hand, it's a near certainty that, barring a major disaster, I will be rolling in the money when I'm retired.

d

If the argument in favor of senior discounts is that seniors have less income and therefore should pay less air fare, then a 10% discount should be given to poor people of any age. Considering how complicated air fares are already, I don't think we need a copy of a 1040 to book a ticket. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif


I basically agree with Doppy on this point. Speaking of subsidies, I am still amazed that rent regulation is still here in NYC, 50 years after its purpose has come and gone. A 10% discount on air fares is nothing compared to the atrocities wrought by rent regulation and its sister evil, welfare. Those two government programs are the golden handcuffs that chain people to their filthy neighborhoods and their filthy apartment buildings. It irks me to no end about this stupid place. On a regular basis I read an article in the paper about some rent stabilized tenant who's complaining about being evicted. It's always a legal eviction but they ***** and moan anyway as if the state laws were all against tenants. Spare me!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Analise:
Airlines like JetBlue, for example, have come to ingratiate themselves in the New York marketplace. I can buy a ticket last minute and pay often 10% of what other airlines charge. There is certainly room in the plane so the idea of charging more to guarantee a seat for last minute flyers is proven inaccurate time and time again....
So I disagree that airlines should price tickets higher.
</font>

Good point. There's a fine line between price discrimination and price gouging!
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/frown.gif
And of course, the airline should call it an off-peak discount, rather than a peak-hour premium...
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JS:
If the argument in favor of senior discounts is that seniors have less income and therefore should pay less air fare, then a 10% discount should be given to poor people of any age.</font>

The airlines do not give discounts out of the kindness of their hearts (I can't spell that eel...y word). They do it in the belief that they will actually end up extracting more money from the seniors. United's senior discounts aren't all that great, anyway. 10%, but only on M and above on international routes, and not on promotional domestic fares.

The coupon books (now discontinued) cost about $320 per round trip. It was only useful on transcontinental trips to unusual destinations.

Same with zone fares. Transcontinental zone is now about $400. I can't imagine that anyone, given a little time, couldn't do better.

Best senior deals are international coupons, about $25 which give summer fares to Europe or Asia for about $700. But, for United, you first have to cough up $225 to join their seniors club.

Now, if we want to talk about subsidies, we could talk about special elite lounges, free upgrades, all sorts of special perks for elite flyers. These are all money out of the till for the airlines. Why not just get rid of all the elite flyer perks and cut the cost of business travel? After all, most of the people receiving these perks are just flying on the company dollar. Talk about undeserving seniors? These elites are probably the least deserving among us, and only want more.

Bruce

Bruce, I agree with you, especially on the last paragraph (yes, stop the free lunches!!!). The senior citizen discount, or ideally a "poor person's discount", is not a charity but a further division of market segmentation (a.k.a. price discrimination). In fact, any business offering senior citizen discounts does so for the same reason -- maximizing revenue through market segmentation.

Well you can't argue for segmenting the market with senior or low-income segments, but then against segmenting it for elites.

Seniors want lower fares; elites want lounges. Both are happy and travel more as a result of their individual segment's benefits.

Now, whether either of these segments brings more money in by offering a special perk (lower fare or elite benefit) is a different discussion.

d

Airlines have the ability to market whomever they choose. How can anyone be against that?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by RAD:
...how long have you been waiting to use that word [eleemosynary]?

RAD</font>

Eleemosynary has been part of my working vocabulary since the Senate Special Committee hearings on Watergate in Summer, 1973. Sen. Ervin dropped the word as if it were a petal falling from a flower, and he feigned amazement that his fellow committeemen weren't certain of its meaning.

At times, this typist also occasionally makes self-referential comments as being a simple country technical writer.

(The writer recognizes that this post makes no sense to all readers under the age of 40, nor to most readers above 40, for that matter.)

Redacted to remove icon and correct typo.

[This message has been edited by wideman (edited 07-23-2002).]

Why should seniors get discounts?

Messing with the AARP is one step worse that messing with the NRA, of course http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif. One helluva lobby.

------------------
Saving the world, one clue at a time.

IMHO the airlines should charge more for seniors. Just look around on your next flight. Far too many seniors:

(1) Move too slowly. They use a lotta canes and wheelchair too. They also populate the electric carts almost exclusively.
(2) They check too many bags (and really old ones at that). This chews up fuel and costs the airlines big bucks.
(3) Order special meals…..read….. “extra costs”. Of course they eat it all of it. Sometimes they ask the FA for seconds.
(4) They don’t see too well and often sit in the wrong seats. They don’t know how to use a seat belt.
(5) They wear a lotta polyester (Blair and Haband come to mind). The cotton growers (and their lobby) don’t like this.
(6) They don’t tip well or often. How often have you seen a senior tip a FA or GA?
(7) Go to the airports with 4-8 relatives to “send them off”. Some Polish people take dozens (my sisters in-laws come to mind).
(8) They carry “train cases” on airplanes. Why?

MisterNice

The date of one's birth is an immutable characteristic, like race, gender, national origin, or the semi-immutable characteristics of religion, sexual orientation, disability, or physical appearance.

What business does ANYONE have discriminating on any of these bases?! Certainly, the government should not. As for private individuals and businesses "affecting interstate commerce" the constitution, statutes, case law and public policy have developed differently with respect to these different characteristics.

While you can't force someone to marry you, and 18 is the current age of majority in the United States (do I hear 16, anyone?), a general consensus has arisen that it is wrong, for instance, to refuse to hire someone or force him to retire because of age.

So why should airline discounts be any different, even if supported by sound economics and science? We have decided as a society that certain ethnic groups should not pay higher life insurance rates because of shorter life-spans (caused by societal distribution of health resources), or that women's pensions should not be smaller because they live longer (as a group). In most jurisdictions, "ladies' nights" violate the law--but not under the federal constitution because gender-based differences in treatment are subject only to intermediate scrutiny rather than strict scrutiny in court.

Perhaps airline lawyers have had a little extra time to figure out things other than how carriers can safely gouge passengers, avoid responsibility when things go wrong, do mergers, or master the intricacies of bankruptcy law.

There are plenty of ways to achieve permissible economic price discrimination without invidious discrimination based on immutable or semi-immutable characteristics.

Senior discounts? Good riddance.

This isn't rocket science, folks, and it isn't anywhere near this complicated.

The purpose of senior discounts, or any other kind of discounts, is to generate business that otherwise wouldn't have existed.

Seniors are targeted in so many industries for this type of marketing because they tend to be very price sensative. If they can get a discount they will buy, if they don't, they won't.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by SPN Lifer:
The date of one's birth is an immutable characteristic, like race, gender, national origin, or the semi-immutable characteristics of religion, sexual orientation, disability, or physical appearance.

What business does ANYONE have discriminating on any of these bases?!.</font>

Senior discounts? Good riddance.

Well, maybe, but not for any of the reasons you cited. Age is a perfectly acceptable constitutional basis for discrimination. Even the Constitution discriminates on the basis of age. You have to be 40 to be President, etc.

It is perfectly legal to require people to retire because of age; give tax breaks because of age, give discounts because of age. Are you really suggesting that there should be no age requirements attached to Social Security?

I don't understand why anyone orders Denny's Senior Breakfast, when you can get the sme and more for the Grand Slam special at half the price, but I certainly wouldn't forbid them the right to offer a Senior Breakfast.

In the same line, gender discrimination doesn't rise or fall on strict scrutiny, or because it is good or bad; like slavery, it was part of the compact when the Constitution was adopted, and the failure of the Equal Rights Amendment has simply made that fact current.

One can make an argument that all subsidies and discounts distort the true cost of any service, and result in misallocation of resources, but that argument has yet to be made for senior discounts.

Bruce

For all of you who agree with the airlines in getting rid of the senior fare, you can make the same arguments with all discounts:

-children discounts (up to 50% in some markets)
-military discounts
-college student discounts

The one nice thing about the senior fares is hopefully we will all be there one day.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by brucemcal:
Originally posted by SPN Lifer:
The date of one's birth is an immutable characteristic, like race, gender, national origin, or the semi-immutable characteristics of religion, sexual orientation, disability, or physical appearance.

What business does ANYONE have discriminating on any of these bases?!.</font>

Senior discounts? Good riddance.

Well, maybe, but not for any of the reasons you cited. Age is a perfectly acceptable constitutional basis for discrimination. Even the Constitution discriminates on the basis of age. You have to be 40 to be President, etc.

It is perfectly legal to require people to retire because of age; give tax breaks because of age, give discounts because of age. Are you really suggesting that there should be no age requirements attached to Social Security?

I don't understand why anyone orders Denny's Senior Breakfast, when you can get the sme and more for the Grand Slam special at half the price, but I certainly wouldn't forbid them the right to offer a Senior Breakfast.

In the same line, gender discrimination doesn't rise or fall on strict scrutiny, or because it is good or bad; like slavery, it was part of the compact when the Constitution was adopted, and the failure of the Equal Rights Amendment has simply made that fact current.

One can make an argument that all subsidies and discounts distort the true cost of any service, and result in misallocation of resources, but that argument has yet to be made for senior discounts.

Bruce



1. I don't know why anyone would eat at Denny's.

2. Interesting that you use them to discuss discrimination...didn't they have a few problems in this area?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">brucemcal: Even the Constitution discriminates on the basis of age. You have to be 40 to be President, etc. </font> Not that this has anything to do with the discussion. However if there is anyone lloking to run in 2004, the age limits are as follows:
House of Representatives - 25 yrs
U.S. Senate - 30 yrs
President - 35 yrs
http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/smile.gif

To answer the question in the title, No.

I agree that a business can choose to offer discounts. Some stores give seniors 10% off midweek. (And I have been guilty of dragging my Mom to the store...my hair is not grey enough yet. But Mom likes the adventure.)

But I disagree that anyone deserves a discount simply because they are old and/or poor.

If a business wants to generate incremental revenue it is their right. But it is not the right of any group to have a discount.

Geez - what a depressing topic

I've hesitated opening this thread for a couple of days, assuming it would come down to the seniors vs the seniors-to-be. Doesn't seem to be that way. To answer the topic and pretend to stay on topic, the airlines can do whatever they want to entice certain segments to throw business their way. The business reason has already been stated better by others before me here.
Marcmuff: How in the world can this be depressing when it contains the word eleemosynary in one of the postings? Had to look that one up. of, relating to, or supported by charity. By the way, welcome to Flyertalk. Try OMNI for some real fun.

Oh yeah, I'm at least 20 years from retirement, yet received my first senior citizen discount at Taco Bell the other day. She made a big point to let me know I got it. I wish I had saved the receipt and framed it. Anyway, I wasn't offended; found it very ammusing. Complete hoot!