marcelin

I have a completely different impression of Amtrak's Dining Car product. It is true that there are excellent people here and there, but in general, I encounter lousy food and lousy service in dining cars.

In places like D.C. and Chicago, where there are food choices in stations and also nearby, I usually eat before boaring.

These look like Coast Starlight menus. I have never seen such a large variety of dishes actually available on the other long-distance routes, and I've covered most of them. These menus also leave out things like grits for breakfast; broccoli stems as a vegetable accompaniment at dinner; or the tasty microwave entrees offered when Amtrak unexpectedly substitutes a Dinette for a Dining Car. These are all real experiences I've had.

I don't want to raise the hopes of first-time "guests". I'd rather that they be surprised by an unusually good experience.

Paul Marcelin-Sampson
Santa Cruz, California

kspeed55

My wife and I traveled on the City of New Orleans in March of 2004. We had a room and ate in the dining car. We rated the food very good to excellent and the service likewise. Our waiter on the southbound trip was the best we have had anywhere including a $100.00 meal last month in a 4 star/4 diamond restaurant.

AlanB

I'm sorry to hear that, and you are of course entitled to your opinion.

I, on the other hand, have almost always received good food in the dining car. Additionally, I have spoken with many people both railfans and non, and almost all have found the food acceptable.

I can assure you that they were not used solely on the Coast Starlight. The three menus at my link were used on a rolling basis on all trains, to avoid having someone traveling coast to coast seeing the same exact food for all meals.

I ate off of those menus twice on the Lake Shore, once on the Chief, and once on the Crescent, prior to their having been replaced with a new set of menus a few months ago. I can also direct you to dozens of trip reports by railfans, where they too ate off of those menus.

In fact one can still view Amtrak's press release announcing those menus when they were new. It clearly states that those menus were for all of Amtrak's long distance trains. The only exception, not noted, was the Autotrain that has its own unique menu.

marcelin

Amtrak's Dining Car product is geared to the average American consumer, and it may satisfy that consumer in some cases.* However, when Amtrak and its fans portray the Dining Car as a first class restaurant, it's time to step in with a reality check.

I am merely countering exaggerations like "the best we have had anywhere including a $100.00 meal last month in a 4 star/4 diamond restaurant" and "not to be missed".

Here is a concrete example from the Coast Starlight, an Amtrak train that I strongly support, and that has higher food service standards than any other long-distance train in the system. This example is from 2002.

"Chicken Duxelle en Croute" was one of the dinner choices. The menu description was mouthwatering, even to a vegeterian like me. My partner wanted to try this dish, and asked me how to pronounce "duxelle en croute", because I speak French. We practised a few times before the waitress arrived.

The waitress was gruff, announcing her presence with a "whaddya want?". No greeting, no smile, no comments about tonight's menu. Being a courteous person, I greeted her and smiled. No response. My partner ordered "Chicken Duxelle en Croute", his pronunciation perfect. The waitress said, "huh?" My partner repeated himself. Again, "huh?" Finally, my partner opened the menu and pointed. The waitress laughed, "Oh, you want the chicken!" This $15 - $20 choice (we were not Sleeping Car passengers this time, because it was a daytime journey) now seemed much less enticing.

When the famous "Chicken Duxelle en Croute" arrived, it was not as described. It was an ordinary section of roast chicken! There was no "croute" (crust) and there was a bland brown gravy in place of "duxelle" (finely chopped mushrooms cooked in white wine and butter).

How can anyone equate this experience -- in Amtrak's finest Dining Car -- with a first class restaurant? (And I could cite other sad Dining Car examples from the California Zephyr, the Sunset Limited, the Capitol Limited, and the Silver Service trains.)

On the question of menus, notice that I was talking about the dishes "actually available". The basic structure of Dining Car menus remains: one beef dish, one chicken dish, one fish and/or pasta dish. The choice in each category may not match what is listed in the menu. One category may also not be available on a particular evening. Pity me when it's the vegeterian category, and I have to appeal to the Dining Car Steward because the only thing I can eat is a combination of side dishes (rice, potatoes, vegetable), and the waiter will not permit it, even though I am a Sleeping Car passenger, so there is no question of how to price my selection.

To our first-time Amtrak "guests", please don't expect miracles in the Dining Car!

Paul Marcelin-Sampson
Santa Cruz, California

* I don't even think that the Dining Car succeeds in its mission of satisfying the average American consumer. Considering the geography of the long-distance network; local tastes outside the citified West Cost and Northeast regions; and the appeal of trains to parents with children; I think a McDonald's franchise really would be better. Everyone loves McDonald's, and you can't argue with the market share, or the financial results, of the nation's biggest restaurant chain. Even as a vegetarian, I'd take some fries, a boxed apple pie, an orange juice with a foil top, and a salad-in-a-cup over pasta with burned cheese, the standard non-Starlight vegeterian dinner selection (I've done two North America Rail Pass trips and frankly, that dish gets old after a month. Yuck! At least McDonald's is fun. And don't get me started on Chateau Amtrak wine served in plastic cups -- not even plastic goblets -- in Lounge Cars. Either you do something right or you don't do it at all.)

GoAmtrak

Paul, that's quite unfortunate. When I took train 11 in February 2002 for the very last time before long-distance trains lost their individual menus, I had the Chicken Duxelle en Croute. Not only was it as described, it remains to this day the best dining car meal I have ever had on Amtrak! Admittedly, the quality of the food usually compares to Denny's, but this meal was exceptional. The mushroom wine sauce was exquisite, the crust was warm and flakey, and the chicken melted like butter. I do not exaggerate when I say that the 200 or so other Amtrak meals I've eaten do not even remotely compare.

I just had one of the infamous Chef Mario San Joaquin meals, the Cheese Tortellini. It was like a Stouffer's dinner, quite bland, but edible. The salad was fresh and flavorful, the roll was average, and the veggies were tasteless. A marginal value for $8.50.

On the whole, the 5 cycles of national long-distance menus Amtrak now uses is satisfactory. It's a dramatic improvement from the awful 2002-2003 national menu, and a step up in terms of variety from the 3 cycles introduced in 2003. I don't mind if coach passengers find it to be too expensive, as dining cars tend to be heavily patronized anyway, especially on a Coast Starlight with 3 sleepers and 5 coaches. The prices are reasonable for what one recieves. The menus could be improved by expanding the spices and methods of preparation available to the chefs, and returning to more regional menus. This will soon happen when the Empire Builder relaunches with all newly-reconditioned Superliners and amenities.

NovaEngr

In my opinion, the dining service on Amtrak is a significant missed opportunity. Here is an area where rail potentially can shine. From fresh-cooked preparation to sit-down table service with a view, rail can offer meal service in a way that air could never match. The café should be a pleasant place for an afternoon snack or a relaxing late night drink. The logistics of a train make possible a first-rate dining and snack and beverage experience.

But what Amtrak delivers is too often Denny’s with an attitude. The wildly variable food quality and service delivery on Amtrak is the stuff of legend. Go to McDonalds or the Olive Garden and you know exactly what to expect, and the food and service is delivered consisitantly coast to coast. Exceptions are rare. Go into an Amtrak dining car and it is a crap shoot (no pun intended). Anything can happen.

Amtrak long ago should have outsourced all food service from supply and pre-prep (which is already outsourced) to the onboard preparation and service. Get a first-rate catering firm, put tough QC clauses in the contract, and let them do their thing. IMHO, you would get much better and much more consistent delivery of food service and would probably save money to boot.

Let Amtrak run the trains and let food people do the food.

marcelin

Thank you. You've expressed, in a few sentences, something I don't think I was successful in expressing over several posts.

How about Chef Mario? [Bad joke aimed at Amtrak "guests" in California. Sorry, I couldn't resist!]

The sordid and very unappetizing history of health violations in Amtrak food service operations is also worth mentioning. I discovered this in a well-known book about Amtrak (the one that compares the running times of US and Third World trains, finding Amtrak to be slower in each case). Apparently, trains were being taken out of service on the line, mice roaming the food service cars. This is a thing of the past, but it remains a good example of what happens when you let an entity operate free of market pressures or clear and strict regulatory oversight. Basically, Amtrak doesn't have to care, because the money (our money) keeps flowing.

Paul Marcelin-Sampson
Santa Cruz, California, USA

kspeed55

{Quote} "I am merely countering exaggerations like "the best we have had anywhere including a $100.00 meal last month in a 4 star/4 diamond restaurant""

My wife and I have eaten out thousands of time and never thought we had a waiter as good. But maybe we have had all lousy ones before or maybe we are just very stupid.

marcelin

Hi, kspeed55. No offense was meant. I classified two statements about the Dining Car as exaggerations, without naming the people who made the statements. I classified the statements as exaggerations because they borrow -- intentionally or unintentionally -- from the language of restaurant ratings. Apples-to-oranges comparisons were being made.

In this country, AAA diamonds are a norm, a standard of quality, something consistent that consumers can count on. Amtrak's Dining Car product does not have any AAA diamonds, as far as I can tell.

The other person's statement, "not to be missed", actually evokes a Michelin Guide category, recognized throughout the world. "Mérite le détour" means, literally, "worth the detour" or "worth the trip", and "not to be missed" is a precise idiomatic translation. Again, Amtrak's Dining Car product isn't rated by Michelin, as far as I can tell.

It doesn't make sense to equate an Amtrak Dining Car with a fine restaurant. It ain't.

If we want to encourage others to ride the train, there has to be room for frank discussion -- for the sharing of positive as well as negative experiences. If Amtrak cared, or rather, if it had to care, it would be monitoring these discussions and improving the consistency and quality of its Dining Car product. Complaint would produce a positive outcome. In the meantime, I think it's crucial not to raise people's hopes and risk having the people come back disappointed, and our credibility as reviewers and/or train supporters, damaged.

Paul Marcelin-Sampson
Santa Cruz, California, USA

goldcupmom

Ok, since I started this thread on a totally different note, I feel compelled to add my 2c worth.

As I see it, we are all entitled to our opinions, formed by our life experiences.

I have dined at many world class restaurants in many nations. Stupid I may be, but I've never heard of the Michelin guide, nor, I would guess, have most Americans. Most choose restaurants based on personal food preferences and the recommendations of others I would imagine. I have eaten at world class restaurants that I would not return to for various reasons, cost not being one of them.

While the food on Amtrak is of limited variety, and the ability to prepare in a variety of ways is limited due to space constraints, I have never found it to be totally intolerable. Quite the opposite. Would I take an Amtrak trip just for the food? No, but would I eat food court/fast food in lieu of eating in the dining car? No. Just as I do not travel to Europe just to fly over the ocean on a particular carrier, I don't travel Amtrak just for food. Similar to staying in a hotel that offers me an executive level breakfast with my room, Amtrak provides 3 meals a day with my room. It may not always be what I want, but it is adequate to fill my needs.

I believe that those who ride Amtrak are doing so for the train experience and the pleasures of rail travel. The majority of the riders would likely be very angry if food were not provided at all on board.....Harvey House type stops just don't exist anymore.

I believe that over the last 5 - 7 years the food has been more variable. Having lived most of my life in beef country, I can honestly say we've had some of the best steaks ever on the SWC. They were very thick. Last time they were thin. Oh well, we adjusted. Yes, the food varies, but unless you have the same chef preparing everything it will.

As to the cost for coach riders, liken it to a theme park. There isn't anywhere else to go for food, so you pay the price. A cold hot dog and warm soda for $10 isn't exactly a bargain. Even the airline 'snack' boxes are being sold for much more than value and the few of those I've had were very difficult to consume.

Bottom line, enjoy Amtrak for what it offers. A wonderfully relaxing ride where you can see the scenery - good, bad and ugly. If you feel the need to eat, try the dining car, if you don't like it, don't eat it again - go hungry , go get a white castle burger in the cafe car, or grab a bunch of chips and soda from the next vending machine you find. You have the choice.

timbeaux

First of all, let me thank the many folks who post on the FlyerTalk AGR forum. I've been reading it for about year now and it is great.

Second of all, I am new to train travel. On an odd thought, I took the City of New Orleans from Memphis to New Orleans for a conference in June 2004. I could have just as easily flown and it would have been much faster, as my train hit a stalled car at a rural crossing just north of the Mississippi/Louisana border. No one was hurt in the accident, but it did jolt me out of my slumber and I became a little frustrated because there was no cell service with which to notify the rest of my party that had flown I would be delayed several hours.

Nevertheless, I'm hooked on it now and anytime I'm travelling north or south from Memphis, I'll be on a train. In fact, going from Memphis to Chicage is wonderful on the train since I get to board at 10:00 p.m., crawl into a sleeper bed, wake up in the morning, shower, eat breakfast, and walk out of Chicago Union Station ready for the day at 9:00 a.m.

Enough of that... Now to my thought on the Amtrak dining car experiences I had on the City of New Orleans the past year or so. I would not classify the food as fancy restaruant fare nor fast food generic. Breakfast is better than McDonalds and on par with Perkins. Whether one agrees with my ratings doesn't matter.

What I want to pass along is that the experience of eating a meal at a sit-down table with an actual cloth table cover and napkins all while zipping along the way is more important that having a gourmet meal. How does this compare to other forms of meals served on mass transportation systems? I've never had an airline meal, even in first class, that compares to what I've eaten on Amtrak. Fast food in my car driving down the interstate? Nah, it is better on Amtrak.

Another thing that I thought was going to really bother me at first but that I ended up liking is sharing tables with total strangers. I've had some of the most intersting converations with table partners while in the Amtrak diner car. I'm sure I'll end up with one someday that I just wish would disappear, but not yet.

Sure, I've experienced wait staff quality that ranged from "I'm going to give the person the benefit of doubt and assume this is just a bad day" to "Gee, thanks for going out of your way to make my meal really great."

All in all, it justs add to the "experience" of the trip for me.

railroadtycoon

My dining experience has been excellent with Amtrak, way better than airline food (as one question alluded to), if *I* were to say its better than some restaurants I've eaten at, and for what they can cook up in a moving train, its pretty good. I've found most Amtrak employees to be very friendly and accomodating. As the last poster pointed out as well, its not only the food but the experience.

AlanB

Sorry, but wrong again.

First, you'll note that my original post said In My Humble Opinion. I didn't say that it was Michelin's opinion or anyone else’s either.

Secondly, I wasn't even aware that Michelin even makes travel guides, much less that they coined that phrase. I truly believe that having dinner (or even breakfast or lunch) in the diner car is something unique and not just because I happen to think the food is something special. As another posted also noted, there is something special to eating a meal while rolling along at 70 miles an hour.

Finally, I was very careful not to compare Amtrak's meals to any restaurant. If you look at my original post, the only comparison that I made to a restaurant was that fact that much depends on the cook.

I was neither misleading, nor was I exaggerating anything. I did tell the person that asked the question, that Amtrak was better than anything I've ever had on an airplane, but that was it. And they asked for the comparison to airline food. Besides, I'm pretty sure that if I went over to the airline board, I'd find plenty who don't like the airline food. That assumes that they even get any these days.

Sadly, IMHO your response was totally the opposite. You condemned Amtrak's food overwhelmingly, right from the start. My response was neither hugely positive nor hugely negative. I was right down the center with my review.

I didn't. But even if one were to equate Amtrak's dining cars to a Denny's as another poster did, that IMHO is still better than McDonalds. You however have elevated a McDonalds above both an Amtrak dining car and a Denny's. Additionally I've been on 15 long distance Amtrak trains in the last 2 years, and all except one met with my expectations. And I'm pretty fussy about where and what I eat, as is my wife.

In fact neither of us would normally dine in a Denny's, unless there was no other choice. We strive for much better than that and in NY City, that's pretty easy to do. No we don't typically dine at the Water Club or Tavern on the Green, and places like that, although we have indeed dined in those places. We typically take one step down from that when we go out to eat, usually 2 to 3 times a week.

I'm only adding the above knowledge of what I do like, in light of your highly negative posts. So the fact that I'm typically satisfied by Amtrak is saying a lot.

I do however realize that being a vegetarian does greatly limit your choices, and that could have some impact on your experiences. I myself typically stick to fish, chicken, and pasta dishes so that does open up a few more choices for me.

I was frank, you seemed however to choose to ignore that. Additionally I'll add that besides here, I post at three different train BB's. I've never had anyone come back and tell me that I had raised their expectations beyond what they got.

I have had a few come back and thank me for the info that I've provided, but none have ever come back to complain about my advice. And anyone who reads the Flyertalk boards knows very well that complaints out number compliments.

thebordcu

We just returned from a trip to Florida and took Train 97 down and 98 back up in sleeper car (Trenton to Fort Lauderdale).

Here is the scoop on the meals:

On way down:
Dinner:Choice of serving times 5:15, 6:30 or 8pm (We chose the 8pm).
Breakfast: Served from 6:30-9am (Train was 2 hours late getting into Jacksonville).
Lunch Served from about 11:30 to 2 (as we later found out they served lunch until 4 but no announcement was made).
There was not dinner served even though the train was over 3 hours late and didn't get into Ft Lauerdale until 7:45 and I am guessing Miami until close to 9.

Northbound: Lunch was served as soon as we boarded (11:30 until 2 or so).
Dinner: Reservations offered for 5, 6:30 and 8:15
Breakfast: 6:30-10 (We were told the stop time for Breakfast depends on when the train arrived in Washington. Since we were well over 2 hours late they served to 10)
Lunch: Abbreviated lunch from 12-1:30. since the train was in total about 2:45 minutes late to Trenton. Interesting note that they did not change engines on this train until Philly.

Meals overall were pretty good. Only long haul was the way down since no dinner was served.

Have a great trip!

AlanB

That's due to the cancellation of Acela Express service. Without those 20 trains and their engines, coupled with all the replacement Metroliners, Amtrak is now extremely short of electric engines. By changing from diesel to electric on long distance trains at Philly, it frees up a couple of electric engines for use on the corridor services.