I had a meeting scheduled in Buffalo for Tuesday, and at the last minute it was changed to NYC. When I booked the original trip several weeks ago, I decided to turn it into a MR as well (meeting not till night time). Instead of paying the $100 change fee to go to NYC instead of BUF, I decided to complete my run and then take a short hop to JFK on JetBlue (first time on them). Here is a quick recap of the trip below, so people can get an idea of current loads and service:

US # 264 FLL-CLT A321
This flight was COMPLETELY full - not a single seat available. This can be attributed to the middle school trip (30 kids) going to Boston. Nice to see a full boat (esp. 321) on a Tuesday morning at 6AM, nonetheless!

US # 989 CLT-ORD B733
US's boeing fleet is notorious for being grimy, but this a/c looked like it was one of the ones that just got "demothballed" from Mojave - filthy, unattractive, to say the least. I counted, and there were a total of 42 people on this flight... Gee, I bet Dave would love to fly an RJ on this route instead! Had to sit on taxiway for 15 mins after arrival because both US gates were occupied (PIT flight was late pushing back).

US # 1528 ORD-PHL B733
Again, an empty flight. I counted 52 on this one. I really can see ORD becoming the next Express station, especially with all the UA codeshares going in there. One bright spot: this was the nicest 733 I have ever been on. Very clean, and I was pleasently suprised.

US # 344 PHL-BUF B733
My third 733 of the day, and boy was I getting tired of them. This flight was overbooked, completely full. Nice to see two flights at 100% capacity for the day. Walking through the terminals at PHL and CLT today, I also passed many gates that said "volunteers needed"

W6 # 6 BUF-JFK A320
This a/c was JetBlue's newest, the "Song Sung Blue." I commmented when I saw the title on the side of the a/c, and the CSR gave me a SSB hat because "not too many people know about the fun we poked at Song." Regardless, my first W6 flight and I was rather impressed. The leather seats smelled like a new car, and the F/A gave everyone on the flight complimentary LaBatt (if so desired).

I also want to discuss some other US news. I know that a lot of rumors are sensative subjects, so I will really try and be careful with what I say here. I met two of my close friends in the PHL club today. One of them is tight w/ Siegel, and the other is "in the know" with Gov. Rendell's decision making. Here is what they said is likely to happen (again, please remember this is only what I heard from quite reliable sources - there is a possibility there is factually incorrect information, but, if I believed it to be wrong, I wouldn't report it):

1) United Airlines is flying on borrowed time right now. Regardless of what people say about how they are cutting costs, etc., the people "in the know" at US believe UA will be gone within one year. It is the belief of management that with US's better financial positions after cost cuts, they will have the ability to take over many lucritive UA routes and also have a significant westward expansion. Top management is secretly predicting that in 3 years, US will be the #3 airline, behind AA & DL. No decisions on fleet plans yet.

2) Siegel believes that PIT "has had their day" and that US must "de-hub" there. Regardless of whether PA comes through with the cost cuts, the operations there in the future will be minimal. It hasn't been widely reported, but this Friday a bank of 140 express flights are moving from PIT to PHL. Rendell will shy away from playing PHL vs. PIT, because he has realized that not accomidating and losing US at PHL would cripple the city.

3) MidAtlantic will NOT be PIT based, and has just a good of a shot of being based in PHL as CLT (part of a forthcoming agreement with PA). Although congestion is a problem in PHL, it has been noted by other flyertalk members that traffic there isn't nearly at the levels it was at pre 9/11. Plus, PHL just built the new Express runway. I hear US is very concerned about the performance of the F Terminal Club, and really wants to "pack out" the F terminal.

4) Took a look at A-West today... It looks as good as everyone says. Truly spectacular. Another US Club to be opened there, and also an envoy departures lounge.

Based on a bits of info I have picked up here and there that it is becoming obvious what US' plans for PIT are:
-primarily RJ hub similar to but smaller than what DL has in Cincinnati.
-the only non-stop mainline service from PIT will be to about 8-9 major cities (LGA,BOS,DCA,PHL,CLT,ALT,MCO possibly LAX and SFO)
-no TransAtlantic service
-this will cost about 40% of the US jobs in PIT

In PHL, look for some flights (including possibly the entire Carribean bank) to transition to the A-East (old A) terminal. The extra space in B and C will be used to pick up some of PIT's volume.

I don't know how this is all going to shake out, but think that PIT will survive as a hub. US really pissed off the two US Senators, especially Santorum. He 'really went to the mat' for US in the Senate, especially over the ALPA pensions and then US turned around and tried to put the screws to PA. Look for tough discussions between US and PA. US will get some but a lot of concessions.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BillMorrow:
Based on a bits of info I have picked up here and there that it is becoming obvious what US' plans for PIT are:
-primarily RJ hub similar to but smaller than what DL has in Cincinnati.
-the only non-stop mainline service from PIT will be to about 8-9 major cities (LGA,BOS,DCA,PHL,CLT,ALT,MCO possibly LAX and SFO)
-no TransAtlantic service
-this will cost about 40% of the US jobs in PIT

In PHL, look for some flights (including possibly the entire Carribean bank) to transition to the A-East (old A) terminal. The extra space in B and C will be used to pick up some of PIT's volume.

I don't know how this is all going to shake out, but think that PIT will survive as a hub. US really pissed off the two US Senators, especially Santorum. He 'really went to the mat' for US in the Senate, especially over the ALPA pensions and then US turned around and tried to put the screws to PA. Look for tough discussions between US and PA. US will get some but a lot of concessions. </font>

I have it on very good info that all PHL international ops will be based out of the A terminal. The only exception may be Canada flights.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ISP:

1) United Airlines is flying on borrowed time right now. Regardless of what people say about how they are cutting costs, etc., the people "in the know" at US believe UA will be gone within one year. It is the belief of management that with US's better financial positions after cost cuts, they will have the ability to take over many lucritive UA routes and also have a significant westward expansion. Top management is secretly predicting that in 3 years, US will be the #3 airline, behind AA & DL. No decisions on fleet plans yet.

</font>

USAirways will exceed the size of Northwest Airlines in three years after UA disappears? HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Does this "top management" not realize that NWA has some money, too, and that they might be interested in some of UA's carcass?

US bigger than NW in 3 years ... that's not a rumor, that's just insane!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JS:
USAirways will exceed the size of Northwest Airlines in three years after UA disappears? HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Does this "top management" not realize that NWA has some money, too, and that they might be interested in some of UA's carcass?

US bigger than NW in 3 years ... that's not a rumor, that's just insane!</font>

The actual rumor is that US management thinks that will be true. That is entirely possible. Not to say it will come to pass. Heck, US management should be thinking how they can improve the carrier. Some may or may not happen but they need goals, Im glad to see they have them although I do hope poor UA survives.

In three years NW will have a fleet of at least 520 mainline aircraft... US will have about half of that.

Then again, speaking of US/NW... let's see, US is getting rid of Pittsburgh, building up Philadelphia and converting Charlotte into a regional jet hub... and they're disposing of all their Boeing aircraft, building up their fleet of Airbus aircraft that happen to have the same engines as NW's... NW has drolled over the PHL market for many years, trying multiple times to acquire EA's hub and later all of the original ML... it was rumored in the fall that NW's $1 billion line of credit was issued so they could take a run at the Shuttle... and oh, yeah, STEPHEN WOLF is partially in charge of US Airways!!! Maybe he'll do to them what he did with RC and sell the airline to Northwest!!!

[This message has been edited by IndustrialPatent (edited 04-30-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ISP:
Siegel believes that PIT "has had their day" and that US must "de-hub" there. Regardless of whether PA comes through with the cost cuts, the operations there in the future will be minimal. It hasn't been widely reported, but this Friday a bank of 140 express flights are moving from PIT to PHL. Rendell will shy away from playing PHL vs. PIT, because he has realized that not accomidating and losing US at PHL would cripple the city.</font>

"Losing US Airways at PHL will cripple the city?" And there really is an easter bunny. OAs would swoop into PHL for the O&D traffic faster than you can say "Regional Jet" if US left.

If the management at US thinks that Rendell is thinking like this, they are in for a rather rude shock. Rendell, despite being from PHL, wants to re-elected. If he plays favorites, he won't get re-elected, because he'll be slaughtered by labor in Western PA.

We'll see if the express flights move. If they do, than Seigal is going to find PIT officials courting OAs into PIT before the leases even run out.....



------------------
Saving the world, one clue at a time.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ISP:
It hasn't been widely reported, but this Friday a bank of 140 express flights are moving from PIT to PHL. </font>

Haven't heard anything from US about this supposed move...although nothing surprises me anymore. Anywhere online where we can read about this? I would be interested in finding out which flights are being yanked this time. Thanks!

This month's Attache sure supports the focus on Philly position.

Combine that with the Charlotte theme in that same issue and you have to wonder if someone is sending PIT a message...

For those of us who really are US-focused, its worth noting that Denver is in a similar - albeit worse position in trying to keep their hub status.

Example: The PIT airport bond values are on the order of $700 million. US pays $60M/yr keeping them up. The DEN airport bonds are around $4 billion, and UA pays about $200 M / yr for those.

DEN officials are a bit worried about losing more activity at DEN, and being stuck with an even newer, even more costly hub airport than PIT.

Let's all agree on one thing - regardless of 'hub status' designations, PIT and DEN will look a lot different in 2 years than they do now.

I think it would be interesting to see an airline move and select DEN and PIT as hubs. They'd get 80% of west coast markets within an hour and 80% of east coast markets within an hour of their 2 hubs.
Sorry, no good suggestions on who might do this.

BTW - one peeve of mine is hearing Seigel talk trash about the PIT airport when it was his company (albeit not himself) that pushed to have certain amenities added, expanded size plans, etc - all of which drove up costs. And then signed a 30-year lease.

From today:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030502/dcf008_1.html

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Separately, US Airways begins operations at international Terminal A-West today. All US Airways flights to and from Europe and the Caribbean will operate from the new terminal.</font>



[This message has been edited by geo1005 (edited 05-02-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TomBascom:
This month's Attache sure supports the focus on Philly position.

Combine that with the Charlotte theme in that same issue and you have to wonder if someone is sending PIT a message...</font>

If Seigal wants to run a hub thru PHL, I hope I can sit in his vicinity and personally laugh myself silly when/if traffic ever picks back up.

That said, the proper message that PIT ought to return is a raised middle finger--but the politicians at the county/state level usually lack the stones. Perhaps Rendell is different; we'll see.

------------------
Saving the world, one clue at a time.

Here's my take on the situation:

1. Provided David Bronner was telling the truth about possibly financing a US buying spree, the airline is well-positioned to pick up the assets it needs to remain a viable standalone for the long-haul.

2. PIT is too far west for Northeast traffic, and too far east for Midwest connections. When coupled with the airport's high costs, it makes no sense whatsoever for US (or ANY other airline, for that matter) to maintain a meaningful hub or focus operation there.

I'm still a little perplexed by the PHL emphasis since the runway shortage is severe and there is NO possible solution. I still routinely wait in 10 or 20 plane lines to take off. Adding more flights will only make this airport worse, and it's already very bad.

Also, the PWM - PIT flights are going back to 733's this summer from ERJ's. I guess it's just for the tourist season in Maine, but it's still odd that U would upgrade aircraft on a minor route from the Hub they are trying to eliminate?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by veliger:
I'm still a little perplexed by the PHL emphasis since the runway shortage is severe and there is NO possible solution.</font>

There are two possible solutions:

1) Stop banking flights -- go to a continuous hub.

2) Build another runway -- they already did this with the express runway (you don't see as many RJs in that line as you used to...)

And as the attache article mentions -- they're working on plans. They might need to move 95 (a good idea anyway... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif ) or the river to do it but they are going to do something.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I still routinely wait in 10 or 20 plane lines to take off.</font>

That's hardly unique to PHL. That queue also moves a lot more reliably than it used to.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Adding more flights will only make this airport worse, and it's already very bad.</font>

There's room for more. It has been much more heavily loaded than it is now.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Also, the PWM - PIT flights are going back to 733's this summer from ERJ's. I guess it's just for the tourist season in Maine, but it's still odd that U would upgrade aircraft on a minor route from the Hub they are trying to eliminate?</font>

I don't think that they're "trying to eliminate" it -- yet. They're certainly thinking about scaling it way back but that isn't the same as actively shutting it down.

Runway improvements at PHL will take 10-20 YEARS to impliment.....don't hold your breath. If/when PAX #'s increase PHL will be even worse than it already is with the pending shift from PIT to PHL.

Regarding costs and efficiency, PIT and PHL are basically the same. Painting PIT as "too costly", thus necessitating a move to PHL doesn't make sense.

Geographically PIT is perfectly positioned to serve both the NE and MW markets. Sure, PHL and ORD are a few hundred miles closer to some of the cities to be served, but you don't have the congestion problems at PIT.

My middle finger is raised to US for what they are doing to PIT. I've got confidence in our local officials that PIT's strengths will be marketed to other carriers that will increase operations or begin anew.

Will you PIT guys finally get it through your head that just because theoretically the geography of PIT is more ideal than PHL doesn't mean that it should be the best hub. US is finally doing something that is smart. There is no need for hubs in PIT and PHL which are in the same state and only a few hundered miles away from each other. Now i never did forsee US wanting to ultimately leave PIT, i figured they would downsize to a RJ hub much like CLE is for CO. However in US' state they can not continue to operate profitably while operating hubs in such close proximity. This brings up a choice, which hub is the better hub and which offers the best long term future. The clear answer is PHL. Although PIT may be a great domestic connection point with little delays, PHL is the major gateway to Europe and the Caribbean. PIT right now has NO flights to Europe and only a handful to Europe. So tell me which hub will be the best in the long term?

As for PHL's runways, as many have stated before PHL's delay problem really escalated during '98-'00 when air travel was booming. Since then PHL has not seen nearly as many flights thus they are not operating at their peak in which only then were delays getting to be severe. It will probably take several years for PHL to reach traffic levels it once held 4 years ago. Now obviously new runways are needed, and will take a long time (10 years) however many of you are over playing the problem. I have been to PHL many times and have seen a take off line of less than 5 planes. I have also been to the airport during certain slow times with no take off line. So maybe its the airport's fault for allowing all the airlines to jam many flights into such a short period of time and maybe you guys just pick bad times to connect through PHL. However, i have never had to wait long in PHL to takeoff...disregarding the weather which you can't help anywhere.

When it comes down to favoring a hub...airlines don't care about a passenger having to wait maybe 30 min extra. They want to pick the city that gives them the most opportunity. PIT just doesn't do it. The O&D market is weak and barely supports US flts to the caribbean and Europe. My bet is PIT will only see some Low-Fare carriers come in...nothing like what US has done.


Now as for US Express transferring 140 flts to PHL. Any more info on that??? That seems a little drastic to me as that would put PHL as the number one hub by a lot. It would also almost cut PIT's operating in half.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by usairways85:
Will you PIT guys ..............almost cut PIT's operating in half. </font>

Your message is so fraught with inaccuracies and inconsistencies I'll not even attempt to help you with “the way things really are”.

US will be making a major mistake by moving operations from PIT to PHL, maybe not in the short term, but in the long term they will be assuring a disaster. When the airline industry recovers US won’t be able to expand, and the well know logistical problems at PHL will strangle their on-time service.

People in Eastern PA can/do drive to Newark, Baltimore and New York to avoid PHL, so the ample O/D market won’t save them when PHL is CHOKED with traffic and passengers.

US forgot that PIT and PHL were in the same state when they started the power play. The State of PA will put up $$ to help US, but it won’t put up a dime if it means the demise of PIT.

The thing that is driving me nuts here is some of the babble thats coming from the Crystal Palace...(note: I apologize for the length...and this is NOT an rant in PIT's defense, just trying to point out managements contradicting statements! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif)

Dave Castleveter: said that Pittsburgh is the airline's "worst-performing hub, the one that costs us the most and brings in the least revenue."

my rebuttal: it wasnt long ago that PIT was US's largest hub. see, Dave, what happens when you cut MORE flights from PIT than you cut from PHL and CLT is that you have LESS PEOPLE going through PIT. Less people=less revenue. duh. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

naturally, its really easy to point to the present-day load factors and show the world how PIT isnt profitable. But what they dont tell the public is that THEY CUT THE FLIGHTS! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif Why doesnt anybody else notice this? In the past year(ish), PIT has lost nonstop service to (get ready) Omaha, Flint, Cedar Rapids, Madison, Little Rock, Saginaw, Flint, Champaign, Kalamazoo, Charleston SC, and of course, our International destinations, which are "supposedly" getting re-instated for the summer. And those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head. The intriguing thing is, most of those destinations were "Express cities." Which makes you wonder why they want to make PIT into an RJ focus city if they couldn't hold on to that express service to begin with.

To be perfecly honest, I dont see much truth coming from Siegel these days. I think they purposely depleted the flights from PIT to prove their case that PIT wasn't profitable, and, in turn, get more cuts from the county government. If they had left the flights as is, the numbers would still be reasonable. But they woulnd't be able to run to the county crying "wolf."

Fact is, the $7.26 cost per passenger to transit PIT is LESS THAN THE $7.55 it costs to shove that same pax throguh PHL (according to California-based Leigh Fisher Associates)! Also, Fitch Ratings, a New York bond agency that on Wednesday downgraded county Airport Authority bonds, described the airport's cost for each boarding passenger as "reasonable." "All things considered, their [per passenger cost] is less than 10 bucks and it's not going up," James Gilliland, director of U.S. public finance for Fitch, said yesterday.

Here's a few more juicy tidbits from the Fitch Group:

US Airways has what is called a "residual" lease at Pittsburgh, in which all non-airline revenues, such as parking, rental cars and concessions, are first subtracted from operating and debt expenses. The balance is charged to the airlines.

"Basically, they're the very last ones to have rates raised on them so you can't really ask for much more in terms of rates and charges," Gilliland said. "[US Airways has] got a good thing right now as it is."

"They have the best financial lease they can get. We don't know what more they could ask from the airport without negatively affecting airport bondholders," Gilliland said. "They want free money but the airport bondholders are the ones on the hook."

The jig is up. US Airway's story no longer holds water in my opinion. The Daves need to get their story straight because no one should be buying this crap, least of all, the city and state government in the Pennsylvania towns. And the loyal frequent flyers in PA deserve MUCH better as well.

Ok...you say US Airways has a better long-term future in PIT than in PHL. So tell me, what benefits would PIT give to US as good asset in the long run? seriously. PHL gives US a major gateway to Europe and the Caribbean. The Caribbean network is probably one of the most profitable parts of the airline and one of the fastest growing airlines in the caribbean. I don't see PIT giving US much of this now nor in the long-term.

And if you read my response carefully, i never suggested that US should leave PIT completely. I personally feel that PIT should become a major RJ hub for US and there US will keep there assests in PIT incase they every see it viable to start new service from PIT in the long run. However, you can't tell me that two hubs within such proximity of each other is healthy. The only airline that does this is AA with ORD and STL. Not only is AA much larger than US and is able to maintain each hub with few problems but a few rumors have gone around that AA would just focus on domestic and RJ markets from STL and leave international markets to ORD.

We'll see what happens.

Let me point out one more thing. Many people don't avoid PHL because of the delays but rather because of the fares. What would the point be to travel up to EWR or LGA if you are just going to deal with the same delays there as you would in PHL.

Many people travel to BWI where they find many lowfares from Southwest as well as Airtran.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by usairways85:
Many people don't avoid PHL because of the delays but rather because of the fares. </font>

PIT is, or at least it was, the #1 airport in the country for "hub premiums."

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">...but a few rumors have gone around that AA would just focus on domestic and RJ markets from STL and leave international markets to ORD. </font>

These aren't rumors - it's already happening. The only international route remaining (other than those to/from Canada and seasonal resort markets like Cancun) is to LGW... I doubt it'll be cut as it's an anchoring (e.g. attracts profitable feed) route.

There's also rumors that if AA bolts on STL, US will move in.

[This message has been edited by IndustrialPatent (edited 05-04-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by HPTunco:
Your message is so fraught with inaccuracies and inconsistencies...</font>

Nothing personal but that's a 2-way street.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">US will be making a major mistake by moving operations from PIT to PHL, maybe not in the short term, but in the long term they will be assuring a disaster. When the airline industry recovers US won’t be able to expand, and the well know logistical problems at PHL will strangle their on-time service.</font>

Any "recovery", if it happens at all, is a long time in the future. The changes to the industry are permanent (read Siegel's speech in that other thread...) The influence of RJs has a substantial impact on future traffic patterns even with a recovery. The impact of low-cost carriers means that the whole hub & spoke system is going to be rethought -- that in turn means that the scheduling model and the capacity peaks that it drives (concentrating hordes of flights into just a few moments while most of the day the runways are empty) will change.

It is not a foregone conclusion that growth means the system will choke on its own delays.

Growth, if and when it comes, will not follow the old model.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">People in Eastern PA can/do drive to Newark, Baltimore and New York to avoid PHL, so the ample O/D market won’t save them when PHL is CHOKED with traffic and passengers.</font>

As has been pointed out that has everything to do with fares and squat to do with traffic. If growth comes it will be because the fare problem gets fixed.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">US forgot that PIT and PHL were in the same state when they started the power play. The State of PA will put up $$ to help US, but it won’t put up a dime if it means the demise of PIT.</font>

Don't bet on it. They knew perfectly well what the politics are. That kind of thinking is what got PIT here in the first place.

The stuff they're asking for at PIT needs to happen. Nobody will replace them if it doesn't. SWA isn't going to come rushing to the rescue -- PIT doesn't fit their model at all. The best that PIT could hope for along those lines would be to lure ATA or someone like that in as a hub but that seems unlikely -- they don't need the distraction and the benefits aren't there.

Yes, it sucks to be PIT. Yes, sticking a finger in US' eye would feel good for a minute or two. But in the long run PIT will be better off if they find a way to accomodate this while leveraging it to make the local market competitive -- trade the concessions and improvements for an end to Fortress Hub status.

the only non-stop mainline service from PIT will be to about 8-9 major cities (LGA,BOS,DCA,PHL,CLT,ALT,MCO possibly LAX and SFO)

MIA, TPA, DFW, IAH, DEN, and FLL are not going to loose mainline service.

You sure about that? As of 5/7, MIA-PIT is down to 1 roundtrip daily.

ISP...do you have any info on any changes of flights from PIT to PHL that you rumored about at the beginning of the post? i have continued to look at daily arrivals in PHL everyday and the only thing i have noticed over the past couple of weeks is that PHL has about 10 more Mesa US Airways Express flights then it did before.

As a little side note...PHL also looses a MIA flights in June. Now it's 2x733's and 2x757's, in June it will be 2x733's and 1x734. Also PHL-MCO will gain two flights in June up to 9 dailies. Also PIT-FLL will be down to 2 daily in June, TPA will be up to 4, DFW, IAH, and DEN will all remain at 3 daily

Also something interesting currently US has 6 daily flights from PHL-ATL with 733's. In June it will stay at 6 daily flights from PHL-ATL but on the return trip there will be 2 fligths with 733's and the other 4 will be with ERJ's and CRJ's. RJ's have never flown this route before so this could be part of some Express expansion at PHL

us85:

In reference to the bank of flights being moved, this was something that I was told by the agent at the F club in PHL. Once again, he told me that US was concerned about the traffic there. He told me that on most days, the drawer in the bar is between $50-$60 per day. Of course you aren't going to move a hub to keep a club open, but he said this is just one of many reasons US wants to really bring F up to capacity. As opposed to my other comments about Siegel's desire to have the ultimate demise of PIT and US becoming the #3 airline in a few years, this is actually something that I don't know if it is 100% true - it could just be a US employee talking the talk, so to speak, especially since he works in F. One thing you can't do is check the online timetable for verification of flights - they do not update it regularly. For example, PIT-ABE lists 6 flights for June 9, but in reality, there will only be four. Although the website says that the PDF timetables are unavailable, you can still access it to see. The link is http://www.usairways.com/travel/timetable/timetable_may.pdf

[This message has been edited by ISP (edited 05-04-2003).]

off topic...

ISP's last post mentioned the .pdf timetables on the website. As long as I can remember, US Airways's timetables have NEVER shown the aircraft type. I think that this is odd, especially they are now available online and its not like adding the EQP code would significantly increase cost of an ELECTRONIC timetable! I know you can view the A/C type online, but this isn't an option if you want to download the .pdf to you palm pilot or whatever.

That's it...just needed a rant. comments welcome! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ISP:
Rendell will shy away from playing PHL vs. PIT, because he has realized that not accomidating and losing US at PHL would cripple the city.
</font>

US needs PHL much more than PHL needs US. PHL is one of the biggest O/D markets in the country, with considerable business traffic. AA or DL or WN would gladly snap up gates here if US ever pulled out, something that is unlikely to happen.

O/D traffic is the reason US wants to downgauge PIT as opposed to PHL. Distributing the same connecting traffic through PHL and PIT in uneconomical.

PHL has operational issues as a hub, but the congestion is worth having a hub at such a huge metro area.

So the movement of the bank of express flights from PIT to PHL is something that will most likely happen, as opposed to the other things you mentioned which are just rumors spreading throughout the company?

I am curious about something. Why do those of you that do not live in the Pgh area really care what happens to PIT? Between this board and USAviation there is a lot of "heated" discussion from people who will not have any effect on their mode of transportation. If you don't live here you really don't see how many flights have been cut or the less frequency to certain destinations. Sometimes it is not cost and time effective to fly on US now.

PineyBob seems to be the most vocal in his support for US and what they are attempting to do to PIT. I still would like to know why. For me if US downsizes more or totally leaves the PIT airport it's no big deal. I have already started flying the other airlines that service PIT. But what I do worry about is the lack of service, frequency and choices that PIT lacks because of US and it's strangle hold here.

If the PIT PAX were smart they would be flying the other airlines more too. This would help to increase the # of flights out of here by those other airlines. Look what HP has already done by increasing it's flights to 3 times a day out of PIT. I'd be curious to see the load factor of HP vs US on the PIT to PHX routes. It must have been good or HP wouldn't have increased it's service.

Any other US1's starting to fly the other airlines out of PIT more because your schedule has been affected by the flight cuts or infrequency? And US2's and US3's, let's not forget them too.




[This message has been edited by trvlr64 (edited 05-04-2003).]

I will admit, I don't live in PIT and thus I am not part of O/D traffic. However, I used to connect there often. I think it is an exceptional airport, and I am sad to see what is happening. I would connect there anyday, whether it be to sit in the nice club, have a quick meal at hotlicks, or browse an airmall shop (which I hear are closing at the rate of about 1 a day). I haven't connected in PIT in over 2 months, and that is just because of my schedule needs and the flights US has cut. This wednesday I may be on US 1150 FLL-PIT if my meeting runs late and I don't get on my original flight (1240) through PHL. To those people who live in PIT, I wish them the absolute best of luck, especially the US employees based there. This company has the best employees of any airline. So many of us on this board say that because US a lot of the time is the only airline we fly, but I truly believe that. I thought Bob Levy really hit the nail on the head.

In terms of me starting this post to discuss Siegel's feeling on PIT, I think he really reinforced that publicly later in the week at the speech he gave. I myself am not taking sides like so many others, just simply reporting what I hear.

[This message has been edited by ISP (edited 05-04-2003).]

You Wrote:
"There are two possible solutions:

2) Build another runway -- they already did this with the express runway (you don't see as many RJs in that line as you used to...)"

I strongly disagree. That express runway gets very little use due to ATC issues, and the problem is getting worse since the T-Props could use the N-S runway, which is too short for the RJ's.

"And as the attache article mentions -- they're working on plans. They might need to move 95 (a good idea anyway... ) or the river to do it but they are going to do something."

If you really think PHL can add another usable runway for real planes, I'd like to sell you the Platte Bridge in the process. The cost of adding even one runway at PHL would be astronomical, and they need 2 more, not 1. This is a two real runway airport forever, and the contrast with PIT is stark. PIT is the BEST connecting hub in the US for congestion, while PHL is one of the five worst. The only Hub I use enough to definitively state as being worse than PHL is LGA.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by veliger:
You Wrote:
"There are two possible solutions:

2) Build another runway -- they already did this with the express runway (you don't see as many RJs in that line as you used to...)"

I strongly disagree. That express runway gets very little use due to ATC issues, and the problem is getting worse since the T-Props could use the N-S runway, which is too short for the RJ's.

"And as the attache article mentions -- they're working on plans. They might need to move 95 (a good idea anyway... ) or the river to do it but they are going to do something."

If you really think PHL can add another usable runway for real planes, I'd like to sell you the Platte Bridge in the process. The cost of adding even one runway at PHL would be astronomical, and they need 2 more, not 1. This is a two real runway airport forever, and the contrast with PIT is stark. PIT is the BEST connecting hub in the US for congestion, while PHL is one of the five worst. The only Hub I use enough to definitively state as being worse than PHL is LGA.

</font>

For starters, LGA isn't a hub. What's the term they like to use... focus city. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

You are right in that PHL is congested and there is no room to put another runway. PHL's problem isn't runways. Think about EWR and its 2 runways and NYC ATC. If CO can handle a hub there, why can't US at PHL.

The issue is terminal configuration and gates. B and C are too close. Moving some international flights to A-west will help but not by much. I am disappointed that AA is expanding in A. If I were US, I'd have tried to do a deal where I swapped my 16 C gates with AA and take over all 12 gates in A.

Of course, this is a theoretical exercise. AA would have to agree to it.

[This message has been edited by pk45cu (edited 05-05-2003).]

As for the PHL runways i do agree the new commuter runway is not used nearly as much as it should however recently i have begun to see some more aircraft using it. One major problem with that runway is it is to short for RJ's.

PHL is in the midst of devising plans for a major runway change that will take 10-15 years. All options envolve extending both commuter runways to allow for RJ's to easily use. Part of one of the plans is to build a runway partly in the Delaware River and have i think 3 main runways and be able to do parallel landings. Another option is to creat parallel runways diagonally across the existings runways starting around the old international terminal towards the UPS facility. Either way there is massive construction needed.

where did you here AA will get more gates in Terminal A. Currently they have 6 but i didn't think they wanted more.

AA lost one domestic gate in Terminal A due to construction of A West. They might have also lost another gate as well, but now that construction is done, they might be getting another gate back now that most US int'l flights have moved to the newer gates.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by trvlr64:
I am curious about something. Why do those of you that do not live in the Pgh area really care what happens to PIT?</font>

1) I'd like to see it thrive -- there are lots of nice things about the PIT airport.

2) But there have been some outlandish claims made about how it compares to PHL. I connect through both fairly often and the negatives that some people heap on PHL are simply false.

3) US is thinking dark thoughts about PIT. Burying heads in the sand won't stop that. Frankly I think that's exactly how the county landed where it is.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by trvlr64:
Any other US1's starting to fly the other airlines out of PIT more because your schedule has been affected by the flight cuts or infrequency? And US2's and US3's, let's not forget them too.</font>

When I need to pay an arm and a leg to get to Chicago for the day, AA gets my business.

When I want to sit upfront and cockroach a $178 fare to the west coast, US gets my business.

I guess Dave wants the first kind of business. After the B. Ben moves of last year, and the fast one they are trying to lay on PIT, I'd give US a profitable fare when I see a snowball in hades.


------------------
Saving the world, one clue at a time.

I dont have much connection to PIT but I disagree about those that defend PHL. First, except for adding miles (not a bad thing http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif ) it isnt a good connection for me. Lets say Im going NY to any points west, connecting in PHL is more time consuming than PIT. Secondly, I have had absolutely horrible experience with PHL. Sitting on runways, waiting for buses etc. It is a dreadful airport in my opinion. Connections there are the worst I have seen. Again, my opinion but if I have to connect through PHL, I will probably stop flying US. I will connect in Charlotte, which is even more out of my way rather than PHL if I can arrange it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by GadgetFreak:
I dont have much connection to PIT but I disagree about those that defend PHL. First, except for adding miles (not a bad thing http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif ) it isnt a good connection for me. Lets say Im going NY to any points west, connecting in PHL is more time consuming than PIT. Secondly, I have had absolutely horrible experience with PHL. Sitting on runways, waiting for buses etc. It is a dreadful airport in my opinion. Connections there are the worst I have seen. Again, my opinion but if I have to connect through PHL, I will probably stop flying US. I will connect in Charlotte, which is even more out of my way rather than PHL if I can arrange it.</font>

Gadget-

youre not implying its actually 'worth money' to you to connect through PIT instead of PHL, are you?

Because our Dear Chairman just said the other day that there is not a single customer who is willing to pay more to connect through PIT. I just assumed he couldnt be wrong about that!

Will I pay more and/or less to connect thru PIT vs. PHL? Personally, I don't give a rat's .... The reality is that PIT does not have the O&D to support the large number of flights in/out of it's airport. The other fact is that there is not enough passenger traffic right now to warrant the need for TWO hubs in the state of Pennsylvania. PHL is the obvious choice when it comes to O&D traffic in PA. IF PIT is such a hot spot, then why do BA, LH, AF all fly to PHL and not PIT? O&D. That's why.

Now us local U.S.A. east-coasters and us long-time US Airways passengers know that PIT is a good town and that the PIT airport is a great facility, but just because you have a better Mrs. Field's Cookie Shop, shorter waits on the runways for the RJ's and a less crowded US Airways Club is no reason to choose one hub over the other. From a profit standpoint, traffic drives this bus and PHL will win that race very time. And as much as I respect CluebyFour's position, there are just not enough people with the same passion for airlines in PIT to make a difference.

nicely said geo1005. I am not putting down the efficientcy of the PIT hub as the facility is laid out much better than PHL and the delays are less than the delays in PHL...but when it finally comes down to it, PHL is just the better hub.

Agreed, but neither of you addressed the point I was making (and I try not to be a US apologist - I would choose one over the other, PHL, at this point if I were them too).

The fact is that there are passengers who would pay more to connect through PIT.

There just isnt anyone in management who is willing to pay more to run it.

BTW, I am trying to book a PIT-BOS for 5/19-21, and of course getting reamed on prices. One option that came up was PIT-MDT (Harrisburg) - PHL with a 4.5 hour layover.

Made me think of a solution that would make everyone (un)happy: compromise and build an entirely new $2 billion US Int'l hub airport in Harrisburg. ;-)

[This message has been edited by hscottm (edited 05-07-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hscottm:
Gadget-

youre not implying its actually 'worth money' to you to connect through PIT instead of PHL, are you?

Because our Dear Chairman just said the other day that there is not a single customer who is willing to pay more to connect through PIT. I just assumed he couldnt be wrong about that!</font>

If I am reading things right it is $6 more or something like that? I would pay that in a nanosecond. Twice that easy to avoid PHL. Would I pay $100, probably not, but if I have to go through PHL to get broadly competative fares on US, Im on another carrier anyway.

My wife just finished a RT thru PIT and told me that all her RJ connections were on the A concourse. Of course, the club on A is still closed. Is this new?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BillMorrow:
My wife just finished a RT thru PIT and told me that all her RJ connections were on the A concourse. Of course, the club on A is still closed. Is this new? </font>

It's been that way for more than a year.

Thanks,

Normally only fly mainline if I can help it.